§ MR. FELLI beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if the number of applications for pensions received already exceed the total number of pensions anticipated in the figures placed before Parliament on the passing of the Act.
§ MR. HOBHOUSEThe total number of applications received up to 24th October was 562,171. No estimate was made of the probable number of applications, but the number of original pensioners was estimated by my right hon. friend in the course of the Second Reading debate before the introduction of the sliding scale, at 572,000. The adoption of the sliding scale was expected to raise the total to well over 600,000. On the other hand it was not expected that the full number would come on to the list of pensioners until some time after the beginning of the year 1909.
§ MR. SNOWDEN (Blackburn)I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if the pension officers are instructed to regard a certain portion of the sum paid by a son or daughter for board and lodgings to an aged parent as profit, and to take it into account as income received by the parent, and whether, if the pension officers have such instructions, these instructions entitle them to take 2s. as profit to the parent out of a total sum of 8s. a week paid for board and lodging for an adult daughter.
§ MR. HOBHOUSEPension officers have instructions to regard a portion of the sum paid by an adult son or daughter to an aged parent for board and lodging as part of the means of the parent only where profit actually arises and to the extent of such profit. Each case has to be considered upon the facts and the final decision rests, of course, with the pension committee, subject to appeal to the Local Government Board. The proportion (if any) of a payment of 8s. a week by an adult daughter which might be regarded as profit in any particular case would depend upon the standard of comfort in the household and the cost of living in the locality in which the case occurred.
§ MR. SNOWDENDoes the hon. Gentleman consider that any decent standard of comfort can be secured for 6s. a week?
§ MR. HOBHOUSE8s., not 6s.
§ MR. FORSTER (Kent, Sevenoaks)How is the standard of comfort for the home arrived at?
§ MR. HOBHOUSEBy a consideration of the circumstances of the family.
MR. PIKE PEASEI beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer why the financial instructions of the Treasury to pension committees and sub-committees, which were laid upon the Table on 16th October, have not been printed; why the order to print these instructions which was given on 16th October was withdrawn on 19th October; and whether these instructions may now be printed for the information of the House.
§ MR. HOBHOUSEThe financial instructions issued by the Treasury on 20th August for the guidance of pension committees and sub-committees are not "regulations" within the meaning of Section 10 (3) of the Old-Age Pensions Act, and could not, therefore, be laid before the House under that Act. It was, however, intended to present them by Command of His Majesty. On this being explained to the authorities of the House, the order to print was discharged, as the House does not give the order to print Command Papers. The printing of the Instructions as a Command Paper has been delayed because it was expected that they would at once be superseded by amended instructions, but the revision, the scope of which has since been widened, will take longer than was anticipated. They are, therefore, being circulated this week, for the information of the House, in the form in which they were originally issued.
§ MR. HOBHOUSEWithin the next week.
§ LORD R. CECIL (Marylebone, E.)Why are they printed as a Command Paper while the instructions to pension officers are withheld from the knowledge of the House?
§ MR. HOBHOUSEThe instructions to the officers are confidential as between the Department and its servants.
MR. PIKE PEASEI beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer under what 1058 authority the Treasury have called upon the clerk to the appointing council to perform duties and to correspond with the Treasury under the Old-Age Pensions Act; whether any provision exists for remunerating such clerk, and, if not, how it is proposed to remunerate him; and whether instructions of the Treasury, as distinguished from regulations under the Act, have any validity or binding force.
§ MR. HOBHOUSEThe duty of accounting for the expenses of pension committees falls upon the appointing councils under Regulation 25, and the instructions were addressed to the clerk to the appointing council as the responsible officer of the council. No provision is made in the Old-Age Pensions Act for any expenses incurred by the appointing councils, and if the council should think it necessary to assign to the clerk any special remuneration in respect of this duty, such remuneration would be payable out of the council's fund. The Treasury Financial Instructions have validity only in so far as they determine under Section 10 (4) of the Act the amount which may be charged to moneys provided by Parliament on account of the expenses of pension committees and the conditions subject to which amounts advanced to meet such expenses are to be repaid. The present arrangements will remain in force only until the approaching annulment of Regulation 25 takes effect.
MR. PIKE PEASEBut is it not the fact that there is no provision for the remuneration of these clerks?
§ MR. HOBHOUSEI have dealt with that in my Answer.
§ MR. SNOWDENI beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that at the rate at which the claims for old-age pensions are now being settled a considerable number of the claims already made will be undecided on 1st January; and can he give an assurance that all persons claiming before the end of November shall, if their claims are finally established, not lose any weekly pension on account of administrative delays.
§ MR. HOBHOUSEMy right hon. friend's information is that very good progress is being made, and he sees no reason, as matters at present stand, for thinking that a considerable number of the claims already made will be undecided by 1st January.
§ MR. SNOWDENWill the hon. Gentleman answer the latter part of the Question?
§ MR. HOBHOUSEThat is a matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I will consult my right hon. friend upon it.
§ LORD R. CECILIs the hon. Gentleman aware that in London, at any rate, there is not the least prospect of the pensions being adjudicated upon and the pension-books delivered before 1st January?
§ MR. HOBHOUSEThat is not the information which reaches the Chancellor of the Exchequer from the responsible Department, though it may be the opinion of the noble Lord.
§ LORD R. CECILIt is an opinion founded upon information.