*CAPTAIN FABERI beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state whether a man of over seventy years of age, having £800 stock in Consols producing an income of £20 a year, is eligible as an old-age pensioner for 5s. a week; and whether a man in receipt of a compassionate allowance of 13s. a week, which he has received for a year, is not eligible for any old-age pension whatever.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE,) Carnarvon BoroughsOn the assumption that the claimant has no other means, the Answer to the first Question is in the affirmative. The Answer to the second would, under the provisions of Section 4 of the Old-Age Pensions Act, depend upon whether there was, or was not, a reasonable expectation that the claimant would continue to receive the allowance during the succeeding year.
*CAPTAIN FABERCannot the right hon. Gentleman see his way to put a man who has been working all his life on an equal footing with those who happen to possess £800 worth of Consols?
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEThat is a very conjectural case, and one that is unlikely to happen.
§ [No Answer was returned.]
§ MR. STAVELEY-HILL (Staffordshire, Kingswinford)I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the receipt of sick pay by a member of a friendly society will be taken into account in considering the income of 937 the person under the Old-Age Pensions Act.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEThe matter is one for the pension committee to determine in accordance with the provisions of Section 4 (1) (a) of the Act upon the facts of each case.
§ MR. STAVELEY-HILLWill instructions be given to the pension committees on this point?
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI must ask for notice of that.
§ MR. STAVELEY-HILLWill the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of obtaining a decision at once on this very important matter?
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEEach case will be decided by the pension committee as it arises on the facts.
§ MR. STAVELEY-HILLI beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the conflicting instructions issued by the Local Government Board and the Commissioners of Inland Revenue with reference to the areas of the subcommittees and the districts of pension officers under the Old-Age Pensions Act; and whether he proposes to take any steps to bring these instructions into agreement with one another.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI am not aware of any conflict. The administrative arrangements which have been adopted do not require that the areas served by pension officers should be co-terminous with those served by the pension committees, nor is it intended that this should invariably—or even usually—be the case.
§ MR. WALTER LONGI beg to ask Mr. Chancel of the Exchequer whether, having regard to the fact that under No. 35 of the Old-Age Pensions Regulations, 1908, a great deal of information will be required from boards of guardians and their officers as to whether relief has been given to applicants for old-age pensions, and also as to the mode of life of many 938 such applicants, he will arrange that provision be made for payment for such information from the national Exchequer, as the Local Government Board have stated in a circular letter, addressed to boards of guardians, and dated 10th October, 1908, that it is understood that the pensions officers have no funds out of which such payments can be made.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI am not prepared to propose a grant from the Exchequer for this purpose. In view of the enormous saving which will ultimately accrue to local rates from the diminution in the charge for poor relief to be expected from the inauguration of the pension scheme, I think it will be generally conceded that the ratepayer may reasonably be asked to bear the slight expenses incidental to supplying the information required.
§ LORD R. CECIL (Marylebone, E.)asked whether the effect of that arrangement would not be that while the pension officer was a representative of the Treasury he would receive payment from the ratepayers?
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI do not think so.
§ LORD R. CECILI beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is intended to issue instructions to the pension officers directing them in reporting on the means of a claimant for an old-age pension not to take into consideration the fact that he occupies a cottage at a rent less than the full rack rent; and, if not, will he explain why.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEPension officers have been instructed in calculating the means of a claimant to take into account, as provided in the Act, the yearly value of any benefit or privilege enjoyed by him. In regard to questions of rent such as that referred to by the noble Lord, the circumstances of the different cases are likely to be so widely divergent that it would not be practical to issue more specific instructions.
§ LORD R. CECILHave any specific instructions been given to the pension 939 officers with regard to the valuation of rent?
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI do not think there are any specific instructions bearing on that point.
§ MR. HAROLD COX (Preston)I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Board of Inland Revenue has instructed the pension officers to take into account, in estimating the income of claimants, the value of free board, lodging, or clothing; whether the execution of this instruction will involve meticulous inquiries into the precise value of ordinary articles of food and clothing; and, if so, whether he proposes to direct the Board of Inland Revenue to issue a fresh set of secret instructions to pension officers to ignore food and clothing of less value than the equivalent of a capital sum of £30, so that poor people may not be deprived of their pensions by the meticulous inquiries of pension officers.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEThe Answer to the first Question is in the affirmative; that to the second in the negative; the third does not arise.
§ MR. HAROLD COXDo I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that it is the duty of the pension officers to take into account the value of board and lodging, but that it is not their duty to make any inquiry as to the value?
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEThat is certainly not what I said.
§ MR. HAROLD COXI think it is.
§ MR. HAROLD COXI beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the general powers which a public department possesses to direct its own affairs would enable the Board of Inland Revenue to issue instructions to pension officers to report against the claim of any persons who were deemed by that Board to be unfit for pensions; and what means a pension committee has of compelling a pension officer to report in accordance with the terms of the Act instead of in obedience to the orders of the department.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGE;I presume that it would be within the power of the Board of Inland Revenue to issue such instructions to pension officers, but I would remind my hon. friend that the Board would be responsible for any action taken by their officers in accordance with their instructions, for which I, in my turn, should be answerable to Parliament. The pension officer has, under Section 7 (1) (b) of the Act and No. 11 (2) of the Regulations, a statutory duty "to procure any further information which it is in his power to procure in reference to any matter to be considered by the committee" if the committee require him to do so, and it would not be open to him to plead official instructions as an excuse for the neglect of that duty.
§ MR. HAROLD COXasked whether the pension committee could dismiss the officer if he disobeyed the law.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that statutory obligations were imposed upon him, and the officer was responsible to the Minister for refusing to carry out the law, while Parliament could call the Minister to account.
§ MR. HAROLD COXThat is just what I should like to do.
§ LORD R. CECILHow is the House to make the Minister responsible unless the instructions are laid upon the Table of the House?
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEThe Question can be raised on the Minister's salary.
*MR. HERBERT (Buckinghamshire, Wycombe)I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has caused any estimate to be made of the additional cost of old-age pensions due to the exclusion from calculation of the means of applicants of furniture up to £30, in accordance with the departmental instructions to pension officers, above what would have been the cost as sanctioned by Parliament under Section 4 of the Old-Age Pensions Act, which requires all furniture to be taken into account in calculating the means of applicants.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI have no statistics of the value of furniture possessed by claimants to old-age pensions, and the original estimates of the scheme were based on the assumption that any property of this character, of which account would be taken in calculating the means of an applicant, would be so small in amount as not to affect appreciably the cost of the scheme.
*MR. HERBERTI beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will issue instructions to pension officers to keep a record showing the number of persons who become eligible for old-age pensions by virtue of the exclusion from the calculation of their means of furniture under £30 in value who would not have been qualified if all furniture had been taken into account in accordance with Section 4 of the Old-Age Pensions Act, the number of persons who receive pensions at a higher rate, and the total additional cost.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGENo, Sir. The cost of making the detailed valuations, which would be necessary in the case of every claimant, for compiling such a record, would be considerable, and I should not feel justified in asking Parliament to vote money for the purpose.
*MR. HERBERTWill not the pension officers be obliged to make that valuation in any event? If they are to carry out the instructions and disregard the first £30 worth of furniture, and reckon the balance, how can they do that without making a valuation?