HC Deb 04 March 1909 vol 1 cc1662-91

Question proposed: "That Mr. Deputy-Speaker do now leave the Chair."


called attention to the social condition of the private soldier and his chances of employment in civil life after the expiration of his period of training; and moved as an Amendment, to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Question, in order to add the words:—

"That this House, while recognising the marked progress recently made in improving the social conditions of the private soldier's life, would welcome further steps towards this end, more particularly by the opening of temperance rooms in all barracks where none exist, by developing the system of training the private soldier for after employment in civil life, and by multiplying the opportunities of such employment," instead thereof:—

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put.


In moving this Amendment, I wish to say I did not put it down in any spirit of hostility to the Government for what they have done, because anybody who studied what the Government have done for the last two years must be well aware that the Government is fully alive to the problem which faces them. I think, even taking that into consideration, more could be done to deal with this difficult problem, which I think is part of the greater problem which we have already discussed this Session and in other Sessions—the question of unemployment. Because, after all, in our short system of service, you take your man for seven years and you return him to the labour market. Unless you can provide employment for the man on leaving the active ranks it will react upon the recruiting, upon the class of men, and upon the whole spirit of the Army. I think a great deal more could be done by the Government to settle this great problem, because, after all, when a man goes into the army for seven years he cuts himself off from the trades and employment which require an apprenticeship, and he can never again, on re-entering the labour market, compete with those who at fifteen, sixteen or seventeen apprenticed themselves to trades, and have got a start of seven or eight years. I do think if the Government and other public bodies would throw open such employment as could be well filled by men who had gone through seven years' discipline and training in the Army, it would be an inducement to men to go into the service knowing they would have something to look forward to at the other end.

I would ask the Government how far they have been able to act on the recom- mendations of Sir Edward Ward's Committee. I know the War Office and the Secretary of State have been very keen on this matter, but I am not so sure that the War Office or the Secretary of State have always been assisted by his colleagues in other departments. I should like to know how far the posts have been filled up by suitable men of good character from the Army. Certainly, I know one case, that of messengers and attendants. The practise has been resorted to of filling up their places by people who have been in private service and not public service. I pass from that, and ask what the Government are doing to push forward the question of technical education, because on reading the report which has been placed before us for 1907 it strikes me that the results so far achieved are somewhat trivial, and not likely to be any more effective unless more money is available than a grant of £750, with which very little can be done.

There is a small reform, but still one which would benefit the private soldier in the Army, and still more materially benefit the whole condition of those in the Army. I refer to the question of temperance rooms in barracks. The request I put forward is an extraordinary reasonable one, and it is that the Government in their English and Colonial establishments should see their way to come up to the standard which has long been held in India. That is not an excessive demand. In India a room is set apart in every barrack for the use of the Royal Army Temperance Association, and the exact words of the Order are as follows:— Indian Government Orders, 23 July, 1906. A separate room shall be invariably allotted in barracks for the use of the R.A T.A., and a light bar for temperance refreshments shall be established in it. Under no circumstances is the R.A.T.A. to be displaced from the room alloted to it.

In England about 108 rooms have been granted, and there are 64 without rooms. I am making this request for the reason that where there is no room you find the temperance organisation gets weak and dies. Take the case of the Seaforth Highlanders. When at Aldershot they had a Temperance Society of 200 with a room, and in Edinburgh no temperance room, and they dwindled to 60. The Commanding Officer writes:— This is simply owing to the want of a room and my men are disheartened.

The men themselves have shown great keenness in this matter, and in certain cases where they have been moved from barracks where there were rooms to bar- racks where there were none they have themselves at great expense dealt with the question. I find that the 2nd Yorkshire Regiment at York erected a room within the barracks at a cost of £300; the 33rd Brigade of Royal Field Artillery at Shorncliffe put up an iron room at a cost of £182; and similar figures could be quoted in other cases, showing real keenness on the part of the people concerned in this movement. Lord Roberts wrote on 22nd February last:— I have no doubt whatever of the great value of the work of the association, and could separate accommodation be provided for the use of its members, the beneficial result of its work would he still more apparent. The provision of rooms within barracks is essential to the effective carrying on of the movement. This reform has become the more necessary in consequence of an Army order issued in 1907, by which beer is allowed to be sold in ordinary recreation and other rooms; so that unless a temperance room is provided there is absolutely no place where the men can congregate free from the presence of liquor. Not only is the provision of such rooms of great assistance to the men engaged in this work, but it is extremely good business from the point of view of the Government. The work of this Association has led to increased efficiency—to decreased sickness, to economies in other similar directions, and to a general raising of the tone of the Army. Everybody knows how difficult it is to kill the old impression that the Army is an undesirable calling for a man to take up. There could be no better advertisements for recruiting than the men turned out by the Royal Army Temperance Association. I heard of an instance the other day of a man who, after serving 21 years with the colours, returned to his native village with savings of £200. What better advertisement for the Army could there be in that village? Sir Alfred Keogh, head of the Army Medical Service, in a letter to the Association, states that within the last 20 years the number of soldiers who entered the hospitals in India for alcoholism has fallen from 14 or 15 per thousand to 2 to 4 per thousand, and he attributes this to the effective work of the Royal Army Temperance Association. He concludes the letter by saying:— I feel sure the improved bearing of the soldier, his better conduct, and his greater freedom from disease is, in a great measure, due to his more temperate habits, and this, in turn, may, I think, be justly credited to the good work of your association. Moreover, there is an actual money saving. Here are the figures of a regiment on foreign service. Out of the battalion, ½per cent. of the abstainers went sick against 2½ per cent. of the non-abstainers, and there were court-martialled in twelve months one abstainer and 44 non-abstainers. There were about 300 abstainers in the regiment. Hence, by encouraging the work of this Association you tend to make the Army more effective and more capable of doing its duty. In 1900 Sir George White took out figures for seven regiments in India, and found that there were admitted to hospital 49 per thousand of abstainers and 92 per thousand of non-abstainers. Taking convictions by courts-martial during 1899, there were four per thousand of abstainers and 33 per thousand of non-abstainers. All that goes to show that the work of this association has been extraordinarily practical and effective. My request is a reasonable one, and it could be acceded to in almost every case without any structural alterations. At Christchurch a room which was vacant was refused for many months, until the people organising the Association went to a higher authority, and the room was granted. But there must be many instances where, owing to the inertia of those immediately concerned, rooms which might be made available are not placed at the disposal of the Association. I would ask the Government, if possible, to carry out the order which at present exists in India, and which has been so beneficial to our work in that country. I beg to move.


In seconding this motion I heartily support the remarks of the mover, especially those in which he dealt with the question of temperance in the Army. Whatever may be said for and against total abstinence, most commanding officers will agree that when it comes to real work they put the men, as far as they can, on strictly abstaining diet. I should like to express my great appreciation of the action of the War Office in bettering the social condition of the soldier. It is a very wise policy, and quite consistent with the highest ideal of what discipline should be. A soldier, if he is to be made an effective unit in these days, must be treated not so much as a mere unit in the military machine, but as a man. We have had recent experiences in Germany of the treatment of the soldier as a unit in the military machine. We know from recent revelations how the evils of a system which loses sight of this fact has affected the German soldier from the humanitarian point of view. Those who are thought to be specially desirous of promoting Socialism in England have to point to the fact that the Socialists in Germany are largely recruited from the discontented in the Army. He has been treated there with a total lack of those conditions which we desire to maintain in the British Army. If there is one thing that is becoming more and more important, it is that the soldier should at certain times be capable of individual initiative. How are you to get that unless you try to develop his intelligence and initiative. Therefore the mover of the resolution most heartily welcomed anything which has taken place in recent years to better the condition of the soldier as a man. I think that in recent years there has been a most wholesome development in the treatment of the soldier in regard to messing allowance and kit. Those who know of the small tyrannies and the ridiculous inconvenience which were formerly placed upon the private soldier with reference to the kit, will welcome the recent change in the way of throwing greater responsibility on the soldier in the way of paying greater attention to himself. What has been done in the way of improving the accommodation in barracks has been wholly in the right direction. There are many large barracks, if not at home, certainly at foreign stations, say Gibraltar, which would require vigorous handling indeed on the part of those in authority, so that the soldier should be housed not only in a more self-respecting condition, but more in accordance with the sanitary requirements. Another improvement in dealing with the soldier for purely military offences is the new method of instead of sending him to prison of giving him a sentence of detention. That has, no doubt, tended largely to increase the self-respect of the soldier.

With regard to canteens, there are three systems on which they can be run—the regimental, the renting, and the co-operative. The regimental system has more or less fallen into discredit, and there is keen rivalry between the renting and the co-operative systems. Charges are made—I do not know whether they are justified or not—that the tenant caterer has not the "fair field and no favour" which might tend to get the very best out of the tenant system. A great improvement has taken place in the condition of the private soldier under three heads which are referred to in the report for 1909, showing the results up to the end of 1908. Most significant facts are produced under those different heads. In 1902 there were 15,009 courts-martial, and in 1908 7,181. Punishment was inflicted in 1902 in 14,433 cases, and in 1908 in 7,035 cases. The test of desertion is the best test of the social condition of the soldier. In 1902 the number of desertion was nearly 12 per thousand, and last year it was a little over 5 per thousand. That is a satisfactory state of things on which those in charge of the Army may be congratulated. After the soldier leaves the colours and becomes a post office employee, or a gaol warder, or a policeman the service which he has already served under the colours does not count towards his pension. That requires a very speedy redress. There are about 30,000 discharges into the reserve every year, and far more than half of them may be described as unskilled labourers. There has been a very large development of a scheme to train the men when they are with the colours so as to make them fit to take some place in the civil employment of the State. The urgent needs for measures of that kind is largely shown by the Poor Law Commissioners Report. The minority report of the Poor Law Commission speaking of the tragedy of the physical and moral degradation from lack of timely and appropriate help of a man who once possibly filled a permanent situation says— It is only, another aspect of this tragedy that it is the men who have left the permanent situation afforded by the Army, and who, after more or less interval, have abandoned hope of getting any new employment of permanent character, who furnish the largest contingent, not, perhaps, of the professional vagrants, but of the floating population of the casual wards. What they aim at is to get permanent situations 'of trust' as it is called, as caretakers, bailiffs, gate-keepers, grooms, valets, chauffeurs, porters, clerks, etc., or as members of the Corps of Commissionaires. But only a minority of them secure such places. The others mostly sink gradually to the 'casual' class. Out of 1512 men who passed through the casual ward of a rural workhouse in the West of England in 1905, no fewer than 333 convinced the master that they had served in the Army (mostly producing their discharges). Of these, 136 were 'public works men,' and 107 labourers; these two sections constituting more than two-thirds of all the ex-soldiers. There were 10 painters, seven grooms, six shoemakers, and four each of carpenters, moulders, and gardeners; the others being divided among dozens of the most varied occupations. By way of contrast we may note that out of the whole 1512 men, in spite of the proximity of a great port, only 74 claimed to have been seamen; and of these eight were 'public works men,' and 13 labourers, most of the others being merely sailors on their way to other ports. Similarly, in the Church Army Homes, 'many of the men helped are ex-soldiers. In 1907, out of 1856 admitted to London Homes, 302 were ex-soldiers, 16.3 per cent.; and 22 per cent. of the men who passed through the Provincial Homes had been in military service. It is very rarely that any seamen apply for help.' In all our investigations into the tens of thousands of unemployed whom the distress committees have had in their hands, we have seldom found a seaman—practically none from the Royal Navy, and very few from the mercantile marine, p. 1183. Why is that? The reason is obvious The Royal Navy men are trained to use their hands and to become thoroughly effective men, and they are efficient when they leave the Service. What happens to the private soldier? He is turned out after service with the colours with little or nothing more than his drill. What is wanted is that there should be a large development of what I am happy to know taking place, namely, that a trade should be given to the private soldier while with the colours to fit him when he re-enters civil life as an efficient civic entity. I am very glad indeed to know that in a very large number of instances that is being done. I hope we shall hear from the Secretary of State, who has taken a very deep and a very keen interest in this whole question, as I very well know, and to whose efforts the private soldier owes a very great deal indeed. I hope we shall hear from him some announcement that this very serious matter shall be dealt with more effectively in the future than in the past.

Question proposed.


I think it will probably be for the convenience of the House if I were at once to reply with regard to the subject which has been talked of in the few speeches we have listened to, and then no doubt there will be other speeches on the same subject, but we hope this evening that the original Motion, "That the Speaker do now leave the Chair," should be agreed to, because on Monday on the Votes A and 1 there will be an opportunity of discussing any subject which is in order on the production of the Estimates. My difficulty in dealing with this question of the social condition of the soldier is to know exactly where to begin, but I think it might be of interest to the House if I tried for a few minutes to follow the soldier from the time when he joins as a recruit and take him through the different departments of his life and see what happens in those different departments. First of all, with regard to education, using the word in the ordinary sense as a knowledge of reading, writing, and so on. I am sorry to say that still, although we get a very much better quality of recruits than we got some years ago, the ordinary education of the recruits is extremely defective. Still, 74 per cent., or nearly three-quarters of the recruits, are below the standard which we describe as standard 4 in the elementary schools; of that 74 per cent., 43 per cent. are below standard 3, and 13 per cent. are below standard 1 of the public elementary schools. That is a very sorry state of things, both because the men are badly fitted when they go into civil life and because we need now in the Army a more highly educated man than we did in days gone by—a much higher initiative, and a much higher degree of self-control is demanded, and for this, education is needed. On to that very badly educated raw material we turn the Army schoolmasters. These Army schoolmasters are not absolutely up to date in their own trade, nor do they use perhaps the most modern methods of instruction, yet they win the confidence of the ordinary recruit, they do interest him in learning, and they educate him up to the point of taking one or more of the series of certificates we have. We have three certificates; the third is equivalent to standard 4, the second to standard 7, and the 1st class certificate is considerably higher. Thanks to the exertions of the Army schoolmaster, no less than 32,500 of these certificates were obtained last year, and the percentage of those in the Army awarded these certificates has risen in the last 10 years from 38 per cent. to 59 per cent., which is a very satisfactory state of things. Therefore, instead of only 25 per cent. of the recruits who reach standard 4 when they join, you have 59 per cent. of the serving soldiers attaining at least to that standard, and whereas only five per cent. of the recruits in the Army reach standard 7, there are 25 per cent. of the trained men reaching that standard and higher. As we owe so much to the Army schoolmaster, we have been trying to do something to improve his training efficiency. We have tried to do something in these Estimates, and also to add to the numbers of those men, that there may be more general instruction given.

We have brought both the system under which he is trained and the teaching which he gains under the purview of the skilled inspectors of the Board of Education. That of itself cannot fail to have a very excellent effect, and in return the Board of Education is recognising these schoolmasters who are trained under the better system which has been lately introduced as certified public elementary schoolmasters, so that they may have an employment to turn to when they leave the colours.

But, although it is a fact that we are getting a far better sort of recruit than we did before, it is rather lamentable to contemplate that three quarters of them come with an education less in standard than the ordinary child of 10 years old. It argues a terrible power of forgetting the drift altogether of one's school days. It is not in my province to say so, but how badly it shows that we are in need of some possibility at any rate of compulsory continuation schools to keep these young fellows in touch in however slight a degree with learning—reading and writing, and so on.

To go back to the recruit, let me, secondly, take the accommodation—barracks and so on—which he will find before him when going to his unit. There is a great deal to do in the way of improving old barracks, but, on the other hand, a good deal is being done. I find that in improving barracks, mainly with regard to sanitary matters, in the last three years our average expenditure has been £8,000 a year. This year we have been able to increase it to £16,000, and in the new barracks which are being built the recruit will find a far better system of providing proper accommodation for him than he would have found in times past. All the new barracks are being built with separate dining and recreation rooms, separate reading and writing rooms, and separate bath rooms, and all these are planned much more conveniently than they were in times past. Another matter now being rapidly improved is the lighting of the barracks. Nothing keeps the soldiers in barracks better in the evenings than having good light, where they can read or do what they choose to do. The Committee is investigating and spending money on experiments. Our average expenditure in improving and lighting in the last three years has only been £2,500, but this year we are giving £5,000, and as soon as this Committee, by its experiments, has been able to tell us what is on the whole the best system of lighting to adopt we shall go ahead even faster than that, although we have 11 barracks in different parts of the country and abroad lighted throughout, I think, with electric light. In the up-to-date barracks now being built the cubicle system is provided. This has been tried at Windsor, and it will be carried out in new barracks to be built at Edinburgh. It is well recognised that the system may make it sometimes a little more difficult to keep order, but on the other hand it encourages the best sort of men, and we find if we can get the best men into the Army they will look after those who are not of the same standard, and see that they do not kick over the traces and make a nuisance of themselves.

Now I come to the subject of canteens and the provision made for refreshment rooms and so on. We have been recently trying to carry out the theory that it is better to try to combine the canteen and supper-room, to have both conducted on the restaurant principle, and allow men to sit down with a glass of beer without necessarily having anything to eat, instead of making the canteen simply a bar and reserving the supper-room for temperance men. It has been considered better not to separate the sheep from the wolves, but to have the canteen and the supper-room together, and let the public opinion of the better men influence the others, and have the good effect which it always has. But that has not been found incompatible with making provision as is desired by this very excellent society, the Royal Temperance Association, in the new barracks at Windsor under the system that has been referred to, for the work of that society. The hon. Member has admitted the difficulty of providing new accommodation, but I can assure him we will do everything we can, wherever it can be provided, to see that it is provided, because the excellent work which it does is very fully recognised indeed. Several hon. Members have drawn attention to the great need of improving the married quarters. It is one of the things for which provision should be made in this estimate. I am glad to say that we have been able to increase the expenditure, which was considerable last year—some £43,000—to £84,000, an increase of £41,000, or very nearly double, and I believe that these very deficient bad married quarters that have been referred to will soon have become things of the past. If you take the recruit outside his barracks there again you will find an improvement. A great deal of good work has been done by religious bodies and others, often through the help of Army funds, in the direction of building institutes and clubs and in work of that kind. I should like to be allowed to pay a tribute to the work of the Rev. R. W. Allen, of the Wesleyan Methodist Church, who has been so very active and has done such extraordinarily good work in helping the soldier through the institutes for which he has collected money and so on.

I want now to say a few words about other attractions, not at all so desirable, which the soldier may find if he goes further afield. I refer to the question of sexual morality in the Army. It is a difficult subject, but I think that the House should know the extraordinary change that has been coming over the Army in that matter during the last five or ten years. A recruit, if we followed him, would find that very soon after joining the Army now he would come in contact, by listening to descriptions or having talks with selected medical officers and Army chaplains, who would put this matter very fairly and squarely before him—he would find that some of the worst evils that there used to be have already been tempered largely by the efforts that have been made through the Committee for the Moral and Spiritual Welfare of the Soldier, to which the House knows the right hon. Gentlemen opposite, the hon. Member for Central Hackney and the hon. Member for Dumfries, belong. About this work I hope we shall hear later in the evening. He would find, thanks to the work of that committee, that the sale of undesirable photographs has been put down at several of our foreign stations. He will find proper control now over the character of all entertainments given in regimental institutes, etc., and he will find very splendid work being done by the Whitecross League, about which some Members of this House may know.

I believe that has more to do with it than anything else. The officers join in the games and encourage the men more than they used to do in the past, and much has been done by the Royal Army Temperance Association and other bodies in this respect. The result of all the cooperation by chaplains, medical officers, and so on has been that whereas in 1897 of the six named groups of disease which caused discharge from the Army, this group of diseases due to this sort of excess came second. This group was very nearly the worst of all in 1897, but in 1907 it had fallen to being practically the least of all, and comes at the bottom of the list. Putting it into figures, it amounts to this, that whereas in 1897 the discharges due to this disease were 2£ per thousand of strength, they have now fallen to .3 per thousand of the strength of the Army. Taking the figures in another way, the admissions to hospitals are one-sixth in number to what they were 10 years ago. Without any more words from me the House will readily understand what an extraordinary far-reaching effect that has in all departments of our social life, and hon. Members will realise what a great work has been done. Turning to our recruits, we have done something in regard to the system under which they buy their clothing. Hitherto we have made a first issue in kind, and we used to continue in kind the different articles of equipment and kit as they wore out, but we had a very complicated system of giving the soldier credit for the value of those things which lasted longer than their official life. That was a very complicated system, and it required a considerable staff to work out and carefully estimate the length of life of every article supplied. All that has now been swept away. The recruit will receive his first issue in kind in future, but he will afterwards be given a money allowance quarterly in advance to maintain both his clothing and kit. If he is careful of his clothing the soldier will benefit at once every quarter by his care, and instead of having balances carried forward, which he never understood, at the anniversary of the day of his enlistment he will have a more direct interest in the care of his clothing and economy in its use than he had before. We are trusting him more by making these grants in advance than we did before. The thing that pleases me most is that there will be a saving by the new system, not at the expense of the soldier, but owing to the simplification of the system.

During the last year a new system of physical exercises has been introduced, and this was referred to by the Secretary of State this afternoon. What has happened is that instead of having violent chest-expanding and muscle-producing exercises, which so often caused a great strain upon the heart and lungs, we have adopted a more reasonable, moderated, and graduated course, based upon the Swedish, and modified by the Danish, system, and a very great improvement is the result. And I may mention that there has been sitting for some months past an important committee under the Director-General of the Army Medical Service to investigate the physiological effects of food, clothing, and training upon the soldier. That has helped the working out of the form of kit which has been referred to this afternoon, which allows the soldier to have his tunic entirely open during the march, and not tied across his chest at all. That has produced already, where it has been tried, a great improvement in the distance that the men can march, and the weights they can carry without any undue fatigue. They are also working at the scientific composition of the men's rations, and investigating methods of marching, the best time of day, the proper periods of rest, the times at which rest should be taken, and so on—so as in all ways to get the most work, with the least discomfort, out of the men.

The House may think that all these things are little in themselves. They include improvement in education, in barrack accommodation, in getting reasonable amusements for the men, and so on, improvement in clothing, physical and moral improvement. I think they have a cumulative effect. We are taking the soldier more as a reasonable being, and he is responding in a very marked way. I should like to show the effect, so far as figures show it, that this improved treatment of the soldier has brought with it. At the end of last year it was found possible at Aldershot to discontinue the system of sending out picquets every night through the town. That has had the incidental effect of relieving 500 men per week from an irksome and unpleasant duty. A sufficient time has elapsed to be able to judge of the success of this experiment in trusting the soldier to behave. The General Officer Commanding-in-Chief at Aldershot recently reported as follows:— I am glad to affirm my belief that the alteration has, on the whole, been for good, and that its result indicates that trust placed in the soldier to-day is not misplaced.

The same system has been adopted in the Northern Command, and the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief there says:— I concur in the belief that the rank and file of the Army can, under all ordinary conditions, be trusted to conduct themselves in an orderly and soldierlike manner.

So that I think we may consider that the experiment has been so far quite a success. No doubt it will be gradually extended.

Then there has been a very remarkable decrease in the amount of crime. The House knows already what excellent effects were produced by substituting the detention barracks for prison. A man feels in detention barracks that he is not the gaol bird that he has been too apt to feel before. He gets in these detention barracks a very excellent system of education and training. He is engaged in making useful things, and in physical exercises would do him good. The system has been so strikingly successful that it must interest the House to know that Lord Charles Beresford, on inspecting one of those big detention barracks, came to the conclusion that the system ought to be adopted for the Navy also. With regard to the figures of men under punishment, the average daily population in prison, the percentage, has decreased from 8.4 in 1904 to 3.7 in 1908. The offences have decreased from 16,300 in 1904 to under 10,000 in 1908.

Looking at it from another point of view, we may consider the figures in relation to discharges from preventable causes, though, of course, death cannot be included among preventable causes. It is interesting to note that owing to the improved health of the troops, in three years there has been a decline in the number of deaths from 1,336 to 1,091; the number invalided has declined from 3,736 to 2,317; the number of those who purchased their own commissions has declined from 1,030 to 764; and the number of those discharged for misconduct has declined from 2,821 to 2,023. The total decline under these four heads in three years has been from 8,320 to 6,195. There has been special care with regard to the selection and better training of recruits, and the proportion of invalids per 1,000 effective men under two years' service in 1903 was 22, and in 1907 it was 12. I cannot do better than close this part of the subject by stating that if any hon. Members interested in these matters wish to go to Aldershot they will be welcomed. It is not my invitation, but the invitation of General Dorrien Smith, the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief. There was a visit to Aldershot two years ago, and though hon. Members may not see cavalry charges and so on, they will be interested to see how the recruit is educated, clothed, and trained. In regard to the employment of the ex-soldier, our object in training men for work after they have left the colours is not to enable them to compete with the members of skilled trades, it is not to find them back doors to well-paid jobs, but it is to fit them for habits of civil work rather more than they have been in the past, to undertake the ordinary responsibilities of citizenship. It has been said in this House that old ideas on this subject rather belong to the long-service system than to our Army as it is organised at present. But once a soldier always a soldier, and when he has ceased to serve with the colours he should receive his pension, and there should be an opportunity of his obtaining work.

Short service is our sheet anchor in this country to both efficiency and economy, and employment is essential to securing both efficiency and economy. With regard to efficiency, it is, I think, acknowledged by the best experts we have now that there is a rapid deterioration in an Army which has to do the work our Army has to do over the age of 30. I am not talking of technical and departmental services, but services on the line. You get the best fighting material under the age of 30, and that is what we obtain now. The ordinary man serves from 18 to 25 with the colours and from 25 to 30 with the Reserve. So that we do get the men on our present system during the best part of their lives, and this must be remembered also, that the men during their reserve service from 25 to 30 are every bit as much part of the first fighting line as their comrades who are undergoing the first seven years of training. They are called upon absolutely at once when we mobilise, and if those men are not being properly looked after and not getting proper employment they will not be efficient when they return to the colours. Therefore it is of the first importance to see that all the men who go at any rate with good characters should have the very best chance of future employment.

With regard to economy, there is this to be said, that if we are to attract the best class of men into the Army they must know there is a reasonable chance of employment when their short period of service comes to an end. I believe to a good man that is far more of an attraction than the rate of pay while he is with the colours. I believe that the great increase we made to the pay of the regular Army, which is still responsible for one of the largest items on our Estimates, has had very little effect in getting a better class of recruit. To get a good class depends almost wholly on what we can offer when his seven years of service is over. The best man is the cheapest. There is less crime, there is less doctoring, there are fewer discharges, fewer desertions, less waste all round, and therefore it is only by attracting the best men that we can permanently hope to get the best value for our money. There is also this point, if we cannot give a guarantee of employment we should have to set up a system of pensions if we once had to confess that even if men went out with good characters and with every desire to do steady work yet could not get that work, it would be very difficult to resist the claim in spite of the short-service system that pensions would have to be paid. Once we begin that we get a vast load of extra taxation. The avoiding of that extra load is only justifiable if proper machinery exists for finding employment.


You pay pensions to everybody except the common soldier.


I do not think we pay pensions to anybody for seven years' work. I know that if I was a Civil Servant I would have to be at work for ten years before I would get a pension of ten-sixtieths or one-sixth, so it is not exactly true that we pay pensions to everybody except the private soldier. We pay pensions to the private soldier or non-commissioned officer if he stops on twenty-one years. We do not consider it necessary to pay men who have only served seven years with the colours and retire at the age of about twenty-five.


But you make a regulation that he shall not serve ten years.


That is quite true, and I am coming to that. While admitting to a certain extent the extension, we can be sure of having the proper size of army reserve and can be sure of not having a very swollen pension list that would cause a very considerable increase on the Army Estimates. While the regulation is 10 per cent. I have found frequent instances where that 10 per cent. has been very considerably exceeded and the opportunity allowed to stay on and qualify for their pensions. The importance of obtaining employment on leaving the colours being so great, the House will ask what have we done; what remains to be done; do we actually get employment for all ex-soldiers; if not, why do we fail? On this matter it is necessary to give certain warnings. There are certain men join the Army who almost inevitably will not settle down to steady employment when they leave the colours, and who would not do so whether they joined the Army or not. I worked for some years in a boys' club at Notting Hill; I knew the class of boy there perfectly; he habitually played truant from school; he submitted to be taught reading and writing in the boys' club only because of the laxer discipline; he would not take any work more definite than that of a van-boy; he saw a lot of life in London hanging on to a string at the back of a van, but he would never settle down to anything more tied than that. There is a vagrant class which will never settle down to permanent work. We have tried again and again to get boys to enter permanent employment after a few years as van-boys, but we generally find at the end that they enlist. Enlisting is about the only chance that boys of that class have. The Army gets hold of a lot of them, and makes them steady. Many, however, remain sturdy rovers all their lives, but they have to thank the Army that they are sturdy, and not blame it because they are rovers. Hon. Members may ask why we take this class if recruiting is so good. We are glad to get them, because they make the very best sort of fighting material in the world. We get now a large proportion of men of perfectly good character, and they can get hold of the rovers and bring them into line. We do not want all our recruits to come from the Sunday schools; we are glad to get these others; they make excellent soldiers. When you allow for this class, I think the House will agree that the results obtained are, on the whole, pretty good. 1908 was not a good year for employment, but of the 24,000 men who in that year left the colours with characters either "exemplary," "very good," or "good," we know that 21,000 got employment, and, of course, there must be many more of whom we have not heard. But more can be done. In the first place, a good deal could be done by organising the agencies at present engaged in trying to get employment for ex-soldiers. They are largely unco-ordinated at present. The House will remember that under Clause 2 of the Territorials Reserve Forces Act, one of the duties put on the County Associations is the care of reservists and discharged soldiers. Movements have been made to get the Association to undertake that work at once, but we thought that they had got such a great amount still to do, and that the work naturally took such a great deal of time and energy, that it was unfair to put this extra work upon them at the present time. That has this practical bearing, that the subscriptions which have hitherto so generously been given to the voluntary associations are every bit as much needed as before, and I cannot announce that that work which has been so efficiently done by those voluntary associations has yet been taken off their shoulders by the County Associations or that there is any very near prospect of that being done. I think we are bound to pursue, and if possible extend, the experiments we are making in trying to train the men to trades before they leave the colours. The Mover of the Amendment said that we ought to have more money for doing it, and that the sum now allowed is not sufficient. I shall welcome all the good offices he can use with the Treasury to let us have more money.


Can the hon. Gentleman tell us how far the recommendations of the Committee have been met by the Departments?


I think it would be very invidious to name the Departments which have set a good example in the matter of engaging Army men. We cannot ask them to abandon established customs all at once, but we know that of 24,000 men who left in 1908, 21,000 have found employment. On the whole that shows that the Departments, and certainly the Post Office, have done their best to try to make all the vacancies they could for the men leaving the Army.


May I call attention to another recommendation of the Report with reference to line men going into the Civil Service having the time of their military service counted towards pension in the Civil Service?


That has already been referred to. There is a big principle involved, and as it can only be decided by the Cabinet, I do not think I should deal with it.


Will you try to persuade the Cabinet?


I want hon. Members to notice the latest report, which shows that the trades we have been most successful in getting soldiers to adopt are not those which compete with organised labour. We are not trying to cut out trade unionists or to provide fully trained men who have been through an apprenticeship or anything of that kind. The largest classes are chaffeurs, 271; gardeners, 230; men trained for commercial and clerical work, 538; and waiters, grooms, etc., 377. My difficulty has been all through not so much to find jobs for men as to find men who will consent to be trained for jobs. It is rather difficult after a period of Army service, however reasonable it may be, to make a man settle down to the ordinary pursuits of civil life. But a great deal has been done by lectures in acquainting the soldier with the chances he has got and the difficulties which he has to face.

Another matter which has been going on recently in Scotland is the work of the religious bodies looking after the soldiers. In Scotland that work is comparatively easy, because the ecclesiastical army is strong there. The recruits have been asked with what ministers have they been connected, and to my great surprise—and I do not think it is possible in England—95 per cent. of the recruits have been able to name their ministers.


Is that the cause for enlisting?


When a soldier leaves the colours his papers are collected, and he is put in communication with the minister of whatever religious denominaton he belongs in the place in which the soldier is to settle down. In that direction a great deal of work is being done on behalf of men with good characters and of men with less good characters. This operates in both ways, for not only is a soldier in touch with the minister, but the minister is kept in touch with the soldier after he has left the colours. The families have been so pleased with the fact that the soldier has been put in touch with the Army chaplain that whole families have become ardent churchgoers. There is still a third way in which this has been worked out. When a soldier goes home on furlough the chaplain communicates with his minister at home, and the result is that when the furlough comes to an end the minister of the place looks after him and sees that he returns to the Army. Another point I want to make is in connection with pensions. Pensioners hitherto have not been able to commute their pensions before the age of 50. That is rather hard. Commutation of pensions wants very careful watching. I have been able to provide £40,000 to allow men who, after 21 years, leave the colours at the age of 40, to commute at once.


Do you think that advisable?


We do consider it is advisable. Each case is carefully considered by the Chelsea Commissioners, and a pensioner cannot commute at all unless he can get them to certify it will be to his advantage. Often men try to commute at fifty, but it has been found that they have not then the energy at that age to make the best use of the opportunity, and it has been found necessary to make them retain at least 1s. per day, which will be a very popular thing to do. I think I am justified in claiming that we have tried to do, and are proceeding to do more than ever was done before for the welfare of the soldier and the ex-soldier. The old reproach that the soldier was a blackguard while in the force and a wastrel when out of it has almost altogether disappeared. We treat the soldier well, and look after him better than ever, and the result is we get a better and a cheaper Army, and one which is more in touch with the life and sympathies of our people.


I think the House ought to feel grateful to the hon. Member who moved this Amendment, because it enabled us to hear, just now, a speech from the Financial Secretary to the War Office, which will give great satisfaction to the public generally who are interested in the Army. The position of the soldier in the Army to-day is, as the hon. Member has pointed out, vastly improved. His pay is better, his housing is better, his food is better, his general character is better, and, as we have been assured, the Scotch minister looks after him when he leaves the Army. I can only hope that the right hon. Gentleman who has been such a powerful influence in improving the Army of late may be able to secure similar relations between the English soldier and Dr. Clifford or Dr. Campbell of the City Temple, and so add to the benefits he has already conferred upon the Army.

I, in my younger days, was associated with the Army, and everything concerning it has deeply interested me. My father served with the colours for many years, and my associations have been such as to induce me always to take an interest in the Army, and I think the necessity of making the position of the soldier better cannot be taken too greatly to heart, and the necessity for producing results commensurate with our needs. These needs could never have been met after the South African war had it not been, and I am quite certain the right hon. Gentleman will agree with what I state—had it not been for the strenuous effort made by his predecessor to better the condition of the soldier in the Army, which was supported so strongly by the House and the country at large. I do not want to detract in the least from the admirable work of improving the condition of the soldier which the right hon. Gentleman and the Government have carried out. I do want to say, however, that we must not think from the improvement that has been made—because, after all, Ministers do give somewhat rainbow colours to results—we must not be satisfied with what has happened. The pay is better, the food is better, the barrack accommodation is better, but we require also a good deal more sympathy, if I may respectfully say so, from hon. Members who are closely associated with the representation of the Labour party, because I notice whenever the question of employment of ex-soldiers is mentioned, hon. Members below the Gangway are apt to interject cynical and doubtful remarks about the soldier and his opportunity.


We think he ought to be a member of Parliament.


This is a very serious question, and I have noticed that curious jealousy of Labour members and the opposition to the soldier being allowed to compete with the civic workman in industrial work.


I am sure that no speeches which have been delivered by Labour members ought to lead to that impression. We do not want the preference given to the soldier to turn a person out of his employment.


That is a very reasonable statement, but I have been in this House for a number of years now, and I have noticed that there is a tendency to cramp the ex-soldier who is searching for employment. I regret it extremely—


The fact is—


The hon. Gentleman will have a chance to reply.


I do not want a chance.


I regret it if it is a fact, but if I have the hon. Member's assurance to the contrary, I at once withdraw, but that is the impression created on my mind. I want to say something about the employment of soldiers after they have left the Army and what is being done now to fit them to take part in the battle of life when they receive their discharges. Under the old system, with long service, the soldier was absolutely incapable of taking part at all in the battle of life when he left the Army. No one who knows the old soldier 25 years ago but realises the truth of what I say, that not one out of 100 was fitted to compete with the ordinary citizen in the struggle for bread. But things have greatly changed, and it is due to the fact that we have a new conception in the mind of the public concerning the soldier, and we have a new conception in the War Office. The Army retained the severity of rule and a rigid view of the life of the soldier much longer than it was retained by the public at large. There has been a great change, due to the predecessors of the right hon. Gentlemen and to the right hon. Gentleman himself.

Just a word or two concerning the employment of soldiers after they leave the Army, and what the Army organisation is doing now. I do not think it quite satisfactory. I think £2,000 is set apart in order to give the soldiers technical instruction to fit them for trades, more or less skilled, some unskilled, when they leave the Army. But I do not find from the reports of commanding officers that as satisfactory results have been achieved as we could well desire. It is an extraordinary thing that only 3,000 men in the Army have taken advantage of the technical instruction offered them during the last year. The commanding officer of the Northern command gives a reason which I believe to be a sound one. He says the soldier is so hard worked that he really has not time to take advantage of it under present circumstances, with the result that for instance at Gibraltar there were 144 who entered for the instruction, and only 18 went through the course and secured training. There must be something radically wrong. These men paid their fees for the course, and dropped out by the score. We must come to the conclusion that there is still much to be done in solving this problem on the part of the Army authorities and on the part of the Minister for War. If we believe that the soldier is as a rule unfitted to enter the battle of life after he leaves the Army to compete successfully with those who have been in civil employment, we ought to prepare him and the Army has set apart a small sum, but it is too small, and the organisation is evidently unsatisfactory and incomplete. It is said in this report that about 75 per cent. of those who leave the Army expect to get employment through their friends or various avenues; and 5 per cent., I believe, it is said would never seek employment in any circumstances; and the other 20 per cent. depend upon chance. If there are 20 per cent. not provided for that 20 per cent. should be encouraged while they are still in the service to take advantage of the technical instruction. I do not think too much importance can be attached to this system of technical instruction in the Army. The right hon. Gentleman the Minister for War is very much in love with the German system. The whole basis of the German system is a basis of technical instruction. A great many people in this country—I suppose a majority in this House—would be opposed to conscription. But there is one thing in connection with conscription which we could urgently recommend: that is this principle of technical instruction which has done more to build up German industry than perhaps anything else. It has returned to civil ranks scores of thousands of men who are prepared to take their part again in the struggle for existence in the industrial world.

I believe that the Member for Woolwich the other day made a very strong appeal on behalf of the Territorials, urging that every young man should join the Territorials and fit himself to defend his country in time of national peril. I would ask the Labour Members to carry that a little further and not be afraid of what the soldier may do if he is fitted in the Army to take his place again in the industrial struggle; because if he cannot take his place in the industrial struggle when he leaves the Army he only becomes a charge as the Financial Secretary pointed out a little while ago, on his fellow citizens, only tends to degrade the industrial life of the country, only adds to the casual labour, and only prejudices his fellow citizens against the Army. I believe that the number of those who are prejudiced is a very decreasing number. The Under Secretary for the Colonies shakes his head. I hope it is with approval. No man has done more in this House to speak for the private soldier and the improvement in his position than The Under Secretary for the Colonies the Amendment of the hon. Member only draws attention to this matter of employment of the soldier on leaving the Army it will help to solve a problem whose solution will increase the general welfare of the country and the prestige of the Army in the best sense—that is to say, it will attract to the Army the best class of men. The standard and character of the men who have entered the Army during the past ten years has risen, and if you make the Army attractive by giving happy and agreeable surroundings and providing through instruction the possibility of employment after leaving the Army, you may be quite certain that what the right hon. Gentleman so much desires, namely, a continuous stream of recruits for his Expeditionary Army will be forthcoming. Under those conditions that stream would continue to flow in an increasing volume, and a better class of man will be attracted to the Army than we have ever had before.


I join with the hon. Member opposite in thanking the Financial Secretary to the War Office for his interesting and helpful speech. The chief thing that has occurred to me on this subject has been the enormous influence of a sympathetic commanding officer. With a commanding officer who is interested in his men they can be made as happy as any other section of the community; but when they have a commanding officer who takes little or no interest in his men they do not have the pleasant and comfortable time which they ought to have. I have been very much struck with the improved type of recruits who are now joining, because they are a much better class. For one thing the younger recruits do not drink, and they spend their money more on sweets and sausages and on things which they call tasty. I think we owe a good deal to those soldiers' homes to which the Financial Secretary referred, where these young men find good surroundings, and are afforded the opportunity of forming a friendship with devoted ladies who give their lives to that kind of work. I have had occasion to visit barracks on a very foggy day, and I know how cheerless some of the rooms are there. I can well understand the desire of any soldier to get away from those dark, uncomfortable cold rooms and enter the warm, well-lighted public-houses, the owners of which are only too ready to bid him welcome. I know that now there are dining rooms where the men have more comfort, and cubicles have been provided. I agree with the hon. Member who has just spoken, that the weak point is the education of the soldier. To me the trouble seems due to the fact that the soldiers are only taught to obey and the tradition that lingers that a soldier is still regarded very largely merely as a fighting machine. His initiative is not encouraged, and efforts should be made to get him to take advantage of the technical instruction which is waiting for him. If the soldier on leaving the Army has to compete with the much more highly trained civilian who has attended evening continuation and technical instruction classes, the War Office will have to look into this matter and bestir themselves much more thoroughly. It is all very well to have a man who obeys orders, but there may come times in actual warfare where the power of initiative might be useful. Then I should like to return to one point that was urged by my hon. Friend, and to which the Financial Secretary made no reply. He was moderate in his statement and that was in the barracks there should be set apart a room for the Army Temperance Association.


Wherever we can we give a room.


Yes; but you ought to give it everywhere. The hon. Member quoted the case of Edinburgh Castle. I know Edinburgh Castle. If there is any place in the world where there is a necessity for a temperance room it is in Edinburgh Castle. He is going to build, it is said, new barracks near Edinburgh, in a beautiful country district. I hope that he will take care that there are all the possible improvements and advantages that can surround the life of the soldier. I was glad the Financial Secretary referred to one thing: the question of the civil employment of the soldier after he leaves the Army. In Scotland the authorities have the invaluable assistance of Dr. Mackay, and in this case, as in many others, the man is of much greater importance than the Committee.

There is one other matter which I would like to refer to. The Financial Secretary said that last year 2,300 men left the Army medically unfitted. He did not tell us what happened to them. There was a proposal to utilise Dumbarton Castle for this class of men for a convalescent home.


A very damp situation.


The locality perhaps is not so salubrious as it might be, but I am glad he is going to provide a place for men sent home invalided, where they can have breathing time and have some training before returning to civil life. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will find that a feasible scheme. To me this whole question is less a military one than a question of human interest. We here are employers of labour of these men, and it is our duty as employers to take care that their life is made as comfortable and as happy as it is possible for us to make it.


After the speech of the hon. Member for Gravesend I feel called upon at least to say something in vindication of Members below the Gangway. There are no Members of this House more in sympathy with the common soldier than we are. In our life and surroundings it could not be otherwise than that we should have the utmost sympathy with the common soldier. There is no association that has done more than our organisations for the soldier and reservist, and at the time of the South African war we carried benefits not only to the men, but to their wives and families, should they lose their lives. We did that not out of sympathy with the objects of the war, but we were in sympathy with men and women of our own class. I have asked questions with regard to the employment of discharged soldiers, not that I and my colleagues were out of sympathy with them, but because influences were at work to get these men situations at the expense of some of our own men. The worst feature of it is that the discharged soldiers are to take positions at a less wage, and it is of that we complain. We wish every facility to be offered for the discharged soldier, but not to undersell the ordinary civilian in his work. Let there be a fair field and we are satisfied, and we entirely repudiate the statement that we are not in sympathy with discharged soldiers.

Mr. J. D. REES

I am very glad to hear what the hon. Member has just said that he would give a preference for a job to an old soldier. [An HON. MEMBER "Why preference?"] It seems to me that some feeling to that effect was expressed in the speech of the hon. Member for Newcastle. The hon. Member for Gravesend said, with unnecessary modesty, and, I think, with some inaccuracy, that he had nothing practical to say about the private soldier. I think I have. As our protector general, as the pillar of our rule in India, without which it would dissolve like a dream, he has been the means of eliciting a well-deserved recognition in this House of the excellence of Indian administration. If you want to see an infantry regiment a thousand strong on parade you must go to India, or a cavalry regiment with horses you must go to India. If you want to see regimental institutions well conceived, well equipped, and well managed you must go to India. So my hon. Friend the Member for Eskdale said, and it was allowed by other speakers, and I must say that it is a gratifying thing to an old Indian pensioner to hear a tribute to Indian administration, which, if hon. Members only knew the facts, they would be willing to give in every case. During the debate I was very much interested to see how the ruling passion came out. In the hands of my hon. Friend the Member for Eskdale this resolution took a teetotal turn, and with the Financial Secretary it became educational in character; but in the hands of both hon. Gentlemen I am glad to say there was a concensus on one subject, and that was as to these institutions in India, the excellence of which has been admitted fully in regard to temperance, and socially and morally.

I do not want to overstate the case, but my hon. Friend the Member for Eskdale, who proposed the Resolution—it is his day out—said practically the same thing. When he pleaded for a special temperance room in barracks I heartily agreed with him. I think, as there is a place for the sale of drink called a bar, that there should be a place not for drinking called a temperance room. I hope the Secretary of State for War will endeavour to provide such, though I cannot agree with the hon. Member for Blackpool that it is an easy matter to provide accommodation for all those purposes in all the barracks over the country, and that the expense does not matter. I cannot help thinking that the hon. Gentleman opposite is somewhat hard upon certain employers who have been guilty of any wrong towards their employees, but simply choose in the exercise of their discretion to give the preference to an ex-soldier in making those appointments in their own employment. I submit that was within their right, and, in exercising it, they not only have not been guilty of tyranny but that they exercised it wisely and in a patriotic manner. [An HON. MEMBER: "Cheaply."] I speak with great respect to the opinions of hon. Gentlemen opposite, if they will allow me to express mine. I would say, as one who has lived with regiments in India, I would echo all that has been said of the immense progress in temperance, and in all respects of the British soldier in India. Thirty-five years ago things were different indeed.

The hon. Member for Stoke made a great point of the administration of our regiments, being what he called aristocratic and not democratic in character. I should like to assure him, both in general and particular, as regards those institutions, that the administration of regiments in India is neither aristocratic nor democratic, but efficient, and that efficiency is the one thing the authorities care for, and it is by no means the case that the management is conducted in the spirit which he ascribed to it. I repeat that it is most gratifying that, to-night at any rate, there has been none of that prejudice against the excellence of administration in India, and I hope and believe that the more hon. Members learn at first-hand of what it is like, the less ready will they be to think ill of it.

Question—"That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question"—put, and agreed to. Main Question again proposed— "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair."

Mr. LUPTON : I think the right hon. Gentleman will hardly closure this discussion, seeing

that the speakers from the Treasury Bench have occupied three hours of our time. I should like to refer to the inoculation of our troops who go abroad. I am surprised the right hon. Gentleman should still advocate this after its ghastly failure. In the case of South Africa, not only had they the effects of the voyage to overcome, but they were subjected to this horrid attack by the medical men, who weakened them, poisoned their blood, and then delivered them in South Africa to fall an easy prey to the enemy or to enteric when they reached Bloemfontein. Even if it were a prophylactic against enteric there would be no justification for inserting poison in the blood of our soldiers. There are hundreds of other ailments to which human beings are subject, and to try to prevent this one, not by sanitation, but by this degrading method, is not a step in advance, but a retrograde step, taking us back a hundred years.


rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put,— "That the Question be now put."

The House divided: Ayes, 180; Noes, 54.

Division No.[22.] AYES. [11.0 p m.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Bell, Richard Cleland, J. W.
Acland, Francis Dyke Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) Clough. William
Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) Cobbold, Felix Thornley
Ainsworth, John Stirling Bennett. E. N. Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)
Alden, Percy Boulton, A. C. F. Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Bowerman. C. W. Cotton, Sir H. J. S.
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Branch. James Crooks, William
Armitage, R. Brigg, John Crosfield, A. H.
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)
Atherley-Jones, L. Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Buchanan, Rt. Hon. Thomas R. Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Buckmaster, Stanley O. Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras. N.)
Barlow. Percy (Bedford) Buxton. Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.
Barnes. G. N. Byles. William Pollard Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)
Barran, Rowland Hirst Carr-Gomm. H. W. Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)
Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight Erskine, David C.
Beale. W. P. Cheetham, John Frederick Esslemont, George Birnie
Beaumont, Hon. Hubert Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. P. Evans, Sir Samuel T.
Everett, R. Lacey Lamont, Norman Rowlands, J.
Falconer, J. Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Fenwick, Charles Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Findlay, Alexander Levy, Sir Maurice Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Fuller, John Michael F. Lewis, John Herbert Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Fullerton, Hugh Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)
Gill, A. H. Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Seddon. J.
Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Seely, Colonel
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Shackleton, David James
Gulland, John W. Macpherson, J. T. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Gurdon, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Brampton M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Silcock, Thomas Ball
Haldane. Rt. Hon. Richard B. M'Micking, Major G. Simon, John Allsebrook
Hall, Frederick Markham, Arthur Basil Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Spicer, Sir Albert
Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Massie, J. Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire)
Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) Masterman, C. F. G. Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Micklem, Nathaniel Summerbell, T.
Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Montagu, Hon. E. S. Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Montgomery, H. G. Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Myer, Horatio Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Haworth, Arthur A. Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) Tomkinson, James
Hedges, A. Paget Norman, Sir Henry Toulmin, George
Hemmerde, Edward George Norton, Capt. Cecil William Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Parker, James (Halifax) Verney, F. W.
Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) Paulton, James Mellor Vivian, Henry
Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Higham, John Sharp Pirie, Duncan V. Waring, Walter
Hobart, Sir Robert Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Radford, G. H. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Hodge, John Raphael, Herbert H. White, Sir George (Norfolk)
Hope, W. H. B. (Somerset, N.) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro') White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)
Horridge, Thomas Gardner Rees, J. D. White, Sir Luke (York. E.R.)
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Hudson, Walter Richardson, A. Wiles, Thomas
Isaacs, Rufus Daniel Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Wilkie, Alexander
Jardine, Sir J. Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull. W.)
Jenkins, J. Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Johnson, John (Gateshead) Robertson, J. M.(Tyneside) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)
Jones, Leif (Appleby) Robinson, S. Wilson, W. T. (Weathoughton)
Kekewich, Sir George Robson, Sir William Snowden
Kelley, George D. Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.
Kincaid-Smith, Captain M. Roe, Sir Thomas Joseph Pease and the Master of
King, Alfred John (Knutstord) Rogers, F. E. Newman Elibank.
Lambert, George Rose, Charles Day
Ashley, W. W. Hamilton, Marquess of Remnant, James Farquharson
Balcarres, Lord Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Renton, Leslie
Baldwin, Stanley Hay, Hon. Claude George Renwick, George
Baabury, Sir Frederick George Helmsley, Viscount Ronaldshay, Earl of
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hills, J. W. Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Bignold, Sir Arthur Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Salter, Arthur Clavell
Cave, George Kilbride, Denis Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lonsdale, John Brownlee Stanier, Beville
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Lupton, Arnold Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Clark, George Smith Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Valentia, Viscount
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)
Courthope, G. Loyd Mildmay, Francis Bingham Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Doughty, Sir George Morpeth, Viscount Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
Fletcher, J. S. Oddy, John James Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Forster. Henry William Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) Younger, George
Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Peel, Hon. W. (Taunton)
Gordon, J. Ratcliff, Major R. F. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.
Gretton, John Reddy, M. Lane-Fox and Mr. Rowland Hunt.
Guinness, W. E. (Bury St. Edmunds)

Main question put accordingly, and agreed to.

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