HC Deb 11 May 1908 vol 188 cc742-65

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Motion made, and Question again proposed, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any Expenses that may be incurred and of any contributions that may be made under the provisions of any Act of the present session to consolidate and amend the Law relating to the Protection of Children and Young Persons."—(Mr. Herbert Samuel.)

SIR F. BANBURY (City of London)

moved to leave out the words "and of any contributions that may be made." He was afraid that the Motion was not understood by Members either on his own side of the House or on the opposite side. That was because the hon. Gentleman opposite had persisted in refusing to put the Resolution upon the Order Paper so that every Member of the House might have an opportunity of seeing it. He did not propose on that occasion again to refer to speeches of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, when Resolutions of that kind were introduced into the last Parliament by the then Government. On every occasion—and they were rare; he did not think more than one or two in the whole of the last Parliament—right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite vied with each other, first of all in saying that those Resolutions ought to be put upon the Order Paper so that Members might know what they were doing, and also in saying that the House should not vote unknown sums of money. The attention of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite had been called to that by hon. Members on his side of the House, including himself; they had read their speeches to them, but he was sorry to say that they did not seem inclined to profit by their own speeches, and, therefore, as he feared it was useless to expect that they, when in power, would adhere to any principle expressed by them in opposition, he did not propose to trouble the House with their speeches upon that occasion. He might say that all the Resolutions which he remembered until this one, of which, by the courtesy of the Clerk, he had been empowered to obtain a copy, had provided for the payment out of the Treasury of certain expenses. There was only one payment; it was to be for expenses incurred under the Bill, but this Resolution was different from all the others, because it provided for two objects, for "any contributions that may be made," and for "expenses." He had two Amendments down, the one he was now proposing, and the other to omit the expenses. As regarded the first, it seemed to him that the words were very vague, and that it was impossible to know what they covered. The object might be perfectly good, but the House was committing itself by the Resolution to approve of any contritions that might be made under any Act. At the present moment they were pledging themselves to he did not know what next year. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was present, and he hoped to have his support when he went into the division lobby. His solicitude for the reputation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer next year was one of the reasons why he desired to leave out those words. The right hon. Gentleman had a very hard task, and if he was to be bound by that Resolution all he could say was that he was very sorry for the taxpayer and also for the right hon. Gentleman. A few days ago the Under-Secretary, in asking him to assent after twelve o'clock to the passing of that Resolution, was most enticing in his manner, and he was not at all sure that had it not been for the stern sense of duty which animated him on that occasion he might not have succumbed to the wiles of the hon. Gentleman, but he put duty above everything, and did not succumb. The Under-Secretary said that the Resolution had nothing whatever to do with salaries. But it was not salaries that they objected to. It was the question of expense. They wanted to know what the expense was going to be and what the contributions were. He presumed that the Home Office had made some calculation as to what the cost and the contributions were going to be. If he was right in that assumption he wanted to know why the contributions were not specified. Why were they to give a blank cheque, even to the Home Secretary? He did not know anybody on that side of the House to whom he should have greater pleasure in giving a blank cheque, but he objected to giving blank cheques, even to hon. Members on his own side of the House, and he objected to giving blank cheques to hon. Gentlemen on the other. Therefore he wanted to know, first of all, whether or not the Home Office had made any calculations as to the amount of the contributions; secondly, if they had made those calculations, what they were; thirdly, why they had not been put in the Resolution; and fourthly, who was to contribute and to what. He begged to move—

Amendment proposed— In line 3, to leave out from the word 'incurred,' to the word 'under'"—(Sir Frederick Banbury).

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

*THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL,) Yorkshire, Cleveland

said that perhaps it would be for the convenience of the Committee if he saved time by saying a few words of explanation at once. The form of the Resolution he was told was precisely the usual form that it had always been the practice for the House to pass on occasions such as that. The House was not asked, as the hon. Baronet suggested, to sanction any contribution offhand that might be asked, or to give a blank cheque to the Home Secretary or anybody else. All that was asked was that it should grant permission to the Grand Committee upstairs now considering the Bill to make such monetary provisions in the Bill as might seem suitable to that Committee, and before any money could be granted under this money Resolution it must first have the sanction of the Standing Committee upstairs; secondly, the sanction of the House on the Report stage; thirdly, the approval of the Secretary of State before the grants could be made; fourthly, the approval of the Treasury; and fifthly, it would be subject to the review of the House when the grants were made on the Estimates that would be presented to it The Children Bill, in addition to its numerous other good qualities, had this virtue, that it did not create any new offices and that it did not propose any new salaries. There were three purposes with which the money Resolution would deal. In the first place the grants to day industrial schools were now limited to a very low figure. Only 1s. per week per child could be given as a maximum, and the result was that schools were being closed and day industrial schools were nowhere being developed. The Government proposed that the Secretary of State and the Treasury should be given power to increase the grants above the present low limit. This change was recommended by the Departmental Committee on Reformatories and industrial Schools, of which his predecessor the hon. Member for Ayrshire was chairman. This additional expenditure would, they believed, indirectly result in economies as children in future might be committed to a day industrial school instead of the much more expensive industrial schools now available. The second object for which money was required was to enable a lump sum to be paid so that children from industrial schools might be emigrated at the end of their sentences. At present there was no statutory power to make such grants. Money could only be granted for custody and maintenance. This change was also recommended by the Departmental Committee. The third and only other purpose for which money was needed under the Bill was to enable grants to be paid for the maintenance of children to be committed to places of detention instead of to prison. These grants would not be additional expenditure; they would be in substitution for existing expenditure. Children, instead of being sent to prison, would be sent to places of detention, and it was obvious that the money which would have been paid for them in prison should be diverted for their maintenance in places of detention. It was wholly impossible to estimate the cost of the various grants. They could not form a lump sum estimate of grants to be made per capita. They could not say how far the magistrates would commit children to day industrial schools instead of to other schools, and it was equally impossible to know how many children would be committed by the magistrates to places of detention. In these circumstances it was perfectly hopeless to expect any exact estimate, and he should not venture to lay before the Committee any figure. It must necessarily depend on the working of the Act when it came into operation, and upon the extent to which the magistrates made use of the various powers. If the grants were too high they would be criticised on the Estimates when they came before Parliament. He asked if the Committee would consent to the passing of the Resolution so that the Standing Committee which was now sitting week by week to examine the clauses of the Bill might not be hindered.

MR. ASHLEY (Lancashire, Blackpool)

said the Under-Secretary had given many excellent reasons with which he cordially agreed why the Bill should be passed, and had then proceeded to say that it was impossible to estimate what the expenses would be. The Under-Secretary had referred the Committee to the safeguards in the matter of expenditure, but it appeared to him that what the hon. Gentleman had said gave all the more reason why they should be very careful in parting with the powers which were inherent in this House, and why they should support the Amendment. It seemed to him that the Government were unduly hurrying the Resolution. He understood that the Standing Committee had dealt with only thirteen clauses of the Children Bill which contained altogether 119 clauses. Surely if they were going to pass a Resolution such as this, it would be better to wait until the discussion upstairs was finished. Then they would be more likely to know to what the expenses would amount.

CAPTAIN CRAIG (Down, E.)

said he did not understand the hon. Baronet who moved the Amendment to ask exact figures as to the expenses; he merely stated that no approximation as to the amount had been put before the Committee. The Under-Secretary had asked the Committee to pass the Resolution so that the Standing Committee upstairs might be enabled to go on with its work.

*THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member is really not discussing the Amendment. I allowed the hon. Baronet to discuss the Resolution in moving the Amendment, as indeed was his right, but I must, now that the Amendment has been put from the Chair, ask those Members of the Committee who wish to speak to confine themselves to the Amendment.

CAPTAIN CRAIG

said he would not transgress the ruling of the Chairman. He understood the Amendment to mean that, although this Resolution might possibly refer to the Children Bill, yet according to the wording it might refer to any Act and the present session.

*THE CHAIRMAN

Order, order. That has nothing to do with this Amendment.

SIR F. BANBURY

said he was sorry that the Under-Secretary had not satisfied him in any way. They were told also that the Home Office was to be given power to increase grants to any extent.

MR. HERBERT SAMUEL

The Treasury has control over all these grants, and they all have to be voted by Parliament.

SIR F. BANBURY

said that what he wanted to do was to keep the power in this House. It was all very well for the Under-Secretary to say that there were so many safeguards, but they all knew what that amounted to. The Estimates might come on at the end of August at four o'clock in the morning when there were only a few Members in the House. It would be foolish for the House of Commons to part with the power which it had at the present moment. He had no idea that the words which he proposed to leave out went so far as appeared from the hon. Gentleman's statement. When he asked the hon. Gentleman for some estimate of the expenses, he did not wish him to set it down exactly in pounds, shillings and pence, but he thought that the Home Office and the Treasury ought to have some idea of what the amount would be. They had none, and in these circumstances he would certainly divide the House. [NATIONALIST cries of "Oh!"] Hon. Members below the gangway said "Oh!" He knew that the Irish Party were always very anxious to spend other people's, money. He hoped he would have the support of hon. Members opposite who were pledged to economy.

MR. RAWLINSON (Cambridge University)

said that Resolutions of the kind they were now considering were either a farce or they were of some use to the House of Commons. He understood that they were the most important business of the House. Hon. Members on the Ministerial side were in the habit when in Opposition of objecting to blank cheques being given to the then Government. It was idle to say that the safeguards were sufficient. It was more and more the tendency of Governments, whether Liberal or Conservative, to propose that work which ought to be done by the House itself should be handed over to Departments of the State. They had now the power of saving whether these contributions should be allowed to be made or not. He had no doubt that the emigration of children was an excellent idea, but the Committee ought to be told approximately what the cost would be. They were asked to sanction the expenditure in advance, and there would be, he understood, words put in the Bill to limit the amount. He ventured to submit that the question was far greater than the mere amount of money necessary for the expenses of the Children Bill; and he thought that these formal Resolutions should be protested against by the private Members on both sides of the House. He took exception to them on two occasions when his own party was in power. At the same time he had to confess that

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Berridge, T. H. D. Cleland, J. W.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Bertram, Julius Clough, William
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Bethell, Sir J.H. (Essex, Romf'rd Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)
Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Collins, Sir Wm.J. (S. Pancras, W
Agnew, George William Black, Arthur W. Cooper, G. J.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Boland, John Corbett, C.H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd
Alden, Percy Boulton, A. C. F. Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)
Ambrose, Robert Bowerman, C. W. Crean, Eugene
Ashton, Thomas Gair Branch, James Crooks, William
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Brooke, Stopford Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)
Astbury, John Meir Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Davies, Timothy (Fulham)
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Brunner, Rt Hn Sir J. T (Cheshire Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Bryce, J. Annan Delany, William
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Burke, E. Haviland- Devlin, Joseph
Barker, John Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)
Barnes, G. N. Byles, William Pollard Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.)
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Carr-Gomm, H. W. Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.
Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Beale, W. P. Cawley, Sir Frederick Dillon, John
Beauchamp, E. Chance, Frederick William Donelan, Captain A.
Bellairs, Carlyon Channing, Sir Francis Allston Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)
Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R. Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)
Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo. Clancy, John Joseph Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

if he were in the position of the Under-Secretary he should do practically what the hon. Gentleman was doing, for it was an exceedingly convenient procedure.

MR. BOWLES (Lambeth, Norwood)

said he understood from the speech of the Under-Secretary that the only purposes under the Bill for which new expenditure would be required were first, for day industrial schools; secondly, a lump sum in aid of the emigration of children detained in industrial schools; and thirdly, for the maintenance of children who instead of being sent to prison would be sent to places of detention. All those were clearly expenses that would be incurred under the Act. Why then did the Government think it so necessary to take power there and then by that Resolution, not only for expenses under the Act but for any other contributions that might be made? What were those contributions? The Under-Secretary had told the Committee nothing about them. The only thing he told the Committee was the absolutely clear expenses under the Act. He hoped the Under-Secretary would reconsider the matter. Certainly if his hon. friend went to a division he should support him.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 264; Noes, 48. (Division List No. 82.)

Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall Lloyd-Georgo, Rt. Hon. David Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Elibank, Master of Lupton, Arnold Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro')
Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Reddy, M.
Erskine, David C. Macdonald, J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs) Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas Maclean, Donald Redmond, William (Clare)
Essex, R. W. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Rees. J. D.
Everett, R. Lacey MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Richards, T.F. (Wolverh'mpt'n)
Ferens, T. R. MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. Ridsdale, E. A.
Ffrench, Peter MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Findlay, Alexander M'Callum, John M. Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Flynn, James Christopher M'Hugh, Patrick A. Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Fuller, John Michael F. M'Kean, John Robertson, Sir G Scott (Bradf'rd
Furness, Sir Christopher M'Micking, Major G. Robson, Sir William Snowdon.
Gibb, James (Harrow) Mallet, Charles E. Rogers, F. E. Newman
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Manfield, Harry (Northants) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.) Markham, Arthur Basil Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Marnham, F. J. Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Griffith, Ellis J. Massie, J. Scott, A.H. (Ashton-under-Lyne
Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton Masterman, C. F. C. Seely, Colonel
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Meagher, Michael Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick,B.
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Halpin, J. Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) Sheehy, David
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis Menzies, Walter Silcoek, Thomas Ball
Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) Mond, A. Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Hart-Davies, T. Montagu, E. S. Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Hayden, John Patrick Mooney, J. J. Soares, Ernest J.
Hazel, Dr. A. E. Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Stanger, H. Y.
Hazleton, Richard Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Steadman, W. C.
Healy, Timothy Michael Morrell, Philip Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Hedges, A. Paget Morse, L. L. Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Muldoon, John Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Henry, Charles S. Murnaghan, George Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) Murphy, John (Kerry, East) Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Murphy, N. J. (Kilkenny, S.) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Higham, John Sharp Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) Toulmin, George
Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Myer, Horatio Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Hodge, John Napier, T. B. Verney, F. W.
Hogan, Michael Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r Vivian, Henry
Holland, Sir William Henry Nolan, Joseph Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Holt, Richard Durning Nussey, Thomas Willans Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Horniman, Emslie John Nuttall, Harry Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n)
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid. Wardle, George J.
Hutton, Alfred Eddison O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Waring, Walter
Idris, T. H. W. O'Brien, William (Cork) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Illingworth, Percy H. O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Wason, Rt. Hn. E (Clackmannan
Jackson, R. S. O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Jacoby, Sir James Alfred O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Waterlow, D. S.
Jenkins, J. O'Doherty, Philip Watt, Henry A.
Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) Weir, James Galloway
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) O'Grady, J. Whitbread, Howard
Jowett, F. W. O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N. White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Joyce, Michael O'Malley, William White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Kavanagh, Walter M. O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Whitehead, Rowland
Kearley, Hudson E. O'Shee, James John Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Kennedy, Vincent Paul Parker, James (Halifax) Wiles, Thomas
Kilbride, Denis Partington, Oswald Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Paulton, James Mellor Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Laidlaw, Robert Pearce, William (Limehouse) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) Perks, Robert William Winfrey, R.
Lambert, George Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Lamont, Norman Pickersgill, Edward Hare Young, Samuel
Lardner, James Carrige Rushe Pirie, Duncan V.
Layland-Barratt, Francis Power, Patrick Joseph TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich Pullar, Sir Robert Pease.
Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) Radford, G. H.
Lewis, John Herbert Raphael, Herbert H.
NOES.
Acland-Hood, Rt Hn. Sir Alex. F. Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. Balcarres, Lord
Anson, Sir William Reynell Ashley, W. W. Bowles, G. Stewart
Anstruther-Gray, Major Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Butcher, Samuel Henry
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Castlereagh, Viscount Kerry, Earl of Thornton, Percy M.
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Valentia, Viscount
Clive, Percy Archer Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S. Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S. Winterton, Earl
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Magnus, Sir Philip Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Craik, Sir Henry Moore, William Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Cross, Alexander Morpeth, Viscount Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Morrison-Bell, Captain Younger, George
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)
Faber, George Denison (York) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Fell, Arthur Randles, Sir John Scurrah Frederick Banbury and Mr.
Gordon, J. Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Lonsdale.
Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford Sloan, Thomas Henry
Heaton, John Henniker Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Main Question again proposed.

CAPTAIN CRAIG

moved to omit the words, "any Act of the present session," in order to insert the words, "the Bill now in Committee." He thought that any business man in any quarter of the House would support that Amendment, because the Motion made by the Under-Secretary as it stood on the Paper, applied to money that might be expended under the provisions of any Act relating to young persons, passed during the present session. He had gone to considerable trouble in searching through other public Bills in order to discover whether any of them would apply in this matter; and he could only narrow them down to the Infant Life Protection Bill, several Bills relating to health, and several charitable Bills. There were several charities dealt with in the public Bills. He had tried to find out whether any of these fell within the wording of the Resolution, and although the hon. Member might say that the terms of his Motion were the same as those which had been moved from year to year, he thought that in a House dominated by Radical principles he might have considered it fair to break through traditions, and frame his Motion in somewhat more business-like terms. If his Amendment were accepted, it simply meant that the Government would get what they wanted, and what they were asking for. They asked, with regard to the Children Bill, that the Committee should be empowered to go on with its work, but this Resolution referred to any Act of the present session, and not to the specific Bill under consideration. Although that might, to those hon. Members who took no interest whatever in these financial Resolu- tions, appear to be a trivial matter, he did not suppose that even the most sanguine Member on either side of the House expected to get more than one measure of such importance dealing with the protection of children and young persons through the House this session. That being so, surely it was not extravagant to ask the Government to nail down their Resolution to that specific Bill. The House would be most wrongly parting with its rights and privileges if it passed the Resolution without amendment. When he received his Order Paper he thought that perhaps a misprint had occurred, and that instead of "an" the word "any" had been printed, but on his arrival at the House he found that the copy handed to him in the Vote Office corresponded with that which he had received. He hoped the Government would see the importance of the subject, and if they were, as they had already stated, only following precedent, he asked them to take a bold step and create a precedent, by making the Resolution read so that anyone could understand it, and depriving it of the omnibus character which it now bore. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed— In line 4 to leave out from the first word, 'of' to the word 'to,' in line 4, and insert the words 'the Bill now in Committee,'"—(Captain Craig)—instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. HERBERT SAMUEL

said the hon. Member proposed to omit the words of the Resolution applying it to any Act of the present session, and to insert the words "the Bill now in Committee," but no expenditure could be made necessary by a Bill. The hon. Member's Amendment, if accepted, would make nonsense of the Resolution, because no expenditure could be incurred under a Bill, but could only be made necessary by an Act of Parliament. The Resolution, as it stood, was in accordance with invariable practice and precedent, and there was no reason for altering it.

SIR F. BANBURY

said he had never heard a lamer statement. The Under-Secretary had taken refuge in the fact that the Resolution was in the usual form, and therefore no change would be made—and he belonged to the Radical Party, who thought that the procedure of the House was slow and clogged the wheels of progress! A greater confession of the hollowness of Radical professions had never before been made. He thought the thanks of all the hon. Members on that side of the House were due to his hon. friend for his researches in this branch of procedure. The Under-Secretary said that no Bill could confer powers of expenditure, but his hon. friend could amend his Amendment and use the word "Act" instead of "Bill," and put in the title of the Bill and call it an enactment.

MR. HERBERT SAMUEL

The title may be altered.

SIR F. BANBURY

said that if they were going to fall back upon technical

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Berridge, T. H. D. Clancy, John Joseph
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Bertram, Julius Cleland, J. W.
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Bethell, Sir J.H. (Essex, Romf'rd Clough, William
Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)
Agnew, George William Black, Arthur W. Cooper, G. J.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Boland, John Corbett, C H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd
Alden, Percy Boulton, A. C. F. Cotton, Sir H. J. S.
Ambrose, Robert Bowerman, C. W. Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)
Ashton, Thomas Clair Branch, James Crean, Eugene
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Brooke, Stopford Crooks, William
Astbury, John Meir Brunner, J.F.L. (Lanes., Leigh) Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Brunner, Rt Hn Sir J.T. (Cheshire Davies, Timothy (Fulham)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Bryce, J. Annan Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Burke, E. Haviland- Delany, William
Barker, John. Burns, Rt. Hon. John Devlin, Joseph
Barnes, G. N. Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)
Barry, E. (Cork. S.) Byles, William Pollard Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.)
Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Carr-Gomm, H. W. Dickinson, W.H. (St. Pancras, N
Beale, W. P. Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Beauchamp, E. Cawley, Sir Frederick Dillon, John
Bellairs, Carlyon Chance, Frederick William Donelan, Captain A.
Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R. Channing, Sir Francis Allston Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness
Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo. Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Duncan, J. H. (York, Utley)

objections and precedents, of course many could be found ready, but, as the hon. Member for Preston said the other day, there were many foolish precedents for everything, and the Under-Secretary was falling back upon one of these old precedents. His hon. friend's Amendment must commend itself to everyone who was an economist and desired that the finance of the country should be administered in a proper manner. The passing of slipshod Resolutions of this sort was absolutely abhorrent, because they did not know what they were laying themselves open to by putting in the words "any Act of the present session." If his Amendment had been accepted there would not have been quite so much force in this one, but if this were rejected, money might be devoted to any Act dealing with children. He challenged any hon. Member on the other side of the House to get up and say that that statement was wrong. Under these circumstances he would have great pleasure in supporting his hon. and gallant friend if he went to a division as he hoped he would. It showed the weakness of the case of the Under-Secretary that there was not one single Member opposite who would get up and support the Government view.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 266; Noes, 56. (Division List No. 83.)

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Lewis, John Herbert Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro')
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Lupton, Arnold Reddy, M.
Elibank, Master of Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Maclean, Donald Redmond, William (Clare)
Erskine, David C. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Rees, J. D.
Esmonde, Sir Thomas MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Richards, T.F. (Wolverh'mpt'n
Essex, R. W. MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. Ridsdale, E. A.
Evans, Sir Samuel T. MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Everett, R. Lacey M'Callum, John M. Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Ferens, T. R. M'Hugh, Patrick A. Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Ffreneh, Peter M'Kean, John Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd
Findlay, Alexander M'Micking, Major G. Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Flynn, James Christopher Mallet, Charles E. Rogers, F. E. Newman
Fuller, John Michael F. Manfield, Harry (Northants) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Furness, Sir Christopher Markham, Arthur Basil Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Gibb, James (Harrow) Marnham, F. J. Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Masterman, C. F. G. Scott, A.H. (Ashton under Lyne
Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.) Meagher, Michael Seely, Colonel
Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N. Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co. Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Griffith, Ellis J. Menzies, Walter Sheehy, David
Gurdon, Rt Hn Sir W. Brampton Micklem, Nathaniel Shipman, Dr. John G.
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Mond, A. Silcock, Thomas Ball
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Montagu, E. S. Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Halpin, J. Mooney, J. J. Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Soares, Ernest J.
Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Stanger, H. Y.
Hart-Davies, T. Morrell, Philip Steadman, W. C.
Hazel, Dr. A. E. Morse, L. L. Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Healy, Timothy Michael Muldoon, John Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Hedges, A. Paget Murnaghan, George Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Henry, Charles S. Murphy, John (Kerry, East) Tennant, H.J. (Berwickshire)
Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) Murphy, N.J. (Kilkenny, S.) Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Higham, John Sharp Myer, Horatio Torrance, Sir A. M.
Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Napier, T. B. Toulmin, George
Hodge, John Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Hogan, Michael Nolan, Joseph Verney, F. W.
Holland, Sir William Henry Norton, Capt. Cecil William Vivian, Henry
Holt, Richard Durning Nussey, Thomas Willans Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Horniman, Emslie John Nuttall, Harry Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n
Hutton, Alfred Eddison O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wardle, George J.
Idris, T. H. W. O'Brien, William (Cork) Waring, Walter
Illingworth, Percy H. O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) Wason, Rt. Hn. E (Clackmannan
Jackson. R. S. O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Jacoby, Sir James Alfred O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Waterlow, D. S.
Jardine, Sir J. O'Doherty, Philip Watt, Henry A.
Jenkins, J. O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) Weir, James Galloway
Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea O'Malley, William Whitbread, Howard
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire O'Shaughnessy, P. J. White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Jowett, F. W. O'Shee, James John White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Joyce, Michael Parker, James (Halifax) Whitehead, Rowland
Kavanagh, Walter M. Partington, Oswald Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Kearley, Hudson E. Paulton, James Mellor Wiles, Thomas
Kennedy, Vincent Paul Pearce, William (Limehouse) Wilson, J.W. (Worcestersh. N.)
King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Perks, Robert William Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Laidlaw, Robert Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Winfrey, R.
Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Lambert, George Pickersgill, Edward Hare Young, Samuel
Lamont, Norman Pirie, Duncan V. Yoxall, James Henry
Layland-Barratt, Francis Power, Patrick Joseph
Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Lehmann, R. C. Pullar, Sir Robert Whiteley and Mr. Lonsdale.
Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich Radford, G. H.
Lever, W H. (Cheshire, Wirral) Raphael, Herbert H.
NOES.
Acland-Hood, Rt Hn. Sir Alex. F Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. Banbury, Sir Frederick George
Anson, Sir William Reynell Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)
Anstruther-Gray, Major Balcarres, Lord Bignold, Sir Arthur
Bowles, G. Stewart Heaton, John Henniker Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Butcher, Samuel Henry Kerry, Earl of Remnant, James Farquharson
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Castlereagh, Viscount Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham Sloan, Thomas Henry
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S) Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Lonsdale, John Brownlee Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Lowe, Sir Francis William Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Clive, Percy Archer M'Calmont, Colonel James Valentia, Viscount
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S. Magnus, Sir Philip Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
Craik, Sir Henry Moore, William Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Morpeth, Viscount Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Morrison-Bell, Captain Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Fell, Arthur Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) Younger, George
Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
Gordon, J. Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Guinness, Walter Edward Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Captain Craig and Mr.
Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd Randles, Sir John Scurrah Ashley.
Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Channing, Sir Francis Allston Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Griffith, Ellis J.
Adkins. W. Ryland D. Clancy, John Joseph Gurdon, Rt Hn. Sir W. Brampton
Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Cleland, J. W. Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.
Agnew, George William Clough, William Halpin, J.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis
Alden, Percy Collins, Sir Wm.J. (S. Pancras, W Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)
Ambrose, Robert Cooper, G. J. Hart-Davies, T.
Ashton, Thomas Gair Corbett, C.H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd Hazel, Dr. A. E.
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Healy, Timothy Michael
Astbury, John Meir Cox, Harold Hedges, A. Paget
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Henry, Charles S.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Crean, Eugene Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Crooks, William Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)
Barker, John Crosfield, A. H. Higham, John Sharp
Barnes, G. N. Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Hodge, John
Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Delany, William Hogan, Michael
Beale, W. P. Devlin, Joseph Holland, Sir William Henry
Beauchamp, E. Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Holt, Richard Durning
Bellairs, Carlyon Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.) Horniman, Emslie John
Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R. Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N. Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo. Dillon, John Hutton, Alfred Eddison
Berridge, T. H. D. Donelan, Captain A. Idris, T. H. W.
Bertram, Julius Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Illingworth, Percy H.
Gethell, Sir J.H. (Essex, Romf'rd Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Jackson, R. S.
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Jacoby, Sir James Alfred
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall Jardine, Sir J.
Black, Arthur W. Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Jenkins, J.
Boland, John Elibank, Master of Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea
Boulton, A. C. F. Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Jones, William (Carnarvonshire
Bowerman, C. W. Esmonde, Sir Thomas Jowett, F. W.
Branch, James Essex, R. W. Joyce, Michael
Brooke, Stopford Evans, Sir Samuel T. Kavanagh, Walter M.
Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh) Everett, R. Lacey Kearley, Hudson E.
Brunner, Rt Hn Sir J.T (Cheshire Ferens, T. R. Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Bryce, J. Annan Ffrench, Peter King, Alfred John (Knutsford)
Burke, E. Haviland- Findlay, Alexander Laidlaw, Robert
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Flynn, James Christopher Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)
Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles Fuller, John Michael F. Lambert, George
Byles, William Pollard Furness, Sir Christopher Lamont, Norman
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Gibb, James (Harrow) Lardner, James Carrige Rushe
Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Layland-Barratt, Francis
Cawley, Sir Frederick Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.) Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington
Chance, Frederick William Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Lehmann, R. C.

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 268; Noes, 52. (Division List No. 84.)

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Silcock, Thomas Ball
Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) O'Brien, William (Cork) Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Lewis, John Herbert O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Soares, Ernest J.
Lupton, Arnold O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Stanger, H. Y.
Macdonald, J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs O'Doherty, Philip Steadman, W. C.
Maclean, Donald O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. O'Malley, William Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Summerbell, T.
Mac Veagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) O'Shee, James John Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Parker, James (Halifax) Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
M'Callum, John M. Partington, Oswald Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
M'Hugh, Patrick A. Paulton, James Mellor Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
M'Kean, John Pearce, William (Limehouse) Torrance, Sir A. M.
M'Micking, Major G. Perks, Robert William Toulmin, George
Mallet, Charles E. Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Manfield, Harry (Northants) Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Verney, F. W.
Markham, Arthur Basil Pickersgill, Edward Hare Vivian, Henry
Marnham, F. J. Pirie, Duncan V. Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Massie, J. Power, Patrick Joseph Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Masterman, C. F. G. Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n)
Meagher, Michael Puller, Sir Robert Wardle, George J.
Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Radford, G. H. Waring, Walter
Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co. Raphael, Herbert H. Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Menzies, Walter Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Wason, Rt. Hn. E (Clackmannan
Micklem, Nathaniel Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro') Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Mond, A. Reddy, M. Waterlow, D. S.
Montagu, E. S. Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Watt, Henry A.
Mooney, J. J. Rees, J. D. Weir, James Galloway
Morgan, G, Hay (Cornwall) Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n Whitbread, Howard
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Ridsdale, E. A. White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Morrell, Philip Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Morse, L. L. Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Whitehead, Rowland
Muldoon, John Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Murnaghan, George Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd Wiles, Thomas
Murphy, John (Kerry, East) Robson, Sir William Snowdon Wilson, J.W. (Worcestersh., N.)
Murphy, N. J. (Kilkenny, S.) Rogers, F. E. Newman Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Winfrey, R.
Myer, Horatio Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Napier, T. B. Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Young, Samuel
Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r Scott, A.H. (Ashton-under-Lyne Yoxall, James Henry
Nolan, Joseph Seely, Colonel
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Nussey, Thomas Willans Sheehan, Daniel Daniel Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Nuttall, Harry Sheehy, David Pease.
O' Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid. Shipman, Dr. John G.
NOES.
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F. Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington
Anson, Sir William Reynell Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Anstruther-Gray, Major Fell, Arthur Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Ashley, W. W. Gordon. J. Remnant, James Farquharson
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Guinness, Walter Edward Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Balcarres, Lord Heaton, John Henniker Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Bignold, Sir Arthur Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Valentia, Viscount
Bowles, G. Stewart Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S. Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Butcher, Samuel Henry Lonsdale, John Brownlee Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Lowe, Sir Francis William Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Castlereagh, Viscount Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- M'Calmont, Colonel James Younger, George
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Magnus, Sir Philip
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Moore, William
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S. Morpeth, Viscount TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Craik, Sir Henry Morrison-Bell, Captain Frederick Banbury and
Cross, Alexander Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) Captain Craig.

Question put accordingly.

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)
Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Lewis, John Herbert
Agnew, George William Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
Ainsworth, John Stirling Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Lupton, Arnold
Alden, Percy Elibank, Master of Macdonald, J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs
Ambrose, Robert Esmonde, Sir Thomas Maclean, Donald
Ashton, Thomas Gair Essex, R. W. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Evans, Sir Samuel T. MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Astbury, John Meir Everett, R. Lacey MaeVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Ferens, T. R. MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Ferguson, R. C. Munro M'Callum, John M.
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Ffrench, Peter M'Hugh, Patrick A.
Barker, John Findlay, Alexander M'Kean, John
Barnard, E. B. Flynn, James Christopher M'Micking, Major G.
Barnes, G. N. Fuller, John Michael F. Mallet, Charles E.
Barry, E. (Cork. S.) Furness, Sir Christopher Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Gibb, James (Harrow) Markham, Arthur Basil
Beale, W. P. Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Marnham, F. J.
Beauchamp, E. Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.) Massie, J.
Bellairs, Carlyon Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Masterman, C. F. G.
Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R. Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Meagher, Michael
Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo. Griffith, Ellis J. Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
Berridge, T. H. D. Gurdon, Rt Hn. Sir W. Brampton Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.
Bertram, Julius Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Menzies, Walter
Bethell, Sir J.H. (Essex, Romf'rd Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Micklem, Nathaniel
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Halpin, J. Mond, A.
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis Montagu, E. S.
Black, Arthur W. Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) Mooney, J. J.
Boland, John Hart-Davies, T. Morgan. G. Hay (Cornwall)
Boulton, A. C. F. Hazel, Dr. A. E. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Bowerman, C. W. Hedges, A. Paget Morrell, Philip
Branch, James Henderson, J.M. (Aberdeen, W.) Morse, L. L.
Brooke, Stopford Henry, Charles S. Muldoon, John
Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh) Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) Murnaghan, George
Brunner, Rt Hn Sir J.T. (Cheshire Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Murphy, John (Kerry, East)
Bryce, J. Annan Higham, John Sharp Murphy, N. J. (Kilkenny, S.)
Burke, E. Haviland- Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hodge, John Myer, Horatio
Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles Hogan, Michael Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r
Bytes, William Pollard Holland, Sir William Henry Nolan, Joseph
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Holt, Richard Durning Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight Horniman, Emslie John Nussey, Thomas Willans
Cawley, Sir Frederick Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Nuttall, Harry
Chance, Frederick William Hutton, Alfred Eddison O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid.
Channing, Sir Francis Allston Idris, T. H. W. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Illingworth, Percy H. O'Brien, William (Cork)
Clancy, John Joseph Jackson, R. S. O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)
Cleland, J. W. Jacoby, Sir James Alfred O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Clough, William Jardine, Sir J. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Jenkins, J. O'Doherty, Philip
Cooper, G. J. Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)
Corbett, C.H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Jowett, F. W. O'Malley, William
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth Joyce, Michael O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Crean, Eugene Kavanagh, Walter M. O'Shee, James John
Crooks, William Kearley, Hudson E. Parker, James (Halifax)
Crosfield, A. H. Kennedy, Vincent Paul Partington, Oswald
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Paulton, James Mellor
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Laidlaw, Robert Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Delany, William Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) Perks, Robert William
Devlin, Joseph Lambert, George Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Lamont, Norman Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.) Lardner, James Carrige Rushe Pirie, Duncan V.
Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N. Layland-Barratt, Francis Power, Patrick Joseph
Dillon, John Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)
Donelan, Captain A. Lehmann, R. C. Pullar, Sir Robert

The Committee, divided:—Ayes, 266; Noes, 35. (Division List No. 85.)

Radford, G. H. Shipman, Dr. John G. Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Raphael, Herbert H. Silcock, Thomas Ball Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan
Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Waterlow, D. S.
Reddy, M. Soares, Ernest J. Watt, Henry A.
Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Stanger, H. Y. Weir, James Galloway
Rees, J. D. Steadman, W. C. Whitbread, Howard
Remnant, James Farquharson Stewart, Halley (Greenock) White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n Straus, B. S. (Mile End) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Ridsdale, E. A. Summerbell, T. Whitehead, Rowland
Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Wiles, Thomas
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.
Robertson, Sir G Scott (Bradf'rd Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Robson, Sir William Snowdon Torrance, Sir A. M. Winfrey, R.
Rogers, F. E. Newman Toulmin, George Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Verney, F. W. Young, Samuel
Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Vivian, Henry Yoxall, James Henry
Scott, A.H. (Ashton under Lyne Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Seely, Colonel Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Sheehan, Daniel Daniel Wardle, George J. Pease.
Sheehy, David Waring, Walter
NOES.
Ashley, W. W. Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Gordon, J. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Balearres, Lord Guinness, Walter Edward Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Hamilton, Marquess of Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Bignold, Sir Arthur Heaton, John Henniker Sloan, Thomas Henry
Bowles, G. Stewart Kimber, Sir Henry Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.
Castlereagh, Viscount Lowe, Sir Francis William Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- M'Calmont, Colonel James Younger, George
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S. Magnus, Sir Philip
Craik, Sir Henry Moore, William TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Cross, Alexander Morpeth, Viscount Frederick Banbury and Cap-
Fell, Arthur Morrison-Bell, Captain tain Craig.

Resolved, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any Expenses that may be incurred and of any contributions that may be made under the provisions of any Act of the present session to consolidate and amend the Law relating to the Protection of Children and Young Persons."

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.