§ MR. MOONEY (Newry)I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether in view of the action now pending as to the right of the London and North Western Railway Company to use the Carlisle Pier, Kingstown, he will, until a decision has been given, restrict the use of Kingstown Harbour by the London and North Western Railway Company to the Victoria Wharf; whether he is aware that the London and North-Western Railway Company have already used this wharf for berthing their steamers with perfect safety and convenience; and whether he is aware that the Victoria Wharf has been used for a considerable time past by the line of steamers plying between Kingstown and the Isle of Man, to whom permission was refused to use the Carlisle Pier.
§ MR. RUNCIMANI understand that the Victoria Wharf is connected with the railway only by a single-line siding, inconveniently situated to the main line. There is no platform accommodation at the wharf, nor adequate means 954 of shelter for passengers; and no proper facilities for transferring passengers and mails between trains and steamers. It is the case that the London and North Western Railway Company have been obliged to use this wharf recently, but only as a lie-by berth when owing to the deliberate obstruction of the City of Dublin Steam Packet Company no berth at Carlisle Pier was available. The weather fortunately has been favourable, but in certain conditions the use of the wharf even for this purpose might be attended by grave risk as well as inconvenience. In some conditions of weather it is difficult and dangerous to approach the wharf; in other conditions it is unsafe to lie at it, and in vet other conditions it is difficult, if not impossible, to get away from it. The statements contained in the last part of the hon. Member's question do not accurately represent the facts. Formerly, excursion steamers, belonging to the Isle of Man Company, used occasionally to visit the wharf, but this was found to be so inconvenient that the Company applied for permission to use the Carlisle Pier. When this application was refused they ceased to use the port at all and their steamers now always run to the North Wall.
§ MR. PATRICK O'BRIENasked why, if approach to the Victoria Wharf was so risky, the late Queen Victoria and the King were able to get ashore there on their visits to Ireland?
§ MR. RUNCIMANsaid these were isolated cases of the use of the wharf under favourable conditions. His answer referred to the daily use.
§ MR. CLANCY (Dublin County, N.)I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, whether, before the Government granted the London and North Western Railway Company permission to use the Government harbour at Kingstown for its passenger steamers at a nominal charge, they were aware that the reason why Parliament in 1902 decided that the company should pay the charges now fixed for all steamers alike, was that it had been proved before Committees of the two Houses, that the company had reduced to little or nothing the register 955 tonnage of its vessels by using for that purpose the peculiar measurement rules then in force; whether they were aware that largely to accommodate this company the Dublin Harbour authority had expended large sums of money in dock works; and, if the Government were not aware of those facts, if they will now cancel the arrangement by which the free use of Kingstown Harbour is given to the company at the expense of the revenues of the Port of Dublin.
§ MR. RUNCIMANThe Answer to the first two Questions is in the negative. With regard to the last Question I see no reason for cancelling the permission given to the London and North Western Railway Company, which has been granted in the interests of the public.
§ MR. CLANCYI beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, with reference to the permission given to the London and North Western Railway Company to use the Government harbour at Kingstown for their passenger steamers at a nominal charge, whether he is aware that in 1902 Parliament, by the Dublin Port and Docks Board Act of that year, decided that the company should in future pay the charge on its steamers now fixed by the Dublin Harbour authority; whether the Government, by now allowing the company to use Kingstown Harbour practically free of charge, are enabling it to evade compliance with the decision of Parliament; and, if so, whether there is any precedent for such, action on the part of the Government.
§ MR. RUNCIMANThe Act of 1902 does not refer specifically to the dues, payable by the passenger steamers of the London and North-Western Railway Company. In any case the Act only affects steamers that enter the jurisdiction of the Dublin Port and Docks Board. Section 70 of the Act provides that nothing in the Act shall render it obligatory on the Commissioners of Kingstown Harbour to levy any rates or, dues on, amongst other classes, vessels carrying His Majesty's mails, and vessels engaged exclusively in passenger traffic The London and North Western Railway steamers now running between Kingstown and Holyhead come under both of these 956 categories. The London and North Western Railway Company enjoyed the same facilities at Kingstown Harbour as have lately been given to them in respect of the landing and embarking of passengers at the Carlisle Pier, during the years 1859, 1860, and part of 1861. The dues then paid were 5s. per trip per steamer. In those years the Company ran a daily service of express steamers between the Carlisle Pier and Holyhead.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLI beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, if he will explain why the London and North Western Railway Company has been given permission to use Carlisle Pier, Kingstown, at a nominal charge for their passenger steamers; and what is the estimated yearly gain to the company by reason of this permission, which involves a loss of revenue to the harbour authority.
§ MR. RUNCIMANAs I have already informed the hon. Member for North Dublin, the permission was given to the London and North Western Railway Company in the interests of the travelling public. I have no information as regards the last part of the hon. Member's Question.
§ MR. CLANCYI beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the nominal charge of 5s. per trip for the use of the Carlisle Pier, Kingstown, by the steamers of the London and North Western Railway Company is the sole consideration for such use; and, if not, what other consideration has been given or promised by the company.
§ MR. RUNCIMANThe dues charged for the use of the pier and certain other expenses which will be incurred by the Commissioners of Kingstown Harbour are the only consideration paid by the London and North Western Railway Company.
§ MR. CLANCYI beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, with reference to the permission given to the London and North Western Railway Company to use Carlisle Pier, Kingstown, for their passenger steamers at a merely nominal charge, whether he is aware that the reason given by Lord Stalbridge, chairman of the company, for seeking such 957 permission was to evade the payment of the dues fixed by the Dublin Port and Docks Board for all such steamers equally; whether the gain to the company by the concession made by the Treasury will amount to several thousands of pounds a year; and, if so, whether there is any precedent for Government action involving the deprivation of a harbour authority of revenue for the benefit of a railway or other company.
§ MR. RUNCIMANI have no information as to the reasons which influenced the London and. North Western Railway Company to transfer part of their passenger service to Kingstown, or as to the saving which is effected by the transfer; but I understand that legal proceedings are pending between the Dublin Port and Docks Board and the company with regard to the rates charged at Dublin. As regards the latter part of the Question I cannot say whether any similar case has occurred elsewhere; but I may remind the lion. Member that special provisions were inserted in the Dublin Port and Docks Act of 1902, with the assent of the Dublin Port and Docks Board, concerning the dues chargeable on passenger vessels at Kingstown.
§ MR. JOHN REDMONDI beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will cause to be laid upon the Table of the House forthwith all correspondence that has passed on the subject of the use of the Carlisle Pier, Kingstown, by vessels other than the mail steamers, between the Treasury and the Commissioners of Public Works, the Commissioners of Kingstown Harbour, the London and North Western Railway Company, the City of Dublin Steam Packet Company, and any other steamboat company, or any individual or individuals, or Government Department, between 1st January, 1907, and the present date; [and whether he will now publish all the correspondence and papers dealing with the agreement come to in 1898, when it was agreed by the Treasury to pay £6,500 per annum for the acceleration of the day mail service,]and the correspondence relating to the altered arrangements now made between the Treasury or the Post Office and the London and North Western Company.
§ MR. RUNCIMANAs I have already stated I am considering what Papers ca be laid.