MILITARY MANCEUVRES ACT, 1897 (ORDER IN COUNCIL). (Hansard, 17 May 1909)

§ Mr. E. H. CARLILE
I do not want to delay the right hon. Gentleman in getting his draft Order in Council, but there are one or two questions which I addressed to the right hon. Gentleman the other day to which I should be glad to get a reply. They had reference mainly to the mode proposed for dealing with compensation for damages to crops and hedges, the accidental firing of hedges, and things of that sort during the course of the manœuvres; and I also wished to learn something of the steps to be taken for the protection of life and limb from motor-car accidents within the area and during the progress of the manœuvres. It may be within the knowledge of the House that during the manœuvres messages are constantly carried from the general officers commanding the different divisions or units of troops that may be scattered over the line of country. These messages, in the old days, were carried by 176 mounted officers, and are now carried largely over the large areas in which the right hon. Gentleman proposes to operate in motor-cars. I know that in the old days we were never limited in speed except by the powers of the horses we were riding. We always carried these messages as fast as we could. The tendency will be for these motor-cars to do exactly the same. The temptation will be almost irresistible. Nevertheless, we have to remember that these messages will be carried by motorcars during the day time, when there will be a considerable amount of traffic along the roads in this very large area. Therefore it will be necessary to take efficient steps to secure some reasonable limit of speed—something approximating to the ordinary legal speed—along these roads during the manœuvres. Then with regard to billeting, I do not know whether it is proposed to have all the troops under canvas and the horses picketed, or whether it is proposed to billet the men to any extent, and, if so, has the right hon. Gentleman any intention of adopting the powers given to him with the Army (Annual) Bill in connection with billeting? I gather that the right hon. Gentleman does not propose to billet troops in private houses, so that if any billeting is done it will be done in licensed premises. I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to answer these questions.

§ The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. F. D. Acland)
The reply to the hon. Member's questions is as follows. The object of having this Order in Council made under the Military Manœuvres Act is to set up the Military Manœuvres Commission, and that would be set up to-morrow but for the military manoeuvre adopted by the hon. Member on Thursday night. The draft Order in Council has to lie for thirty days in both Houses of Parliament, and not until that time is completed can we reach this stage.

§ Mr. CARLILE
The hon. Gentleman will excuse me for interrupting him, but 1 should like to point out that the draft Order was introduced on 16th February, and surely if any attention had been given to the matter there would have been ample time for it to lie upon the Table of the House of Lords, and also upon our own Table.

§ Mr. ACLAND
The thirty days in the House of Lords did not finish until Thursday in last week.

§ Mr. CARLILE
Not since February 16?

§ Mr. ACLAND
The hon. Member forgets that the House of Lords does not sit so often as this House. The draft Order was laid, notice had been given to every parish council, and no objection has been taken to the draft Order, and now we are asking the House to allow the draft Order to be made into a full order. That has unfortunately been postponed from the Council held to-day until the next Council. The replies to the points raised by the hon. Member are these: It is the duty of the Military Manœuvres Commission, when formed—as it will be when the Order is made—to go into the questions as to what roads may be used, as to what land may be used, as to what water supply may be used, and to map out the area into parts which may or may not be used for the purposes of the manœuvres. They will also have to go into the question of compensation as set out in clause 5 of the Military Manœvres Act. There is no intention of putting into force. the new powers with regard to billeting under the new Army (Annual) Act. Those powers were only conferred for the purpose of calling out the Territorial Force for training in the time of emergency. They will not be used in any way for these manœuvres for the Regular. troops. As regards motor-cars, the small experience I have had of such manœuvres shows that the difficulty with regard to them arises from the private cars which throng the scene of these manœuvres, and not from any cars which are being officially used by the officers in command. I can assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that so far as those cars are concerned, which are used for sending messages and so on, they have to conform to the ordinary law of the land in exactly the same way as private cars. No exemption is claimed for or given to them under the Military Manœuvres Act or any other Act. Therefore, it is to be hoped that there will be no undue interference with the ordinary avocations of those who use the roads.

§ Mr. CARLILE
There will be, unless you take efficient steps to prevent it.

§ Mr. ACLAND
The hon. Member says there will be unless we take sufficient steps.

§ Mr. ACLAND
There is no necessity for us to take special steps, because all motor cars are under exactly the same law—namely, the ordinary law, no special 178 exemption being claimed on their account at all.

§ Sir ROBERT HOBART
I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman a question which, I think, is germane to this subject. He proposes to put into force the Military Manœuvres Act for the purposes of large manœuvres over a section of the country set out in the schedule to the Draft Order. Perhaps I may say here that I do not think any Member of this House has had a good opportunity of studying this Draft Order, because it was not printed—for what reason or reasons I do not know—but by means of the grace and favour of the Vote Office I have been able to possess myself of a copy. I see that these manœuvres are to go over a large part of the country. Several counties are mentioned—amongst others the county of Hampshire. I myself come from the county of Hampshire—that part of it which is called the New Forest. Now in the New Forest we are all full of patriotism, and most anxious to do anything we can to help the Military Forces, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary for War and my hon. Friend who has just spoken. At the same time, however, we are under particular conditions. Amongst other things under the Military Manœuvres Act the New Forest is specially mentioned, in order that if ever military manœuvres are held in that Forest they shall be held under that Act. I will not weary the House at this late hour with going into details, but it is within the recollection of the House that it was passed in 1887.

§ Mr. ACLAND
1897.

§ Sir ROBERT HOBART
Yes, after very considerable discussion in this House and in Parliament generally on the subject. It is laid down most distinctly that if ever military manœuvres were to take place in the New Forest, special application was to be made to the Court of Verderers. Besides representing the New Forest in this House, I also have the honour of being Chairman of the Court of Verderers. Last year the right hon. Gentleman wished to have some large military manœuvres in the New Forest, and I believe that by some misadventure or some mistake, notice was not given to the Court of Verderers, nor was the proposal put in force. under the Military Manœuvres Act. Being full of patriotism we did our very best to get over that difficulty, and after interviewing my right hon. Friend, who acted most kindly, we accepted with the greatest possible 179 pleasure his proposal that the manœuvres should be held, not under the Military Manœuvres Act, because they could not then be held under that Act, there being no time to give the necessary notices, but under parallel conditions. The manœuvres took place, and I think I can challenge my right hon. Friend to say that everything possible was done by the Court of Verderers to meet the wishes of the Army Department. But I must tell the House that it was arranged that they would fulfil the conditions of the Military Manœuvres Act, and not come again to the New Forest for five years. That was plainly stated. What was our surprise to hear again this year that they were going to have military manœuvres again.

§ The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Haldane)
I think I can relieve my hon. Friend's mind. The manœuvring area we propose to take under this Order in Council and this Act has nothing to do with the New Forest. It touches a part of Hampshire altogether outside the New Forest, so that my hon. Friend may be quite easy in his mind.

§ Sir ROBERT HOBART
That is exactly my point. The right hon. Gentleman, if he wants to come again, can come again. If he should have forgotten again to give six months' notice under the Military Manœuvres Act and said he wished to hold manœuvres, I can only assure this honourable House that the Court of Verderers would again have overlooked the mistake and allowed the military to take place, and for the second time have given the right hon. Gentleman—two years running—full opportunities for the manœuvres. Well, I have said that we tried to arrive at an agreement. I am sorry to say that this agreement has not come off. I can only now ask if the right hon. Gentleman or the hon. Gentleman can explain to the House why it was that during last autumn, at all events, they could not make up their minds, when they resolved to hold great manœuvres in the neighbourhood of the New Forest, to proceed to schedule the New Forest according to the Act of Parliament and according to the intentions of Parliament when it passed the Act?
Resolved: "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying His Majesty to make an Order in Council under the Military Manœuvres Act, 1897, a draft of which was presented to this House on the 16th day of February last."