§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
§ Clause 37:
§ *MR. BOTTOMLEY (Hackney, S.)moved the omission of subsection (1) of the clause, and in doing so, reminded the Committee that so far as the club portion of the Bill was concerned, the position was that yesterday the Committee determined that the registration of every club must be annually renewed, and that every new club must also apply for registration in accordance with the provisions of Section 36, but both the renewal of registration and the granting of now registration were to be subject to certain rights of objection, which rights were governed by Clause 37, now before the Committee, and which were practically comprised in subsection (1) the omission of which he rose to move. Subsection (1) provided that any person might lodge a notice of objection to an application for registration, or for the renewal of the registration of a club, on the ground that the club was used, or was to be used, mainly as a drinking club, or on any of the grounds mentioned in Section 28 of the Licensing Act, 1902, as amended by this Act. This was a power so far-reaching and so little considered that perhaps the Minister responsible for the Bill that day might see his way considerably to modify the clause. First of all, the subsection gave the right to any person, man, woman, or child, a person from any part of the United Kingdom, to object to the registration of a new club, or to the re-registration of an old club, and he was sure that if he suggested that such a power embodied the apotheosis of the most loathsome excrescence of our judicial system, i.e., the common informer, the 1426 Solicitor-General would favourably consider the idea of considerably restricting the power. He noticed from the paper that there was a general consensus of opinion in all parts of the House that the power proposed to be given to any irresponsible person to interfere with the proposed formation of a club, or the re-registration of an old club, was something too extravagant to be tolerated. He pointed out that under this provision no club, however well conducted, could be sure of freedom from embarrassment every January. They might have the Licensed Victuallers' Protection Association, out of a feeling of injustice or grievance at the treatment of clubs as compared with public-houses, putting up somebody in every district every January to object to the registration or re-registration of a club. On the other hand, they might have the United Kingdom Alliance on grounds of temperance putting up somebody to object to the registration or re-registration of a club. What would be the result? Every time there was an objection it must involve a loss of a day's work to every member of the committee of a working men's club, and the attendance of the secretary and other officials before the Court for the purpose of justifying the registration. Although he was aware that by subsequent provisions an unsuccessful objector might be made liable for costs, there was no provision compelling them to make a deposit, and the result might be that the officials of a club would be called upon to give up one or two days work in attending the Court to justify the claim for registration or re-registration, and have no security that the expenses would be provided for by the objector if the objection failed. That was a very substantial objection, which he respectfully urged upon the attention of the Solicitor-General. Any party quite irresponsible, and having no interest in the district or in the club, might not only object to the club on the ground, if any, of the disqualifications contained in Section 28 of the Act of 1902, but under this Act he might object to its registration on the ground that it was intended to be a club used mainly for drinking purposes. But it was almost incredible that the draftsmen could have put such words into an Act of Parliament. How was any objector to form the opinion that a club was intended to be used as a 1427 drinking club? The objector could not expect to find it in the rules of the club, and was it not putting great embarrassment on every club that it should be put under the obligation every January of satisfying the Court that it neither was used, nor intended to be used, for drinking purposes? It was only the most respectable clubs which would suffer under this section. Discreditable clubs, knowing their character, would not trouble to dispute the allegations which might be well founded, but this clause gave scope for the growth of a professional class of objectors throughout the length and breadth of the land who might harass or embarrass every respectable club, and put upon it enormous expense and inconvenience, and then, before the case came on, withdraw the objection, if the objector could make satisfactory terms with the committee of the club to save them the inconvenience of attending the Court. He thought this was a most dangerous subsection. He was speaking in no hostility to the provisions generally of reasonable control over clubs. But he was suggesting to the Committee that they should not give the right to anybody in the Kingdom who perhaps had no interest in a district or a club, to allege in open Court that a club proposed to be registered or re-registered was intended to be used for drinking purposes. If they gave such a right every Mrs. Grundy, Mrs. Chant, Chadband, and Stiggins in the country would have full power to jeopardise the existence of every club. The provisions of the Act of 1902 were surely sufficient to protect the welfare and reputability of any club. If this clause was allowed to stand, the new year would be made hideous by the opposition of the enemies of clubs. He wished to impress upon the Committee, and especially upon hon. Members on the Ministerial side of the House who took such a keen interest in this question from the temperance point of view, that they could not put a better weapon into the hands of the licensed victualler who considered himself aggrieved by the immunity of clubs from police supervision than by inviting him every January to harass and embarrass clubs either himself or by a nominee by objecting to their registration. The best clubs in the Kingdom—and he spoke as the representative of a constituency which contained perhaps more clubs than any other 1428 constituency—had in connection with them a variety of sub-clubs providing for sick benefit, athletics, and other things. How could any security be obtained on the part of the sub-clubs if every January they might be embarrassed in the way he had indicated? If there was to be the right of objection let the Government say that the person objecting should be a person in some responsible position or having some interest in the matter, and let him be liable to make a deposit in Court as evidence of his bona fides. The Government had given many evidences of their desire to accede to the suggestions of the Committee, and he hoped that in this matter they would make one more concession. He thought it was Zimmermann who said—
The wisest of men need never be afraid of saying he has changed his mind, which is simply another way of saying 'I am wiser to-day than I was yesterday.'Now that they had the wisest of all Governments in power he asked them to give due weight to the suggestion he had made. He begged to move.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 18, line 22, to leave out subsection (1).—{Mr. Bottomley.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'Any' stand part of the clause."
§ THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir S. EVANS,) Glamorganshire, Midsaid the Government had had reason to change their mind and where they had done so they offered no objection at all to make a change in the Bill. In regard to this subsection the mind of the Government was that it should be in the Bill and they remained of that mind still. The subsection was absolutely necessary. The object of having an annual renewal of registration of clubs was that there might be some opportunity of stating objections to them. That was the whole point which was properly raised by this Amendment. But he was aware that the speech of the hon. Member was based upon the provision with regard to the persons by whom and the circumstances under which objections were to be made. There were various amendments on the Paper with regard to the persons, and so on, and he thought these matters might perhaps be better discussed when the Amendments 1429 had been reached. He would refer incidentally to one or two of the matters mentioned by the hon. Member, but he would not attempt to forestal a discussion of the particular Amendments. The hon. Member said that "anyperson" meant any man, woman, or child. He thought the hon. Member was totally wrong in thinking that people acting under this Act of Parliament would be more unreasonable than they had been in their action under other statutes. It might be said that they would be so, but it was found that when a Bill became law nothing of the kind had been the practice. He thought that since the Licensing Act of 1828 was passed, and certainly since the Act of 1872 was passed, any person could object to the renewal of any public-house or hotel licence. There were 90,000 of those licences and there were scores of thousands of them coming up for renewal every year, and although exactly the same right of objection as that provided for in this subsection existed in regard to those licences it was found that nobody suffered from that, even although the man who did object to a renewal was not subject to the penalties which would be imposed under this Act if an objection failed.
§ MR. BOTTOMLEYIs not that limited to the past conduct of the licensee with regard to the management of the house?
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid an objector had the right generally to oppose the renewal of a licence on any ground he liked. What had happened in connection with the licensing Acts afforded ample evidence that the people of this country did not act unreasonably, whatever their theoretical power might be. He had no hesitation in saying that apart from the provision which the Government had made to prevent such embarassment as the hon. Member had indicated, nothing of the kind would happen with regard to the renewal of the registration of respectable clubs.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN (Worcestershire, E.)said that the Motion made by the hon. Member was to omit subsection (1), but the Question put by the Chairman was that the word "any" stand part What they were discussing was whether any person ought to have 1430 the right to make those objections. He was not quite certain what was the attitude of the hon. Member on Clause 36, passed the previous night. He thought the hon. Member voted against it. He took a different line and voted with the Government. He spoke, therefore, as one who was not hostile to a well-reasoned and well-founded attempt, if it could be shown to be so, to secure the good conduct of a club, or the suppression of a bad club without unduly harassing clubs of a kind which none of them wished to abolish. He submitted that it was wholly unnecessary for the purpose of securing the suppression of bad clubs, or the taking of objections in cases whore they ought reasonably to be taken, to put the power into the hands of "any person." He objected to both the reasons which the hon. and learned Gentleman gave for the course the Government had taken. The hon. and learned Gentleman said, in the first place, that though it might be argued that the unreasonable actions could be taken under the provisions of this clause, in practice they would not be taken. The hon. and learned Gentleman knew that such evil consequences might follow or that they might be theoretically educed from the terms of the subsection. But only a little time ago the hon. and learned Gentleman was telling the Committee that it was necessary to guard against the action of temperance faddists.
§ SIR S. EVANSIt was not I who said it.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINThen it was the Prime Minister that said it—a higher authority.
§ SIR S. EVANSIt was the Leader of the Opposition.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he did not know whether the phrase was first patented by his right hon. friend beside him or by the Prime Minister, but the Prime Minister speaking from the Government bench in defence of one of the Government proposals, said that it was a necessary protection against extreme temperance faddists.
§ *MR. LEIF JONES (Westmorland, Appleby)That was in inverted commas.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINWhat did it matter if it were in inverted commas? There were extreme temperance faddists, and the Prime Minister thought it was necessary in certain cases to protect those who were open to their attacks. He himself thought it was necessary to protect respectable bona fide clubs against the mischievous interference by those faddists in the present case. The hon. and learned Gentleman said: "Look at the facts; it is possible for any person to object to a public-house in terms of greater immunity than I have inserted in this clause." He admitted that they had greater immunity in making objections to a public-house; but he utterly denied the imputation in the speech of the hon and learned Gentleman that that power had never been used improperly, vexatiously, and in the way of persecution of people against whom no serious allegation could be made. He was not at all indisposed to support the Government in providing that there should be reasonable opportunity for responsible people to raise objections against the re-registration of an old club or the registration of a new one; but he could not go with them if they insisted in giving this power to any irresponsible meddlesome person who thought it was his business to intervene in the matter. Anything that could be done by the exercise of this power could be done if the use of the power was confined to the police. If they gave the police the right to intervene it would enable any person who thought he was aggrieved to lay his case before the police, and if the police saw any good grounds for the objection they could take action. That would provide greater safeguards against anything like a scandalously frivolous objection, and it would not expose bona fide clubs, with committees of working men, engaged all day, and very likely with no secretary or competent person to represent them in Court, to being haled and harried before the Justices without any good cause at all. He submitted that this matter was germane to the Amendment to leave out the word "any."
§ SIR S. EVANSA superintendent of police would be included in "any person."
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsubmitted that his argument was germane 1432 to the question put from the Chair. He suggested to the hon. and learned Gentleman that he would facilitate business by at once expressing the intentions of the Government.
§ *SIR FRANCIS CHANNING (Northamptonshire, E.)said he wished to call the attention of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen in all parts of the House to the fact that this subsection in the Bill was identical with the clause passed by the Conservative Ministry in the 28th Section of the Licensing Act of 1902, which embodied all the conditions the violation of which led to the extinction of a club, and the withdrawal from registration. After the decision of the Committee last night to which the party opposite assented, it seemed to him that it would be ludicrous for them to go back on the Act of 1902, which gave the same jurisdiction as in this clause, and the same right to any single person whatever to make a complaint in writing, and to set in motion the machinery for striking a club off the register. He submitted that on the broad ground of common sense, and on the ground of following the precedent of 1902, it would be absurd to adopt now any other procedure. It should be remembered that all those Amendments which now stood on the Paper had been put down under the supposition that the Government were proceeding to hand over the clubs to the licensing justices, whose procedure was different and who would not take evidence on oath. But the Amendments which the Government had since accepted, insuring a judicial procedure on oath with costs against an unreasonable complainant, doubly covered the case of all the objections raised, and it would be the height of unwisdom to go back on the course adopted in 1902. He hoped the Government would remain firm to their own Bill.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOUR (City of London)said he did not wish to add anything in the main question to what had been said by his right hon. friend, but he hoped the Committee would not be misled by this reference to the Act of 1902. The hon. Member opposite had spoken as if they on that side of the House were more or fess bound by what he called the 1902 precedent. The Act of 1902 was no 1433 precedent at all. In the first place that Act did not deal with the prospective action of clubs, or as if anybody would come forward and say, "I think this is going to be the future action of the club, and I do not think you ought to allow it to start." If they were going to give such increased powers to the objector they ought to consider more carefully who the objector was to be. The Government had laid it down in the succeeding clauses that there was to be an annual revision of the registration. The whole case was to be brought up every year and objectors were to be invited. That really made a great difference. If it did not make a difference why did the Government fight over it last night? If they did not think it would invite criticism of the club and bring it into focus and throw an annual responsibility on the world at large to deal with these clubs, why did they spend the whole of the previous night in fighting over the question? The Government believed that by making the registration annual they were adding to the efficiency of the machinery by which revision of clubs was to be carried on. They might be right, and he rather thought they were right, but whether it was right or wrong it was certainly more stringent, and when they were making such powers more stringent and making it easier for members of the public to object, he really thought they were perfectly free to argue, as no doubt his hon. friends would argue, that, as they encouraged objections, they ought to take every precaution that the objections should not be frivolous.
§ *SIR J. DICKSON-POYNDER (Wiltshire, Chippenham)did not think that any serious objection could be taken to the proposal of the Government, as proper protection had been provided. The object they had in view was to get at the club mainly used as a drinking club, because there was no doubt that correspondingly as they decreased licensed houses they would have to allow outlets in some other direction for drinking facilities to be granted. Therefore he thought it was very important now that they were drawing this Act of Parliament that it should be laid down specifically in some form of test what a drinking club really was. There were a great many clubs that were most respectably conducted in different parts of the country, but he 1434 thought all would agree that the amount of alcohol consumed in those clubs was to a great extent to be deprecated. If that was the case under the existing law, much more would it be so under the operation of the new law, because they were going greatly to accelerate the reduction of licensed houses, and they would therefore equally accelerate the tendency towards creating some other establishments where drinking facilities must be granted. It would unfortunately be out of order for him to go into detail in regard to any suggestion of a test. There were subsequent Amendments on the Paper which he was afraid would not be reached that evening, but might he point out that these words must lead to great difficulty in the exercise of the discretion of the magistrates, and would certainly lead to a great lack of uniformity in their interpretation throughout the country. He would like to say something more definite as to the test to guide magistrates in the future, when they were to grant a registration for a bona fide social club, or for something which might develop into nothing more than a drinking club. He thought, however, some more guidance should be given. A test might be imposed in the direction of refusing the registration of a club which, upon a scrutiny of its books, was shown to be deriving more than half of its revenue from the profits on alcohol. That comparison would be fair, and could be easily made.
*THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Member, instead of discussing the Question before the Committee was discussing an Amendment of his own.
§ SIR J. DICKSON-POYNDERsaid he bowed to the ruling of the Chair, although he was afraid they would not have an opportunity of discussing the Amendment referred to, because it would never be reached. He only wished to say that he generally agreed with this clause, but he would like to add something of a more definite character in the nature of a direct test, so that the magistrates in the future could draw the line between social clubs and drinking clubs.
§ MR. LAMBTON (Durham, S. E.)was understood to support the Amendment of the hon. Member for South Hackney. The clause did not in the 1435 least cover the case of frivolous objections, because such objections might be made and withdrawn at the last moment, and the persons making them would escape the payment of the costs. Persons might libel any club and escape without any penalty, so long as they withdrew their complaint at the last moment. It was hard that people should be able to make these attacks upon a club with impunity, and some words were needed to meet the case of frivolous objections.
§ MR. SEAVERNS (Lambeth, Brixton), Club was understood to say that the and Institute Union had declared in favour of a duly authorised public officer being substituted, for "any person" as the initiator of complaints. He was aware that the police were most reasonably objected to as inspectors by clubs, but the question of lodging complaints stood in a different category. He submitted that it would cast great expense upon clubs if any person who liked was able to go and lodge complaints, and it appeared to him that it should be some authorised person, or that the complaint should be lodged at least by a number of people who lived in the neighbourhood and who felt themselves prejudiced by any noise or disturbance which the club created. He hoped that the Government would look with a favourable eye on the suggestion that the words "any person" be eliminated and some other responsible authority put in.
§ MR. RAWLINSON (Cambridge University)wished to appeal to the Government not upon a technical point but upon one which he endeavoured to put yesterday. The hon. and learned Solicitor-General discussing the whole subsection missed out what he would venture to suggest was the most important part of the clause. For the first time they were giving power to anybody who did not want the renewal of a licence of a club to object on the ground that it was used "mainly as a drinking club." He wanted to know what that meant. It might mean one of two things. Some people looked upon this as the keystone of the sincerity of the whole Bill. Was it meant to stop drunkenness and the temptation to it among the body politic, or did it pick upon an unpopular class, the brewers, and deal with them? It all turned upon the definition given 1436 to this expression, "used mainly as a drinking club." He would give a description of a club which he had no doubt was a thoroughly well conducted one. It was affiliated with 1,000 other clubs in London and the provinces, so that a member could get any refreshment he desired elsewhere when he was not in his own club. The rules were well drawn up and the balance sheet was excellently kept. From the latter he saw that in the course of six months between £1,800 and £1,900 had been expended in liquors, wines, and spirits. Those were sold at a profit—a perfectly proper profit of 30 or 40 per cent.—amounting to about £2,000 a year. The money went very largely in the provision of entertainments, which were obviously of a high-class character, involving considerable payments to the artistes who attended on Sundays and other days. It was perfectly well conducted, but the whole of the profits came from the sale of intoxicating liquors. [An HON. MEMBER: How many members?] The amount which came from subscriptions was considerable—some £400 a year. [An HON. MEMBER: What is the subscription?] It would take a little time to work out. The subscription was 1s. a month, and for that 1s. amongst other things there was a convalescent home and a benevolent fund, which were dealt with separately. He was only taking this club as an example of a perfectly well conducted club. It happened to be political, but there was nothing in that, because the whole expenditure on politics came to under £15 a year, so he was not biassed by the political aspect, and cared not whether it was Conservative or Liberal: what he wanted to know was whether or not the Government by that expression "used mainly as a drinking club" meant in any way to hit that class of club. If they did mean to hit it they were embarking upon a less popular entertainment than trying to injure an unpopular class called brewers. If they were doing that they were taking their courage in both hands, and embarking upon a crusade which they would find a very unpopular one, against excellent clubs of this kind which were in direct competition with every public-house in their neighbourhood. The members of these clubs went for country walks, and as they were affiliated to 1,000 other clubs, it would not be 1437 very long before they came to another club which they could enter. In his judgment the real interpretation of these words would form the keystone of the Bill. Did the Government mean to take the courageous line that might be there indicated of taking clusb such as he had referred to, either for purposes of revenue or for purposes of being objected to on the same ground, or was this merely a ^vindictive term which was to be left to the magistrates to determine? He attached great importance to the point. It was not a technical point, but one which went to the heart of the Bill. Let them not leave these words for the justices to determine. Were they to include merely the shebeens, or did they include every honest club the bulk of whose revenue came from the sale of intoxicants? Upon the answer to that question would largely depend how he registered his vote.
§ MR. MARKHAM (Nottinghamshire, Mansfield)said he approached this question from the point of view of one who believed that in many cases clubs were only drinking shops, and that in the case of such clubs it was desirable to impose every possible restriction. There was no doubt that the Act of 1902 provided that where a club that had been registered was used, or was going to be used, mainly as a drinking club, a Court of Summary Jurisdiction might, if it thought fit, make an order striking it off the register. But, so far as a club being used solely or mainly as a drinking club was concerned, he agreed with the hon. and learned Member opposite that the whole of this clause depended very largely upon what constituted a drinking club. He would say that a licensed house closed under the Act, for which compensation was paid, and immediately opened on the following day as a club tied to the same brewers who had received compensation for the closing of the house, could only be described as a club mainly used as a drinking club. That was a case which had come to his notice. No brewer would start a club except for the sole purpose of drink being consumed. Any person could go to the Court and say he knew of his own knowledge that the people who ran a particular club ran it as a drinking shop, and that would be 1438 evidence for the magistrate to take into consideration' when deciding whether a licence was to be granted or not. He had no hesitation in saying that this clause as it stood was necessary. Whether it was necessary to substitute "ratepayer" or some other word for "person," he knew not. But he had no hope that the Government were going to stick to the Bill, because he had heard that they were going further to weaken it in the case of these drinking clubs. He trusted that the Committee would insist on these regulations, which were essential to prevent people, as they were at present, being continually inconvenienced and disturbed at all hours of the day and night, on Sundays as well as other days, by the people who used these unlicensed grog shops.
§ MR. HUNT (Shropshire, Ludlow)said he had seen a deputation from the largest club in his constituency, and they were so frightened of the effect of the Bill that they had not only stopped building very necessary extra room, but they insisted on his going down to the club and talking about it to them, although, being miners, they were almost all on the other side in politics. However, it had done him no harm. They were disposed to object to a single person being able to object to a club, and pointed out that any member who was expelled might take the first opportunity of revenge by complaining to the magistrates and endeavouring to get [the club struck off. They suggested that there should be instead some well recognised authority to object to the club. He thought it would be very difficult to settle what was a drinking club and what was not.
§ MR. RIDSDALE (Brighton)said it had been suggested by speakers on the Liberal benches that the Government were going to weaken the clause. Speaking from the point of view of one who was not a teetotaller, he regarded the strengthening of this clause for this class of club as absolutely necessary. He had given his support to the Bill at first with reluctance but with rather greater pleasure as it proceeded, owing to the way in which the Government were handling it. If, however, he found at this late stage there was going to be any weakening in 1439 regard to this clause he should regret fully have to vote against it. With regard to the suggestion that the words "police man or ratepayer" should be substituted for "any person" as at present in the Bill, he trusted that the Government would accept no such Amendment. They wished to keep the information as general and as wide as possible, and if there was one class of person more than another—
*THE CHAIRMANsaid it was very inconvenient to discuss the question in detail on this Amendment. The hon. Member was again going into the question of the "person."
§ MR. RIDSDALEsaid he would entirely defer to the ruling of the Chair. There was one point, however, which had been left out of consideration altogether, and which had reference to wives of club members. He thought they ought to be considered in the subsection, and that full power should be given to the wife of any member of a club to lodge information that her husband went to his club and got drunk. He thought it highly desirable that this power should be retained in the subsection.
*THE CHAIRMANsaid this arose under the word "person," which should be discussed on a later Amendment.
§ MR. RIDSDALEsaid he would merely confine himself, in conclusion, to a general appeal to the Government not in any way to weaken this subsection, but as far as possible strengthen it.
§ *MR. G. D. FABER (York)said the hon. Member for the Mansfield division had said he had reason to believe that there was to be some weakening by the Government of this clause of the Bill. That was news to him and his friends, and he believed also to a great many Members on the Government side. He was sure that the hon. Member for Appleby, who was one of the great protagonists of the Bill, would have a great deal to say if that were the case. The hon. Baronet the Member for the Chippenham division of Wiltshire had put his thumb on the central difficulty experienced by the Government, because 1440 the inevitable tendency of the Bill must be to drive men from the public-houses to the clubs. What did the Government mean when they said "drinking clubs"? Was that expression merely intended for the shop-window and as an advertisement, and to delude temperance men throughout the country and enable them to go away—honestly, though mistakenly, go away, and say that the Government Bill would suppress drinking clubs? The fact was that what the Government were really doing was merely shifting the difficulty and onus on to the Court to decide, because somebody would have to determine the meaning of the phrase "drinking clubs" at some time or other. It might mean something or nothing, according to the view the Court took. He would be extremely curious to hear what the Government really meant by the phrase. The provisions of the Act of 1902 dealing with clubs had been referred to, but the phrase used there was nothing like so vague as that in the present Bill. It was "frequent drunkenness on the club premises." That was a definite issue upon which any mind, judicial or otherwise, could come to a conclusion. To define the words in the present Bill required supernatural ability, for not only had the interpreter an extraordinarily vague phrase to deal with, but he had to be prophetic as well, having to decide whether the club "is used or is to be used" merely as a drinking club. It must be clear to anybody who really wished to grapple with the evil that a different form of expression must be put into the Bill. The question under the Act of 1902 was once and for all, whether the club was respectable or not; but in the present Bill there would be and was intended to be a possibility of objection every year; The Act of 1902 worked well, because although any person could make a complaint, nothing need be done "unless the Court grants a summons on the complaint." Under this Bill, however, the Court could not stop objections. The question of costs was an important one in this connection. They would be almost certainly incurred, because notice of objection could be lodged by any person against any club. If the committee of the club 1441 were wise they would at once take steps to meet the objection, and would probably consult a professional adviser. After thus running up a considerable bill, they might find that at the last moment the objection was withdrawn. Would there be power to deal with the question of costs that had already been incurred if the objections were withdrawn before the case went before a Court of Summary Jurisdiction or the Stipendiary?
§ *MR. G. D. FABERsaid he would leave the matter there. If the point was a material one, he was sure that the Solicitor-General would give them the benefit of his counsel when the proper Amendment was reached.
§ *MR. REES (Montgomery Boroughs)hoped that the advice given by his hon. friend the Member for Brighton in regard to clubs, which had hitherto been the last retreat of distressed manhood, would not be adopted by the Committee, lest clubs in future became a great cause of estrangement between husband and wife. He thought the words of the subsection were very wide, and there was nothing in it to make it more difficult for a frivolous or malicious person to make use of it for purposes for which it was not intended. It would not be in order now to consider whether a police officer would be the better person to object, or whether that privilege should be left to that wretched man the ratepayer. The subsection was certainly very wide indeed, and if it was to effect the object in view, it would undoubtedly lay clubs open to very unadvisable interference. If they considered the different way in which the subsection would operate in London compared with small towns in the country, the would see how absurd it would be in the case of political clubs like the "Carlton" or the "Reform," or non-political clubs like "The Travellers" and "Brooks's" that a person should be able to come forward and make objections in the manner contemplated. They were clubs with 1442 committees, out of which a front bench on either side could be easily formed. Yet under this section any person might come forward—
*THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Member was discussing a detail outside his ruling. It was advisable that he should not discuss that point until they had the Amendment before them.
§ *MR. REESsaid it was due to his want of ability to keep within the ruling, not that he desired to transgress it. He would be in order, he presumed, in discussing the question of drinking clubs. He thought it was impossible to give a definition of a drinking club which would meet every case. A drinking club, if they took the words in their actual sense, meant a club where anyone drank. Therefore the question was, how did they drink? The hon. Baronet the Member for North-West Wilts had suggested as a definition "where more than half the revenue is derived from the sale of intoxicating liquors." But people who frequented clubs were not such children as to allow themselves to be checked by a provision like that. How easy it would be for them to make the subscriptions high, and the price of drink low, so that they could hide the profits with the greatest possible ease. Nor did he think it was possible to say to what extent drinking in a club was to prevail in order to constitute it as a "drinking club." He remembered a case—it was not in this country—where the president of a club of Europeans in India gave advice to a young magistrate newly arrived in the country. He said: "If you wish to get on and keep your health in India do not drink too much by day or too little by night." A statement of that kind might be got hold of by a certain class of person, who would say: "That is a man who favours drink." But he was a man of the most blameless life and conversation and greatly respected, and looking back from the atmosphere by which he was now surrounded, he could think of nothing whatever against that man except that he was the son of a Peer. He remembered also the case of a candidate who was urged to vote for total prohibition. He said modestly: "It would ill become me to vote for total 1443 prohibition, because I fall short of that standard by a glass of whisky or a pint of wine a day." One of his hearers, an estimable man for whom he had the greatest respect, said: "This candidate actually admits he drinks a glass, or half a bottle too much every day." From his own point of view that gentleman was perfectly consistent. He thought one glass was a glass too much, and half a bottle half a bottle too much, and he was entitled to go away and say what he did. He (Mr. Rees) happened to be the candidate. These cases illustrated extremely well the difficulty of defining "drinking clubs." In both these cases there was not an hon. Member who would not have had the greatest respect for these two gentlemen, yet a temperance extremist would put one down as a profligate and drinker, and a moderate drinker would put down the other man as a fanatic. It was impossible to make any definition of a drinking club which would satisfy the requirements of both sections. He hoped the Government would not screw the section up into something which would give great opportunities to the ill-disposed and malicious and the ultra-political to come forward and bring charges against institutions which could not properly be sustained. Take the case of small country towns. There was in a small town perhaps a Conservative, and perhaps not a Liberal club. The Liberals thought they would have a club, and someone came forward and said: "That Liberal club is likely to be used mainly as a drinking club." The exact contrary case also might of course occur. A section like this made it absolutely easy for anyone to say that. In small places where party feeling ran high it was by no means unlikely that cases like that might actually occur. The Solicitor-General had said they were not to suppose that everybody would act outrageously, because the section gave them the opportunity. He (Mr. Rees) did not suppose that, but he knew there were innumerable people about who, when they were obsessed with one idea would go to lengths which would surprise all their friends and acquaintances. He should not be in the least surprised to see the section made use of in the manner which he 1444 suggested, and which he was sure the Government did not desire.
§ MR. BOTTOMLEY, in view of the Chairman's ruling, which had tied the hands of the Committee, asked leave to withdraw the Amendment, If they could consider what class of objectors would be qualified to exercise these powers they would probably be doing better work.
§ Leave to withdraw refused.
§ MR. YOUNGER (Ayr Burghs)said he wanted to say a word on the very important point raised by the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge, and emphasised by the hon. Member for Montgomery, in reference to clubs described in this subsection as clubs used mainly as drinking clubs. He had had since the Bill was introduced the half yearly report of a very large work-men's club, most respectably conducted in every way, and he understood with a very large membership. To anyone reading them casually the figures would imply that it was mainly used as a drinking club, while as a matter of fact, though drink was largely consumed, there was nothing to be said against it. The total cash receipts for six months from 1st July last year to 31st December was £3,391. Of that total, £3,157 was drawn for liquor at the bar, £22 from billiards and £112 from subscriptions. In the payments on the other side of the account only £60 was paid for food, and £1,817 for liquor. The liquor account showed a profit of £1,091 for the half year which was, of course, used in various ways—for management, excursions, and so-forth. On the face of it he should say anyone seeing these figures would say: "This club surely is mainly used for drinking." He did not suppose the Government proposed to touch a club of that sort, but it appeared to him it would certainly touch it if the section stood in this vague way.
§ MR. LUPTON (Lincolnshire, Sleaford)rose in his place, and claimed to move "That the question be now put;" but the Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
§ EARL WINTERTON (Sussex, Horsham)said he wished to refer to one question put by his hon. friend the Member for Cambridge. It really brought them to grips with the whole club question. It was simply this: What was, not the legal meaning of the words "mainly used as a drinking club," but the meaning attached to them by the Government? He ventured to think that was the crux of the whole question with regard to the club clauses. He wished to make one comment on the action already taken by the Government. Yesterday the Solicitor-General or the Under-Secretary for the Home Department said it was not desirable to tie themselves to a meaning that a club used mainly as a drinking club was one which in the words of the Amendment then moved "derived half of its profits from the sale of intoxicating liquor." He thought they ought before they proceeded to a division to hear from the Government what meaning they attached to the words "mainly used as a drinking club." There was a real danger of objection being raised to the registration of a club merely from political prejudice so long as they had this loose definition in the Bill. It would be open to any person, on political grounds, to subject a respectable club to all sorts of annoyance, inconvenience, and expense. He appealed to the Government to acquaint the Committee with the meaning they attached to the words "mainly used as a drinking club."
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid he was sure the Committee would absolve him from any want of readiness, but he hoped the noble Lord would not ask him to reply on it now. He would not be in order in doing so. The point really upon the omission of the subsection was whether or not there should be the possibility of making the objection. As to the persons who might make it, that had been excluded by the Chairman's ruling, and as to the grounds on which it might be made, when they came to that he would be ready to express his opinion for what it was worth.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not dissent from the spirit which animated the hon. and learned Gentleman at all, but he would recognise that it was just 1446 possible that they might not reach the provision he had referred to. Of all the points raised in connection with clubs, undoubtedly this phrase—"mainly used as a drinking club"—was the most important. The illustrations which had been given by the hon. Members for Cambridge and Ayr Burghs were quite sufficient to show what extraordinary difficulties lurked behind that phrase, and though he himself would be extremely glad to go to a division, they had better deal with it now, so vital did he regard it as being.
§ VISCOUNT MORPETH (Birmingham, S.)said he did not attach any importance to the persons who objected, but he did object to the procedure. It seemed to him that it was totally inapplicable to clubs, for this reason. In the past they all knew those who were sometimes described as temperance fanatics or otherwise as conscientious objectors objected to public-houses on general grounds, and proceeded against individual public-houses on general prohibition grounds. Clubs would be exposed to a double fire under this procedure, as was shown by the hon. Member for Rhondda Valley the other day when he described all the clubs in his district as mere drinking dens. It was quite obvious that in that district those who approved of prohibition would object on general grounds to all clubs, quite regardless of the character of the individual club. Clubs were the trade rivals of public-houses, and, consequently, they would be exposed not only to the conscientious attacks of the prohibitionists, but also to the attacks of those who were their interested trade rivals. It was because the clubs which had existed for years among the richer classes had now spread to the poorer classes that they were exposed to all this hostility, and they deserved some protection under this clause. He would welcome any proposal from the Government which would make clubs more secure than they would be if the desires of some hon. Members opposite were placed upon the Statute-book.
§ *MR. RENWICK (Newcastle-on-Tyne)said the fact that the Solicitor-General was not prepared to define what was 1447 meant by the phrase "used mainly as a drinking club" showed that he was in as great a difficulty as they were. He attached very great importance to that definition because he was going North for the purpose of opening a new club.
*THE CHAIRMANThe hon. Member is not in order because he is merely repeating what a great many other hon. Members have said. The Motion is to leave out the first subsection. The question has been asked what meaning the Government attach to certain words and the Solicitor-General has promised to reply at a later stage. I do not think we can go on repeating these arguments.
§ MR. RENWICKsaid he attached the greatest importance to those particular words "used, mainly as a drinking club" and he failed, to see how he could argue the point without referring to them. Other hon. Members had spoken very fully upon them and he asked the Chairman to reconsider his ruling.
*THE CHAIRMANThe repetition of these arguments has become tedious and I must have regard, to that fact. I do not think the hon. Member should go on with that line of argument.
§ MR. RENWICKsaid that under those circumstances he would refrain from making a speech at all.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINthought it would be most convenient to take the division now and proceed later on to discuss this important question. He had hoped that, the Solicitor-General would have given them an answer which would have relieved them of the necessity of taking a division.
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid it would not be in order for him to do so.
§ *MR. H. H. MARKS (Kent, Thanet)said the discussion had. made it abundantly clear that a very strong opinion was held, in various quarters of the House that it was desirable that something should be done to reform the management of a certain class of clubs. He shared that view and he should, share it more cordially if the reform included cricket, 1448 football, chess and draught clubs, with which many hon. Members were familiar. If it was necessary to introduce regulations for the better management of clubs, what was the proper way to bring it about? Surely it was by importing into this Bill direct, distinct, and definite instructions, and that was precisely what the clause under discussion did not do. Apparently the authors of the Bill were not desirous of incurring the ill-will of the clubs or those concerned, and there fore they had. devolved, upon other shoulders the painful duty of applying to clubs vexatious prosecutions and petty annoyances which they hoped in the long run would result in their absolute destruction, or at any rate inflict upon them very grave injury and inconvenience. Upon whom was it proposed to devolve this duty? It was to devolve upon anyone, regardless of age, sex, status or residence—
§ *MR. H. H. MARKSsaid that under the general provisions of this clause it would be competent for anyone to go from one end of the country to the other filing objections to clubs. Men of straw might do this—
*THE CHAIRMANIf the hon. Member persists in discussing that point I shall have to consider the word "person" settled on this Amendment.
§ *MR. H. H. MARKSsaid the clause as it stood would inevitably have the effect of encouraging complaints against clubs. Those complaints, however numerous or trivial, no matter how inspired or from whom they came, would have to be considered by the Court to which they were, made. That would involve a steadily recurring, annual expense. This clause would render it possible for trade and political rivals and others animated by "merely spiteful motives to put a heavy annual burden, upon clubs throughout the country. It might be desirable and he thought it was desirable to curtail the number of clubs; and it might also be desirable to improve the management of many clubs, but surely 1449 it could not be desirable to put into the hands of all members of the community the power to persecute, harass, annoy, and put to unnecessary expense the members of clubs from spiteful motives which the Court would have no power whatever to check. Under ordinary circumstances, when a man was brought before a Court of law, if there was any motive shown it was taken into consideration; but under the operation of this clause, however, unworthy, mischievous, or spiteful the motive of a plaintiff might be, the Court had no power to take cognisance of any one of those considerations, it was bound to entertain the complaint and thus play into the hands of the spiteful interloper. On those grounds he thought the Motion to exclude this clause should be carried by the Committee.
§ MR. CAVE (Surrey, Kingston)said he wished to explain what their opposition to the subsection meant. It did not mean that they were opposed to the reasonable regulation of clubs or to annual registration. The reason he was going to vote against the subsection was that it contained more than one element he objected to. It gave the power to "any person" to object. It authorised an objection on the ground that a club "was to be used" as a drinking club. It laid down no rule for ascertaining what a drinking club was. These and other provisions were so vague and likely to be so oppressive to clubs that he could not support the subsection.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 262; Noes, 78. (Division List No. 329.)
1453| AYES. | ||
| Adkins, W. Ryland D. | Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) |
| Agnew, George William | Compton-Rickett, Sir J. | Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd | Hart-Davies, T. |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) |
| Armitage, R. | Cory, Sir Clifford John | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Harwood, George |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Cox, Harold | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Crooks, William | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Crosfield, A. H. | Hedges, A. Paget |
| Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset) | Crossley, William J. | Helme, Norval Watson |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Curran, Peter Francis | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Barnard, E. B. | Dalziel, James Henry | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W. |
| Barnes, G. N. | Davies, David (Montgomery Co. | Henry, Charles S. |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) |
| Beale, W. P. | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) |
| Beauchamp, E. | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S. | Higham, John Sharp |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Hobart, Sir Robert |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N. | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. |
| Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo. | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Hodge, John |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Hooper, A. G. |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd | Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N. |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Erskine, David C. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Boulton, A. C. F. | Evans, Sir Samuel T. | Hudson, Walter |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Faber, G. H. (Boston) | Hutton, Alfred Eddison |
| Brace, William | Fenwick, Charles | Jackson, R. S. |
| Bramsdon, T. A. | Ferens, T. R. | Jacoby, Sir James Alfred |
| Brigg, John | Ferguson, R. C. Munro | Johnson, John (Gateshead) |
| Bright, J. A. | Findlay, Alexander | Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Freeman-Thomas, Freeman | Jones, Leif (Appleby) |
| Brooke, Stopford | Fullerton, Hugh | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Gibb, James (Harrow) | Jowett, F. W. |
| Brunner, Rt Hn Sir J. T. (Cheshire | Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W. | Kearley, Sir Hudson E. |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Glendinning, R. G. | Kekewich, Sir George |
| Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles | Glover, Thomas | Kelley, George D. |
| Byles, William Pollard | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Laidlaw, Robert |
| Cameron, Robert | Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Grant, Corrie | Lamont, Norman |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Gulland, John W. | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) |
| Clough, William | Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Clynes, J. R. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Radford, G. H. | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Stuart, James (Sunderland) |
| Lupton, Arnold | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' | Summerbell, T. |
| Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Redmond, William (Clare) | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Rees, J. D. | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Lynch, H. B. | Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Macdonald, J. B. (Leicester) | Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n | Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury |
| Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs | Richardson, A. | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Ridsdale, E. A. | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. | Roberts, Charles II. (Lincoln) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| M'Callum, John M. | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Thomasson, Franklin |
| M'Crae, Sir George | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton |
| M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| M'Micking, Major G. | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Torrance, Sir A. M. |
| Maddison, Frederick | Robinson, S. | Toulmin, George |
| Mallet, Charles E. | Robson, Sir William Snowdon | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Verney, F. W. |
| Markham, Arthur Basil | Roe, Sir Thomas | Walsh, Stephen |
| Massie, J. | Rose, Charles Day | Walters, John Tudor |
| Menzies, Walter | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Walton, Joseph |
| Micklem, Nathaniel | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. | Wardle, George J. |
| Middlebrook, William | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan |
| Molteno, Percy Alport | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Mond, A. | Scarisbrick, T. T. L. | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne | White, Sir George (Norfolk) |
| Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Sears, J. E. | White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh. |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Seaverns, J. H. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Murray, Capt. Hn A. C. (Kincard. | Seddon, J. | Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) |
| Myer, Horatio | Shackleton, David James | Whittaker, Rt Hn. Sir Thomas P. |
| Napier, T. B. | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Nicholls, George | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Sherwell, Arthur James | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Nussey, Thomas Willans | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Nuttall, Harry | Silcock, Thomas Ball | Williamson, A. |
| O'Grady, J. | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Sloan, Thomas Henry | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.) |
| Partington, Oswald | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Perks, Sir Robert William | Snowden, P. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton) | Soares, Ernest J. | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Spicer, Sir Albert | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Stanger, H. Y. | |
| Pirie, Duncan V. | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Steadman, W. C. | Joseph Pease and Master of |
| Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Elibank. |
| Pullar, Sir Robert | Strachey, Sir Edward | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F. | Cross, Alexander | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham |
| Ashley, W. W. | Doughty, Sir George | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Du Cros, Arthur Philip | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Dunean, Robert (Lanark, Govan | Magnus, Sir Philip |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Faber, George Denison (York) | Marks, H. H. (Kent) |
| Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester | Fardell, Sir T. George | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Fletcher, J. S. | Morrison-Bell, Captain |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) | Nolan, Joseph |
| Bertram, Julius | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Oddy, John James |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Percy, Earl |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. | Heaton, John Henniker | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Helmsley, Viscount | Ratclffe, Major R. F. |
| Cave, George | Hill, Sir Clement | Renton, Leslie |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hogan, Michael | Renwick, George |
| Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Worc | Hunt, Rowland | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Kerry, Earl of | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Kimber, Sir Henry | |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S. | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Starkey, John R. |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) | Whitbread, Howard | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. |
| Valentia, Viscount | White, Patrick (Meath, North) | Bottomley and Earl Winterton. |
| Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George | |
| Walrond, Hon. Lionel | Young, Samuel | |
| Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) | Younger, George |
§ SIR HENRY KIMBER (Wandsworth)moved an Amendment providing that instead of "any person" having power to lodge an objection to the registration or the renewal of the registration of a club, only a "duly authorised police officer" should have the power to do so. He objected to the words "any person" in the subsection, because it would not matter whence he came or whither he was going. The person might not be resident in these islands at all; he might be from the Sandwich Islands or Timbuctoo. The common informer would be established, a system of espionage would be introduced into club life, and instead of peace and good-will being promoted among different classes of the community a fresh means of agitation and conflict would be provided by this subsection. The motives of an objector might be benevolent or spiteful, but, whatever they might be, it would not be possible to challenge his status. He was not obliged to state the grounds on which he proceeded; he was to be entitled on his mere ipse dixit to arraign a club and bring it before a tribunal to prove its innocence. According to the good old English principle a man was assumed to be innocent until he was proved to be guilty, but that was to be reversed in the case of clubs. He was not wedded to the words of amendment if better ones could be suggested. If it was thought desirable to insert the words "chief constable" instead of those he proposed, he would be very pleased to agree to the alteration. Under the clause as it stood a common informer might be paid by an association or section of the community to find out how clubs were conducted in order to bring about their extermination.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 18, line 32, to leave out the word 'person,' and insert the words 'duly authorised police officer."—(Sir Henry Kimber.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'person' stand part of the clause."
1454§ SIR S. EVANSsaid he understood the hon. Member to argue that it was inadvisable to allow "any person" to lodge objections to the registration or the renewal of the registration of clubs. He might say at once in order to relieve the feelings of hon. Members that the Government thought they were bound to adhere to the word "person." To omit that word for the introduction of a more limited term would, in their opinion, weaken the provisions of the club portion of the Bill. From the commencement, in dealing with the criticisms which had been levelled against them by the Opposition, they on that side of the House had said that they would accept help offered in improving the club clauses, if the suggestions would have the effect of either maintaining the rights and privileges of bona fide clubs, or tending to put down clubs which were called drinking clubs. In the discussion on the previous Amendment he stated that since 1872 there had been a provision entitling any person in any part of the country to object to the renewal of any public-house or hotel licence. As he had already stated, although there were 90,000 licensed houses it had been found that nobody had suffered from the existence of the unlimited power to object to renewals. The general policy of the law was not to restrict the right of informing to particular persons when they were dealing with something which was an infringement of the law. While that was the general policy of the law, he did not say that there were not special Acts which said that in regard to certain matters the information must be laid by particular persons. They had not only the experience of more than a generation in regard to the unlimited power of objection to the renewal of licences conferred by the 1872 Act, but they had also the experience of the legislation of the late Government. Here the objection could only be made by any person once a year upon an application for renewal of registration, or an application for registration for the first time; but under the 28th 1455 Section of the Act of 1902 any person, at any time and on any ground of objection, might apply to have the club struck off the register. If it was right to allow any person to do that, it would not be wrong to give any person the right proposed under this section. The hon. Member for York had said that under the section of the Act of 1902 they must go to a magistrate for a summons. Everybody knew that the issue of a summons was purely a ministerial act, and that if anybody laid an information no magistrate would refuse a summons. He was asked the meaning of the words "used or is to be used" as a ground which could be alleged by an objector against the registration or renewal of the registration of a club. He was asked to deal with two matters. First of all, to say what they meant by words "used or intended to be used." In the judgment of the Government the words "intended to be used," although they looked to the future, might be found to be very useful words when they came to operate under this Act. It was said that they did not know how the premises were going to be used. There were various tests of that. Supposing a licence or licences had been reduced or extinguished in a certain street in a certain town; supposing it was perfectly well known who the persons were who usually sat and were interested in these licensed premises; assuming that upon the extinction of those licensed premises they found that the very persons interested in them were the persons who were interested in the club about to be opened: was that not a most pertinent matter for the justices to take into consideration in deciding whether or not they would allow the club to be registered as a bona fide club? Again, supposing it was well known that the committee of the proposed club—he was not going to condemn brewers, but was assuming that a public-house had been extinguished—had for its chairman the agent of the brewer, did anybody contend that in that case it was not right for the justices who had to deal with the matter, and who had to act judicially in a Court, to take that fact into consideration? Take another illustration. The Court 1456 had a right to see whether or not the accommodation in the club was such as would indicate that it was going to be used as a bona fide club, or whether the accommodation was simply that which they found in an illegitimate drinking club. Supposing the most important room on the premises was fitted up as a bar and that there were no conveniences elsewhere for any of the other purposes of a genuine bona fide club—that might be a matter for the justices to take properly into consideration before all owing the registration of the club. Was it not a test of whether a club was to be used as a mere drinking club to see what provision there was by way of rules for accommodation on the premises for the purposes of recreation, social companionship, reading, legitimate games, and so forth? If there were no such accommodation on the premises, and if there were no provision for such accommodation in the rules, the justices might be amply justified in saying, taking all these things into consideration, that the club was not really going to be a bona fide club, but merely a drinking club.
§ SIR HENRY KIMBERsaid that that kind of argument did not touch the Amendment which he had moved.
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid he could see what the hon. Baronet meant, but he was not directing the whole of his speech to his Amendment. He had given, he hoped, a complete answer to the hon. Baronet's Amendment from the experience they had had, from the precedents they had in previous legislation, and from the lessons of the past itself. He would now deal with what was meant by the words "to be used mainly as a drinking club."
§ SIR HENRY KIMBERasked how that applied to the objection made by any particular person.
*THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMANsaid it was perfectly true that the hon. and learned Gentleman's speech did not now apply to the hon. Baronet's particular Amendment, but for the general convenience and with the consent of the 1457 Committee the hon. and learned Gentleman was addressing himself to the general question raised by the subsection. But hon. Members would understand that they were not to follow the hon. and learned Gentleman's example.
§ MR. WYNDHAM (Dover)said he did not quite appreciate the Deputy-Chairman's last statement. Was he to understand that it would not be competent for any other Member of the Committee to argue as to the vague character of the subsection?
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid he had ventured to suggest tentatively in a previous speech that it would be in order for him to discuss the objections raised to the wide power given by the subsection.
§ MR. LAMBTONasked if under the Chairman's ruling they would or would not have, a right of reply to the Solicitor-General.
*THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMANsaid he thought his ruling was very clear. The Solicitor-General was making some observations with regard to a promise he made on a previous Amendment; and, as he understood, it was for the convenience of the Committee that the Solicitor-General should do so. The question whether other Members had any right to open up the whole subject raised by the subsection would be determined when they began to make their remarks.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN (Worcestershire, E.)said that what took place ton a previous occasion was that not merely the Solicitor-General but other Members in all parts of the House were requested by the Chairman to defer their observations on the general question until they reached the Amendments. As he understood, it was with the consent of the Chairman that the Solicitor-General had undertaken to deal with these general matters on this Amendment, but he also understood that other Members of the Committee would have a right of reply.
*THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMANsaid it could not be expected of him to give a 1458 definite ruling on a matter which had not yet come before him.
§ SIR S. EVANSobserved that although right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite appeared to be greatly puzzled about the meaning of the phrase "is to be used mainly as a drinking club" there was no Amendment on the Paper to omit those words. They would be in their right to do so yet, of course, but it was rather curious after the plethora of Amendments they had had on this Bill and many against this clause, that if there had been any difficulty with regard to the meaning of those words, they should not have had some Amendment put down with regard to them. They must, in dealing with matters in the ordinary course of things, use language which sometimes might be said to be vague, looking at the language theoretically, but which in practice raised no difficulty at all. He thought that nobody sitting as a justice on a bench would have much difficulty in saying that a particular club was to be used mainly as a drinking club. Those words were not capable of legal definition, and he was not going to attempt to define them. He did not think that any definition which could be given would be absolutely accurate and full. With regard to the use of the terms that had been said to be vague, in ordinary life everybody knew what the words meant. Let him use an illustration, for he was not going to define what they meant. Supposing it was found that there was no accommodation in the premises for recreative purposes or social purposes but that a great deal of drink was sold there, would anybody doubt that the premises were used mainly as a drinking club? Under the Act of 1902 one of the grounds for striking a club off the register was that it was not conducted "in good faith as a club." Could anybody suggest that there was more difficulty in applying in the ordinary course of things a common-sense meaning to the words "merely used as a drinking club," than there would be in applying such a meaning to the words "in good faith as a club"? Another phrase was "habitually used," for certain purposes, and another "frequent drunkenness." 1459 Everybody knew that "frequent drunken ness" was a vague phrase, but they were not using it on that occasion. If they had been he would have been asked, he supposed, to define the word "frequent." [An HON. MEMBER: But the club is not in existence.] When they were discussing the meaning of the words what did it matter whether the club was in existence or was coming into existence? He had dealt with the words "to be used," but taking the Irish Act the words were used having regard to the "character of the Chair man." Suppose a Solicitor-General was asked to define what was the meaning "of the character of the chairman" and what was the character which would prevent the registration of the club—
§ SIR E. CARSON (Dublin University)Every Irishman has a good character.
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid in that case he could not understand why his right hon. and learned friend put the words into the Act.
§ MR. RAWLINSONasked if the hon. and learned Gentleman would answer his question. It was not about a legal point. Did the Bill intend to strike at a bona fide club well conducted, with £2,000 a year income from drink, and subscribers of between £200 and £300 a year?
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid he could not take the case of any club without all the figures and circumstances, but taking the illustration of the hon. and learned Gentleman as he had given it, he would say, they did not mean to hit a club of that kind, and he might point out that they opposed an Amendment the night before which said that a club should not be registered as a bona fide one if it made half its income from the sale of liquor. The question was what was the raison d'etre of a club. Was it established for bona fide social purposes, or was it put up merely in substitution for the public house which had been closed? He had not attempted to define the words, but he had given to the Committee reasons for supposing that no difficulty at all in the administration of justice under this Act would confront 1460 any ordinary bench of magistrates. If it was said that his definition or his description was not sufficient, he would ask what did they mean by it in 1903 and in 1904? ["Where."] These were the very words which were in the Scottish Act and the Irish Act. One of the grounds of objection to a club in the Scottish Act was that it was not conducted, in good faith as a club, or that it was habitually used for any unlawful purpose, or mainly for the supply of exciseable liquor. [An HON. MEMBER: Those are not the words here.] Was there any difference? ["Yes."] He would come to that later. In the Irish Act the words were "not conducted in good faith as a club." Reference was also made to habitual use for an unlawful purpose, and then it was said "or mainly for the supply of excise-able liquor." He did not know whether it came as a surprise to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen that these words were in these Acts. [Cries of "They are not in."] Was it suggested that there was any difference? ["Yes."] He would wait and see what the difference was. If a club was "mainly used for the supply of exciseable liquor" a club was "mainly used as a drinking club" or so it appeared to him. On the other hand if a club was mainly used as a drinking club it could be properly described as a club "mainly for the supply of exciseable liquors." If his definition failed in any respect, perhaps right hon. and hon. Gentlemen would give him a definition of what they put in their Irish and Scottish Acts, and he would see if he agreed with it. He came back to the immediate purpose of the Amendment of the hon. Baronet, and he wanted to remind him of what he said earlier in the evening, when he thought the hon. Member was not present, of the course which the Government had taken in regard to this matter. They had been in communication with a large union of really genuine bona fide clubs, and what they asked for first of all was a change of constitution in the Court dealing with this matter. That was when the Government thought that the licensing justices were the proper body for the sake of the symmetry of their Bill, but the Government said they would give this provision they would make it possible for the Court to penalise in costs a person who brought an unfounded charge, and make 1461 it possible for the Court, indeed compulsory, to administer oaths and to take no evidence except upon oath. That was a matter entirely beyond what was allowed in the case of owners of licensed premises under the Act of 1872. He was able to tell the Committee that the able and energetic secretary of that union, which he thought comprised over a thousand clubs, was perfectly content that the word "person" should remain in the Bill now that the Government had changed the constitution of the Court. That being so, he hoped the hon. Baronet, so far as his Amendment, which was moved in a similar interest, was strictly concerned, would be content with what the Government had done.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he held no brief for the Club and Institute Union or any other body, but he hoped his hon. friend would stick to the Amendment which he had moved. There was no doubt a certain number of clubs in his constituency, he thought not a very large number, and he had had from them but one single communication against this Bill, and that was a very strong protest which came from a Liberal club, the members of which he did not count among his supporters. On the merits of the Amendment he was entirely with his hon. friend that it was not proper to give such wide powers of objection as were contained in the Bill to any person, no matter who that person might be, and no matter where he came from. They might have a peripatetic gentleman from some organisation busying himself in districts with which he had no concern, in matters of which he had no knowledge, taking frivolous objections to the registration or to the existence of clubs, and thereby causing very considerable inconvenience and loss of time to many men who could ill afford either. They must bear in mind that it would be the committeemen who would have to go and defend their action in Court, and as had been stated, these would be working men who could not go and attend to these matters without the loss of their ordinary employment. He thought, that to give gentlemen of this sort power to object without their having necessarily any connection with the locality and without 1462 any guarantee of good faith or interest in the matter was to inflict a great hardship upon a bona fide club. He must repeat and amplify what his right hon. friend said a little earlier in the evening, that the provisions of their Act of 1902 afforded no precedent for what the Government was now doing. What, after all, was the object of the particular clause they were now considering? It was to bring under review once a year every club in which exciseable liquor was sold—at least to make a fixed period at which the attention of everybody would be directed to these clubs, the general object, although they might differ as to the mode of carrying it out, being that attention should be turned to bad and illicit clubs, and prevent their registration. What did the Government expect? If they expected anything, they expected objections to be much more numerous or sensibly more numerous than they had been in the past. It was true that under the old Act objection might be taken at any time, but the opportunity to do it at any time was not nearly so generally availed of as an opportunity to do it on any particular day or time. As one of his friends put it to him, he preferred to take his house from year to year, as an annual tenancy never came to an end, but a lease did and when it did, the rent was apt to be raised. In other words when they made a time for things to come under review they invited objections, and they ought to see that the power to make those objections was not abused. In this connection he must go further and say that it became infinitely more important that they should have regard to the other provisions of the section to which the hon. and learned Solicitor-General referred. Under the Act of 1902 objections were meant to refer to matters of fact or alleged matters of fact which had taken place in the past, but under the present Bill they might be founded upon necessarily speculative opinions as to what was going to take place in the future. He would for himself make an admission, though he did not know whether his hon. friends would agree, but he thought that some power ought to be given to raise an objection to the registration of a club where in the opinion of responsible people, such as an authorised police officer, there 1463 was reason to suppose that the club was going to be opened merely to evade the licensing law; and he was prepared to contemplate anticipatory action—action based upon anticipation of what was likely to happen, and not merely action as under the Act of 1902, in respect of what had already taken place in a club which was already registered. But again he said the fact that they introduced that speculative element required them to take greater precautions so that the power to take objection was not abused. He also said that in connection with the vagueness of the words on which the objection might be founded—that the club was used or to be used mainly as a drinking club. The very fact that they had introduced this power of looking forward and speculating on the future ought to make them more rather than less careful to define the grounds upon which registration or the renewal of it might be refused. He did not agree that the words in this Bill meant what the words in their Act meant. If that was so why pick a quarrel? Why not take the words of their Act, and say that a club was not going to be conducted in good faith only as a club.
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid the right hon. Gentleman was referring to another part of the subsection.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he was referring to the English Act, while the hon. and learned Gentleman had referred to others. He had a natural preference for the English Act. This phrase was, no doubt, put in by the hon. and learned Gentleman as an equivalent. The provisions of the Irish and Scottish Acts were an exact equivalent. Would he give them the exact words of those Acts?
§ SIR S. EVANSIs there any difference?
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINIf there is no difference, why not take those words?
§ SIR S. EVANSWhat is the difference?
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he preferred them because they were 1464 more definite and specific. The hon. and learned Gentleman said they were not, but when they were trying to strike a bargain, and one of the persons to the bargain asked for something which the other thought was of no value, why should he not give it? Nothing was lost, because that which was asked for was, in the opinion of the person who gave it, of no value.
§ SIR S. EVANSasked, in order that the Government might consider whether they should or should not retain their own words, which they preferred, whether the right hon. Gentleman would say what the exact difference was.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINconsidered the phrase in the Act of 1902 more definite than that of the hon. and learned Gentleman. The hon. and learned Gentleman himself considered it equally good for the purpose, yet he refused to adopt the phrase that he had quoted from the Act. The hon. and learned Gentleman had stated that he did not wish to strike at such a club as that instanced by the hon. Member for the Cambridge University, a club admittedly well conducted, but whose revenue was wholly obtained from the sale of alcoholic liquor. He thought the hon. and learned Gentleman was right. He could not strike at such clubs. Then what a farce it was to say that by this Bill they were going to promote temperance by restricting the facilities for obtaining drink. They were going to restrict one class of facilities and allow the other to grow and increase throughout the country.
§ MR. CLAVELL SALTER (Hants, Basingstoke)said that one of the difficulties they suffered from in the discussion of this Bill was that directly an Amendment was proposed a representative of the Government got up and rejected it, and the debate from that moment became unreal. If the hon. and learned Gentleman had accepted this as a good Amendment not only would those Members who were present have accepted it, but the large majority of those within the precincts who knew nothing of the Bill, and cared less, would have come in in troops to support it. 1465 Because the hon. and learned Gentleman rejected it all the Members in the Chamber and elsewhere who supported the Government opposed it. He supported the Amendment, although he thought in the mere matter of verbiage that of the hon. Member for Thanet was preferable. Genuine clubs were increasing and would increase, and if this Bill became law he imagined there would be no doubt that bogus clubs would increase. The sharpest possible distinction should be made between bogus and genuine clubs; there should be no mercy given to the bogus but every possible consideration given to the genuine clubs. For that reason he regretted that the Government had not distinguished more sharply between the origination of a club and the annual registration and review. He would willingly have supported an Amendment which would have strengthened this Bill immensely as regards the original starting of a club. A club of the most mischievous character could be started, if attention was not called to it, without any sort of inquiry whatever. He would like to see a most rigid inquiry by an impartial authority when a club was started, and once it established the fact that it was a bona fide club he would interfere with it as little as possible. Everybody who had had any practical experience of the renewal of licences for public-houses would have no difficulty in estimating to themselves the kind of thing that would happen every year when these clubs came up for registration. The methods would be the same as those with which they were familiar in the case of the public-houses. There would be spies, possibly paid, always suspected of being paid, getting into these clubs and being entertained there in good faith, who would come and give evidence upon what they saw, who was there, what they were drinking, what they talked about, when they left, and the exact degree of heinousness which marked the offences. Malice would enter into the matter, politics and personal local feeling would enter into it. There would be intense jealousy. The hon. and learned Gentleman had told the Committee that no mischief had resulted from the unlimited power given to the people to oppose licences. He himself 1466 thought a great deal of mischief had resulted. There was a great deal of frivolous and vexatious objection on the application for the renewal of licences. But even if the hon. and learned Gentleman was right it was not the same thing. The publican was trading for profit and, holding a monopoly from the State, occupied a different position. It was part of his career to stand up before a magistrate, but it was no part of the career of people who took a private house for the purposes of a club. He did not propose to deal with the point "mainly as a drinking club." It was too indefinite. Had the word been merely as the hon. and learned Gentleman paraphrased it, the position would have been much easier to deal with. The only point he wished to make with regard to these words was this: What would be gained by permitting all these annual objections, which would be the result of this clause? Would anything be gained? The objector could not succeed without satisfying the Court that the club was mainly used as a drinking club, and if he could prove that there was no need for this Bill. Under the existing law, if he proved that he could get the club struck off the register. He submitted, therefore, that all that would be done would be to introduce all this additional burden into the country without the evil being suppressed. They would get equal efficiency and less friction by entrusting this duty to the responsible police officer. There was not the same bitterness when the information was given by a police officer that was experienced if it was given by "any person." The police existed for the purpose and the clubs would accept with good humour even unfounded charges made in good faith by a constable, but they would not stand it from one of their neighbours. Moreover, unfounded charges were rare, because the police were careful. The Solicitor-General had referred them to a section in the Scottish Act, but he thought he was right in saying that under the Scottish law the persons who might move to oppose the annual registration were the police and council of the borough. If that were so, and if it was to be regarded as an authority, it was a strong argument in favour of the Amendment. He submitted 1467 to those Members of the Committee who had not made up their minds about the matter, that to say "any person" was to lay clubs open to reckless charges and introduce evils with no adequate advantage to the cause of temperance.
§ MR. STUART WORTLEY (Sheffield, Hallam)said he held with everybody else in that House that it was of the highest importance to discriminate between bona fide and bogus clubs, and it was even more important to discriminate between bona fide and bogus objections. There were various excellent statutory precedents affording a method of discriminating between bona fide and bogus objections. It was pleaded on the Treasury bench that these words "any person" existed in the Licensing Acts, and also in other Acts applying to clubs. But both the Licensing Acts and the Acts applying to clubs became law before that House passed another most interesting Act which afforded a method of distinguishing between bogus and bona fide attempts to set up a prosecution. He referred to the Prevention of Corrupt Practices Act. Under that Act they could not set up a prosecution against the persons who offered or the employee who betrayed his employer's interest by receiving a bribe, without first obtaining the fiat of so important an officer as the Attorney-General. But under this particular proposal they were going to put bona fide clubs, clubs of respectable working men, carried on in a respectable manner, in a worse position than the person who offered, or the employee who betrayed his employer by receiving a bribe in the course of trade.
§ MR. LAMBTONsaid the Solicitor-General had given an instance of how to distinguish between bogus and bona fide clubs. He took the example of a public-house which had been shut up, and of the same premises, or new premises in the same street, being used for the purpose of a club, with either the publican or his manager conducting it. In such circumstances, the hon. and learned Gentleman had observed, they would obviously be dealing with a bogus club, and ought to refuse it registration. But to bring a case before the Court was not such a simple matter. All 1468 who were connected with the licensing bench were familiar with applications for transfer, or for an extension of hours on a particular occasion, and when such applications came before them they gently asked the superintendent of police if there was any objection. Surely, in the case of clubs, police officers would be the proper persons to give information; they would be the very persons to put all the facts before the magistrates. The Solicitor-General had talked of clubs springing up like mushrooms in one night, but on that he would remark that the police would know what was going on, and could go before the bench with the necessary objections. The Solicitor-General had twitted the Opposition with objecting to the words "used mainly for drinking," and said that similar words appeared in the Scottish and Irish Acts relating to clubs. But this was entirely a different matter. What would the hon. Member for Appleby or the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley say of a club where every member drank his glass-of beer once a day. Those two Gentlemen would maintain that the club was used "mainly for the purpose of drinking." ["Oh."] He thought that would be the view of a great many people; they would say: "Every man who is a member of the club goes there for the main purpose of drinking his glass of beer or spirits." The words used by the Irish and Scotish Acts had quite a different import. It was merely a matter of opinion whether or not a club was a drinking club, yet they proposed to give the power contained in the subsection to any casual explorer of the club, any outsider, who might think that a certain amount of alcohol was bad, and therefore, brought the objection before the Court that the club was "mainly for the purpose of drinking." The police officer would not do that. He could not understand why the Government did not accept the Amendment, which would not remove any restriction from bogus clubs while it would give some confidence to bona fide clubs.
§ MR. HART-DAVIES (Hackney, N.)said he did not want to be more royalist than the King, and if the clubs did not 1469 object certainly he did not. He remembered a case where a man had been turned out of a working-men's club for drunkenness, and he afterwards distinguished himself by writing to the newspapers to say that this working men's club was a home of drunkenness. He was in a position to make that, statement. But, as he had said, if the clubs did not object certainly he had no reason to object. He suggested that as there were numerous other Amendments of extreme importance, one especially dealing with brewers' tied clubs, it would be well to close the discussion, on the present Amendment.
§ MR. HUNTsaid he could assure the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down that the clubs in his part of the country entertained a very strong objection indeed to this perfectly absurd proposal of the Government. The hon. Gentleman had given a case in point of a man who was ejected from a club, and who afterwards turned against it, and did his best to get it taken off the register. Workmen in his part of the world said there were certain people who were clearly sane on everything except the question of alcohol. Such people thought it very wrong that any person should have an opportunity of going into any sort of house or club where they might possibly get a wineglassful of alcoholic liquor. It was pointed out that these people would be perfectly certain to object to all such clubs. These working men in his constituency had impressed upon him that if there was no way of getting out of this proposal, it should be insisted that there should be three people to object instead of one. He could not move the Amendment which stood in his name, but that was what they asked him to do, if nothing better could be done. He thought the Government should give this question very serious consideration, because the proposal was certainly against the interests of well-conducted clubs of the working classes.
§ MR. WYNDHAMwished to reply to one point in the speech of the Solicitor-General, who had complained of their criticism against the vagueness of the words to which they objected, namely, "used mainly as a drinking club." The 1470 hon. and learned Gentleman said they were not entitled to complain of the vagueness of these words, because the words of their own English Act of 1902 were as vague—he did not say they were identical. But the words of the Act of 1902 were—
That it is not conducted in good faith.
§ SIR S. EVANSNo, no.
§ MR. WYNDHAMbegged the hon. and learned Gentleman's pardon; he had given as an example of vagueness the words of Section 28, Subsection (1) (b),—
That it is not conducted in good faith.But in subsection (2) of the same section there were the words—For the purpose of determining whether a club is conducted in good faith as a club the Court shall have regard to the nature of the premises occupied as a club.There was a specific direction that the Court were to interpret those words upon the evidence available, namely, the premises of the club. He therefore held that the Solicitor-General's retort could not be allowed to stand. The words of the Bill, "used or to be used mainly for drinking," were an addition to the grounds of objection set forth in the Act of 1902; they were an addition to which they objected, because they were a vague phrase, not a legal phrase, as the hon. and learned Gentleman had himself admitted, but a phrase which invited any person living in any part of the country to form any opinion, however prejudiced and absurd, about a club, and to harass respectable citizens who were members of it.
§ MR. ARTHUR HENDERSON (Durham, Barnard Castle)said he had sat through this discussion, and he had noticed amongst all sections of the Committee that there had been expressed a very general desire not to interfere unduly with the club that was conducted on proper lines. It seemed to him if that were so that the words "any person" were altogether too sweeping. They had to remember that this laid every club open, notwithstanding the reply of the Solicitor-General regarding costs, to frivolous objections which, might involve in some cases, no fewer 1471 than twenty, in some cases thirty, working men losing a day's, work to attend before a stipendiary or a Court of Summary Jurisdiction. He might be told that their remedy lay in the fact that if the case went against the objector he would be subjected to costs. He was afraid that would not be very satisfactory to these twenty or thirty working men who lost their day's wage if they found out, as they might very often do, that the man who objected was nothing more than a man of straw. They might be told—he thought they had been told—that it was the law at present that any person could object under the Act of 1902. But might he remind the Committee that the position by this Bill was being made entirely different? They had now, according to the clause that they had passed yesterday, established an annual registration. The Solicitor-General had given the explanation that a summons could be taken out almost every week in the year. But when they laid it down in an Act of Parliament that there was to be an annual registration, they were inviting, at definitely stated times, the objector, however frivolous the objection might be, to go to the Court and raise it. Therefore it seemed to him that if they had no desire to harass the well-conducted club, they were going a little too far. He was not satisfied that they were having offered to them the proper remedy for this in the Amendment of the hon. Baronet. He thought he was going too far in the opposite direction. He was taking away from everybody concerned in the locality, everybody whose property or whole social life might be affected by a bogus club, the direct power of objection. The objection, if this Amendment became law, could only be made through a duly authorised police officer. It seemed to him that that was carrying them altogether too far in the opposite direction from the position that he had first stated. The persons in every locality where these clubs were situated ought to have some power of objection, but it ought to lie in their being allowed to go to the chief constable and state the objections. The chief constable with his experience would be able at once to say whether he thought it was a legitimate 1472 bona fide objection or not. In the event of his being satisfied he would make himself responsible on behalf of the locality, as the properly constituted official, to appear before the Court and lodge the objection. The discussion that had taken place regarding the words "mainly as a drinking club" appeared to him to be the strongest argument why the suggestion that he was now making ought to be accepted. If it were accepted the individuals in the locality in which the club was situated would be able to keep up their interest. But they might have some difficulty in defining what was "mainly a drinking club." The Solicitor-General shook his head, but they were not all lawyers. They were legislating for working men and working men's clubs. If they had that difficulty and they thought that the club was being improperly used, surely it ought to be within their power to go to someone who had proper experience and say that a certain club was being used so-and-so, and ask whether it was a violation of the law. If, on getting full information, he concluded that it was a violation of the conditions of registration, he would, on behalf of the locality, as an official, lodge an objection to the next registration, and probably call the individual who had come to him in an open, honest way and lodged the information, as his chief witness. In this suggestion they could link up both ideas—first of all of giving any person the right to object to the chief constable, and, secondly, of constituting the chief constable the properly constituted official who would take the objection, after he had sifted it, to the registration Court. In this way they would be removing the risk of frivolous objection and of taking twenty or thirty working men as the committee of the club to the Court, only to hear that, after all, the objection was a frivolous one, and to find that the man objecting was a man of straw, and that they had been mulcted in all their expenses without any opportunity of obtaining a satisfactory remedy.
§ SIR E. CARSONthought the speech that had just been made was well worthy the consideration of the Government. His early experience of licensing sessions, he was glad to say, was in a country where everybody bore a very good character. 1473 What used to happen? It might be imagined that some bona fide objections came in on those occasions—a serious householder or someone who got up and made a specific objection to the renewal of the licence. Not at all. The same one man objected to every licence. In Ireland it was necessary to get a ratepayer or a householder, but there was not that limitation here. They always had the same one. It was usually the employee of some temperance association, and upon each occasion he got up and stated that he had an objection to this particular house—generally the same objection. He wanted to have a clean sweep and purify the neighbourhood, but he would not have a shilling. What would it matter to him whether there was an order for costs or not? They might go and whistle for their costs. They would have the registration of these clubs objected to every year and considerable expense put upon the respectable clubs, because no matter what their character was, high or low, any association or any individual might come in and make an objection. That would be a very serious state of affairs to the many respectable clubs. Another reason why the Government might be asked to make a concession was that already any person might at any time, as he understood it, lodge a complaint against a club. If that was a right given to any person, was that not quite sufficient for the stock objector without giving him the right to come in at the annual session of justices and lodge this objection? If there was any real case against any individual club by reason of which it ought to be stuck off the register, any person could now bring it forward. If they had that and the annual right of lodgment of a complaint to the chief constable, surely they were doing enough to give the fullest opportunity for preventing these bogus clubs, and at the same time they were doing what they always ought to attempt to do—minimising as far as possible any inconvenience or impertinence towards the genuine club. In that way, if they showed a distinction in their legislation as between the two, not only would they do what was fair towards the genuine club, but they would do a great 1474 deal to get the genuine club upon their side as against the bogus club. It would be well, having regard to the powers which already existed and to the powers in any event which they would create under this Bill, that some concession should be made. He wished to make one other observation. It should always be borne in mind that, apart altogether from this legislation, there was nothing to prevent at any time the police prosecuting any house where they were selling drink without a licence if the place was not a bona fide club. The police could go in and say: "Really, this is a public-house, and you have no licence." They had a perfect right to do that apart from these statutes, and the accumulation of these actions against clubs, making no distinction between real and bogus clubs, would become so exasperating that, so far from doing good, harm would be done.
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid that after the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman, and the hon. Member for Barnard Castle he desired to say a few words. The considerations which had been urged so forcibly by the right hon. and learned Gentleman were urged quite as forcibly in Committee upstairs when the Act of 1902 was considered, and it was then argued that they ought not to allow any person to set the law in motion. On that occasion the Committee adopted the words "any person" and the Government saw no reason to make any distinction between objections to the annual renewal of a licence and objections and complaints in regard to applications for the registration of clubs. The right hon. and learned Member referred to the question of costs, and said those representing the clubs would never get their costs in case the action, went in their favour. His answer to that was that under the Act of 1872 in the case I of 90,000 licences, there had been no abuse of this right of objection to the renewal of any licence.
§ MR. YOUNGERsaid there had been a great abuse in Scotland.
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid, in replying to the hon. Member for Barnard Castle, he 1475 wished to point out that the Amendment he had on the Paper would not provide a better alternative than the Government proposal. His hon. friend's Amendment provided that any person might—
at any time on his own personal knowledge forward to the chief constable—
§ SIR S. EVANSinvited the hon. Member for Barnard Castle to give the Government his support until he heard what they had to say upon the next Amendment.
§ *MR. G. A. GIBBS (Bristol, W.)said that now there was to be the annual registration of all clubs it made all the difference in the world. Under this section they were going to give power to any man to object to any club when the question of the renewal of the registration came up every year. Any fanatic would be able to go about from place to place objecting to the renewal of the registration of any club, and the same man might be found in dozens of different places objecting to clubs and making it incumbent upon the officials of the clubs concerned to come into Court and prove that their clubs were bona fide. This sort of espionage would be most objectionable and un-English, and it would be much better to leave it to the police officer who knew all about the district.
§ SIR HENRY KIMBERdesired if possible that they should have one division instead of two. He had concluded that the Amendment of the hon. Member for Barnard Castle was better than his own and if the Government were willing to accept it he would ask leave to withdraw his Amendment.
§ [Cries of "No, no."] The observations of the Solicitor-General had dealt mainly with subsequent parts of the clause, and had no pertinence to his Amendment which was intended to abolish the common informer and the spy. With regard to the costs in a police-court they were merely trumpery as compared with the pains and worry given to the officers of the club. All the officials of a club and the whole of the committee might have to come to the Court for the purpose of proving that their club was properly conducted; in fact they would be called upon to prove their own innocence instead of having the guilt proved against them. Did any hon. Member ever hear of the costs against a common informer being recovered? He had never known an instance of that kind. The points of the Solicitor-General were good as far as they went, but the common informer would be still in existence and the spy would be left at work. The Amendment of the hon. Member for Barnard Castle provided the same safeguard as his own Amendment in regard to the police-constable, and he was willing to withdraw his Amendment in favour of the hon. Member's if the Government would accept it.
*THE CHAIRMANUnless the Government are going to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Barnard Castle we must discuss these Amendments separately.
§ SIR HENRY KIMBERasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
§ Leave refused.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 241; Noes, 101. (Division List No. 330).
1479| AYES. | ||
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Berridge, T. H. D. |
| Agnew, George William | Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset) | Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Barnard, E. B. | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Barnes, G. N. | Boulton, A. C. F. |
| Armitage, R. | Barran, Rowland Hirst | Brace, William |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Beaumont, Hon. Hubert | Brigg, John |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt | Brocklehurst, W. B. |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo. | Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) |
| Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. (Cheshire | Hogan, Michael | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Horniman, Emslie John | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Horridge, Thomas Gardner | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Robinson, S. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles | Hudson, Walter | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Byles William Pollard | Hutton, Alfred Eddison | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Cameron, Robert | Hyde, Clarendon | Rose, Charles Day |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Jacoby, Sir James Alfred | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Jardine, Sir J. | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Scarisbrick, T. T. L. |
| Clough, William | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne |
| Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W. | Kearley, Sir Hudson E. | Sears, J. E. |
| Compton-Rickett, Sir J. | Kekewich, Sir George | Seely, Colonel |
| Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd | Kelley, George D. | Shackleton, David James |
| Cory, Sir Clifford John | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Laidlaw, Robert | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Crooks, William | Lamont, Norman | Silcock, Thomas Ball |
| Crosfield, A. H. | Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis | Simon, John Allsebrook |
| Crossley, William J. | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John |
| Curran, Peter Francis | Levy, Sir Maurice | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Lewis, John Herbert | Snowden, P. |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co. | Lupton, Arnold | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S. | Lynch, H. B. | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Mackarness, Frederic C. | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Stuart, James (Sunderland) |
| Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | M'Callum, John M. | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Erskine, David C. | M'Crae, Sir George | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Essex, R. W. | M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | M'Laron, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Evans, Sir Samuel T. | Mallet, Charles E. | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Faber, G. H. (Boston) | Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Ferens, T. R. | Marnham, F. J. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro | Massie, J. | Torrance, Sir A. M. |
| Findlay, Alexander | Masterman, C. F. G. | Toulmin, George |
| Freeman-Thomas, Freeman | Micklem, Nathaniel | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Middlebrook, William | Verney, F. W. |
| Fullerton, Hugh | Molteno, Percy Alport | Walton, Joseph |
| Gibb, James (Harrow) | Mond, A. | Wardle, George J. |
| Glen-Coates, Sir T. (Renfrew, W. | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Wason, Rt. Hn. E. Clackmannan |
| Glendinning, R. G. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) | Murray, Capt Hn. A. C. (Kincard. | Watt, Henry A. |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Napier, T. B. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Nicholls, George | Whitbread, Howard |
| Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | White, Sir George (Norfolk) |
| Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale | Nuttall, Harry | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Parker, James (Halifax) | Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Partington, Oswald | Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P. |
| Hart-Davies, T. | Paulton, James Mellor | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E. | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Pirie, Duncan V. | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Hemmerde, Edward George | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.) |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Henry, Charles S. | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | Rees, J. D. | Mr. Joseph Pease and Master |
| Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th | of Elibank. |
| Hodge, John | Richardson, A. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F. | Glover, Thomas | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) | Renton, Leslie |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Renwick, George |
| Ashley, W. W. | Gretton, John | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.) | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Banner, John S. Harmood | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Seddon, J. |
| Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester | Hedges, A. Paget | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Helmsley, Viscount | Starkey, John R. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hill, Sir Clement | Steadman, W. C. |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hunt, Rowland | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Bottomley, Horatio | Jowett, F. W. | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Kerry, Earl of | Summerbell, T. |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Thomson, W. Mitchell (Lanark) |
| Brooke, Stopford | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Valentia, Viscount |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S. | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Walsh, Stephen |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Marks, H. H. (Kent) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wore | Morpeth, Viscount | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Morrison-Bell, Captain | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Myer, Horatio | Winterton, Earl |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos, H. A. E. | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Nield, Herbert | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Oddy, John James | Young, Samuel |
| Cross, Alexander | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Younger, George |
| Du Cros, Arthur Philip | Percy, Earl | |
| Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan | Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne | Sir Henry Kimber and Mr. |
| Fletcher, J. S. | Ratcliff, Major R. F. | George Gibbs. |
§ MR. BOTTOMLEYmoved an Amendment providing that the power of objecting to the registration or re-registration of a club should be limited to "any resident in the district." He said it was undesirable that the power of objecting should be put into the hands of some unnamed and indefinite person. Only those who had a local interest should be invested with this power. He could not conceive any possible argument against the Amendment and, therefore, he did not think it necessary to advance any more in its favour.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 18, line 22, after the word 'person,' to insert the words 'resident in the district.'"—(Mr. Bottomley.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid that this Amendment covered the same ground as they had been covering for the last three hours. He was sorry that the Government could not accept the Amendment. It would raise many difficulties which did not at present exist—questions as to what a district was, and who were residents in a district. The Amendment contemplated a difficulty which would never occur, because it would be found in practice that only persons interested in a district would object.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 97 Noes, 230. (Division List No. 331.)
1483| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F. | Banner, John S. Harmood- | Bridgeman, W. Clive |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Baring, Capt Hn. G. (Winchester) | Brooke, Stopford |
| Ashley, W. W. | Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. | Bull, Sir William James |
| Balcarres, Lord | Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Butcher, Samuel Henry |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Berridge, T. H. D. | Carlile, E. Hildred |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City Lond | Bowerman, C. W. | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Bowles, G. Stewart | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Kerry, Earl of | Snowden, P. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc | Kimber, Sir Henry | Starkey, John R. |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Steadman, W. C. |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) |
| Cross, Alexander | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Summerbell, T. |
| Curran, Peter Francis | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N. | Lupton, Arnold | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) |
| Du Cros, Arthur Philip | Lynch, H. B. | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan | Marks, H. H. (Kent) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Fletcher, J. S. | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) |
| Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Morpeth, Viscount | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham | Morrison-Bell, Captain | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Myer, Horatio | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Gretton, John | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield | Wardle, George J. |
| Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) | Nield, Herbert | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.) | Oddy, John James | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington | Winterton, Earl |
| Hay, Hon. Claude George | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Hedges, A. Paget | Ratcliff, Major R. F. | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Helmsley, Viscount | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Young, Samuel |
| Hill, Sir Clement | Remnant, James Farquharson | Younger, George |
| Hodge, John | Renton, Leslie | |
| Hudson, Walter | Renwick, George | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Hunt, Rowland | Salter, Arthur Clavell | Bottomley and Mr. George |
| Jowett, F. W. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Faber. |
| Joynson-Hicks, William | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Compton-Rickett, Sir J. | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E. |
| Agnew, George William | Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Helme, Norval Watson |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Hemmerde, Edward George |
| Armitage, R. | Crooks, William | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Crosfield, A. H. | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Crossley, William, J. | Henry, Charles S. |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Dalziel, James Henry | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Davies, David (Montgomery Co. | Higham, John Sharp |
| Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset) | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Hobart, Sir Robert |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S. | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. |
| Barnard, E. B. | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Hogan, Michael |
| Barnes, G. N. | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N. |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Horridge, Thomas Gardner |
| Beaumont, Hon. Hubert | Erskine, David C. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Essex, R. W. | Hutton, Alfred Eddison |
| Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt | Esslemont, George Birnie | Hyde, Clarendon |
| Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo | Evans, Sir Samuel T. | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd | Faber, G. H. (Boston) | Jacoby, Sir James Alfred |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Fenwick, Charles | Johnson, John (Gateshead) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Ferens, T. R. | Jones, Leif (Appleby) |
| Boulton, A. C. F. | Ferguson, R. C. Munro | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire |
| Brace, William | Findlay, Alexander | Kearley, Sir Hudson E. |
| Brigg, John | Freeman-Thomas, Freeman | Kekewich, Sir George |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Fuller, John Michael F. | Kelley, George D. |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Fullerton, Hugh | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.) | Laidlaw, Robert |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Glendinning, R. G. | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Glover, Thomas | Lamont, Norman |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Byles, William Pollard | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Cameron, Robert | Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampt'n | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes |
| Carr-Gomm H. W. | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick | Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs) |
| Clough, William | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | Mackarness, Frederic C. |
| Clynes, J. R. | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Hart-Davies, T. | M'Callum, John M. |
| Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W. | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | M'Crae, Sir George |
| M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Richardson, A. | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Ridsdale, E. A. | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Mallet, Charles E. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) | Torrance, Sir A. M. |
| Marnham, F. J. | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Toulmin, George |
| Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Robinson, S. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Massie, J. | Robson, Sir William Snowdon | Verney, F. W. |
| Masterman, C. F. G. | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. | Walsh, Stephen |
| Micklem, Nathaniel | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | Walton, Joseph |
| Middlebrook, William | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan |
| Molteno, Percy Alport | Scarisbrick, T. T. L. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Mond, A. | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) | Watt, Henry A. |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Scott, A. H. (Aston under Lyne | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Murray, Capt. Hn. A. C. (Kincard | Sears, J. E. | Whitbread, Howard |
| Napier, T. B. | Seddon, J. | White, Sir George (Norfolk) |
| Nicholls, George | Seely, Colonel | White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh |
| Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Shackleton, David James | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.) | Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) |
| Nuttall, Harry | Sherwell, Arthur James | Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P. |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Partington, Oswald | Silcock, Thomas Ball | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Paulton, James Mellor | Simon, John Allsebrook | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton | Soares, Ernest J. | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.) |
| Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Stanger, H. Y. | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Pirie, Duncan V. | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central.) | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) | |
| Rea, Russell (Gloucetser) | Stuart, James (Sunderland) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. |
| Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' | Sutherland, J. E. | Joseph Pease and Master of |
| Rees, J. D. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Elibank. |
| Richards, Thomas W. (Monm'th | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
§ MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONmoved to amend the subsection so that it should read: "Any person may at any time on his own personal knowledge forward to the chief constable of a county or borough such information as he considers a violation of the conditions of registration of any club, and such chief constable shall investigate the complaint and make a record of such investigation, and then, if satisfied that the same affords good ground for objection, shall lodge an objection to the renewal of the registration of the club." Believing that his Amendment would not be reached he had availed himself of the opportunity on another Amendment of saying almost everything he had to submit in favour of his own. He hoped that what he said then was sufficiently convincing. There was one point, however, which he wished to put before the Solicitor-General who had tried to influence the Committee by endeavouring to persuade them that the representatives of the Club and Institute Union were satisfied. He could assure the Committee that a deputation from the 1484 executive of the Club and Institute Union had waited upon the Labour Party, and strongly urged them to press this Amendment. The Solicitor-General had several times during the debates hinted the willingness of the Government to take the voice and opinion of the Committee in regard to Amendments on the club clauses.
§ SIR S. EVANSTo strengthen them; not to weaken them.
§ MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONsaid he hoped he was doing nothing to weaken the clause now before the Committee. His Amendment would certainly strengthen the Bill. Without this Amendment any twenty or thirty working men might be dragged from their work to the Court at the expense of losing their day's pay of 5s. or 5s. 6d. each. When they got to the Court they might find it was only a frivolous objection put forward by a man of straw, who could not pay their costs. The proviso in the Act that costs should be obtainable was worthless so far as these thirty 1485 poor workmen were concerned. He urged the Government to leave this question to the Committee, because on all sides of the House there was a very strong feeling in favour of this Amendment, and, if it were not made a party question, the Amendment would be carried by a large majority.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 18, line 22, after the word 'may, to insert the words 'at any time on his own personal knowledge forward to the chief constable of a county or borough such information as he considers a violation of the conditions of registration of any club, and such chief constable shall investigate the complaint and make a record of such investigation, and then, if satisfied that the same affords good ground for objection, shall.'"—(Mr. Arthur Henderson.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid he did not know what was the date of the interview which the hon. Member had with the representatives of the Club and Institute Union.
§ MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONThursday last.
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid that on Tuesday the Committee decided as to the change in the constitution of the Court, and it was since then that the Government were informed that there was no objection. However, he wanted it to be distinctly understood that he would be the last person in the world to say that they should be influenced by any consideration of that kind; they should discuss the question entirely on its merits. He thought that the acceptance of this Amendment would weaken the provisions of the Bill with regard to clubs, and if it were looked at carefully he believed it would be recognised that it ought not to receive the support of or be pressed on the Committee. In the first place, it made it impossible for anyone to take proceedings except the chief constable—no police constable, no police sergeant, no police inspector, nobody except the chief constable. He would ask his hon. friend to remember that there was not, so far as he knew, a single precedent for that in any legislation which the House had 1486 ever passed. There was not a single case which he could bring to mind where there was any reference to any investigation of any offence or charge in which it was enacted that nobody but the chief constable could take proceedings. He thought that was a solid argument against the Amendment. He would go further and say that the hon. Member was making a mistake as to the effect of his Amendment. He would not now discuss the probability of there being frivolous objections, but if there were to be any frivolous objections at all the Amendment would give greater power to make them. If there was to be espionage, this Amendment would not only permit it, but encourage it. The hon. Member wanted anybody to go to the chief constable and give him such information as he considered to be a violation of the law. But what would that do? Instead of the man coming openly in the light of day to the Court he would pour his tale into the ears of the chief constable. An expelled member of the club, who through spite wished to do something against the club, was precisely the man who would go to the chief constable to show him that the rules had been violated. Supposing that the chief constable followed that by investigation, he might think it necessary to go over all the premises, and inspect all the books. But, if the chief constable thought he was bound to take these proceedings by reason of the information given him, what would happen? No costs would be given against him by any magistrate. Finally, by the Amendment, the hon. Member was seeking to make the chief constable the final judge in the matter instead of the Court of Summary Jurisdiction, unless the chief constable was to take proceedings in every case in which there was prima facie evidence. He hoped he had argued his point fairly to the Committee.
§ LORD R. CECILsaid he could not say that he was at all impressed by the arguments of the Solicitor-General, although they were very much indebted to the hon. and learned Gentleman for the great care which he had evidently given to the matter. In the first place, the Solicitor General said that this was a very unusual provision and that there was no precedent for it. He was always struck by the 1487 curious affection which hon. Members opposite had for real old Tory arguments. It was quite true, he dared say, that there was no precedent for it, but he did not think that that mattered very much, for the whole of this legislation was unreasonable and unprecedented. They had to deal with a very difficult and delicate situation, in which they must apply some measure of restriction so as to catch the bad clubs, but with a sufficiently large mesh to allow the good clubs to go through. Then the hon. and learned Gentleman said that the Amendment would really give greater power to the spy, who would, without coming into the open, go to the chief constable and pour into his ears the tale of calumny which he would be ashamed to tell in open Court. So he could now whatever legislation was passed. But in addition to that, they did not wish that the spy should be able to inflict an undeserved penalty on members of a club, whether guilty or not. Unless there was some preliminary inquiry, such as would be undertaken by the chief constable, the spy would be able to force twenty or thirty poor working men to go to Court, give up a day's work at serious inconvenience, and lose a day's pay, without the slightest justification. That was the difficulty they had to meet, and he should think they might safely trust the chief constables not to take up any really frivolous complaint. He would have thought it was a very legitimate and deliberate test to say that a person had to satisfy the chief constable that he had some kind of case before he could bring it into Court. The last argument of the Solicitor-General seemed most amazing—that this would make the chief constable the final judge. But that official would have to bring the case before the Court and to satisfy the tribunal, and he did not think so badly of the magistrates composing the petty benches as to say that they would take the word of the chief constable without investigating for themselves. The chief constable had also to make a record, and show what investigations he had made, and to satisfy the Court that the club ought not to be registered. He would illustrate that. Much of our penal legislation provided that proceedings 1488 should not be brought without the fiat of the Attorney-General, but nobody suggested that that made the Attorney-General the final judge of such matters. It merely showed, if he issued the fiat, that the Attorney-General thought it was a matter which should be brought before the Court He could only hope that if this was the sole argument the Government could bring forward, the Committee would decide upon the argument, and not on Party lines.
§ MR. CURRAN (Durham, Jarrow)said the hon. and learned Solicitor-General seemed to make out a case in favour of the Amendment of his hon. friend rather than against it. As the law stood to-day the chief constable was the supervising authority in the radius which he governed. If the police staff under him found any complaint in regard to the bad government or the bad conduct of a club they had to report to the chief constable at the present moment, In the first place, the hon. and learned Gentleman admitted that frivolous complaints were quite possible. They thought they were more than possible — that they were probable. It might not be only the faddist who was against all clubs who might make a complaint; it might be a person who had some spite against the governing executive of the club. It might be either the temperance faddist or the spiteful person, who, by making the accusation, would put the club to expense. Therefore, in his opinion, the chief constable ought to be empowered to investigate any complaint in his position, as responsible officer governing a staff of policemen in his area. He ought to make minute investigations prior to lodging a complaint and commencing a prosecution, and it should only be upon the authority of the chief constable that such a prosecution should be undertaken, instead of upon the initiative of an irresponsible person. He therefore hoped that the advice of his hon. friend who moved the Amendment would be taken, and the Committee would be allowed a free hand on the question of adopting the Amendment.
§ *MR. REESsaid the noble Lord, who was a counsel learned in the law, had supported this Amendment, but he wanted to ask the Solicitor-General whether it was not unusual, unnecessary, and undesirable to provide by statute that a person might do that which he might do without any statute at all. Any person might at the present time forward to the chief constable any such information as he considered necessary as to any violation of this or the other law, and it seemed to him unnecessary for a statute to provide that a chief constable should investigate such a complaint. He thought he was bound without any statute to investigate such complaints. He was always under the impression, when it was his duty to draft Bills as Secretary to a Legislative Council that he should not provide for anything which was unnecessary and superfluous. It appeared to him that this Amendment was superfluous.
§ MR. PICKERSGILL (Bethnal Green, S. W.)thought his hon. friend the Member for Barnard Castle only stated the truth when he mentioned that there was considerable feeling in the House in favour of the Amendment. As he understood the Solicitor-General, he mainly relied on the absence of precedent. He would give him one. Under the Lord's Day Observance Act a prosecution could only be undertaken with the consent in writing of the chief constable or his deputy.
§ *MR. CLAVELL SALTERcould not understand why the Government objected to the Amendment. The desire, had been to get a general initiative, and to avoid frivolous attacks upon genuine clubs. Did they not combine those two things under the Amendment? Anyone could set the police in motion, and they had the experience of the police in regard to the proceedings. Surely this Amendment was most necessary. It placed upon the police officer the most important duty of receiving from any person any complaint, and it then became his business to investigate and make a record—a new and most important feature. If the chief constable did not take proceedings, and the complainant thought he should, 1490 a complaint could be made to his superior officer, the record was there, and his conduct was open to investigation. Was he right in saying that the only result of resisting this Amendment was that a complaint which was so frivolous that the police officer ignored it could yet be brought forward for the vexation and irritation of these clubs? Any complaint not absolutely frivolous would be taken up by the police.
§ MR. SHACKLETON (Lancashire, Clitheroe)said he would like to urge one more point upon the Solicitor-General, viz., the importance of leaving this matter open if he could. He knew that it was a matter of considerable feeling as shown by the expressions they had heard in the division lobby. He thought it would be wise to leave a matter like this to the Committtee to decide for themselves. He did not think there was much in the point as to weakening oversight, because he thought the Solicitor-General admitted that this would rather encourage the spy. That could not weaken oversight, because it would encourage the spy to give information. At least, the authorities in a town would have more information than they would have otherwise. From that point of view it could not weaken it. He did not see that there was anything in the point made about only the chief constable being able to do this. The chief constable was the authority now in regard to complaints about licensed holders. If a constable came in with a report, the chief constable had to settle whether the matter should go forward or not. The Committee; must recollect that they were dealing chiefly with working men in these clubs. They might have a commitee of twelve or twenty, These men had the responsible duty of keeping the club in a proper manner, and they might have occasion to expel men who had been guilty of offences that they all wanted to clear out of these clubs, gambling and excessive drinking, and these men might turn round on the committee and hamper them by threats of laying complaints, and the effect would be just the opposite of what the Solicitor-General wished to bring about. They wanted to make it certain that no outside member could 1491 turn round and harass the committee and compel them to forfeit a day's work in order to go and answer these complaints. He thought the Government were going to weaken the Bill if they insisted upon this condition, but he considered that by the Amendment of his hon. friend they might meet the case. The Solicitor-General had endeavoured to show that the change of Court had removed the objection of the clubs, but that view had not been conveyed to them, and he did not think the change of the Court removed the objection. The committee of management were responsible, and he thought they would weaken their power if they made it possible for a refractory member or an expelled member to make it hot for them. He hoped the Government would not press this to a party division.
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid he had great respect for his hon. friend, and he wanted to make it perfectly clear that he desired the Committee not to vote with any reference to the supposed suggestion of the Club Union or anybody else. He desired them to free their minds of that idea. An appeal had been made to him to leave this question to be decided by the Committee instead of in the ordinary way. He always thought it an indication that the Government had no very strong view on the matter if they took that course. That would be the effect of their saying that the ordinary procedure was not to be followed. But the Government had a very strong view on the matter, and they thought it would weaken the Bill if they took a different course from what they had indicated, and therefore he was reluctantly compelled to say that he could not accede to the request so politely put forward by his hon. friend.
§ MR. BYLES (Salford, N.)said he had followed the debate with great care and with an entirely open mind, and he would be very glad indeed if the Government would leave the matter open. If they did so he would still feel it his duty to vote for them because the arguments which had been presented to the Committee by several speakers from the Labour Party had not convinced him, whereas the arguments 1492 presented to them so ably by the Solicitor-General had had that effect. The able advocacy of the noble and learned Lord opposite, moreover, had not diminished the force of what the Solicitor-General had said. One argument was mentioned by the Solicitor-General in an earlier debate which had made a great impression on his mind, and that was that ever since 1822 every licensed house had been subject to complaint from any person exactly in the words now proposed that a club in which alcohol was sold should be. For nearly a century these provisions had existed in the case of public-houses, and the frivolous objections of which hon. Members opposite were so afraid had not been made. He thought, therefore, it was only reasonable to expect that clubs would be equally immune.
§ MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONIt would not bring twenty men away from their work.
§ MR. BYLESpointed out that the frivolous objection had not been made in the case of 90,000 public-houses for nearly a century, and therefore it would not be made in the case of clubs. If it was not made in the case of clubs twenty men would not be brought away from their work to defend themeslves against it. He was not like the noble and learned Lord opposite, wedded to precedent. He was quite ready to create a new precedent if he thought it necessary or desirable.
§ *MR. JOYNSON-HICKS (Manchester, N. W.)desired, as one who was in favour of making the restrictions with regard to bogus clubs as strong as possible, to say a few words in explanation of his supporting the Amendment of the hon. Member for Barnard Castle. His action throughout, on this clause, had been to strengthen the restrictions for bogus clubs; to make the regulations with regard to the renewal of the registration as severe as possible, but to insure that those regulations should not affeect any properly conducted club, whether it was a working man's club or a club in Pall Mall. This Amendment would do good with regard to the bogus clubs, but if it was not accepted, 1493 serious harm would be done to the well-conducted clubs which everybody wanted to protect. He thought the provisions for attacking the bogus clubs suggested by the hon. Member were good, because if there was the slightest ground for complaint and the chief constable's fiat was obtained, the matter would go forward at once.
§ MR. STANGER (Kensington, N.)pointed out that the chief constable had very limited power to make investigations. He could not summon witnesses, and if he had a witness before him he could not make him say anything. If the witness did say anything, then he could not be cross-examined. Therefore to hand this matter over to the chief constable would greatly weaken the Bill. Another point to which he would draw attention was this. The Committee had to bear in mind the provisions of the Act of 1902. What an absurdity it would be if they enacted that only one day of the year, the day when these clubs came up for renewal of registration before the Court, could be set aside for this purpose, while on the other 364 days in the year any person, without restriction, whether in the district or not, whether interested in the premises or not, whether he was a spy or a respectable person desirous of the good of the community, could go and make a complaint in writing when all these consequences would at once arise, and members of the clubs would have to come up and give evidence to rebut the objections.
§ MR. MIDDLEBROOK (Leeds, S.)said he was fully in sympathy with the objects of hon. Gentlemen opposite, but did not agree with their methods of obtaining that object. The Amendment proposed to make the chief constable the only prosecutor in this case. By so doing, they would lessen the public sense of responsibility and the public interest in the management of these clubs. The Amendment was entirely distinct, and had no analogy to the cases which had been instanced where the fiat of the Attorney-General was applied for. In those cases the Attorney-General formed his opinion as to whether there was a prima facie case. If he thought there was, he issued his fiat and left it to those who applied, to bring the action and take the responsibility. But in this case all the burden and responsibility for carrying out the prosecutions were placed upon the chief constable. There were many ways of attaining the object of hon. Gentlemen opposite. There might be power in the magistrates to order security for costs in cases where they thought the objection was frivolous. For these reasons, while agreeing with the object of the Amendment, as he did not think it would carry out the intentions of hon. Gentlemen opposite he could not support it.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee, divided:—Ayes, 95; Noes, 166. (Division List No. 332.)
1495| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt Hn. Sir Alex F. | Courthope, G. Loyd | Hudson, Walter |
| Ashley, W. W. | Crooks, William | Johnson, John (Gateshead) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Curran, Peter Francis | Jowett, F. W. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Duncan, Robert (Lanark Govan | Joynson-Hicks, William |
| Balfour, Rt Hn. A. J. (City Lond.) | Faber, George Denison (York) | Kelley, (George D. |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Fletcher, J. S. | Kimber, Sir Henry |
| Baring, Capt. Hn. G (Winchester | Glover, Thomas | King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) |
| Barnes, G. N. | Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Pickham) | Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm. |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Gretton, John | Lowe, Sir Francis William |
| Bottomley, Horatio | Guinness, W. E. Bury S. Edm.) | Lupton, Arnold |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Lynch, H. B. |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Brooke, Stopford | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Helmsley, Viscount | Morrison-Bell, Captain |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Hills, J. W. | Nield, Herbert |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Hodge, John | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Hogan, Michael | Oddy, John James |
| Clynes, J. R. | Houston, Robert Paterson | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Paulton, James Mellor | Seddon, J. | Walton, Joseph |
| Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington | Shackleton, David James | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton) | Starkey, John R. | Wardle, George J. |
| Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Steadman, W. C. | White, Patrick (Heath, North) |
| Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Ratcliffe, Major R. F. | Stone, Sir Benjamin | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Summerbell, T. | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- |
| Remnant, James Farquharson | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Young, Samuel |
| Renwick, George | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) | Younger, George |
| Richardson, A. | Thorne, William (West Ham) | |
| Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Salter, Arthur Clavell | Walrond, Hon. Lionel | George Roberts and Mr. |
| Sehwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) | Walsh, Stephen | Charles Duncan. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland Francis Dyke | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) |
| Agnew, George William | Hedges, A. Paget | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Helme, Norval Watson | Robinson, S. |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Hemmerde, Edward George | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Hobart, Sir Robert | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Armitage, R. | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N. | Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Horridge, Thomas Gardner | Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Hutton, Alfred Eddison | Sears, J. E. |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Seely, Colonel |
| Barard, E. B. | Jacoby, Sir James Alfred | Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick, B.) |
| Bennett, E. N. | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Kekewich, Sir George | Silcock, Thomas Ball |
| Boulton, A. C. F. | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Brace, William | Laidlaw, Robert | Snowden, P. |
| Brigg, John | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Lamont, Norman | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis | Stewart-Smith. D. (Kendal) |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Levy, Sir Maurice | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles | Lewis, John Herbert | Stuart, James (Sunderland) |
| Byles, William Pollard | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Comeron, Robert | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Lyell, Charles Henry | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Clough, William | M'Callum, John M. | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Mallet, Charles E. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton |
| Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W. | Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) | Torrance, Sir A. M. |
| Compton-Rickett, Sir J. | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) | Toulmin, George |
| Corbett, C H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd | Marnham, F. J. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Verney, F. W. |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Massie, J. | Vivian, Henry |
| Cox, Harold | Masterman, C. F. G. | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Micklem, Nathaniel | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co) | Middlebrook, William | Watt, Henry A. |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S. | Mond, A. | White, Sir George (Norfolk) |
| Dobson, Thomas W. | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh |
| Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Murray, Capt. Hn A C. (Kincard) | Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) |
| Evans, Sir Samuel T. | Nicholls, George | Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P. |
| Fenwick, Charles | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Ferens, T. R. | Nuttall, Harry | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Findlay, Alexander | Partington, Oswald) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Fullerton, Hugh | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.) |
| Gibb, James (Harrow) | Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Glendinning, R. G. | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro') | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Rees, J. D. | Joseph Pease and Master of |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th | Elibank. |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
§ MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON (Lanarkshire, N. W.)said he wished to move an Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Lincoln.
§ MR. CHARLES ROBERTS (Lincoln)said he did not move the Amendment to which the hon. Member referred because he desired to move another Amendment lower on the Paper.
§ MR. MITCHELL-THOMSONmoved to omit the words "registration or the," the effect of which would be, he said, to confine objections to the occasions when a club appeared to apply for renewal of registration. Though it might appear paradoxical, he moved the Amendment not because he had any objection to a strict inquiry when a club made application for the first time for registration, but because he thought he could show that there were very strong grounds for objecting to an inquiry such as this clause proposed upon the first occasion of a club's applying for registration. His objection was based on two grounds: in the first place, that the evidence which was sought to be adduced was absurd from the nature of the evidence itself, that it was of a kind which must be purely speculative, and which could not be brought; and, in the second place, he would show the Committee that no such evidence, nor any such words as those contained in the clause, would be in fact operative, and that, however they might seek to have an inquiry on the first application of a club for registration, they would have to provide different words if they wanted a really effective investigation. What were the grounds on which an objection might be made under this subsection of the clause upon the first application for registration? In the first place, it was on the ground that the club was "used or to be used mainly as a drinking club." Of course, it could not be "was used" on the first application. He would quote the grounds mentioned in Section 28 of the Act of 1902. Let the Committee consider the position. A club made its first application for registration. Somebody came forward and objected, and the grounds on which he was entitled to object under the Act of 1902 were these: "That the 1498 club has ceased to exist." Obviously that was inapplicable, as the club was applying for registration for the first time. "That the number of members is less than twenty-five." That was applicable. "That the premises are not adapted in good faith to a club, or that it is kept, or habitually used, for any unlawful purpose." That was clearly inapplicable on a first application. "Frequent drunkenness." That was also inapplicable for the like reason. "Illegal sales of intoxicating liquors have taken place." That, too, was inapplicable. "Persons not members are habitually admitted to the club merely for the purpose of obtaining intoxicating liquor." That was inapplicable. "The club occupies premises in respect of which a licence has been refused within twelve months." That was applicable. "Persons habitually admitted as members without an interval of forty-eight hours between their time of election, etc." That would be applicable. "That the supply of liquors in the club is not under the control of the members of the committee." That might be applicable. So that there were only three grounds out of nine applicable to a first application for registration, or he would put it three cases out of ten. He submitted that, looking at the clause from a purely technical point of view, that was extraordinarily bad drafting. If the Government wanted to give reasons for the proposal, and he thought they ought to give reasons, they should put them in a separate clause which plainly and specifically defined them, and not leave it to be inferred from a consideration of the provisions of the Act of 1902 in order to ascertain whether they were applicable or not on the occasion of a first application for registration. But even if they took these provisions and read the words of the clause into the Act of 1902, which was intended for renewals, and not for first registration, then the intention of the Government would not be carried out. The words which they were going to put into the clause were the words of the Scottish Act as construed by the Solicitor-General, who said that there was no difference between them. He regarded them as being different, but 1499 he would take the hon. and learned Gentleman's statement that there was no difference. But the Committee should have been told that as regards first registration the Scottish Act was notoriously an inoperative farce, and the Government knew it, or if the Solicitor-General and the representatives of the Government did not know it, they ought to have known it. The magistrates of Glasgow found that the sections of the Scottish Act were inoperative, and last March they came in full deputation to the Secretary for Scotland on the subject. The provisions which he had enumerated had broken down, and he would tell them why. They were inserted while the Bill was passing through Committee, and possibly they did not receive all the careful consideration which they ought to have received. Practically, and to all intents and purposes, those provisions were the provisions of this section of the present Bill. Under those provisions it was held by the Courts of Scotland to be an absurdity both in common sense and in law to ask for the rejection of a club's first application for registration on the representation by some person who had, by way of paralepsis, a speculative objection as to what a club was or was not going to do. It was held that it was not only bad in common sense but bad in law, and the Courts of Scotland held that that objection on this ground was practically non-enforcible. As a matter of fact the Courts in Glasgow, in this matter of first applications, were to-day purely ministerial; they gave registration practically to every club that applied, unless there was some other cause which clearly showed that the application ought not to be granted. That was the complaint which the Scottish magistrates made to the Secretary for Scotland. The right hon. Gentleman replied that their representations would receive the earliest and most favourable consideration; yet here they found these same grounds of objection, which were cause of complaint, being embodied in the present Bill. This was the result of legislating in water-tight compartments. One Department of the Government apparently had no communication with another Department. Frankly, he was anxious that the provisions as to registration should be made effective. 1500 He was anxious that when a club made its first application for registration there should be inquiry in order to ascertain that it was a proper club to register. As regarded inquiry into the character of the persons who were going to make the application he thought that it was a good and proper provision. If they embodied these provisions in the subsection they would be, as they had been in the Scottish Act, absolutely ineffective and inoperative. They depended entirely on objections of a speculative character, a character which the Courts in Scotland had held was not legitimate, and could not be upheld. He respectfully asked the Solicitor-General and the Government if they were really anxious to have provisions applicable to a first application by a club for registration, to put them into a new subsection of their own, where they would really be effective. He begged to move.
§
Amendment moved—
In page 18, lines 23 and 24, to leave out the words 'registration or the.'"—(Mr. Mitchell-Thomson.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'registration' stand part of the clause."
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid the hon. Member had left him in doubt at the end of his speech as to whether he was in favour of the particular provisions apart from the place in which they were in the Bill. They must adhere to the clause. They could not at this stage bring up a new clause to deal with registration in the first instance. It was absolutely necessary that there should be some such provision as this or else the Act in this matter would not achieve the good results that they hoped from it. The hon. Member wanted, apparently, the automatic registration of clubs, whatever they were, wherever they were, in whatsoever kind of premises they were—that was the effect of the Amendment.
§ MR. MITCHELL-THOMSONThe hon. and learned Gentleman must not misrepresent me. I said the last thing I desired was the automatic registration of clubs; I want an effective registration of clubs, and the provisions of this section will not give it.
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid then he would not take up the time of the Committee in arguing. They were at one in their object and all he need say was that they could not bring up a clause of that
§ kind but must adhere to the provisions proposed.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 212 Noes, 44. (Division List, No. 333.)
1503| AYES. | ||
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Fuller, John Michael F. | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Agnew, George William | Fullerton, Hugh | Mond, A. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Gibb, James (Harrow) | Montagu, Hon. E. S. |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Glendinning, R. G. | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Glover, Thomas | Murray, Capt. Hn A. C. (Kincard) |
| Armitage, R. | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Nicholls, George |
| Astbury, John Meir | Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) | Norman, Sir Henry |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Gurdon, Rt Hn. Sir W. Brampton | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale | Nuttall, Harry |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Hart-Davies, T. | Partington, Oswald) |
| Barnard, E. B. | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Barnes, G. N. | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E. | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Bennett, E. N. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Haworth, Arthur A. | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd | Hedges, A. Paget | Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Helme, Norval Watson | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |
| Boulton, A. C. F. | Hemmerde, Edward George | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro') |
| Brace, William | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Rees, J. D. |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Higham, John Sharp | Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th |
| Brigg, John | Hobart, Sir Robert | Richardson, A. |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Brooke, Stopford | Hodge, John | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Hogan, Michael | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Horridge, Thomas Gardner | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Hudson, Walter | Robinson, S. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles | Hutton, Alfred Eddison | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. |
| Byles, William Pollard | Jacoby, Sir James Alfred | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Cameron, Robert | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Jowett, F. W. | Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne |
| Clough, William | Kekewich, Sir George | Sears, J. E. |
| Clynes, J. R. | Kelley, George D. | Seddon, J. |
| Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W. | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Seely, Colonel |
| Compton-Rickett, Sir J. | Laidlaw, Robert | Shackleton, David James |
| Corbett, C. H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Lamont, Norman | Silcock, Thomas Ball |
| Cox, Harold | Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich | Snowden, P. |
| Crooks, William | Levy, Sir Maurice | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Crosfield, A. H. | Lewis, John Herbert | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Curran, Peter Francis | Lupton, Arnold | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Steadman, W. C. |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S. | Lynch, H. B. | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Stuart, James (Sunderland) |
| Dobson, Thomas W. | M'Callum, John M. | Summerbell, T. |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Mallet, Charles E. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Evans, Sir Samuel T. | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Marnham, F. J. | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Ferens, T. R. | Massie, J. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro | Micklem, Nathaniel | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Findlay, Alexander | Middlebrook, William | Torrance, Sir A. M. |
| Toulmin, George | Wedgwood, Josiah C. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Treveryan, Charles Philips | White, Sir George (Norfolk) | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Verney, F. W. | White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh. | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N. |
| Vivian, Henry | White, Luke (York, E. R.) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton; |
| Walker, H. De B. (Leicester) | Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) | Wood, T. McKinnon |
| Walsh, Stephen | Whittaker, Rt Hn. Sir Thomas P. | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Walton, Joseph | Wilkie, Alexander | |
| Wardle, George J. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | Joseph Pease and Master of |
| Watt, Henry A. | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) | Elibank. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt Hn. Sir Alex F. | Helmsley, Viscount | Renwick, George |
| Balcarres, Lord | Hills, J. W. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Houston, Robert Paterson | Starkey, John R. |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Kimber, Sir Henry | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Marks, H. H. (Kent) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Morpeth, Viscount | Whitbread, Howard |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Morrison-Bell, Captain | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | Young, Samuel |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Nield, Herbert | Younger, George |
| Fletcher, J. S. | Oddy, John James | |
| Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. |
| Gretton, John | Rateliff, Major R. F. | Mitchell-Thomson and Mr. |
| Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Ashley. |
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 18, line 25, to leave out the words 'licensing justices,' and insert the word 'court.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ MR. RAWLINSONmoved to omit from the subsection the words "as a drinking club," and to substitute "for the supply of excisable liquor." The effect of the Amendment would be to strengthen the subsection. Objection could be taken to any club on the ground that it was used or was to be used mainly as a drinking club. He pressed very strongly on the Government to give the exact idea of what they meant by a drinking club. It was an absolutely new expression so far as he knew, and existed in no Act of Parliament at present. It would be exceedingly difficult for any bench of magistrates to determine exactly what was meant. The expression which he proposed to insert existed in the Scottish and, he believed, in the Irish Act as well. The term "drinking club" was certainly a vague term exceedingly difficult of legal definition. It would probably to most lay minds include what was simply a place in its nature illegal—a shebeen or a place where drinking was allowed improperly or 1504 mala fide, or in some way evading excise, or something of the kind. "Mainly for the supply of excisable liquor" would be very much wider, and would include undoubtedly clubs which depended practically entirely for their revenue upon the sale of excisable liquor. The alteration of those words would make the clause much more easy to administer. A club supported mainly by supplying excisable liquor, and making all its profits from that sale, would immediately close its doors if the sale was stopped. Nobody could give a legal definition of a drinking club. He might anticipate a definition given by an hon. Member below the gangway and suggest that a drinking club was a place where more than half the revenue was derived from the sale of intoxicating liquors. He begged to move his Amendment.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 18, line 26, to leave out the words 'as a drinking club,' in order to insert the words 'for the supply of excisable liquor.'"—(Mr. Rawlinson.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid that there had been no paucity of Amendments to the 1505 various clauses of this Bill, and asked the Committee to note that if there had been any great difficulty about the term "drinking club" an Amendment would have been put down before now. The hon. and learned Member reminded him that he could not give a legal definition of the term. He admitted that. It was not possible for any human being to do so. It was not a question of law, but of fact, since whatever difficulty and vagueness existed turned on the word "mainly" and not on "drinking club," which was a question of fact. What was a club that existed mainly for the supply of excisable liquor?
§ MR. RAWLINSONThat means that the bulk of its income is derived from profits on the sale of excisable liquor.
§ SIR S. EVANSWhat do you mean by bulk?
§ MR. RAWLINSONThe major part of its income; that is, more than half.
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid that if the hon. and learned Gentleman meant that, it was not his Amendment, but was the point that the Committee had already decided. Was it the policy of the party opposite to say that when a club made more than half its income out of its profits from the sale of excisable liquor it should be shut up?
§ MR. RAWLINSONsaid that he was under a slight difficulty in answering the question, because on this question he had voted with the Government. He hoped he had kept an open mind throughout the whole of the debates to find out where justice lay, and whether the real intention of the Bill was temperance or an attack on the brewers. If the latter, he would not support the Government; but if the former, he would occasionally do so.
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid there was not even the germ of an attack upon the brewers in this matter. If brewers created bogus clubs, of course they would come within the provisions of this clause. He had put his Amendment down to define drinking clubs, but that was a question with which a bench of justices would 1506 have no difficulty whatever in dealing. Supposing the hon. and learned Member were a stipendiary magistrate knowing all the circumstances, did he contend that he would not be able to make up his mind from the evidence whether the club was a drinking club or not? The mover of this Amendment had not given any explanation of the phrase "mainly for the supply of excisable liquor." There was no difference in meaning, in his view, between this Amendment and the word, proposed by the Government. The only difference was in the words; there was no difference in substance. He did not wish to prolong the discussion for any length of time, otherwise he would invite the hon. and learned Member to point out the difference between the two Amendments.
§ MR. MITCHELL-THOMSONsaid that the Courts in Scotland had held that, so far as first registration was concerned, the question of what was or was not "a drinking club" was not a question of fact at all. It was unfortunate that the word "mainly" was used in the Scottish Act, but it came from the present Lord Advocate, and that right hon. Gentleman's party had never taken exception to it. He wanted to know why the Government had departed from the precedent and put in words concerning which there had been no definition.
§ MR. RAWLINSONsaid his object had been served in raising the point. But the Government having before them the Scottish and the Irish Acts, had altered the words and brought in others. "Drinking club" was too vague, and indicated something of rowdyism, but an Amendment which said that a club existed mainly for the supply of excisable liquors brought in the question of profits made. He asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ *THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL, Yorkshire, Cleveland)moved an Amendment having for its object the inclusion in the grounds on which notices of objection may be lodged to the registration or the renewal of the 1507 registration of a club the ground "that the club is bound by any covenant, agreement, or undertaking, or is otherwise under an obligation to obtain a supply of any intoxicating liquor from any particular person, not being a club which was so bound or under such an obligation before the passing of this Act." The Amendment was one of some importance. It effected a large extension in the law relating to new clubs and to certain existing clubs. The Government had been quite alive from the beginning to the dangers that might arise after the passing of the Bill from the creation of clubs intended mainly for drinking purposes, and in order to safeguard the position, the Government proposed not only to provide that clubs which were mainly drinking clubs should not be registered and might be suppressed, but to prevent the creation of what might be called "tied clubs." Under the Act of 1902 it was provided that a club might be struck off the register if the supply of intoxicating liquor was not under the control of the members or a committee appointed by the members. But from many quarters it had been pointed out that that provision was not sufficient to prevent the abuse arising of persons engaged in the liquor industry fostering the creation and financing the operations of drinking clubs, in order to secure an additional outlet, for their products. The Government were anxious to adopt any suggestions that could be made for the strengthening of the club clauses in the Bill without causing undue interference with the amenities of properly conducted clubs. He believed that this proposal would not meet with opposition from any of the club representatives, and hoped that the Opposition, which had hitherto been endeavouring to induce the Government to weaken the club clauses, would on this occasion support them in an extension of them. The provision applied, not only where there was a legal covenant, but where there was some other understood obligation which bound a club to a particular brewer or distiller. It was not possible to go back on existing undertakings and to apply this clause to clubs which had been established in good faith, possibly with the assistance of some brewer, and which on the faith of the present law had entered into obligations and contracted debts. 1508 They were providing against the creation of new clubs by the brewers, and against existing clubs, which were not tied, becoming tied in the future. Some of his hon. friends had Amendments on the Paper which would tend to enlarge the scope of this provision, but after very careful consideration the Government were of opinion that it would be difficult to find any form of words which would enlarge the provision the Government had placed on the Paper without causing injustice and injury in other directions. His hon. friend the Member for North St. Pancras had given notice of an Amendment which only dealt with cases where clubs were owned or leased, but club premises might be mortgaged, or the furniture might be obtained on hire through a brewer, and an obligation created in that way. The hon. Member for East Northamptonshire proposed to add to the Amendment the words "or that any person or company engaged in the sale or manufacture of intoxicating liquor is either directly or indirectly proprietor of, or interested in the profits of, or finances such club." These words had an exceedingly wide signification. Take the case of men engaged in the brewing industry who were also the landlords of large estates. On these estates they might have built village clubs. These clubs might not be tied to a particular brewer, and yet by his hon. friend's Amendment they would be wiped out of existence unless the owner of the estate ceased his brewing business or sold the land and the premises of the club to an independent body or person. There were cases in which a club had issued debentures on its buildings, and one or more of the debentures might be held by a brewer or distiller, or wine merchant. It would surely be an extension far beyond the intention of Parliament to penalise a club in that position. After very careful consideration, and after testing many alternative forms of words, the Government had come to the conclusion that the Amendment was not insufficient to meet the needs of the case.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 18, line 29, at end, to insert the words 'on the ground that the club is bound by any covenant, agreement, or undertaking,
1509
or is otherwise under an obligation to obtain a supply of any intoxicating liquor from any particular person not being a club which was so bound or under such an obligation before the passing of this Act.'"—(Mr. Herbert Samuel.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted,"
§ MR. ASHLEY (Lancashire, Blackpool)said that although he had a great deal of sympathy with the Amendment, it seemed that if it was passed without modification they would do a certain amount of injury to the legitimate club. Supposing a club wished to make an agreement with a certain wine merchant to buy their liquor exclusively for a certain term of years, the club would probably be able to obtain far better terms than otherwise. Under the Amendment that would be absolutely prohibited. Therefore, he thought the Under-Secretary ought to introduce some modification to meet such a case. But even supposing he did, was the Amendment really necessary? Clause 28 of the 1902 Act provided that where a club had been registered in pursuance of that Act a Court of summary jurisdiction, on complaint in writing by any person might, if it thought fit, make an order directing the club to be struck off the register—and then there were certain grounds on which that might be done, the last of which was that the supply of intoxicating liquor to the club was not under the control of the members or a committee appointed, by the members. Surely that provision of the 1902 Act covered the very point the Committee was discussing.
§ *SIR FRANCIS CHANNINGsaid he was not at all convinced that the Amendments standing in his name and that of the Member for St. Pancras were not essential to the object they had in view. The real issue which they had to face in this part of the Bill was that when they swept away large numbers of public-houses and turned loose on a neighbourhood many persons who had accustomed themselves to excessive indulgence in drink there was an overpowering motive for the brewers to employ their capital in two ways. First, it was only too easy to find clubs which were in financial difficulties and to advance large sums of money to them. He did not wish in the least to detract 1510 from the essential point covered by his hon. friend's Amendment. It was of vital importance to prevent the establishment of tied clubs, but he urged the Committee fully to consider the other point which he was laying before them. Brewing companies might go to such a club and say, "We will make your club a great success, we will advance money and make things attractive," and nothing would be more easy than to evade the more stringent provisions of the Bill, unless there was a specific prohibition of such a course of action on the part of the brewery companies. Otherwise they might put in illusory committees of management and run the whole affair under the guise of a club. That evil was not guarded against unless they introduced words distinctly prohibiting the employment of brewers' capital in that way. Of course, the same argument would apply to the creation of new clubs. He was well aware that many clubs were in a struggling and impecunious condition. They would be an easy prey of brewers who would be most anxious to manipulate them in order to enlarge the dividends of their companies. The hon. Member for East Somerset, who had also an Amendment on the Paper, had given him many illustrations of cases such as he had just described having been actually carried out by brewing companies within the last year or two even employing the compensation received under the Act of 1904 for this purpose. Although there might be some hardship on a go'f club or a charitable club on a large estate, he believed these could be provided for otherwise. The real evil which they had to face was that while they were sweeping away by the Bill a large number of public-houses, they were creating an irresistible tendency to brewing companies to capture existing clubs, or create new ones. In a Memorandum circulated by the secretary to the Working Men's Club and Institute Union, it was stated that the union welcomed the Amendment of the hon. Member for East Somerset and other Amendments to effect the same object so long as they were not made retrospective. He begged to move to add to the Amendment the following words: "or that any person or company engaged in the sale or manufacture 1511 of intoxicating liquor is either directly1 or indirectly proprietor of, or interested in the profits of, or finances such club."
*THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMANsaid that an Amendment had been handed in which would come in before that of the hon. Baronet.
§ *MR. RAMSAY MACDONALD (Leicester)said he very much doubted whether the Amendment before the Committee would really carry out the intention of the Government. If he might venture to say so with respect, he did not think the Government understood the working of working men's clubs. If they inquired into the action of the tied clubs they would find that in only a comparatively small number of cases was there a covenant. The tie appeared in all sorts of ways. A number of workmen went to a licensed victualler or a brewer and said they proposed to start a club, and asked him to supply liquor up to a certain quantity. The drink was supplied and remained as a debt against the club. There was no covenant or obligation written or in terms, but they knew perfectly well that, if they ceased to deal with the person who had supplied the drink, that person would close upon them and the club would cease to exist. The question was whether such a transaction was covered by the expression "or otherwise under an obligation." He held that there was no legal obligation, but from a common-sense point of view, that club, which might be in debt to the person in sums varying from £20 to over £100, would still go to that person for their supplies of drink. Therefore, the Government had to go behind covenants, agreements, or undertakings, and consider all the circumstances which operated so as to take away free agency from the committee of the club in entering into a contract. It had been said that a club might find it convenient to enter into a contract with one wine merchant or brewer for the supply of liquor for a term of years, so that it might get its drink cheaper; but the difficulty was, could the Government devise a form of words to allow such contracts, but prohibit the tieing of clubs. He thought that the Amendment of the hon. Member for East Northamptonshire was much nearer the 1512 truth, and struck more accurately and definitely at the root of the evil than the words of the Government Amendment. He asked the Government to reconsider the question and deal with the obligation behind the formal obligation, deal with the circumstances which prevented committees of clubs from being free agents in ordering the drink consumed by their members.
§ LORD BALCARRES (Lancashire, Chorley)said he could not help agreeing with the hon. Member for Leicester that this Amendment would not carry out the object of the Government. The Under-Secretary had told them that his Amendment had been very carefully considered by the Government, but even if that were so, he believed that it would do an injustice to the tie system. He belonged to a club which might or might not be mainly used for drinking purposes—the Carlton Club. That club habitually made agreements with tradesmen, and the National Liberal Club did the same—to acquire a certain class of wine which was sometimes not to be delivered for two or three years, but, in the interest of the club and not in the interest of the tyrannous wine merchant, a covenant was entered into that when the liquor was required the article should be duly delivered. The club entered into precisely similar agreements for the supply of meat and bread. What was the good of saying that the club should not enter into an agreement with a wine merchant to supply wine? Under the Amendment if the club entered into such an agreement with any person to obtain liquor, then anybody might go to a stipendiary magistrate, raise an objection against the club, and the club might be shut up and all the members of the committee of the Carlton might be fined. That was not intended, but that was the effect of the Amendment.
§ SIR S. EVANSNo.
§ LORD BALCARRESYes, if the Carlton Club entered into an agreement with a particular person to supply intoxicating liquor. He would not enter into the point raised by the hon. Member for Leicester. So far as his own experience went the point was quite good. They were, however, going to inflict hardships in the case of straight-forward 1513 bona fide transactions and at the same time were not going to carry out the intentions of the Government. He agreed with the interesting statement of an hon. Member opposite that the adoption of this Bill would lead to the immediate multiplication of new clubs.
§ MR. MACLEAN (Bath)said he knew of the case of a club which was furnished by a brewer, and there was no obligation, covenant, agreement, or undertaking that the liquor for the club should be supplied by him. There was simply an understanding, and on the faith of that understanding the whole of the liquors used in that club were obtained from that brewer. He suggested to the Solicitor-General that in line 2 of the Amendment moved by the Under-Secretary the word "or" should be left out and after the word "undertaking," the words "or understanding" should be inserted. [An HON. MEMBER on the Opposition Benches: That's no use.] He suggested that such words as these would cover particular cases such as he had mentioned which occurred very often, and also the cases which were in the mind of the hon. Member for Leicester. He begged to move.
§
Amendment to the proposed Amendment proposed—
In line 2, to leave out the word 'or,' after the word 'agreement,' and to insert after the word 'undertaking' the words 'or understanding.'"—(Mr. Maclean.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'or' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
§ *MR. G. D. FABERsaid the Committee had arrived at rather a strange position, and the strangeness of it was caused by the fact that they were trying to do an impossible tiling. The Government wanted to prevent grown men, sane men, voters of this country, from making arrangements with any particular firm which they, of their own free will and accord, might wish to make. They could not do it whatever Amendment might be accepted by the House, and the people concerned would be able to drive a coach and four through the statute. While the panorama of this Bill had been slowly unfolded from day to day, and week to week, and he had had the honour of sitting there almost the whole time, one 1514 thing had become more and more clear to his mind, and that was that the desire for temperance on the part of the Government supporters had lessened, and the hatred of the brewer had increased, and perhaps to the hatred of the brewer he might add the hatred of the wine merchant. They knew that the human mind was very complex, and that sometimes a man might not be aware of the motives which were pushing him in a particular direction. He knew that there were a great many Members on the other side of the House who did genuinely desire to achieve temperance by means of this measure, but so complex, as he had said, was the human mind that as they on the one hand had not been able to achieve it and saw the Bill would not achieve it, they took refuge in an increased hatred of the person who supplied the drink. Surely hon. Members on the other side of the House wanted to do justice, and not simply and solely to run amok at the brewer or the supplier of intoxicating liquors. That was the effect of the Amendment. But working men's clubs did not purchase only intoxicating liquors. How about cigars and tobacco? How could a sensible Committee, which for the purpose of his argument he was willing to assume it was, say that a working men's club should not be "tied" to a brewer or a wine merchant but might be tied to the mineral water or the cigar merchant. The Amendment of the Under-Secretary for the Home Office did not even agree with the Minority Report of the Royal Commission. The Government had no right to injure any particular trade—the brewing trade or the wine merchants' trade—by saying that they should not be allowed to make agreements or arrangements to supply their liquors to the clubs of this country. He doubted very much whether it was of any possible advantage to the clubs, because after all, if they made an agreement with a particular firm they were not only able to get better treatment but they were very often able to get better liquor than if they bought from a number of firms instead of one. But on the larger point the Government could not treat working men's clubs in this country as if they were made up of children. There was no trust shown by the Government in 1515 their own Bill. They certainly did not trust each other. They did not trust the Opposition. They did not trust the licensing justices, and now they did not trust the working men's clubs to make their own bargains and supply themselves with intoxicating liquors from any quarter they pleased. The whole affair was being reduced to a farce. The Government were venturing on an impossible task, and in blindly trying to do mischief to a particular trade they were putting themselves in a ridiculous position.
§ MR. W. R. REA (Scarborough)said he ventured last night to suggest an Amendment on this very important question, and he was glad they had made a substantial advance on what was originally proposed. He looked upon this as one of the most important clauses of the Bill. It was absolutely vital to the principles they had at heart that this clause should be watertight, and that it should not be possible for clubs to make these bargains. The clause should be so carefully constructed that it should not be possible for the unlicensed club to take the place of the suppressed public-house. The Government had gone a very long way to meet the point he wished to put, in cutting a clear line between clubs which already existed and clubs which might be created in future with a view of evading the provisions of this Act. But they had only done that with respect to the "tied" club, and that did not cover all the evil, and he would show the Committee, as had teen done by the hon. Member for Leicester, and others, that it was easy to design a clause to cover all the cases which the Government desired to meet. He submitted they might attain the same end and achieve a much greater result if they would, instead of stating definitely that "tied" clubs were to be forbidden, state that in the case of all clubs created after the passing of this Act the magistrates, or whoever might be the registering authority, should have a very considerable discretion to say whether or not they would issue a licence. That would meet the case that had been raised in regard to "ties," and it would also enable them to meet other difficulties.
§ VISCOUNT HELMSLEY (Yorkshire, N. R., Thirsk)asked whether it was in 1516 order for the hon. Member to argue generally when there was an Amendment before the Committee.
THE CHAIRMANanswered in the negative, and said he thought the debate ought to be confined to the Amendment.
§ MR. W. R. REAsaid it appeared to him that useful as that Amendment might be where "tied" institutions were concerned, the same end would be much better attained if, instead of putting definite words in the Bill, they were to leave the question to the discretion of the magistrates, but it should be an unfettered discretion.
§ SIR E. CARSONthought they had a little reason to complain that an Amendment of this kind was only put on the Paper last night, because it would take away the opportunities they were to have had of discussing the Bill.
§ *MR. HERBERT SAMUELsaid the Amendment was put down a day or two ago, and slightly altered last night.
§ SIR E. CARSONsaid that that did not in the least affect the point. When the closure Resolution was passed they thought they had the matured Resolution of the Government, all the wisdom of the Under-Secretary and others who had been engaged for months in formulating this drastic proposal, but they had introduced that evening a great and broad proposal which really took away the opportunity of discussing the original Bill. Further than that, when they complained of this novel proposal they were told that the limited time originally fixed for Report was to be still further encroached upon. It was reducing the procedure of the House to an absolute farce. So far as the Bill itself was concerned, they were really compelled to employ the time given for its discussion not to the Bill, but to any proposition which any Member of the faddist section which supported the Government chose to put forward. He understood that the hon. and learned Gentleman was not going to accept the Amendment—at least he assumed that he was not going to ask a Court of justice or any other Court to tell them what was the "understanding." He had heard of contracts, agreements, and 1517 obligations, and of inquiries into contractual agreements, But inquiries into understandings he had never heard of. They would never get at a man's understanding. To put forward an Amendment of this kind was almost trifling with the Committee. What were the Government coming to when it was suggested that it should be put upon the Courts to inquire as to a man's understanding? The Amendment itself was difficult enough as he would be prepared to argue when this triviality was disposed of. He suggested that the ingenuity of hon. Members opposite, who were so anxious to get at the understanding of working men's clubs, the various actions of brewers' minds, and the peculiarities of the brains of those who sold and consumed intoxicating liquors, would be far better employed in bringing forward an honest Amendment such as "or on the ground that the club was accustomed to buy its liquor from any brewer or licensed publican." He offered that to hon. Gentlemen opposite as a real contribution to temperance. That would get rid of the whole difficulty, and no doubt would become extremely popular with hon. and right hon. Gentlemen like the hon. Member for Lincoln and the right hon. Member for the Spen Valley. He was not so sure that it would be so popular with the working men's co-operative societies, stores, and institutions of that kind. If in the short time that remained they were going to discuss questions of understanding, the whole of the provisions of the Bill as it originally stood would be left undiscussed. They should try and frame this clause in such a way as to get behind the right of the public to make such contracts as they pleased.
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid the Government were always glad of the right hon. Gentleman's assistance, but, unfortunately, he had not thought fit to table such an Amendment as he had suggested on the subject with which the Committee were now dealing. But that was no reason why they should not attempt to deal with the question. The hon. Member for York had said it was both undesirable and impossible to deal with this matter. That was not so. Although difficult, there was a problem to deal with. That was obvious from the last subsection of the Act of 1904 to which the hon. Gentleman 1518 referred. Everybody knew that it was intended by that subsection to put some curb on the evil that might be created by the existence of "tied" clubs.
§ SIR E. CARSONsaid the object of the subsection was to prevent a person keeping what he was pleased to call a club for his own profit. To distinguish a club from a public-house it was necessary that the members should provide for their own requirements, as they did in their private houses, and this subsection was to prevent a man from keeping a public-house and calling it a club. That was why the committee of control was put in.
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid the evil that had to be grappled with was the evil of somebody being the proprietor of a club, and being able to bring pressure on the members to buy liquor of him. The hon. Member for York had said there was enough in the existing subsection to deal with that. That might be so, but it was acknowledged by everyone that the subsection having that intention in it had not been successful in thwarting the evil. The control mentioned in it did not mean legal control, and they had to go outside the subsection to obtain legal control. With regard to the Amendment, he would not like the word "understanding," but there must be some words. The words the Government had used were "or is otherwise under an obligation." The words, covenant, agreement and undertaking, all imparted a legal idea, but it was pointed out with great force by the hon. Member for Leicester that it was not every covenant, agreement, or undertaking, which ought to be dealt with. Some were genuine and bona fide, as was the case in regard to the Carlton Club which had been referred to, which bought its wine and had it delivered over a period of years. That should, of course, not be sufficient to take away the licence of the Carlton Club. He hoped the Committee would bear in mind that what the Government were doing here was to add another ground of objection only. They did not say that because there was a covenant, agreement, or undertaking, to buy liquor from a particular person, it should be impossible to register a club. That would be simply fatuous. Therefore, what they had done was to 1519 put in words so that the justices, if any objection was made by reason of the dealings of a club with regard to liquor, might either uphold or dismiss the objection as they thought fit. There must be some words, because it was perfectly obvious that if the evil could arise without any legal obligation, it could arise with, a legal obligation. If they found a covenant to deal exclusively with a brewer, it might be perfectly proper for the justices to take that into consideration in deciding whether they would register the club or not. Those words therefore must be put in. They were of legal importance. The Government, however, went outside the legal matters coming immediately under these words when they came to the next words "or is otherwise under an obligation." He knew of no way of being under an obligation in law other than an obligation arising out of a covenant, agreement, or undertaking. They therefore, in saying "or is otherwise under an obligation to obtain a supply," went outside the four corners of the legal obligation.
§ SIR E. CARSONWould the hon. Gentleman tell us what obligation there can be in an Act of Parliament except a legal obligation?
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid it was not a question of creating an obligation by Act of Parliament.
§ SIR E. CARSONHave you any obligation except a legal one in an Act of Parliament?
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid they were not creating an obligation in an Act of Parliament; they were dealing with an obligation entirely outside an Act of Parliament. The "control" contemplated in the Act of 1902 could not be a legal control; it was absolutely impossible. There was the same kind of idea in the word "control" as they intended to be expressed in the word "obligation."
§ SIR E. CARSONGive an instance of it.
§ SIR S. EVANSsaid the "obligation" therefore was something outside a legal obligation. He thought the Committee or the great majority of the Committee was clearly of opinion that, circumstances under which, an obligation of that kind 1520 arose must be dealt with. Suppoisng a man was the mortgagee of a place, he had absolute control over it. He knew the mortgage could not be paid off and he knew he could foreclose at any time and become the absolute owner of the property. It was obvious there that there was a power of control, a power of exercising pressure upon the members of the club. That was the same kind of pressure referred to by the hon. Member for Leicester. Apart from the historic form of covenant they had in a mortgage, there might be other circumstances in which a man was the creditor and the club the debtor. In such a case they would have that kind of pressure put upon the committee which would make it impossible for them to get their drink elsewhere; and, to all intents and purposes, whatever the intention of the committee might be, that made it a proprietary club. The Government were not wedded to the words in the Amendment. They certainly could not adopt the words used by his hon. friend, and he would ask him to withdraw his Amendment, if he saw fit, in order that they might discuss the wider Amendment in the name of the Under-Secretary. What they wanted to do was to provide against the evil which arose from there being any thing in the nature of a proprietary interest or control, by reason of the existence of the state of debtor and creditor, but, with regard to the actual words, they were certainly not wedded to those proposed. He thought they carried out the object; but if there should be any others suggested from whatever quarter they would be perfectly prepared to consider them.
§ MR. WYNDHAMsaid there were very few minutes left in which to endeavour to effect a divorce between the Government and the words to which they said they were not welded, and to find some other words on which they might be more happily united. The Solicitor-General had asked his hon. friend to withdraw his Amendment, but he prefaced that request by reviewing the Government Amendment and justifying it by a reference to words which occurred at the end of the next subsection, and by wrapping up the whole defence in an interpretation he placed upon certain words in the Act of 1902. 1521 Under those circumstances perhaps he might be allowed, very briefly, to cover some portion of the field the Solicitor-General had traversed. His only plausible defence was that the words in the previous Act—
That the supply of intoxicating liquor to a club is not under the control of the members or committee appointed by the members—really covered, if properly interpreted, the Amendment for which the Government was responsible. That was a ground of objection which the framers of the Act of 1902 thought a valid ground, and, as his hon. and learned friend had explained, those words appeared in that Act in order that the club, and the committee of the club, should be the parties considered and not a single individual occupying the position of a publican who was the tenant of a house. The Solicitor-General had put another interpretation on the words. The Government Amendment directed legislation not against a club in which one person acted as the proprietor and in which the members were not concerned, but against the members of a club and their committee regularly elected. That was the distinction. The only plausible defence, therefore, which the Solicitor-General had put forward, viz., that the words in the Act of 1902 covered his, might, he thought, be swept away; and they had to consider his action in its naked simplicity without the gauze drawn from their own legislation. The action contemplated by the Government was that the real club, the bona fide members and their committee regularly elected, were to be subjected to the annoyance year after year, of interpolation by any person residing in any part of the United Kingdom. The Solicitor-General said that the club members and the committee might have an objection lodged against them by anybody if the club members and their committee had entered into any covenant, agreement, or undertaking. It followed that if they had entered into any of these contracts, which he thought were perfectly legal and proper, they would still be subjected to this annoyance. If they had undertaken to buy their beer for six months from any brewer, it would, under the Amendment, be open to anybody living in any part of England to lodge an objection against the bona fide 1522 members of the club and their committee properly elected. But he put it forward, as a speculation—he quoted the hon. Gentleman's words—that "nobody would object on that ground." Were they to depend upon that? Were the members of every workmen's club in England to depend upon the opinion of the Solicitor-General that nobody in England would ever advance an objection because they had entered into a contract with a brewer? That was the very reason on which the strict objector advanced his objection. Why, when he had that objection presented to him in an Act of Parliament, should he search further afield? Here was his strict case. He could go forward every time and say the club had broken a provision of the Licensing Act by entering into a covenant or agreement. The Solicitor-General was not satisfied with that. He wished to add further words—not the word "understanding"—words not yet devised, which would give the strict objector a wider field for harrassing interference with the social centres of the working classes on the ground that the bona fide members of any workmen's club and the committee elected by them, had entered into a contract for some part of the provisions they required.
§ *MR. HERBERT SAMUELsaid that hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed to think it was utterly impracticable to attempt in any way to prevent the system of tied clubs, and, not only impracticable, but a gross interference with the liberty of grown men to prevent them entering into any contract they pleased. He gathered that the view of the right hon. Gentleman who had just spoken and the right hon. and learned Gentleman beside him was that the words in the Act of 1902 "that the supply is not under the control" were not intended to aim at the system of tied clubs, but he found, on reference to Hansard, that Mr. Ritchie, in moving the Amendment, used the following words—
The object of the Amendment standing in his name was simply to deal with the clubs established simply for the sale of liquor and for the purpose of profit to those who supplied the liquor.That was the purpose also of their Amendment. A point had been raised by the hon. Member for Manchester and other 1523 Members, and it needed to be met. They said that ordinary contracts to purchase might be believed to come within the meaning of the clause. Of course, that was not by any means the intention of the clause. They wished to deal with what might be called the tied club, and not the free club. Both might have a contract to purchase, but in the case of the tied club, besides the mere sale of liquor there was the tie; there was an understanding, an obligation, other and beyond the ordinary contract to purchase liquor for the supply of members. In order to meet that point words would be placed upon the Paper before the next stage to make it quite clear that the application of the clause was only in a case where the club was constrained to purchase liquor by the fact that the supplier of liquor had a proprietary interest in the club, or was a creditor of the club, or words to that effect.
§ SIR E. CARSONMay I ask when we shall see the words?
§ *MR. HERBERT SAMUELAt the earliest possible moment; probably the day after the Committee stage is over.
§ MR. MACLEANasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
§ Leave refused.
§ Amendment to proposed Amendment negatived.
§ And, it being half-past Ten of the clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, in pursuance of the Order of the House of 17th July, to put forthwith the Question on the Amendment already proposed from the Chair.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 299; Noes, 88. (Division List No. 334.)
1527| AYES. | ||
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Cameron, Robert | Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W. |
| Adkins, W. Ryland D. | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Glendinning, R. G. |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Cawley, Sir Frederick | Glover, Thomas |
| Agnew, George William | Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Cheetham, John Frederick | Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Clough, William | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Clynes, J. R. | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward |
| Armitage, R. | Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Gulland, John W. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W. | Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton |
| Astbury, John Meir | Compton-Rickett, Sir J. | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd | Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendal |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Cory, Sir Clifford John | Hardie, J. Keir (Metrhyr Tydvil) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) |
| Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset) | Cowan, W. H. | Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Cox, Harold | Hart-Davies, T. |
| Barnard, E. B. | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) |
| Barnes, G. N. | Crooks, William | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E. |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Crossley, William J. | Harwood, George |
| Beale, W. P. | Curran, Peter Francis | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) |
| Beauchamp, E. | Dalmeny, Lord | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |
| Beaumont, Hon. Hubert | Dalziel, James Henry | Haworth, Arthur A. |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Davies, David (Montgomery Co. | Hedges, A. Paget |
| Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt | Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan) | Helme, Norval Watson |
| Bennett, E. N. | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Hemmerde, Edward George |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Bethell Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) |
| Boulton, A. C. F. | Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N. | Henry, Charles S. |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Dobson, Thomas W. | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) |
| Brace, William | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) |
| Brigg, John | Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Higham, John Sharp |
| Bright, J. A. | Erskine, David C. | Hobart, Sir Robert |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Essex, R. W. | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. |
| Brooke, Stopford | Esslemont, George Birnie | Hodge, John |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Evans, Sir Samuel T. | Hooper, A. G. |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Fenwick, Charles | Horridge, Thomas Gardner |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Ferens, T. R. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Ferguson, R. C. Munro | Hudson, Walter |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Findlay, Alexander | Hutton, Alfred Eddison |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Fuller, John Michael F. | Hyde, Clarendon |
| Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles | Fullerton, Hugh | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel |
| Byles, William Pollard | Gibb, James (Harrow) | Jacoby, Sir James Alfred |
| Jardine, Sir J. | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Spicer, Sir Albert |
| Johnson, John (Gateshead | Nuttall, Harry | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Stanley, Albert (Stalls, N. W.) |
| Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Grady, J. | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh. |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Parker, James (Halifax) | Steadman, W. C. |
| Jowett, F. W. | Partington, Oswald | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Kearley, Sir Hudson E. | Paulton, James Mellor | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| Kekewich, Sir George. | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leck) | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Kelley, George D. | Pearce, William (Limehouse | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Perks, Sir Robert William | Stuart, James (Sunderland) |
| Laidlaw, Robert | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Summerbell, T. |
| Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Pirie, Duncan V. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe |
| Lamont, Norman | Pollard, Dr. | Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury |
| Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Levy, Sir Maurice | Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Radford, G. H. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Rainy, A. Rolland | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Lupton, Arnold | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | Toulmin, George |
| Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Lyell, Chares Henry | Rees, J. D. | Verney, F. W. |
| Lynch, H. B. | Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th | Vivian, Henry |
| Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) |
| Macdonald J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs | Richardson, A. | Walsh, Stephen |
| Mackarness, Frederic C. | Ridsdale, E. A. | Walters, John Tudor |
| Maclean, Donald | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Walton, Joseph |
| Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Ward W. Dudley (Southampton |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan |
| M'Callum, John M. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| M'Crae, Sir George | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Waterlow, D. S. |
| M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Robinson, S. | Watt, Henry A. |
| M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Robson, Sir William Snowdon | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Mallet, Charles E. | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | White, Sir George (Norfolk) |
| Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) | Roc, Sir Thomas | White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh |
| Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) | Rose, Charles Day | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Marnham, F. J. | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Whitehead, Rowland |
| Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. | Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) |
| Massie, J. | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P. |
| Masterman, C. F. G. | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Menzies, Walter | Scarisbrick, T. T. L. | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Micklem, Nathaniel | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Middlebrook, William | Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Molteno, Percy Alport | Scott, A. H. (Ashtonunder Lyne | Williamson, A. |
| Mond, A. | Sears, J. E. | Wilson, Hon. G. C. (Hull, W.) |
| Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Seaverns, J. H. | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Seddon, J. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Seely, Colonel | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Morpeth, Viscount | Shackleton, David James | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.) |
| Morrell, Philip | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.) | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Sherwell, Arthur James | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Murray, Capt. Hn. A. C. (Kincard. | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Wodehouse, Lord |
| Myer, Horatio | Silcock, Thomas Ball | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Napier, T. B. | Simon, John Allsebrook | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | |
| Nicholls, George | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Norman, Sir Henry | Snowden, P. | Mr. Joseph Pease and Master |
| Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Soares, Ernest J. | of Elibank. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F. | Bottomley, Horatio | Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Bowles, G. Stewart | Fardell, Sir T. George |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Bridgeman, W. Clive | Fletcher, J. S. |
| Ashley, W. W. | Bull, Sir William James | Gardner, Ernest |
| Balcarres, Lord | Carlile, E. Hildred | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. T. (City Lond.) | Cave, George | Gretton, John |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.) |
| Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester | Courthope, G. Loyd | Harris, Frederick Lovorton |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Craik, Sir Henry | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Cross, Alexander | Helmsley, Viscount |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Du Cros, Arthur Philip | Hill, Sir Clement |
| Hills, J. W. | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Nield, Herbert | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Hunt, Rowland | Oddy, John James | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) |
| Kerry, Earl of | Parkes, Ebenezer | Valentia, Viscount |
| Kimber, Sir Henry | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) |
| King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) | Percy, Earl | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Rasch, Sir Frederick Carne | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Farcham | Ratclilf, Major R. F. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Ronton, Leslie | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.) | Renwick, George | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Lowe, Sir Francis William | Ronaldshay, Earl of | Young, Samuel |
| Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Salter, Arthur Clavell | Younger, George |
| MacCaw, William, J. MacGeagh | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | |
| Magnus, Sir Philip | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Marks, H. H. (Kent) | Stanier, Beville | Mr. George Faber and Mr. |
| Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Starkey, John R. | Evelyn Cecil. |
| Morrison-Bell, Captain | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
§ The CHAIRMAN then proceeded successively to put forthwith the Question on the Amendments moved by the Government, of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded this day.
§
Amendments proposed—
In page 18, line 31, to leave out from the word 'the,' to end of subsection, and to insert the word 'Court.'
In page 18, line 36, to leave out the words 'licensing justices,' and to insert the word 'Court.'
In page 18, line 39, to leave out the words 'licensing justices,' and to insert the word 'Court.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
In page 19, line 3, to leave out the word 'such,' and to insert the words 'a specified.'
In page 19, lines 3 and 4, to leave out the words 'not exceeding.' and to insert the words 'which may extend to twelve months in the case of the first order made in respect of any premises and to.'
In page 19, line 4, to leave out the words 'as they think lit to direct," and to insert the words' in the case of ft second or any subsequent order made in respect of the same premises.'"—(Mr. Herbert Samuel.)
In page 19, line 4, to leave out the words 'justices,' and to insert the word 'Court.'
§
In page 19, line 8, to leave out the words 'licensing justices,' and to insert the word 'Court.'
In page 19, line 9, to leave out the words 'the same.'
In page 19, line 9, to leave out from the word 'manner' to the word 'and,' in line 11, and to insert the words 'provided by the Summary Jurisdiction Acts.'
In page 19, line 14, to leave out the words 'licensing justices,' and to insert the words 'Court from which the appeal is made.'
In page 19, line 14, at end, to insert the words 'During the pendency of any appeal under this provision against an order upholding an objection to the renewal of the registration of a club, the operation of the order shall be suspended.'
In page 19, line 15, to leave out the words 'licensing justices,' and to insert the word 'Court.'
In page 19, line 16, to leave out the word 'justices,' and to insert the word 'Court.'
In page 19, line 18, after the word 'shall,' to insert the words 'without delay.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
§ Amendments agreed to.
§ Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 306; Noes, 92. (Division List No. 335.)
1531| AYES. | ||
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Beale, W. P. | Burns, Rt. Hon. John |
| Adkins, W. Ryland D. | Beauchamp, E. | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Beaumont, Hon. Hubert | Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles |
| Agnew, George William | Beck, A. Cecil | Byles, William Pollard |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devon p'rt | Cameron, Robert |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Bennett, K. X. | Carr-Gomm. H. W. |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Berridge, T. H. D. | Cawley, Sir Frederick |
| Armitage, R. | Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd | Channing, Sir Francis Allston |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Boulton, A. C. F. | Cheetham, John Frederick |
| Astbury, John Meir | Bowerman, C. W. | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Brace, William | Clough, William |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Brigg, John | Clynes, J. R. |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Bright, J. A. | Cobbold, Felix Thornley |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Brocklehurst, W. B. | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) |
| Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset) | Brooke, Stopford | Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W. |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Compton-Rickett, Sir J. |
| Barnard, E. B. | Bryce, J. Annan | Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd |
| Barnes, G. N. | Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Cory, Sir Clifford John |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Cowan, W. H. | Jacoby, Sir James Alfred | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Cox, Harold | Jardine, Sir J. | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Crooks, William | Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea | Radford, G. H. |
| Crosfield, A. H. | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Rainy, A. Rolland |
| Crossley, William J. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) |
| Curran, Peter Francis | Jowett, F. W. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' |
| Dalmeny, Lord | Kearley, Sir Hudson E. | Rees, J. D. |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Kekewich, Sir George | Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co. | Kelley, George D. | Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Richardson, A. |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Laidlaw, Robert | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S. | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N. | Lamont, Norman | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd |
| Dobson, Thomas W. | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) | Robinson, S. |
| Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) | Lewis, John Herbert | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Erskine, David C. | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Essex, R. W. | Lupton, Arnold | Rose, Charles Day |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Evans, Sir Samuel T. | Lyell, Charles Henry | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. |
| Fenwick, Charles | Lynch, H. B. | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Kerens, T. R. | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Samuel, Herbert, L. (Cleveland) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs | Scarisbrick, T. T. L. |
| Findlay, Alexander | Mackarness, Frederie C. | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Maclean, Donald | Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) |
| Fullerton, Hugh | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne |
| Gibb, James (Harrow) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. | Sears, J. E. |
| Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W. | M'Callum, John M. | Seaverns, J. H. |
| Glendinning, R. G. | M'Crae, Sir George | Seddon, J. |
| Glover, Thomas | M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Seely, Colonel |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Shackleton, David James |
| Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) | Mallet, Charles E. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.) |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Gulland, John W. | Marnham, F. J. | Simon, John Allsebrook |
| Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John |
| Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Massie, J. | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale | Masterman, C. F. J. | Snowden, P. |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Menzies, Walter | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Micklem, Nathaniel | Spicer, Sir Albert |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Middlebrook, William | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Hart-Davies, T. | Mond, A. | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh. |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Steadman, W. C. |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E. | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Harwood, George | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Stewart, Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Morrell, Philip | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Murray, Capt. Hn A. C. (Kineard. | Stuart, James (Sunderland) |
| Hedges, A. Paget | Myer, Horatio | Summerbell, T. |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Napier, T. B. | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Hemmerde, Edward George | Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Nicholls, George | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Norman, Sir Henry | Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury |
| Henry, Charles S. | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Nuttall, Harry | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Higham, John Sharp | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | O'Grady, J. | Thorne, G. K. (Wolverhampton) |
| Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Parker, James (Halifax) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Hodge, John | Partington, Oswald | Toulmin, George |
| Hooper, A. G. | Paulton, James Mellor | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N. | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Yerney, F. W. |
| Horniman, Emslie John | Pearce, William (Limchouse) | Vivian, Henry |
| Horridge, Thomas Gardner | Perks, Sir Robert William | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Walsh, Stephen |
| Hudson, Walter | Pickersgill, Kdward Hare | Walters, John Tudor |
| Hutton, Alfred Eddison | Pirie, Duncan V. | Walton, Joseph |
| Hyde, Clarendon | Pollard, Dr. | Ward W. Dudley (Southampton |
| Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan | Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P. | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.) |
| Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Wiles, Thomas | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Waterlow, D. S. | Wilkie, Alexander | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Watt, Henry A. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) | Wodehouse, Lord |
| Wedgwood, Josiah C. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| White, Sir George (Norfolk) | Williamson, A. | Yoxall, James Henry |
| White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh. | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) | |
| White, Luke (York, E. R.) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Whitehead, Rowland | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) | Mr. Joseph Pease and Master |
| Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) | of Elibank. |
| NOES. | ||
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Gardner, Ernest | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Oddy, John James |
| Ashley, W. W. | Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gretton, John | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Guinness, Hn. R. (Haggerston) | Percy, Earl |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.) | Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.) | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Ratcliff, Major R. F. |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Baring, Capt. Hn. G (Winchester | Helmsley, Viscount | Renton, Leslie |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Hill, Sir Clement | Renwick, George |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hills, J. W. | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Houston, Robert Paterson | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Bottomley, Horatio | Hunt, Rowland | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Kerry, Earl of | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Kimber, Sir Henry | Stanier, Beville |
| Bull, Sir William James | King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) | Starkey, John R. |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Cave, George | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.) | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Clive, Percy Archer | MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Magnus, Sir Philip | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Marks, H. H. (Kent) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Cross, Alexander | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Young, Samuel |
| Du Cros, Arthur Philip | Morpeth, Viscount | Younger, George |
| Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan | Morrison-Bell, Captain | |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Nield, Herbert | Alexander Acland-Hood and |
| Fletcher, J. S. | Nolan, Joseph | Viscount Valentia. |
§ Clause 38 disagreed to.
§ Clause 39:
§
Amendments proposed—
In page 19, line 36, to leave out the words 'the secretary of a club.'
In page 19, line 39, to leave out the word 'the,' and to insert the word 'a.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
§ Amendments agreed to.
1532
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 19, line 39, after the word 'club,' to insert the words 'every member of the committee of the club.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
§ Question put, "That the Amendment be made.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 303: Noes 91. (Division List No. 336.)
1535| AYES. | ||
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Barnard, E. B. | Brigg, John |
| Adkins, W. Ryland P. | Barnes, G. N. | Bright, J. A. |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Barran, Rowland Hirst | Brocklehurst, W. B. |
| Agnew, George William | Beale, W. P. | Brooke, Stopford |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Beauchamp, E. | Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Beaumont, Hon. Hubert | Bryce, J. Annan |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Beck, A. Cecil | Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn |
| Armitage, R. | Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt | Buckmaster, Stanley O. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Bennett, E. N. | Burns, Rt. Hon. John |
| Astbury, John Meir | Berridge, T. H. D. | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd | Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Bottomley, Horatio | Byles, William Pollard |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Boulton, A. C. F. | Cameron, Robert |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Bowerman, C. W. | Carr-Gomm, H. W. |
| Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset) | Brace, William | Cawley, Sir Frederick |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Hobart, Sir Robert | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | O'Grady, J. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Hodge, John | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Clough, William | Hooper, A. G. | Partington, Oswald |
| Clynes, J. R. | Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N. | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Horniman, Emslie John | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Horridge, Thomas Gardner | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Perks, Sir Robert William |
| Compton-Hickett. Sir J. | Hudson, Walter | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) |
| Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd | Hutton, Alfred Eddison | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hyde, Clarendon | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Cory, Sir Clifford John | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Pollard, Dr. |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Jacoby, Sir James Alfred | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Cowan, W. H. | Jardine, Sir J. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central |
| Cox, Harold | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Crooks, William | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Radford, G. H. |
| Crosfield, A. H. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Rainy, A. Rolland |
| Crossley, William J. | Jowett, F. W. | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) |
| Curran, Peter Francis | Kearley, Sir Hudson E. | Rea, Walter Russell (Searboro' |
| Dalmeny, Lord | Kekewich, Sir George | Rees, J. D. |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Kelley, George D. | Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co) | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Laidlaw, Robert | Richardson, A. |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Lamont, Norman | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N. | Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) |
| Dickson Poynder, Sir John P. | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd |
| Dobson, Thomas W. | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Levy, Sir Maurice | Robinson, S. |
| Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Lewis, John Herbert | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Erskine, David C. | Lupton, Arnold | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Essex, R. W. | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Rose, Charles Day |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Lyell, Charles Henry | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Evans, Sir Samuel T. | Lynch, H. B. | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. |
| Fenwick, Charles | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Ferens, T. R. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro | Mackarness, Frederic C. | Searisbrick, T. T. L. |
| Findlay, Alexander | Maclean, Donald | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) |
| Fullerton, Hugh | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) | Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne |
| Gibb, James (Harrow) | M'Callum, John M. | Sears, J. E. |
| Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrow, W.) | M'Crae, Sir George | Seaverns, J. H. |
| Glendinning, R. G. | M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Seddon, J. |
| Glover, Thomas | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Seely, Colonel |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Mallet, Charles E. | Shackleton, David James |
| Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) | Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.) |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Marnham, F. J. | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Gulland, John W. | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Silcock, Thomas Ball |
| Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton | Massie, J. | Simon, John Allsebrrook |
| Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Masterman, C. F. G. | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rosseadale | Menzies, Walter | Sineaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Micklem, Nathaniel | Snowden, P. |
| Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | Middlebrook, William | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Spicer, Sir Albert |
| Hart-Davies, T. | Mond, A. | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E. | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh. |
| Harwood, George | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Steadman, W. C. |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Morrell, Philip | Stewart, Halley (Grcenock) |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Stewart-Smith D. (Kendal) |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Murray, Capt. Hn. A. C. (Kincard. | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Myer, Horatio | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Hemmerde, Edward George | Napier, T. B. | Stuart, James (Sunderland) |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) | Summerbell, T. |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Nicholls, George | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Henry, Charles S. | Norman, Sir Henry | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Higham, John Sharp | Nuttall, Harry | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) | Waterlow, D. S. | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Thomasson, Franklin | Watt, Henry A. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Thorne, William (West Ham) | White, Sir George (Norfolk) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) |
| Toulmin, George | White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh. | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Trevelyan, Charles Philips | White, Luke (York. E. R.) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Verney, F. W. | Whitehead, Rowland | Wodehouse, Lord |
| Vivian, Henry | Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) | Wood, T. M. Kinnon |
| Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) | Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P. | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Walsh, Stephen | Wiles, Thomas | |
| Walters, John Tudor | Wilkic, Alexander | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Walton, Joseph | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) | Joseph Pease and Master |
| Ward, W. Dudley (South'mpt'n | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | of Elibank. |
| Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan | Williamson, A. | |
| Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F. | Gardner, Ernest | Oddy, John James |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) | Percy, Earl |
| Ashley, W. W. | Gretton, John | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |
| Balcarres, Lord | Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) | Ratcliff, Major R. F. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.) | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Renton, Leslie |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Renwick, George |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Hadges, A. Paget | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester | Helmsley, Viscount | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Hill, Sir Clement | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Hills, J. W. | Stanier, Beville |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Houston, Bobert Paterson | Starkey, John R. |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hunt, Rowland | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Kerry, Earl of | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Kimber, Sir Henry | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Bull, Sir William James | King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt. -Col. A. R. | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Lyttelton, Rt Hon. Alfred | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Magnus, Sir Philip | Young, Samuel |
| Cross, Alexander | Marks, H. H. (Kent) | Younger, George |
| Du Cros, Arthur Philip | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | |
| Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan | Morpeth, Viscount | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Morrison-Bell, Captain | Cave and Mr. Salter. |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | |
| Fletcher, J. S. | Nield, Herbert |
§
Amendments proposed—
In page 19, line 40, to leave out the word 'twenty,' and to insert the words 'five pound in the case of a first offence, and in the case of a second or any subsequent offence whether in connection with the same or any other club ten.'
In page 20, line 5, to leave out the word 'secretary, and to insert the words 'any person.'
In page 20, line 5, at end, to add the words '(2) Section 25 of the Licensing Act, 1902, shall be read as if the names of the committee were included amongst the particulars
§
to be registered mentioned in subsection (2) of that section.'
In page 20, line 5, at end, to add the words 'Provided that the aggregate amount of the fines imposed for the same offence under this section shall not exceed twenty pounds.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
§ Amendments agreed to.
§ Question put, "That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 299; Noes, 88. (Division List No. 337.)
1539| AYES. | ||
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Agnew, George William | Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) |
| Adkins, W. Ryland D. | Ainsworth, John Stirling | Armitage, R. |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry |
| Astbury, John Meir | Findlay, Alexander | Maclean, Donald |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Fuller, John Michael F. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Fullerton, Hugh | M'Callum, John M. |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Gibb, James (Harrow) | M'Crae, Sir George |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Glen-Goats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W. | M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset) | Glendinning, R. G. | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Glover, Thomas | Mallet, Charles E. |
| Barnard, E. B. | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) |
| Barnes, G. N. | Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Marnham, F. J. |
| Beale, W. P. | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) |
| Beauchamp, E. | Gulland, John W. | Massie, J. |
| Beaumont, Hon. Hubert | Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton | Masterman, C. F. G. |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Menzies, Walter |
| Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt | Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale | Micklem, Nathaniel |
| Bennett, E. N. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Middlebrook, William |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'd) | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Mond, A. |
| Boulton, A. C. F. | Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) | Montagu, Hon. E. S. |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Hart-Davies, T. | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) |
| Brace, William | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) |
| Brigg, John | Warvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E. | Morrell, Philip |
| Bright, J. A. | Harwood, George | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Murray, Capt. Hn. A. C. (Kincard. |
| Brooke, Stopford | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Myer, Horatio |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Haworth, Arthur A. | Napier, T. B. |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Hedges, A. Paget | Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Helme, Norval Watson | Nicholls, George |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Hemmerde, Edward George | Norman, Sir Henry |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Byles, William Pollard | Henry, Charles S. | Nuttall, Harry |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | O'Donnell. C. J. (Walworth) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | O'Grady, J. |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Higham, John Sharp | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Hobart, Sir Robert | Partington, Oswald |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Clough, William | Hodge, John | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Hooper, A. G. | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N. | Perks, Sir Robert William |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Horniman, Emslie John | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) |
| Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W. | Horridge, Thomas Gardner | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Compton Rickett, Sir J. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Corbett, C H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd | Hudson, Walter | Pollard, Dr. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hutton, Alfred Eddison | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Cory, Sir Clifford John | Hyde, Clarendon | Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) |
| Cowan, W. H. | Jacoby, Sir James Alfred | Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Cox, Harold | Jardine, Sir J. | Radford, G. H. |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Rainy, A. Rolland |
| Crooks, William | Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) |
| Crosfield, A. H. | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro') |
| Crossley, William J. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Rees, J. D. |
| Curran, Peter Francis | Jowett, F. W. | Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th) |
| Dalmeny, Lord | Kearley, Sir Hudson E. | Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n) |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Kekewich, Sir George | Richardson, A. |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co. | Kelley, George D. | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Laidlaw, Robert | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) |
| Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'd) |
| Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N. | Lamont, Norman | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis | Robinson, S. |
| Dobson, Thomas W. | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington) | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Rose, Charles Day |
| Erskine, David C. | Lupton, Arnold | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Essex, R. W. | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Lyell, Charles Henry | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Evans, Sir Samuel T. | Lynch, H. B. | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Scarisbrick, T. T. L. |
| Ferens, T. R. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs) | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) |
| Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) | Summerbell, T. | White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh. |
| Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne | Sutherland, J. E. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Scars, J. E. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Whitehead, Rowland |
| Seaverns, J. H. | Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury) | Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) |
| Seddon, J. | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) | Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P. |
| Seely, Colonel | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Shackleton, David James | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Sherwell, Arthur James | Thomasson, Franklin | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Shipman, Dr. John G. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Silcock, Thomas Ball | Thorne, William (West Ham) | Williamson, A. |
| Simon, John Allsebrook | Toulmin, George | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Verney, F. W. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Snowden, P. | Vivian, Henry | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Soares, Ernest J. | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) |
| Spicer, Sir Albert | Walsh, Stephen | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Stanger, H. Y. | Walters, John Tudor | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) | Walton, Joseph | Wodehouse, Lord |
| Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n | Wood, T. M Kinnon |
| Steadman, W. C. | Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | |
| Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) | Waterlow, D. S. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Strachey, Sir Edward | Watt, Henry A. | Joseph Pease and Mr. |
| Straus, B. S. (Mile End) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. | Herbert Lewis. |
| Stuart, James (Sunderland) | White, Sir George (Norfolk) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Fletcher, J. S. | Nield, Herbert |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Gardner, Ernest | Oddy, John James |
| Ashley, W. W. | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peekham) | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gretton, John | Ratcliff, Major R. F. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond) | Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.) | Renton, Leslie |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Renwick, George |
| Baring, Capt. Hn G. (Winchester) | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Helmsley, Viscount | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hill, Sir Clement | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hills, J. W. | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Bottomley, Horatio | Houston, Robert Paterson | Stanier Beville |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Hunt, Rowland | Starkey, John R. |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Kerry, Earl of | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Bull, Sir William James | Kimber, Sir Henry | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) |
| Cave, George | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S. | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | MacCaw, William J. Macgeagh | Young, Samuel |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Magnus, Sir Philip | Younger, George |
| Cross, Alexander | Marks, H. H. (Kent) | |
| Du Cros, Arthur Philip | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir |
| Duncan, Robert (Lanark Govan | Morpeth, Viscount | Alexander Acland-Hood and |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Morrison-Bell, Captain | Viscount Valentia. |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
§ Clause 10:
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 20, line 20, at end, to add the words '(2) During the pendency of any appeal against an order made under Section 28 of the Licensing Act, 1902, directing a club to be struck off the register, the operation of the order shall be suspended.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
1541§ Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
1542§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 297; Noes, 84. (Division List No. 338.)
1543| AYES. | ||
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) |
| Adkins, W. Ryland D. | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S. | Jowett, F. W. |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Kearley, Sir Hudson E. |
| Agnew, George William | Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N. | Kekewich, Sir George |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Kelley, George D. |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Dobson, Thomas W. | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Laidlaw, Robert |
| Armitage, R. | Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) |
| Astbury, John Meir | Erskine, David C. | Lamont, Norman |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Essex, R. W. | Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E. | Esslemont, George Birnie | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington) |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Evans, Sir Samuel T. | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) |
| Baring, Godfrey, (Isle of Wight | Fenwick, Charles | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset) | Ferens, T. R. | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Findlay, Alexander | Lupton, Arnold |
| Barnard, E. B. | Fuller, John Michael F. | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes |
| Barnes, G. N. | Fullerton, Hugh | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Gibb, James (Harrow) | Lynch, H. B. |
| Beale, W. P. | Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W. | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Beauchamp, E. | Glendinning, R. G. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs |
| Beaumont, Hon. Hubert | Glover, Thomas | Mackarness, Frederic C. |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Maclean, Donald |
| Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt | Gooch, George Pea body (Bath) | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Bennett, E. N. | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | M'Callum, John M. |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd | Gulland, John W. | M'Crae, Sir George |
| Boulton, A. C. F. | Gurdon, Rt Hn. Sir W. Brampt'n | M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) |
| Brace, William | Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale | Mallet, Charles E. |
| Brigg, John | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) |
| Bright, J. A. | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Marnham, F. J. |
| Brooke, Stopford | Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Hart-Davies, T. | Massie, J. |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Menzies, Walter |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E. | Micklem, Nathaniel |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Harwood, George | Middlebrook, William |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Mond, A. |
| Byles, William Pollard | Haworth, Arthur A. | Montagu, Hon. E. S. |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hedges, A. Paget | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick | Helme, Norval Watson | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Hemmerde, Edward George | Morrell, Philip |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Murray, Capt. Hn A. C. (Kincard. |
| Clough, William | Henry, Charles S. | Myer, Horatio |
| Clynes, J. R. | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Napier, T. B. |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Higham, John Sharp | Nicholls, George |
| Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras W. | Hobart, Sir Robert | Norman, Sir Henry |
| Compton-Rickett, Sir J. | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd | Hodge, John | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hooper, A. G. | Nuttall, Harry |
| Cory, Sir Clifford John | Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N. | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Horniman, Emslie John | O'Grady, J. |
| Cowan, W. H. | Horridge, Thomas Gardner | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Cox, Harold | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Partington, Oswald |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Hudson, Walter | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Crooks, William | Hutton, Alfred Eddison | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Crosfield, A. H. | Hyde, Clarendon | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Crossley, William J. | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Perks, Sir Robert William |
| Curran, Peter Francis | Jacoby, Sir James Alfred | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) |
| Dalmeny, Lord | Jardine, Sir J. | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co | Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Pollard, Dr. |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.) | Walters, John Tudor |
| Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) | Sherwell, Arthur James | Walton, Joseph |
| Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n |
| Radford, G. H. | Simon, John Allsebrook | Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan |
| Rainy, A. Rolland | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' | Snowden, P. | Watt, Henry A. |
| Rees, J. D. | Soares, Ernest J. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th | Spicer, Sir Albert | White, Sir George (Norfolk) |
| Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n | Stanger, H. Y. | White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh. |
| Richardson, A. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Ridsdale, E. A. | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) | Whitehead, Rowland |
| Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Steadman, W. C. | Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) |
| Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P. |
| Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd | Strachey, Sir Edward | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Robinson, S. | Stuart, James (Sunderland) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Robson, Sir William Snowdon | Summerbell, T. | Williamson, A. |
| Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Sutherland, J. E. | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Roe, Sir Thomas | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Rose, Charles Day | Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) |
| Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | Thomasson, Franklin | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Scarisbrick, T. T. L. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton | Wodehouse, Lord |
| Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) | Thorne, William (West Ham) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) | Toulmin, George | |
| Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Sears, J. E. | Verney, F. W. | Joseph Pease and Mr. |
| Seaverns, J. H. | Vivian, Henry | Herbert Lewis. |
| Seddon, J. | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) | |
| Seely, Colonel | Walsh, Stephen | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt Hn. Sir Alex F. | Fletcher, J. S. | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Gardner, Ernest | Nield, Herbert |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Ashley, W. W. | Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) | Ratcliff, Major R. F. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gretton, John | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond. | Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) | Renton, Leslie |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm. | Renwick, George |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Helmsley, Viscount | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hill, Sir Clement | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford. East) |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hills, J. W. | Stanier, Beville |
| Bottomley, Horatio | Houston, Robert Paterson | Starkey, John R. |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Hunt, Rowland | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Kerry, Earl of | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Bull, Sir William James | Kimber, Sir Henry | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Cave, George | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S. | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Young, Samuel |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Younger, George |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh | |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Magnus, Sir Philip | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Viscount |
| Cross, Alexander | Marks, H. H. (Kent) | Valentia and Lord |
| Du Cros, Arthur Philip | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Balcarres. |
| Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan | Morpeth, Viscount | |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Morrison-Bell, Captain |
§ Committee report progress; to sit again To-morrow.
§ Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 31st July, 1544 adjourned the House without Question put.
§ Adjourned at twenty-eight minutes before Twelve o'clock.