HC Deb 13 May 1908 vol 188 cc1203-15

Order for Second Reading read.

THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,) Tower Hamlets, Poplar

In moving the Second Reading of this Bill I desire to say at the outset that it is a very simple measure and a continuation of the policy already adopted in regard to the Post Office Savings Bank. Under the Act of 1904, acknowledgement is abolished in the case of deposits under £1 as it is found to be unnecessary, and the result of the abolition is a saving of £30,000 to the Exchequer in clerical work, printing, and other directions. It is now proposed to abolish acknowledgment of deposits up to £5, which will result in an estimated saving of £15,000. As a matter of fact, the smaller depositors do not pay any regard to the acknowledgment, very seldom keeping it as an evidence of their deposits. They would much rather not have it in many cases, because, coming by post on official blue paper, it is an indication to their friends and neighbours that they have a deposit, which they do not desire should be publicly known. [Cries of "Why not?"] I only mention it incidentally, but it is the view taken by a very large number of small depositors, so that no objection to the abolition of the acknowledgments will come from the depositors themselves. The Postmaster-General will fix the limit up to which no acknowledgment will be sent, but it will not exceed £5. The whole matter will be most carefully watched, and if any disadvantages accrue in the direction of fraud or any other way we shall not hesitate to go back to the old system. The danger that some people anticipate is that it may lead to a certain temptation to Post Office servants to fraud and embezzlement. I am glad to know that that has not been our experience. During the years 1899–1904 there were thirteen cases of embezzlement of Savings Bank deposits by Post Office servants, and in only three was it due to the acknowledgment which then existed. In each of those three cases the deposit was over the limit of £5. Since the Act of 1904 there have been several cases of embezzlement, and in only one has the acknowledgment been of service in preventing the fraud or assisting in its discovery. The risk of embezzlement is very slight, because its discovery almost immediately follows the offence. The depositors' books are constantly being examined, because small sums are continually being taken out and put in, and consequently any embezzlement would be immediately detected. The risk of discovery is so great that the temptation is reduced to a minimum. At all events as regards the abolition of acknowledgments up to £1 it has not led to any increase in embezzlement on the part of the Post Office servants. The proposal in this Bill is an experiment, and if it is found unsuccessful we shall not hesitate about going back to the old system. On the other hand, if it is a success it will save us an expenditure of £15,000 a year, and I think the very small risk involved is worth taking. I beg to move.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time"—(Mr. Sydney Buxton.)

LORD R. CECIL (Marylebone, E.)

said he looked upon this Bill with a certain amount of doubt because, though the figures of the Postmaster-General were perfectly accurate, the temptation to embezzlement was much greater when they dealt with larger figures. He did not propose to ask the House to take a hostile action against the main purpose of the Bill, but its form was as bad as it could possibly be. They were dealing with a subject that closely affected poor and, to some extent, illiterate, or not very highly educated, people. Therefore it was of the utmost importance that their rights should be defined in the clearest possible way, and that they should know when they were and were not entitled to protection. The Bill did not define a limit but left it to be fixed by the Department, and investors had no means of knowing whether they were entitled to an acknowledgment or not. Apart from that, the Bill was one of the worst examples of legislation by reference ever brought before the House. He would read to the House Section 1, which was as follows— 1. Section eleven of the Savings Banks Act, 1904, which relates to the discontinuance of acknowledgments of deposits under one pound shall extend and apply to deposits not exceeding such maximum amount as may from time to time be fixed by regulations made by the Postmaster-General with the consent of the Treasury under the Post Office Savings Bank Acts, 1861 to 1904. Imagine putting a section like that in the hands of an educated layman or even a lawyer. He defied any hon. Member to take up the Bill and know what it meant until he had consulted the previous Act. In the House of Commons they were able to consult Statutes without much trouble, but that was not the case with people outside. When he went back to the Act of 1904 he was still left in the dark, and he had to go further back to the Act of 1884. On taking up the other Act, he was faced with a lot of sections, the reading of which would show the bewilderment in which members of the public would be if they followed the course which he had been compelled to pursue in order to understand what this clause meant. He asked the House to conceive the bewilderment of a depositor who, having searched through two Acts of Parliament, was brought up to a long and obscure clause ending with the words toties quoties. Not only so, but the greater part of that Act was totally inapplicable to an entry in a deposit book. A great deal of it dealt with what would happen if a depositor did not receive an acknowledgment, and how many days' grace were to be given to the Post Office before the Postmaster-General was prosecuted for, he presumed, embezzlement. He did not himself exactly understand what was meant by the Act of 1904, which for this purpose was included in the Bill, where it said that an entry in the deposit book would be conclusive evidence of title in the same manner as an acknowledgment of a deposit by the Postmaster-General. Neither time nor words were saved by this method of legislation by reference. Any competent draftsman would put what was intended in the same number of lines without any reference whatever. All that had to be said was that the entry in the deposit book was to be conclusive evidence of the claim of the depositor. Any reasonably educated depositor would understand what that meant, but, as expressed in the Bill, he would not understand it a bit. He had protested more than once against this form of legislation. He believed it was done deliberately to make it difficult for Members of the House to understand what it was proposed to enact. It was not the draftsman who was to blame, but the Government who gave the instructions. It was to save them trouble; it was one of those clever devices which they were encouraged in by the official mind. In order to give the House an opportunity of expressing an opinion on this form of legislation, and in order to give the Government time to redraft the Bill and bring it up in proper form, be begged to move the adjournment of the debate.

CAPTAIN CRAIG (Down, E.)

in seconding the Motion said that the Postmaster-General did not seem to understand his own Bill, for during the discussion he had sent the hon. Member for South Tyrone to fetch the Acts of 1861 and 1884 in order that he might understand it. The drafting of the Bill was faulty, and if passed as it stood it would be unworkable. The explanation of the Bill given by the Postmaster-General was quite inadequate. There was to be, as the result of this Bill, a problematical saving of about £15,000 a year in connection with the work of a department whose profits were something fabulous. Surely it was going beyond reason to ask the House to pass a Bill which was to effect such a saving in connection with what was really the State bank for the poorer classes. The right hon. Gentleman had stated that there were very few cases in the memory of man where any default had taken place after a deposit had been made. But was not prevention better than cure. The popularity of the Post Office Savings Bank had depended on the extraordinary safeguards provided for making the deposits secure, and he did not think these safeguards should be taken away.

*MR. SPEAKER

The Motion now before the House is for the adjournment of the debate. The hon. Member is not speaking to that Motion.

CAPTAIN CRAIG

said he hoped the House would recognise the reasons which made it desirable to ask the Postmaster-General for a better Bill

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the debate be now. adjourned."—(Lord Robert Cecil.)

MR. REES

said he was astonished that such an objection to this Bill should come from the noble Lord because it was entirely owing to the influence of the profession which he adorned that the difficulty arose.

*MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member is not entitled to discuss that. The Motion before the House now is only one for the adjournment of the debate.

*MR. REES

In that case, Sir, I really do not know to what I am to address myself. I thought as the noble Lord moved the adjournment of the debate, I might refer to what he said, but as that is not so I can only say that this is a very short Bill, and is either a good or a bad one, and in no case can putting off its consideration be of any advantage.

*MR. SPEAKER

The noble Lord spoke on the Second Reading, and he concluded by moving the adjournment. That limits the discussion to the question of the adjournment.

*MR. REES

said the noble Lord's reasons for moving the adjournment, besides not being good in themselves, proceeded from what was, in a Parliamentary sense, and for the reason he had given, what he might without offence describe as a tainted source. If he could not reply to the speech of the noble Lord he did not know to what he should address himself.

MR. CLAUDE HAY (Shoreditch, Hoxton)

said the Postmaster-General himself gave ample reason why the debate should be adjourned. Among other things the right hon. Gentleman said there had been no defalcations worth considering. If that was so, why have a £5 limit?

*MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member is now discussing the merits of the Bill.

MR. CLAUDE HAY

said that the right hon. Gentleman had given ample reason for the adjournment. If the drafting of the Bill were amended it would be made more acceptable.

MR. SYDNEY BUXTON

We limit it to £5.

MR. CLAUDE HAY

said that if the Bill passed in its present form the operation might be limited to £1. The debate having clearly shown that the wording of the Bill was unsatisfactory, surely it was in the interest of public business that the measure should be withdrawn, remodelled, and re-introduced. It would then pass in a few minutes.

MR. HAROLD COX (Preston)

said that the Motion for the adjournment was unnecessary, for last year when this same subject of legislation by reference came up on a Post Office Bill—the Post Office was one of the worst offenders in this respect—the Postmaster-General very cordially agreed to remove that feature in Committee, and when the Bill reached Committee it was got rid of.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 41; Noes, 236. (Division List No. 92.)

AYES.
Ashley, W. W. Faber, George Denison (York) Salter, Arthur Clavell
Balcarres, Lord Hamilton, Marquess of Starkey, John R.
Baldwin, Stanley Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hay, Hon. Claude George Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Lonsdale, John Brownlee Thornton, Percy M.
Bignold, Sir Arthur Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Valentia, Viscount
Cave, George Mason, James F. (Windsor) Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Parkes, Ebenezer Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington, Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Younger, George
Craik, Sir Henry Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Cross, Alexander Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Lord Robert Cecil and Cap-
Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan, Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) tain Craig.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Bowerman, C. W. Cobbold, Felix Thornley
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Brace, William Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W
Acland, Francis Dyke Bramsdon, T. A. Corbett, C H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Branch, James Cory, Sir Clifford John
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Brigg, John Cotton, Sir H. J. S.
Armitage, R. Brocklehurst, W. B. Cox, Harold
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)
Astbury, John Meir Brunner, Rt Hn Sir J. T (Cheshire) Crean, Eugene
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Bryce, J. Annan Cremer, Sir William Randal
Barnes, G. N. Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Crooks, William
Barran, Rowland Hirst Buckmaster, Stanley O. Crossley, William J.
Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Burns, Rt. Hon. John Cullinan, J.
Beauchamp, E. Burnyeat, W. J. D. Curran, Peter Francis
Bellairs, Carlyon Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Davies, David(Montgomery Co.
Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex.Romf'rd Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)
Bothell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Cameron, Robert Davies, Timothy (Fulham)
Black, Arthur W. Cleland, J. W. Delany, William
Boland, John Clough, William Devlin, Joseph
Boulton, A. C. F. Clynes, J. R. Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N
Donelan, Captain A. Lardner, James Carrige Rushe Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Duckworth, James Layland-Barratt, Francis Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd
Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall Levy, Sir Maurice Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Elibank, Master of Lewis, John Herbert Robinson, S.
Erskine, David O. Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Esslemont, George Birnie Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Roche, Augustine (Cork)
Evans, Sir Samuel T. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Rogers, F. E. Newman
Everett, R. Lacey Macpherson, J. T. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Fenwick, Charles MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. Russell, T. W.
Ferens, T. R. MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Findlay, Alexander M'Callum, John M. Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter M'Crae, George Sears, J. E.
Fullerton, Hugh M'Hugh, Patrick A Seaverns, J. H.
Gill, A. H. M'Kean, John Shackleton, David James
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Manfield, Harry (Northants) Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.) Markham, Arthur Basil Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Glover, Thomas Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Stanger, H. Y.
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Marnham, F. J. Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)
Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Massie, J. Steadman, W. C.
Grayson, Albert Victor Masterman, C. F. G. Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Meagher, Michael Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Strachey, Sir Edward
Gurdon, Rt Hn Sir W. Brampton Micklem, Nathaniel Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Molteno, Percy Alport Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Hall, Frederick Money, L. G. Chiozza Summerbell, T.
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis Montagu, E. S. Sutherland, J. E.
Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Montgomery, H. G. Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Haworth, Arthur A. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Hayden, John Patrick Morrell, Philip Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Hazel, Dr. A. E. Morse, L. L. Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Hazleton Richard Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Helme, Norval Watson Murnaghan, George Tomkinson, James
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) Torrance, Sir A. M.
Higham, John Sharp Myer, Horatio Verney, F. W.
Hobart, Sir Robert Napier, T. B. Wadsworth, J.
Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Hodge, John Nolan, Joseph Walsh, Stephen
Hogan, Michael Norton, Capt. Cecil William Walter, John Tudor
Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Nussey, Thomas Willans Ward, W. Dudely (Southampt'n
Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N. O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid Warning, Walter
Horniman, Emslie John O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wason, Rt. Hn. E (Clackmannan)
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.) Wason, JohnCathcart (Orkney)
Hudson, Walter O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Watt, Henry A.
Hyde, Clarendon O'Doherty, Philip White, Sir George (Norfolk)
Idris, T. H. W. O'Grady, J. White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Isaacs, Rufus Daniel O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N. White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Jackson, R. S. O'Shaughnessy, P. J. White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Jardine, Sir J. Parker, James (Halifax) Whitehead, Rowland
Johnson, John (Gateshead) Partington, Oswald Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Pearce, William (Limehouse) Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Jones, Leif (Appleby) Pirie, Duncan V. Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Joyce, Michael Power, Patrick Joseph Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Kearley, Hudson E. Pullar, Sir Robert Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Kekewich, Sir George Radford, G. H. Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Kelley, George D. Reddy, M. Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Kennedy, Vincent Paul Redmond, William (Clare) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Kilbride, Denis Rees, J. D. Winfrey, R.
Kincaid-Smith, Captain Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th)
Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n TELLERS FOR THE Noes—Mr.
Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Ridsdale, E. A. Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Lamont, Norman Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Pease.

Original Question again proposed.

MR. CLAUDE HAY

said he ventured to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to consider, when the Bill was in Committee, the alteration of the wording so as to make it more easy to understand. The speech of the noble Lord must have con- vinced the right hon. Gentleman of the great public inconvenience that would result if the Bill passed in its present form.

MR. SYDNEY BUXTON

said he did not think that this was a Bill to which the particular condemnation of the noble Lord really applied. All the information required by the depositor was contained in the Savings Bank-book, and in other documents which were given to him, and no clause in an Act of Parliament, however clear, would really affect him in any way. When the deposit was received that was the opportunity for making matters clear to him. He did not think that any clause in a Bill of this sort would make things clearer from his

point of view. If he acceded to the suggestion made and if the Bill was not to be one by reference a very large number of sections of different Acts would have to be brought in. He was afraid he could not agree to make any alteration in the Bill.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 215;Noes, 44. (Division List No. 93.)

AYES
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Donelan, Captain A. Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Duckworth, James Lamont, Norman
Acland. Francis Dyke Elibank, Master of Lardner, James Carrige Rushe
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Erskine, David C. Layland-Barratt, Francis
Armitage, R. Esslemont, George Birnie Levy, Sir Maurice
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Evans, Sir Samuel T. Lewis, John Herbert
Astbury, John Meir Everett, R. Lacey Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Fenwick, Charles Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Barnes, G. N. Ferens, T. R. Macpherson, J. T.
Barran, Rowland Hirst Ferguson, R. C. Munro MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Findlay, Alexander MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal, E.)
Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Flynn, James Christopher M'Callum, John M.
Beauchamp, E. Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter M'Crae, George
Bellairs, Carlyon Fuller, John Michael F. M'Hugh, Patrick A.
Bethell, Sir JH. (Essex, Romf'r Fullerton, Hugh Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Gill, A. H. Markham, Arthur Basil
Black, Arthur W. Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.) Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)
Boulton, A. C. F. Glover, Thomas Massie, J.
Bowerman, C. W. Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Masterman, C. F. G.
Brace, William Grayson, Albert Victor Meagher, Michael
Bramsdon, T. A. Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
Branch, James Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Micklem, Nathaniel
Brigg, John Gurdon, Rt Hn Sir W. Brampton Molteno, Percy Alport
Brocklehurst. W. B. Hall, Frederick Montgomery, H. G.
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Brunner, Rt Hn Sir J. T (Cheshire Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Morrel, Philip
Bryce, J. Annan Haworth, Arthur A. Morse, L. L.
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Hazel, Dr. A. E. Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Buckmaster, Stanley O. Helme, Norval Watson Murnaghan, George
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Higham, John Sharp Myer, Horatio
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Hobart, Sir Robert Napier, T. B.
Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r
Cameron, Robert Hodge, John Nolan, Joseph
Cleland, J. W. Hogan, Michael Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Clough, William Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Nussey, Thomas Willans
Clynes, J. R. Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N. O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid.
Cobbold, Felix Thornley, Horniman, Emslie John O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W Hudson, Walter O'Doherty, Philip
Corbett, C H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd Hyde, Clarendon O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Cory, Sir Clifford John Idris, T. H. W. O'Grady, J.
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Isaacs, Rufus Daniel O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.
Cox, Harold Jackson, R. S. O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Jardine, Sir J. Parker, James (Halifax)
Crean, Eugene Johnson, John (Gateshead) Partington, Oswald
Cremer, Sir William Randal Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Crooks, William Jones, Leif (Appleby) Pirie, Duncan V.
Crossley, William J. Joyce, Michael Power, Patrick Joseph
Cullinan, J. Kearley, Hudson E. Radford, G. H.
Curran, Peter Francis Kekewich, Sir George Reddy, M.
Davies, David(Montgomery Co.) Kelley, George D Redmond, William (Clare)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Kennedy, Vincent Paul Rees, J. D.
Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Kilbride, Denis Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th
Delany, William King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n
Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N. Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) Ridsdale, E. A.
Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Stewart, Halley (Greenock) Watt, Henry A.
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Robertson, Sir G Scott(Bradf'rd Strachey, Sir Edward White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Straus, B. S. (Mile End) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Robinson, S. Summerbell, T. Whitehead, Rowland
Robson, Sir William Snowdon Sutherland, J. E. Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Roche, Augustine (Cork) Taylor, John W. (Durham) Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Rogers, F. E. Newman Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Russell, T. W. Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) Wilson, Henry J (York, W.R.)
Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) Tomkinson, James Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Sears, J. E. Torrance, Sir A. M. Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras. S.)
Seaverns, J. H. Wadsworth, J. Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Shackleton, David James Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) Winfrey, R.
Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Walsh, Stephen
Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Waring, Walter TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) Wason, Rt. Hn. E (Clackmannan Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Steadman, W. C. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Pease.
NOES.
Ashley, W. W. Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan Salter, Arthur Clavell
Balcarres, Lord Fell, Arthur Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks Hamilton, Marquess of Starkey, John R.
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Bignold, Sir Arthur Hay, Hon. Claude George Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Butcher, Samuel Henry Hope, James Fitzalan(Sheffield) Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)
Cave, George Houston, Robert Paterson Thorne, William (West Ham)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Valentia, Viscount
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Mason, James F. (Windsor) Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Parkes, Ebenezer Willoughby, de Eresby, Lord
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington Younger, George
Craik, Sir Henry Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Cross, Alexander Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Dalrymple, Viscount Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Frederick Banbury and Mr.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) George Faber.

Question put, and agreed to.