§ The PRIME MINISTERmoved, "That the entry of Wednesday, 14th July, 1909, that the Chairman called the attention of the Committee to the grossly disorderly conduct of Mr. Thorne, Member for South-West Ham, and, in pursuance of Standing Order No. 20, ordered him to withdraw immediately from the House during the remainder of this day's sitting, and that he withdrew accordingly, be expunged from the Journals of the House."
The Motion which stands in my name on the Paper is of an unusual character, and would not be put forward unless under very exceptional circumstances, with, I think, the general concurrence of the House, and as an act of justice to one of our own Members. The facts, which are material, are very simple, and may be very shortly stated. In the course of our Debates a couple of nights ago the Noble Lord sitting opposite (Earl Winterton), mistaking, as I understand, the origin of an interruption made, not by way of interjection or aside, but by a formal address to the Chair, a most offensive and injurious imputation upon the character and conduct of another hon. Member. It must be taken that that imputation was wholly without foundation. In fact, the Noble Lord himself, at a later stage of the same evening, not only withdrew it, but apologised for having made it. The hon. Member against whom the imputation was directed, under what, I think, we must all admit, to have been very grievous provocation, not only repudiated it, but did so in language which was undoubtedly not Parliamentary. Thereupon the Chairman did what he was obliged to do under the Rules of the House: he asked the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the un-Parliamentary expression, and upon his declining to do so the Chairman, as he was compelled by his duty to do, directed the hon. Member to withdraw for the remiander of the sitting. I wish 2482 to make it perfectly clear that in submitting the Motion that I am now submitting to the House that no reflection of any sort or kind is conveyed or intended as to the conduct of the Chair. We shall all agree that the facts have only to be stated to show that the Chairman had no alternative but to take the course he did. I certainly, as Leader of the House, should be the last person to join directly or indirectly, in any Motion or proceeding which would be construed as impugning the authority and impartiality of the Chair. But the facts being as I have stated—and I think I have said nothing which is a matter of controversy—we are confronted with what I conceive to be an injustice to one of our own number. We have here recorded in the Journal, in the entry which I am about to ask the House to expunge, that in consequence of grossly disorderly conduct the hon. Member for West Ham was directed to withdraw. Such an entry, standing, as it must, unexplained and unaccounted for in the Journal, might well be regarded as a permanent imputation on the character of the hon. Member, and in some uninstructed quarters might give some sort of colour to the notion that the charge had some foundation in fact.
In these circumstances—and the Chairman concurs in the course I am asking the House to take—I have thought it right to adopt this very unusual procedure, and to ask the House to expunge this misleading, though accurate, entry from its Journal. If the House takes that course, it will be showing itself, as it always has done, and I trust it always will do, the vigilant and even jealous guardian of the character and reputation of all its Members.
§ Mr. A. J. BALFOURThe right hon. Gentleman has based his Motion upon a most legitimate desire which he and the rest of the House have for making it absolutely clear, in the most explicit and formal way, that the charge originally levelled against the hon. Member concerned by my noble Friend has absolutely no basis or foundation in fact. So far I am quite sure there is not a single man in the House, wherever he may sit, who would not regard with satisfaction any such action which the House might take, and associate himself most gladly with any method of obviating misconception or injustice to the hon. Gentleman who was, unhappily, the object of this unfounded accusation. I do not think that anybody can quarrel, or is likely to 2483 quarrel, with the narrative of fact which the Prime Minister has given. I was present all through the unfortunate episode. Everybody deeply deplores that an unfounded charge against the character of anyone should be made, whether in the form of an aside, or in the form of an appeal to the Chairman, or in whatever form. If I remember rightly there was some slight interruption in that quarter of the House on that particular night in question. I desire to say that, in my opinion, hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway have very frequently—usually—not merely obeyed the orders of this House, but set an example, which might well be followed in every part of the House, of listening, without interruption, to arguments and opinions from which they profoundly dissent. If I may be allowed to express my own personal opinion, I have observed with regret that—I think I am not wrong in saying in the course of this Parliament—that the habit of running commentary upon the speeches and arguments which are being addressed to the House, though not ill-intended, has been a growing habit; I think it is an unfortunate one, and I must say that of the offenders of all parties in this House I think the hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway are the least offenders in that particular respect. I shall certainly not separate myself from the Leader of the House, who is responsible for the conduct of the affairs of the House, and who, I imagine, has consulted, as I have not done, the Chairman of Committees, and, possibly, Mr. Speaker, in the action he has proposed. I am sure he must have considered this point: Had this been a matter between my Noble Friend and the hon. Gentleman who was the subject of this unfortunate and unhappy charge, everybody would, of course, take part—as my Noble Friend himself would —with the person who was provoked. Everybody must admit that the provocation was of such a character that, human nature, being what it is, it is impossible to pass, I will not say harsh judgment, but any judgment at all, upon even a very violent expression of indignation—natural and justifiable—against this gross though unintentional misrepresentation.
But I do not understand the entry in the Journals of the House had anything whatever to do with the relations between the Noble Lord and the hon. Member. It is, as I understand it, merely a question of 2484 the Order of the House. As regards the Order of the House, the Prime Minister has most truly observed that not only that the Chairman of the Committee did nothing that was open to comment, but that absolutely no other choice was open to him than to do exactly what he did. Everybody —hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway would be the first to admit it—will agree that the expression, under whatever provocation—we all admit its gravity—was one that ought to have been withdrawn. The Chairman was bound to ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw it, and, as the hon. Gentleman refused to withdraw it, he had no alternative whatever but to request the hon. Gentleman to withdraw from the House. I should wish that the whole episode could be expunged altogether from our memories. I must honestly say that even if the thing stands as it is, after the public statements made on the night, and the public statements made to-day, that no slur on the character of the hon. Gentleman is possible, except the single slur that he did not obey the ruling of the Chair. That, of course, is a fact; no other suggestion could be made at all derogatory to the character of the hon. Gentleman as a Member of this House. But I confess I should have hesitated had I been in the right hon. Gentleman's place to ask that that Order should be expunged from the Journals of the House, which was by the admission of everybody in the House, an Order representing that the Committee, or the Chairman, did what he had no choice but to do. I am far from thinking that either Mr. Speaker or Mr. Chairman are other than the servants of the House; that, of course, is absolutely true. But it is perfectly within the right of any Gentleman in this House to call in question, by a regular and well-understood process, the action of Mr. Speaker or Mr. Chairman. But when there is no question of criticising or calling into question action, which everybody admits was right, when the hon. Gentleman whose action is in question at this moment, or was on Wednesday night, would be the first to admit that, however justifiable or excusable was the language he used under the bitter provocation he-received, he did violate the Rules of order, and that the Chairman had no other choice —when all this is admitted I confess I should have thought it was a very strange and unprecedented course that we should expunge the Order which merely records what the Chairman did. I may say I am in hearty agreement with the Prime Minister 2485 that everything we can do should be done to prevent any consequences to the hon. Member, resulting not from his disobedience to the Chair, but from the unfortunate and unfounded charge made against him, and if the right hon. Gentleman sees no other way of doing it except this, I shall not disturb the general harmony of our proceedings; but I confess I regret it, and I should like some alteration or Amendment which, while it left unimpugned the action of the Chairman, who was undoubtedly right by the admission of everybody, would render it perfectly clear that, in the opinion of the whole House, the original charge out of which this unfortunate incident occurred had no basis in fact. The hon. Gentleman the subject of the charge is owed not only full reparation by my Noble Friend, but any such additional reparation as is in the power of this House to give. That is the view I take of this rather unhappy episode. I do not think I can say more than that. If the right hon. Gentleman does not take the view that I have with great respect, and without offence to anybody, laid before the House; if he thinks these observations of mine are not of such a character as should modify the action he proposes to take, I shall not stand in the way; but I confess quite frankly to the House I do not like these absolute innovations in our method of dealing with the action of the Chairman when we are all agreed it was quite correct.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI quite recognise the force of the criticism the right hon. Gentleman has made in the form of our procedure, but it appeared to me and to my colleagues, and I think it did to the Chairman, that this is one of the cases in which strict logic might be waived in view of the general feeling in every part of the House. Strictly, logically I admit this course is not one the House ought to take, but the hon. Gentleman had been made the subject of injustice, and the House itself ought to take some opportunity of expunging from its Journals a record which hereafter, if left unexplained, might be regarded as a reflection upon the hon. Member.
§ Mr. G. N. BARNESI have no wish unnecessarily to prolong the proceedings for a moment, nor have I any intention of making a speech upon the matter; but I desire, just in a word or two in the first place, to thank the Prime Minister for having taken a just view of the situation, and for having so promptly acted upon it. 2486 I should like further to thank the Leader of the Opposition, if I may be allowed to do so, for the very handsome way in which he has spoken of my colleagues upon these benches, and to express the hope that we shall continue to merit his goodwill, and to act in such a way as to maintain the best traditions of the House. I desire to associate myself also with the expression of regret that the Chairman did find it necessary to take such action in consequence of any language used, and which, I am sure, nobody would seek to justify in any circumstances. But I desire to put in a plea on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, and to remind the House that when he made use of that language, and when the Chairman took the action which was taken, the imputation that had been made upon my hon. Friend had not been withdrawn. I know that in a few minutes afterwards—I am quite willing to give the Noble Lord all the credit which is his due—the imputation was withdrawn and an apology was made; but by that time my hon. Friend had disappeared, and therefore I want to put in a plea on behalf of my hon. Friend that when he was dealing with the imputation it not only had not been withdrawn, but it had been repeated, and repeated in a more offensive form. I merely mention that in justification of the language used. I acknowledge, with thanks, what has been done by the Prime Minister, and which will be assented to, I hope, by the whole House, and having regard to that I can only say, so far as I am concerned, I advise my hon. Friend, now that the Motion is to be expunged from the Journals of the House, that he should do the right thing himself and withdraw these words, and so end a scene which, I venture to-say, we all agree ought to be wiped out,. not only from the Journals of the House, but, so far as possible, from the memories of all of us.
§ Mr. T. P. O'CONNORI hope the House will allow me, on behalf of my hon. Friends around me, to say how cordially and entirely we associate ourselves with the Motion made by the Prime Minister. May I say, I think it was rather unfortunate, when the Noble Lord made the offensive observation, that he was not called upon to withdraw it before any penal action was taken against my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham. I think if that had been done the noble Lord would probably have withdrawn, and the incident would have come to an end. This 2487 is not the first occasion on which an incident of this kind has arisen. I am perfectly sure that if my right hon. Friend the present Prime Minister had been Leader of the House when the incident to which I am about to refer occurred he would have seen that minorities in this House were protected on all occasions. I remember an occasion when the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. John Dillon) was tempted into a very strong and disorderly observation by a very gross insult—an insult which was never withdrawn, and the expulsion of my hon. Friend was never expunged from the Order Paper. I hope if these incidents occur again the same Rule will be applied to Irish Members of Parliament as is moat properly applied to my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham. May I take advantage of my long years in this House to venture upon this observation: that having now seen many Parliaments, I believe every man who is impartial and broad-minded will agree with me in the statement that the presence of the party to which the hon. Member for West Ham belongs in this House has added to the dignity, seriousness, and human sympathy of the House. Finally, I wish to throw out a suggestion to the Prime Minister. This incident was the result of an all-night sitting. All-night sittings are bound to lead to ebullitions of temper, and are calculated to reduce business in this House to an athletic rather than an intellectual conflict. I throw no blame upon one side or the other, but may I suggest to the Prime Minister, if the House would meet at 10 or 10.30, and conduct its business to midnight, and then end, not only would business proceed more rapidly, but also more decorously.