SMALL LANDHOLDERS (SCOTLAND) [SALARIES].

HC Deb 27 May 1907 vol 174 cc1339-76

Resolution reported: "That, for carrying out the provisions of any Act of the present session to encourage the formation of Small Agricultural Holdings in Scotland, it is expedient to authorise—(i.) the payment, out of the Consolidated Fund, of the salaries of the chairman and of each of the other members of the Land Court; (ii.) the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of—(a) the salaries and remuneration of the Agricultural Commissioners and other persons appointed or employed by them and by the Land Court, and the expenses incurred by the Land Court and the Agricultural Commissioners in the execution of their duties; (b) an annual sum not exceeding £85,000 for the use of the Agricultural Commissioners; (c) compensation in certain cases to members and officers of the Crofters Commission."

Resolution read a second time.

MR. RAWLINSON (Cambridge University)

moved an Amendment to limit the expenses in respect of the Agricultural Commissioners to £3,000 a year. He said that under Section 3 of the Bill a Land Court was proposed to be set up and under Section 4 a tribunal was created called the Agricultural Commission for Scotland. The object of his Amendment was not in any way to deal with the merits of the Bill; indeed, for the purpose of his Amendment, the Bill might be assumed to be a highly desirable measure, although he did not say for one moment that that was his view, nor that it was the view of any; Scottish landlord or tenant. On Friday they had been asked to draw three blank cheques for the use of the Secretary for Scotland, with possibly the assent of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That was thoroughly unsound finance, and Members of that House, who were supposed to be looking after the expenditure of the country, had no right to pass any orders of such a nature, no matter how desirable they might be. Under the Bill no limit was-put upon the expenses of the Land Court at all. The Secretary for Scotland was questioned very closely on Friday as to what his estimate was of the expenditure likely to be incurred under that section of the Bill. The hon. Member for Leith Burghs made out the estimated expenditure to be a large sum; he (Mr. Rawlinson) was not concerned whether that was right or wrong, but the Secretary for Scotland entirely dissented from the hon. Member's figures and said, in reply to a request for his own, that he had something better than an estimate, he had a figure to guide him which was based on experience, and that amount was £5,000. That figure was challenged by a large number of Members, but he was quite prepared to accept it, and he had, therefore, put upon the Paper an Amendment restricting the expenses under that sub-section of the Bill to £6,000 a year, thus leaving a substantial margin beyond the figure quoted by the Secretary for Scotland. Then there was the question of the expenses of the Agricultural Commissioners. There were the salaries of the three Commissioners and the expenses the Commission might incur. In the case of the Land Court the salaries of the Judges were estimated at a sum amounting to £0,000 a year, but in the case of the Agricultural Commissioners there was no estimate at all as to the sum they were to receive. The Secretary for Scotland had been repeatedly asked what was the estimated amount for the remuneration of those three gentlemen, but he was either unable or unwilling to reply. In order, therefore, to obtain information upon this point he had put down in his Amendment that those salaries should be limited to £3,000 a year. If that was not a proper figure he would be prepared to accept any figure the-Secretary of Scotland might name, but he objected to power being given to the right hon. Gentleman to appoint those officials at a cost to be borne by public funds without any control from that House over their remuneration. The right hon. Gentleman on Friday had used words to the effect, "Oh, the House can safely give power to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because these salaries will come up on the Estimates on some other occasion." He protested most strongly against that answer. If the House passed the Financial Resolution, and gave the Secretary for Scotland power to appoint the three Commissioners at such salaries as the right hon. Gentleman and the Chancellor of the Exchequer thought right, the House would have practically no control over the salaries. It was one thing for the House to resolve that three people should be appointed at such and such a salary—whatever the figure might be—and another thing to give authority to certain members of the Government to make the appointments, and not to take the trouble to restrict the remuneration. It should be remembered also that there was unlimited power given as to the amount of the expenses of the Commission itself. That was estimated by the hon. Member for the Leith Burghs at £100,000, an estimate which was rejected by the Secretary for Scotland. Some limit should be put on the amount. In protesting against the course which the Government were now taking, he and his friends were following the excellent precedent set by many of those who now sat on the Treasury Bench when discussing the Aliens Bill. When he found arguments marked by sound sense emanating even from hon. Members on the other side of the House he was perfectly ready to adopt them. In the case of the Aliens Bill various Members of the then Opposition argued that an estimate of the cost should be given, and the late Government did give an estimate on the authority of the Home Secretary at the time. It might or might not have been a correct one, but it was criticised. In view of the position taken up on the Aliens Bill, it was rather the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to assist the Opposition than to assist the right hon. Gentleman who sat beside him on that present occasion. He submitted the there was a principle involved in the Resolution against which the House ought to protest. It was a question involving the position of the Chancellor of the Exchequer at every turn. On Friday the Secretary for Scotland, at the end of his interesting speech, naÏvely said that he did not know that he had given any information except what appeared in the Bill at the present time. It was a perfectly frank admission, and it was about correct. The Chancellor of the Exchequer came in, and, after he had been in the House for a. short time, moved the closure.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. Asquith,) Fifeshire, E.

Half an hour.

MR. RAWLINSON

said that if the House passed the Resolution as it stood it would create a thoroughly bad precedent. There ought to be some limit to the cost. The new bodies to be constituted under the Bill were only to have the administration of £65,000, and as large sums had been indicated by hon. Members on both sides of the House as the possible cost, it was desirable as a matter of principle that some limit should be put on the expenditure which would be involved in the working of the measure. He begged to move.

SIR F. BANBURY (City of London),

in seconding the Amendment, said he failed to understand why the Government did not accept it. The Bill provided that the chairman of the Land Court should receive a salary not exceeding £2,000 a year, and that each of the other members should receive a salary not exceeding £1,000 a year. In the case of the Agricultural Commissioners the Bill mentioned no salary. If it was possible to fix the salary for the members of the Land Court, he failed to see why it should not be done also in the case of the Agricultural Commissioners. The work of the Land Court would be far more important than that of the Agricultural Commissioners, and if £1,000 a year was sufficient for a member of that Court, why should it not be sufficient for a commissioner? His hon. and learned friend had referred to speeches which were delivered some two years ago in Opposition by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen now on the Treasury Bench; and he understood the Prime Minister to say in an interruption, "Your Government did the same thing." He was glad to hear that the example of the late Government was going to be followed by the present Government. If he could believe that the Prime Minister was going to follow the example of the late Government he could prophesy for the right hon. Gentleman an easy time, but up to the present he had not done that. He himself was in the House during the debates on the Aliens Bill, and a question exactly similar to that now before the House came up. He was very much struck by the arguments used then by hon. Gentlemen who now occupied places in the Government. He admitted that he voted with his Party, but he was not quite sure that his Party were right on that occasion. He would point out that the circumstances were very different on the two occasions. The sum of money to be applied to the purposes of this measure was very much larger than the amount applied under the Aliens Act. It was to be devoted to matters involving a greater amount of detail, and the administrative charges would, therefore, be larger. A fortiori it was right that the Resolution should say what sum of money should be spent on the salaries of the Agricultural Commissioners. He asked the Prime Minister whether he remembered the claims of his Party that the financial control of the House of Commons should be reestablished. On that side of the House they were endeavouring to give the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity of fulfilling his electoral pledges. They were asking for nothing unreasonable, but only that the Secretary for Scotland should tell the House what salaries he proposed to give to the gentlemen whom he appointed as Agricultural Commissioners.

Amendment proposed— In Paragraph 2 (a), line 7, after the word Commissioners,' to insert the words 'not exceeding three thousand pounds."' (Mr. Rawlinson.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SINCLAIR,) Forfarshire

said that this was the report of a Resolution adopted by the Committee of the Whole House on Friday last. It was merely an enabling resolution to empower the Committee upstairs to discuss the clauses relating to the amount of money to be spent on, and by, the Agricultural Commissioners. The House did not part with its control over expenditure when the Resolution went upstairs. The Bill would have to pass through two stages in the House before it was sent up to another place. The salaries of the members of the Land Court, which was a judicial body, were put on the Consolidated Fund, and for that reason they were not in the same position as the salaries of the Agricultural Commissioners, who would be simply a department of the Civil Service, whose salaries would be fixed in consultation with the Treasury. Therefore, those salaries would come under the review of the House on the Estimates. In adopting that course the Government were simply following the course pursued by all Governments.

COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY (Shropshire, Newport)

understood that the Amendment was in the direction of defining what was to be the general expenditure under the Bill. He had been much struck by the proposed financial arrangements. He did not believe that the machinery of the Bill could be carried out at a less expense than £10,000 per annum, and that was to administer an expenditure of £100,000. He thought that that was extravagant in the highest degree and a bad precedent to set up. The salaries for the members of the Land Court were £2,000 for the chairman and £4,000 for the other members. But that was not all—

*MR. SPEAKER

said that the Amendment did not refer to the Land Court at all, but to the Agricultural Commissioners.

COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY

said that what he wanted to know was, what were the actual salaries to be paid to the Agricultural Commissioners.

*MR. SPEAKER

said that the right hon. Gentleman had not followed the Amendment moved by the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge University.

MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON (Lanarkshire, N. W.)

thought that before the House passed the Resolution they should understand what the position really was. They were being asked to vote a certain sum of money for the salaries of the three gentlemen who were to constitute the Agricultural Commission. The Secretary for Scotland had said that these Commissioners were to be ordinary civil servants, and that the ordinary Civil Service procedure would be followed in regard to them. But the right hon. Gentleman had not pointed out that these Commissioners were not ordinary civil servants; they were to be appointed for an extraordinary purpose—to administer what was nothing short of a revolution in the land system of Scotland. What the people of Scotland wanted was to obtain from the right hon. Gentleman

some estimate of the total cost of the Bill and what the salaries of the Agricultural Commissioners were to be. Those Agricultural Commissioners were to be responsible for preparing and creating small holdings, to take over the powers and duties of the Congested Districts Board, to have some of the powers of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, and so on. They could not expect any man to do those duties for £1,000 a year. He supported the Amendment.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 57; Noes, 256. (Division List No. 177.)

AYES.
Acland-Hood, Rt Hn. Sir Alex. F.	Faber, Capt, W. V. (Hants, W.)	Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Fell, Arthur	Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Anstruther-Gray, Major	Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey	Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Ashley, W. W.	Fletcher, J. S.	Remnant, James Farquharson
Balcarres, Lord	Harrison-Broadley, H. B.	Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)	Hervey, F. W. F (Bury S. Edm'ds)	Salter, Arthur Clavell
Beckett, Hon. Gervase	Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)	Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Bignold, Sir Arthur	Hills, J. W.	Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)
Bowles, G. Stewart	Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.	Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Bridgeman, W. Clive	Kimber, Sir Henry	Starkey, John R.
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Lambton, Hon. Frederick W m.	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.	Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)	Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Carlile, E. Hildred	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.)	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebons, E.)	Lonsdale, John Brownlee	Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A(Wore)	Lowe, Sir Francis William	Younger, George
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birmingh'm)	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)	Marks, H. H. (Kent)	Sir Frederick Banbury and
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)	Mason, James F. (Windsor)	Mr. Mitchell-Thomson.
Craik, Sir Henry	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Morpeth, Viscount
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)	Billson, Alfred	Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)
Acland, Francis Dyke	Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Cobbold, Felix Thornley
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Black, Arthur W.	Collins, Sir Wm. J (S. Pancras, W.)
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)	Boland, John	Cooper, G. J.
Ambrose, Robert	Bottomley, Horatio	Corbett, C. H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry	Boulton, A. C. F.	Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.
Astbury, John Meir	Bowerman, C. W.	Cotton, Sir H. J. S.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Branch, James	Cremer, William Randal
Baxar, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)	Brooke, Stopford	Crooks, William
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)	Crosfield, A. H.
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Bryce, J. Annan	Dalziel, James Henry
Barker, John	Burke, E. Haviland	Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)
Barlow, John Emmott (Som'rs't)	Burns, Rt. Hon. John	Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas	Davies, Timothy (Fulham)
Barnard, E. B.	Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles	Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)
Barnes, G. N.	Byles, William Pollard	Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)
Beauchamp, E.	Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Dickinson, W. H (St. Pancras, N.)
Beck, A. Cecil	Carr-Gomm, H. W.	Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.
Bellairs, Carlyon	Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight	Dilke, Rt.Hon. Sir Charles
Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R.	Channing, Sir Francis Allston	Dobson, Thomas W.
Berridge, T. H. D.	Cheetham, John Frederick	Duckworth, James
Bertram, Julius	Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.	Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)
Bethell, Sir J. H (Essex, Romf'rd)	Cleland, J. W.	Edwards, Frank (Radnor)
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)	Clough, William	Elibank, Master of
Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward	Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David	Robinson, S.
Essex, R. W.	Lough, Thomas	Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Evans, Samuel T.	Lundon, W.	Rogers, F. E. Newman
Everett, R. Lacey	Lupton, Arnold	Rose, Charles Day
Fenwick, Charles	Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Rowlands, J.
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter	Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs)	Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Mackarness, Frederic C.	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Fullerton, Hugh	Maclean, Donald	Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Furness, Sir Christopher	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)
Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S.)	MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)	Sears, J. E.
Gibb, James (Harrow)	M'Callum, John M.	Seaverns, J. H.
Gilhooly, James	M'Crae, George	Shackleton, David James
Ginnell, L.	M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald	Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)
Gooch, George Peabody	Maddison, Frederick	Sherwell, Arthur James
Grant, Corrie	Mallet, Charles E.	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Greenwood, Hamar (York)	Marnham, F. J.	Spicer, Sir Albert
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	Masterman, C. F. G.	Stanger, H. Y.
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Micklem, Nathaniel	Steadman, W. C.
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.	Molteno, Percy Alport	Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Halpin, J.	Mond, A.	Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis	Mooney, J. J.	Strachey, Sir Edward
Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)	Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Harmsworth, R. L (Caithn'ss-sh.	Morrell, Philip	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Hart-Davies, T.	Murray, James	Sutherland, J. E.
Haworth, Arthur A.	Myer, Horatio	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Hazel, Dr. A. E.	Nicholls, George	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Helme, Norval Watson	Nicholson, Charles N (Doncast'r)	Thompson, J. W. H (Somerset, E)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Nolan, Joseph	Thorne, William
Henry, Charles S.	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Tillett, Louis John
Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)	Nussey, Thomas Willans	Torrance, Sir A. M.
Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)	Nut-tall, Harry	Toulmin, George
Higham, John Sharp	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)	Verney, F. W.
Hobart, Sir Robert	O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)	Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Hobhouse, Charles E. H.	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Holland, Sir William Henry	O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)	Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.	O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.	Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n)
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey	O'Malley, William	Wardle, George J.
Idris, T. H. W.	Parker, James (Halifax)	Waring, Walter
Illingworth, Percy H.	Partington, Oswald	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Jacoby, Sir James Alfred	Paul, Herbert	Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Jardine, Sir J.	Pearce, William (Limehouse)	Waterlow, D. S.
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke	Watt, Henry A.
Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)	Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)	Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Pickersgill, Edward Hare	Weir, James Galloway
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire	Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)	Whitbread, Howard
Jowett, F. W.	Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)	White, George (Norfolk)
Kearley, Hudson E.	Radford, G. H.	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Kekewich, Sir George	Raphael, Herbert H.	Whitehead, Rowland
Kilbride, Denis	Rea, Russell (Gloucester)	Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
King, Alfred John (Knutsford)	Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro')	Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n
Laidlaw, Robert	Redmond, John E. (Waterford)	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)	Rees, J. D.	Wills, Arthur Walters
Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)	Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n)	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Lamont, Norman	Richardson, A.	Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)	Rickett, J. Compton	Winfrey, R.
Layland-Barrett, Francis	Ridsdale, E. A.	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.)	Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Lehmann, R. C.	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)	Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)	Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)	Pease.
Levy, Maurice	Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd
Lewis, John Herbert	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Mr. RAWLINSON

said the Amendment he now proposed to move had reference to the expenses of the Land Court. That Court, as the House was aware, was dealt with in two clauses; the first was concerned with the salaries of the judges, amounting to £6,000a year. The second clause had reference to the salaries and expenses of the other officials and the other expenses of the Land Court, and did not propose any limitation. The Amendment he proposed placed upon those expenses a limit of £6,000 a year. He had nothing upon which to base that estimate except the statements made by the Secretary for Scotland in regard to the cost of the Crofters Commission. If he was told that that was not the correct figure, as he had said in the case of the last Amendment, he would be perfectly prepared to accept any reasonable sum. The Secretary for Scotland seemed to indicate that the sum they ought to keep in their minds was some £4,500 or £5,000 as the extra cost of the Land Court, and for that reason he had fixed £6,000 in order to allow a small margin. The Government ought to have some sort of idea of the expenditure of the suggested Land Court, and the House ought not to give a blank cheque to the right hon. Gentleman to create any number of Commissioners that he thought proper.

SIR HENEY CRAIK (Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities),

in seconding the Amendment, wished to point out one or two considerations which should serve to guide them as to the expenditure which should be incurred. He thought that the moment the Secretary for Scotland looked at the figures which he wished to bring forward he would sec that his estimate of last Friday was inadequate. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the cost of the Crofters Commission as a guide. That body dealt with a very small portion of Scotland, and therefore with but a very small fragment of the question with which the Land Court would have to deal. The questions entrusted to the Crofters Commission did not call for such prolonged consideration as would be necessary in regard to cases brought before the Land Court. What precedent could they get to guide them to some extent as to the total cost of the Land Court? The Land Court in Scotland would do work in about the same area as the Land Commission in Ireland, and the latter cost £146,000 a year. Was there any reason why they should distinguish between the Scottish Land Court and the Irish Commissioners and come to the conclusion that what cost £146,000 a year in Ireland was to be carried out for £6,000 or £7,000 in Scotland? If there was any reason for doing so, surely the right hon. Gentleman might state it to the House. The expenditure now proposed was, in his judgment, totally inadequate.

Amendment proposed— In paragraph 2 (a), line 10, at the end, to insert the words, 'Provided that the expense in connection with the Land Court shall not exceed £6,000 in any one year, and.'" (Mr. Rawlinson.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. SINCLAIR

said he was sure that hon. Gentlemen opposite would not accuse him of any desire to withhold information in regard to any part of the Bill, but he earnestly hoped that when they reconsidered the very unprecedented proposition which they were making they would not insist on dividing the House upon it. The hon. Members who moved and seconded had alluded to an estimate which he was said to have made in debate; but he had made no estimate whatever of the probable expenditure upon the Land Court, although he did mention in the course of debate what the Crofters Commission had cost annually, and added that an estimate founded upon that would be more likely to be correct than any founded on the expenditure of the Irish Land Commission. At present, however, any estimate on the subject was likely to be incorrect, because they had not defined the powers and duties of the body to be set up. It would therefore at that stage be most improper to attempt to define the cost, and it would be a waste of the time of the House to endeavour to do so. It was impossible to define the cost of any system of administration until one had defined the way in which that administration was to be carried out. All the expenses of the Land Court, except those placed upon the Consolidated Fund, would come on the Votes, and be submitted annually to Parliament, and there would be the strictest financial control that the rules of Parliament allowed. He asked the House, therefore, to consider whether it was necessary to continue the discussion on this trivial point.

MR. WALTER LONG (Dublin, S.)

said the right hon. Gentleman had referred to the fact that the Bill was to be considered upstairs, and had expressed the opinion that the procedure adopted by his hon. friend in moving the Amendment was quite unusual. It was not the procedure but the character of the Bill that was unusual. The right hon. Gentleman, when making that remark, had quite forgotten that the discussion upstairs would be a discussion of which neither those interested nor the public would have any record or know what was being done. With regard to the Bill itself, the right hon. Gentleman had made statements which were simply amazing. He had said it was impossible to make any estimate, because until the Bill had been discussed upstairs the functions of the proposed body were undefined. Surely the Government had arrived at some idea as to what the functions of that body would be, and in that case they must have some idea of what expense would be involved. The right hon. Gentleman objected to what he termed narrowing down the issues in this manner, but his hon. friend who moved the Amendment would adopt any reasonable suggestion the Government might make. As the matter at present stood, they were going to discuss the Bill in Committee without knowing anything of the Government's intentions with regard to it, and they would debate these questions under conditions which would not permit of those in the country who were interested — and they were many, and they were not all interested in the manner the Government thought they were—knowing what took place. That there was a very general interest in the question was shown by the fact that, although he was not a Scottish Member, as a member of the Committee he had received numerous letters showing a very lively interest in the Bill. It was simply amazing that the Government should come forward with revolutionary proposals of this kind, and then say they could not form any estimate of what the cost would be. It would only add enormously to the difficulties under which they were to discuss the Bill in Committee upstairs, and he did not think the Government were taking the right steps to facilitate the passage of their Bill.

SIR F. BANBURY

said the Secretary for Scotland in his reply to the Amendment had said, first, that the expense would be discussed in Committee of Supply, and, secondly, that it was quite unusual for a Member of the House to move an Amendment of the kind now proposed. With regard to the latter statement, he might point out that the supporters of the Government in 1904 made an exactly similar proposal, as the President of the Board of Trade moved to add the words "in any one year not to exceed £5,000;" whilst in 1905the hon. Member for Halifax moved a precisely similar Amendment. With regard to the right hon. Gentleman's first answer, he might say that there would be no Committee of Supply until May or June, 1908, and in the meantime the Government were asking the House to vote money for an expenditure as to the extent of which they had no idea. He believed he was right in saying that unless that Resolution was passed no money could be spent under the Bill. If by its being discussed upstairs the right hon. Gentleman meant that he was going to inform the Committee what money was to be spent, why could he not inform the House now? If the right hon. Gentleman knew what was going to be spent, there was no reason for his silence. The veal truth was that the right hon. Gentleman could not accept the Amendment because he had not the vaguest idea of what amount he was going to spend.

*MR. YOUNGER (Ayr Burghs)

expressed the opinion that the right hon. Gentleman was himself largely responsible for the Amendment, because he had intimated that the expenditure upon the Land Court would be analogous to the expenditure on the administration of the Crofters Commission. Anything more ludicrous it was impossible to conceive. The expenditure of the Croftera Commission in its earlier years varied between £8,800 and £9,900 a year, and the variety and complexity of the duties the Land Court would have to perform were not comparable to the comparatively restricted work of the Crofters Commission. It almost convinced him that those behind this Bill knew very little about the subject. A short time ago they were told at Edinburgh that the Government had most carefully considered every detail connected with the Bill. If that was the case it was surely possible for the right hon. Gentleman, without binding himself to any specific estimate, to give the House some idea of what he thought would be the cost of carrying out the Bill. The hon. Member for Leith Burghs put it at £20,000 a year, but they did not know if that was so, and he himself would put it at a higher figure. The present was the only opportunity they would have of showing the people of Scotland that they would have to pay for something they did not want. He would vote for the Amendment as a protest against the failure to give the information asked for.

MR. J. F. MASON (Windsor)

said the expense of the machinery of the Bill seemed to him to be out of all proportion to the work to be performed. Apparently the machinery was going to cost 20 per cent of the whole of the money expended. The amount of money to be expended was sufficient to set up about 100 small holders a year, and the work involved in that was so small that the cost of administration seemed to be out of all proportion. The whole sum at the disposal of the Commissioners was so small as practically to make the Bill, if it passed, inoperative. The right hon. Gentleman had said that there were now about 38,000 crofters who came under the Crofters Acts, and at the rate of 100 small holdings a year they might hope, with luck, to double the number of small holders in Scotland in 285 years. Under these circumstances he could not help thinking that the Government were offering to the people of Scotland a phantom and nothing more. He should, therefore, vote for the Amendment.

MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON

said the right hon. Gentleman had already given one estimate, for he had pointed out that the £20,000 suggested by the hon. Member for the Leith Burghs was too much, and that in his opinion the estimate of £5,000 based upon the expenditure of the Crofters Commission was nearer the mark. Had the right hon. Gentleman considered that the expenditure on the Land Court would range between the wide margin of £5,000 to £20,000? In arriving at the estimate of about £5,000, did the right hon. Gentleman include the work done by the Land Court in fixing the compensation to be paid, according to the statement of the Prime Minister, where the landlords incurred a loss? In the second place, was the cost included of fixing fair rents for crofters and small holders who were not in the original Bill, and to whose case, he understood, the right hon. Gentleman was going to give favourable consideration?

MR. COCHRANE (Ayrshire, N.)

said he would call attention to an answer which the right hon. Gentleman had given. He had pointed out to him the other day the cost of a similar Land Commission set up in Ireland in 1881 —a Commission very similar to the Crofters Commission under the Crofters Act of 1886, except that the power of free sale was included. He had pointed out to the right hon. Gentleman that the cost of the Land Commission in Ireland in 1883 rose as high as £92,000, and he had asked him what particular items should be cut off from that cost in framing the estimate of the cost of the Land Court under this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman had replied that in his view that sum of £92,000 could not be reached by the proposed Land Court. He had thereupon reminded the Secretary for Scotland that if the cost were halved it would be £46,000, or, if quartered, about £22,000. The right hon. Gentleman had stated that the annual expenditure of the Crofters Commission was about £5,000, and that that would probably be about the expenditure of the Land Court. Had the right hon. Gentleman considered what the Crofters Commission had cost? It had been in operation for some years, and it was only during recent years, that the annual expenditure had been about £5,000. In 1889–90 the cost of the Crofters Commission rose to nearly £10,000 a year. There were some 28,000 crofters holdings in Scotland, of which 15,000 had had their rents fixed. It was not merely crofters holdings but small holdings with which the present Bill would deal. There were 62,000 small holdings in Scotland paying a rent of under £50 a year, and he submitted that the figures under the Crofters Act would be doubled, especially when they remembered that in fixing 15,000 rents the expenditure had risen to £10,000 a year. He submitted that the right hon. Gentleman was not treating the House with that confidence which ought to be reposed in it. Why could he not give a clear estimate? Either he did Dot know or he would not say. Had not the right hon. Gentleman had a consultation on the documents which had passed between him and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in order to form some kind of estimate as to what was to be the cost of the Land Court? That was the only opportunity they had of discussing the financial question. It had been said that they could discuss it in Committee upstairs, but the Chairman of the Committee might very naturally say that they should have discussed it downstairs on the financial Resolution and rule them out of order. Therefore, he urged that now was the time for the right hon. Gentleman to give them an estimate. It was not only Members for Scottish constituencies who were interested, but also Members who represented English constituencies, who had a right to know to what they were committing themselves. They at any rate would get no benefit from the expenditure; indeed, they were in a batter position, because there would not be that detriment to agriculture in England which would be experienced in Scotland if this Bill were passed. Could not the right hon. Gentleman now, even at the last moment, take the House more into his confidence, and give them a statement less vague and unintelligible than that which he had put before them on Friday?

COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY

said he had hesitated to rise, in the hope that they would receive an answer from the right hon. Gentleman. The Members of that House would not all be on the Committee upstairs, and they desired to know what would be the amount of expenditure under the provisions of the Bill. They had already heard that the Land Court was to cost£6,000 for the remuneration of its chairman and four members; but did the House understand that the Land Court was to have power, with the sanction of the Secretary for Scotland, to appoint assessors, surveyors, land agents, valuers, principal clerks, clerks, messengers and other officers? He did not know on what scale the salaries of those officials were to be paid, but common sense told them that they would be fairly high; and when they added the amount of those salaries to the £6,000 for the Commissioners, the sum would be a very large percentage of the total amount provided under the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman had made an almost piteous appeal to them to leave these matters to be discussed until they saw what was put upon the Votes; but by far the better way would be for the right hon. Gentleman to take a maximum sum—after consultation with those who advised him—and put that upon the Vote. If it was found not to be sufficient, they would not be hard upon him when the discussion came on in Committee of Supply; they would be perfectly ready to understand that the cost of assessors, surveyors, valuers, principal clerks, and messengers was larger than had been expected, and that, therefore, the estimate required to be enlarged. That would be a fair way of treating the House. Would any hon. Gentleman dealing privately with an estate, and entering upon negotiations of this character, be content to leave the question of cost open in the manner here proposed? If assessors, surveyors, and valuers were to be appointed, any hon. Member of the House acting privately would form, at all events, a rough estimate of what he was going to pay. Why should not the Government follow the same course? Instead of that, however, the House were met with a blank refusal, and told that they must wait and then pay. It seemed to him that there was very little interest taken in the Bill in Scotland, except among a number of people who hoped to be assessors, valuers, surveyors, or clerks, and he would like to see the expenditure on that class limited. He desired to see a fair and reasonable maximum put down.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN (Woreestershire, E.)

said there were two questions of great importance raised by the Amendment before the House. One was whether any limit should be put on the expenditure to be incurred under the Bill. The second was whether the limit proposed by his hon. and learned friend was a satisfactory one as regarded the particular portion of the Bill to which he had allocated it. He regretted that owing, he presumed, to public business, it had not been possible for either the Prime Minister or the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be present during any part of the discussion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was in an especial sense the guardian of the public purse, and the right hon. Gentleman was, also in an especial sense, the father, godfather, and sponsor of the new Rules of procedure. The House would observe the way in which the new procedure Rule was being worked. He took a good deal of interest in the discussion on that Rule, and did his best to ascertain the reason which lay behind its adoption by the Government. In that discussion the Government asserted that they attached great importance to the financial regulations, which they said would preserve the control of the House over financial matters even in the case of Bills which were sent upstairs. His hon. friends had asked for some reasonable estimate of the expenditure involved by the measure to which the Resolution under discussion referred, and the Secretary for Scotland had informed the House that he was unable to give any estimate because he did not know what the Committee upstairs would do. Where did the control of the House come in? Under those circumstances what a farce was that discussion of the Resolution. What became of the alleged safeguard against extravagance or malversation of public money? Already, almost in the case of their first Bill, the Government were deliberately breaking down the practice which they advocated and defended when they induced the House to pass the now procedure Rules. The Government were deliberately refusing the information without which the discussion of the Resolution must be futile, and they were doing so on the plea that the new Committee upstairs put it out of their power to give any estimate. They had a right to know from the Secretary for Scotland or the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the Government's estimate of the cost of working the Bill as it stood. There mast be such an estimate in existence, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Treasury would not have concurred in the Bill without having an estimate before them. Would the Chancellor of the Exchequer give to the House the estimate given to him by the Scottish Office, and if not, would he defend his refusal? One of his hon. friends had referred to the discussion on the Aliens Bill in 1905, when a similar Amendment was moved. It was true that the late Government refused to accept that Motion which proposed to limit the expenditure under the Act to £10,000, but they did give an estimate of what the cost of the working of the Act was likely to be. In spite of that the Opposition pressed their Amendment to define and limit the sum mentioned in the Resolution, and conspicuous amongst those who voted for that Amendment were the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Secretary for Scotland. If the Government had no regard to the appeal of the Opposition, or to what they themselves had stated on the procedure Resolution, they might have some regard for consistency in regard to their votes.

MR. ASQUITH

said the right hon. Gentleman had made some reference to his absence from the debate. He was inclined to think that he had attended more of the debates than the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Woreestershire himself. He had never in the whole of his Parliamentary experience hoard so much made of such a very small matter. What was the Amendment? The Resolution did not refer to the general expenses under the Bill or the expenses of the Land Commission. It did not refer to the salaries of the Land Commissioners or the Agricultural Commissioners, but simply to the subordinate officials of the Land Court. To say that a great constitutional question was involved because they were not prepared to say how many hundreds of pounds they were likely to spend upon subordinate officials was absurd. He was not ashamed to admit that he was not in a position to say what those expenses would be. All the Resolution did was to empower the Committee upstairs to allow such expenses. Never in the experience of the House had any such Amendment as that before the House been adopted to any financial Resolution. He challenged the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer to produce one single instance in which a limiting Amendment of the kind had been allowed to control the discretion of a Committee upstairs and ultimately the House to assign to a body of the kind here proposed an adequate staff. He was still more surprised when he heard the right hon. Gentleman quote as a precedent the Aliens Bill. It was true the Opposition of that day voted in favour of an Amendment, but they also voted to negative the Resolution, because they believed that the policy of the whole Bill was bad. On that occasion the right hon. Member for Dundee pressed for an estimate of the cost and the number of additional officers who would be required in London to look after the importation of these aliens, but the late Home Secretary replied that it was quite impossible to give any detailed estimate of the expenditure until the Bill had passed through Committee and had assumed its final shape, and until they knew what they would have to provide for.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said they had asked for an estimate, and he would be perfectly satisfied if the right hon. Gentleman gave the House that information, and he would not press for the details. He intended to vote for the Amendment if they got no estimate. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had omitted to inform the House that in the debate on the Aliens Bill the late Home Secretary gave the kind of estimate for which the Opposition were now asking.

MR. ASQUITH

No, he did not give such an estimate at all.

CAPTAIN CRAIG (Down, E.)

said they were all very anxious to see small holders prosperous, and therefore they ought to take care that their proportion of the expense of the working of the Act would not make the measure a delusion and a fraud. They had had experience of a similar nature on other Boards, and if £20,000 was going to the Crofters Commission it seemed to him that they should take some step to see that the whole of the balance was not swallowed up by judges and assessors and so on. He thought the Labourers

Act in Ireland was a very fair parallel, and in that instance, from the very beginning, the expenses of carrying out the Act had been out of all proportion to the benefit that had accrued to the labourers. He hoped that under this Bill they would not fall into the same mistakes as they had done in Ireland. Over and over again it had been urged that something should be done to limit the expenses connected with small holdings. Here they were erecting costly machinery, and those in charge of the Bill could give no estimate whatever of what the cost would be. The Chancellor of the Exchequer should give an assurance that a certain proportion of the money voted each year would go to the actual working of the Act, and that the money would not be swallowed up by excessive salaries, which, in the case of Ireland, had been intolerably unjust for years past. The experience of hon. Members from Ireland was much larger in this matter than that of the Secretary for Scotland, and if the right hon. Gentleman would only communicate with the officials of the Irish Office—not the newly imported officials, but those who had been at work there for some time—he would be able to take a reasonable view of the Bill. The position of the right hon. Gentleman would be much stronger in the Committee upstairs if he could show that the Government were most anxious that the expenses in connection with the officials should not be excessive and that the class they desired to help by small holdings should concerned in benefit to the greatest possible extent.

Question put.

The House divided: Ayes, 79; Noes, 274. (Division List No. 178).

AYES.
Acland-Hood, Rt Hn. Sir Alex F.	Bridgeman, W. Clive	Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Bull, Sir William James	Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon
Anstruther-Gray, Major	Burdett-Coutts, W.	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Ashley, W. W.	Campbell, Rt. Hon. T. H. M.	Faber, Capt, W. V. (Hants, W.
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon Sir H.	Carlile, E. Hildred	Fardell, Sir T. George
Balcarres, Lord	Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C. W.	Fell, Arthur
Balfour, Rt Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)	Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)	Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)	Fletcher. J. S.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A (Wore.	Forster, Henry William
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)	Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)	Gardner. Ernest (Berks, East)
Beckett, Hon. Gervase	Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford
Bignold, Sir Arthur	Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birmingh' m)	Harrison-Broadley, H. B.
Bowles. G. Stewart	Courthope, G. Loyd	Hay, Hon. Claude George
Bovle, Sir Edward	Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim, S.	Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Edm'ds
Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W	Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk
Hills, J. W.	Magnus, Sir Philip	Starkey, John R.
Houston, Robert Paterson	Marks, H. H. (Kent)	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.	Mason. James F (Windsor)	Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Kimber, Sir Henry	Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Thornton, Percy M.
King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)	Morpeth, Viscount	Valentia, Viscount
Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.	Nield, Herbert	Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)	Percy, Earl	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham	Randles, Sir John Scurrah	Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.	Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)	Remnant. James Farquharson	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S)	Salter, Arthur Clavell	Younger and Sir Henry
Lonsdale, John Brownlee	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert	Craik.
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)	Collins, Sir W m. J. (S. Pancras, W	Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)
Acland, Francis Dyke	Cooper, G. J.	Herbert. T. Arnold (Wycombe)
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Corbett, C H (Sussex, E Grinst'd	Higham, John Sharp
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)	Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.	Hobart, Sir Robert
Ambrose, Robert	Cotton, Sir H. J. S.	Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Asquith, Rt. Hon Herbert Henry	Cowan, W. H.	Holden. E. Hopkinson
Astbury, John Meir	Cremer, William Randal	Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset. N.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Crooks, William	Howard, John Geoffrey
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)	Crosfield, A. H.	Idris, T. H. W.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Dalziel, James Henry	Illingworth, Percy H.
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)	Isaacs. Rufus Daniel
Barker, John	Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan	Jacoby, Sir James Alfred
Barlow, John Emmott (Somers't	Davies, Timothy (Fulham)	Jardine, Sir J.
Barlow. Percy (Bedford)	Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)	Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)
Barnard, E. B.	Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.	Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea
Barnes, G. N.	Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N	Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Beauchamp, E.	Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Jones, William (Carnarvonshire
Beck, A. Cecil	Dobson, Thomas W.	Jowett, F. W.
Bellairs, Carlyon	Duckworth, James	Kearley, Hudson E.
Belloc Hilaire Joseph Peter R.	Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness	Kekewich, Sir George
Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.	Edwards, Frank (Radnor)	Kilbride, Denis
Berridge, T. H. D.	Elibank, Master of	Laidlaw, Robert
Bertram, Julius	Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward	Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster
Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd	Essex, R. W.	Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon	Evans, Samuel T.	Lamont, Norman
Bilson, Afred	Everett, R. Lacey	Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Fenwick, Charles	Layland-Barratt, Francis
Black, Arthur W.	Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter	Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E
Boland, John	Fowler, Rt. Hon Sir Henry	Leese, Sir Joseph F (Accrington
Boulton, A. C. F.	Fullerton, Hugh	Lehmann, R. C.
Bowerman, C. W.	Furness, Sir Christopher	Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)
Bramsdon, T. A.	Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S.	Levy, Maurice
Branch, James	Gibb, James (Harrow)	Lewis, John Herbert
Brodie, H. C.	Gilhooly, James	Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
Brooke, Stopford	Ginnell, L.	Lough, Thomas
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)	Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John	Lundon, W.
Bryee, J. Annan	Glover, Thomas	Lupton, Arnold
Burke, E. Haviland-	Grant, Corrie	Luttrell, Hush Fownes
Burns, Rt. Hon. John	Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas	Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Bg'hs
Buxton, Rt. Hn. Richard Charles	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Mackarness, Frederic C.
Byles, William Pollard	Haldane. Rt. Hon. Richard B.	Maclean, Donald
Cairns, Thomas	Halpin, J.	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis	MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal. E.)
Carr-Gomm, H. W.	Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)	M'Callum, John M.
Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight	Harmsworth, R. L (Caithn'ss-sh.	M'Crae, George
Cawley, Sir Frederick	Hart-Davies. T.	M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Channing, Sir Francis Allston	Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)	M'Micking, Major G.
Cheetham. John Frederick	Haworth, Arthur A.	Maddison, Frederick
Cheery, Rt. Hon. R. R.	Hazel, Dr. A. E.	Mallet, Charles E.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.	Hazleton, Richard	Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)
Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)	Hedges, A. Paget	Massie, J.
Cleland, J. W.	Helme, Norval Watson	Masterman, C. F. G.
Cough, William	Henderson-Arthur (Durham)	Micklem, Nathanel
Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)	Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)	Molteno, Percy Alport
Cobbold, Felix Thornley	Henry, Charles S.	Mond, A.

Mooney, J. J.	Rickett, J. Compton	Thorne, William
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Ridsdale, E. A.	Torrance, Sir A. M.
Morrell, Philip	Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)	Toulmin, George
Morton, Alpheus Cleophas	Roberts, John H. (Den bighs)	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Murray, James	Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)	Verney, F. W.
Myer, Horatio	Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd	Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Napier, T. B.	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)	Walters, John Tudor
Nicholls, George	Robinson, S.	Walton, Sir John L. (Leedds, S.)
Nicholson, Charles N(Done aster	Robson, Sir William Snowdon	Walton, Joseph (Barnsleyy)
Nolan, Joseph	Rogers, F. E. Newman	Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)
Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Rose, Charles Day	Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n
Nussey, Thomas Willans	Rowlands, J.	Wardle, George J.
Nattall, Harry	Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)	Waring, Walter
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)	Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)	Wason, John Catheart (Orkney)
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)	Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)	Waterlow, D. S.
O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)	Sears, J. E.	Watt, Henry A.
O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N	Seaverns, J. H.	Wedgwood, Josiah C.
O'Mara, James	Seely, Major J. B.	Weir, James Galloway
Parker, James (Halifax)	Shackleton, David James	Whit bread, Howard
Partington, Oswald	Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.	White, George (Norfolk)
Paul, Herbert	Sherwell, Arthur James	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)	Shipman, Dr. John G.	Whitehead, Rowland
Pearce, William (Limehouse)	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John	Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke	Spicer, Sir Albert	Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n
Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)	Stanger, H. Y.	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth
Piekersgill, Edward Hare	Steadman, W. C.	Wills, Arthur Walters
Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)	Stewart, Halley (Greenock)	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.
Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)	Stewart-Smith, D (Kendal)	Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Radford, G. H.	Strachey, Sir Edward	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Raphael, Herbert H.	Straus, B. S. (Mile End)	Winfrey, R.
Rea, Russell (Gloucester)	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)	Wood, T. M'Kinnou
Rea, Walter Resell (Scarboro'	Sutherland, J. E.
Redmond, John E. (Waterford)	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Rees. J. D.	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)	Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr	Pease.
Richardson, A.	Thompson, J. W. H (Somerset, E

MR. RAWLINSON

moved to insert in paragraph 2 (a), line 10, the words, "Provided that the expenses in connection with the Agricultural Commissioners shall not exceed £5,000." The expenditure under the Bill might be £85,000, but he would assume that it would be only £65,000 a year. Under the Amendment he had allowed £20,000 for working expenses, and he submitted that that would be an ample margin to allow for the purpose, He was doubtful whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer under stood the previous Amendment. It was a question not merely of the salaries of the subordinate officials, but of the whole of the salaries to be paid under the powers given by the Bill. In reply to the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that it was an unusual course to move such an Amendment, he would point out that that was the only way of raising effectively a discussion on the financial clauses. There were precedents in 1904 and 1905. In the discussion on the Aliens Bill [Expenses] Resolution on 8th June, 1904, the hon. Member for Halifax objected to the Resolution being passed without some explanation. The Committee had a bank cheque presented to them which they were to sign without the least indication of the expense that would attend the working of the Aliens Bill. A good deal depended upon the cost of working the measure. There ought to be an estimate of the number of officials to be appointed. After what had happened in recent years the Committee could put no faith in Treasury supervision. Treasury control had become quite a myth in latter days.

*MR. SPEAKER

said that the hon. and learned Member was going over the whole ground again and repeating exactly the same arguments. The only thing permissible to the hon. and learned Member was to show in what respect the Amendment he now proposed to move differed from the last.

MR. RAWLINSON

said he bowed to Mr. Speaker's ruling; but was sorry that he had not the opportunity of reading on the last Amendment the extract which he now quoted. They were dealing on this particular Amendment, not with the salaries of the members of the Land Court, but with the general expenses of the Agricultural Commissioners; and the same arguments which he laid before the House in regard to the Land Court applied with redoubled force in regard to the general expenses of the Agricultural Commissioners. The power of expenditure by the Agricultural Commissioners ought to be limited most carefully, because their operations covered a wider field. He submitted that there was nothing in the circumstances to justify them in delegating the powers of the House to the Commissioners or in trusting to the control of the Treasury. He begged to move.

SIR F. BANBURY

seconded the Amendment. No argument had come from the Front Treasury Bench against the Amendment, and the Opposition were only doing their duty in pressing it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that the last Amendment dealt only with the salaries of a few clerks; but this Amendment dealt with all the expenses connected with the Agricultural Commissioners, and they were entitled to ask that a sum should be named in the Bill.

Amendment proposed— In paragraph 2 (a), line 10, at the end, to insert the words 'Provided that the expenses

in connection with the Agricultural Commissioners shall not exceed live thousand pounds.'"—(Mr. Rawlinson.)

Question proposed. "That those words be there inserted."

MR. SINCLAIR

said that the Amendment proposed to limit the expenditure of the Agricultural Commission. But the Agricultural Commission would be simply a Department of the Civil Service; and it was quite unusual to put any sum in such a Resolution as was now before the House limiting the expenditure of an administrative Department. He repeated that Parliament retained the whole control over that expenditure through the Estimates.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,) Stirling Burghs

rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The House divided:—Ayes, 273; Noes, 80. (Division List No. 179.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)	Brodie, H. C.	Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan
Acland, Fraucis Dyke	Brooke, Stopford	Davies, Timothy (Fulham)
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)	Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)	Bryce, J. Annan	Dewar. John A. (Inverness-sh.
Ambrose, Robert	Burke. E. Haviland-	Dickinson, W. H. (St, Pancras N.
Asquith, Rt. Hon Herbert Henry	Burns, Rt. Hon. John	Dickson-Povnder, Sir John P.
Astbury, John Meir	Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas	Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Atherley-Jones, L.	Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles	Dobson, Thomas W.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Byles, William Pollard	Duckworth, James
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)	Cairns, Thomas	Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Edwards, Frank (Radnor)
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Carr-Gomm, H. W.	Elibank, Master of
Barker, John	Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight	Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward
Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset	Cawley, Sir Frederick	Essex, R. W.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Channing, Sir Francis Allston	Evans, Samuel T.
Barnard, E. B.	Cheetham, John Frederick	Everett, R. Lacey
Barnes, G. N.	Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.	Fenwick, Charles
Beauchamp, E.	Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.	Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter
Beck, A. Cecil	Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)	Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R.	Cleland, J. W.	Fullerton, Hugh
Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.	Clough, William	Furness, Sir Christopher
Berridge, T. H. D.	Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)	Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S.
Bertram, Julius	Cobbold, Felix Thornley	Gibb, James (Harrow)
Bethell, Sir J. H (Essex, Romf'rd	Collins, Sir W m. J. (S. Pancras, W	Gilhooly, James
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)	Corbett, C. H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd	Ginnell, L.
Billson, Alfred	Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.	Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Cotton, Sir H. J. S.	Glover, Thomas
Black, Arthur W.	Cox, Harold	Grant, Corrie
Boland, John	Cremer, William Randal	Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)
Boulton, A. C. F.	Crooks, William	Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill
Bowerman, C. W.	Crosfield, A. H.	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Bramsdon, T. A.	Dalziel, James Henry	Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.
Branch, James	Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)	Halpin, J.
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis	Maddison, Frederick	Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)
Harmsworth, R. L (Caithn'ss-sh.	Mallet, Charles E.	Sears, J. E.
Hart-Davies, T.	Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)	Seaverns, J. H.
Harvey, A. G. C (Rochdale)	Massie, J.	Seely, Major J. B.
Haworth, Arthur A.	Masterman, C. F. G.	Shackleton, David James
Hazel, Dr. A. E.	Micklem, Nathaniel	Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)
Hazleton, Richard	Molteno, Percy Alport	Sherwell, Arthur James
Hedges, A. Paget	Mond, A.	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Helme, Norval Watson	Mooney, J. J.	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Spicer, Sir Albert
Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)	Morrell, Philip"	Stanger, H. Y.
Henry, Charles S.	Morton, Alpheus Lleophas	Steadman, W. C.
Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)	Murray, James	Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)	Myer, Horatio	Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendall
Higham, John Sharp	Napier, T. B.	Strachey, Sir Edward
Hobart, Sir Robert	Nicholls, George	Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Hobhouse, Charles E. H.	Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Holden, E. Hopkinson	Nolan, Joseph	Sutherland, J. E.
Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey	Nussey, Thomas Willans	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Idris, T. H. W.	Nuttall, Harry	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Illingworth, Percy H.	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)	Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E
Isaacs, Rufus Daniel	O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)	Thorne, William
Jacoby, Sir James Aflred	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)	Torrance, Sir A. M.
Jardine, Sir J.	O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)	Toulmin, George
Johnson, W. (Nuncaton)	O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)	Parker, James (Halifax)	Verney, F. W.
Tones, Leif (Appleby)	Partington, Oswald	Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire	Paul, Herbert	Walters, John Tudor
Jowett, F. W.	Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)	Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Kearley, Hudson E.	Pearce, William (Limehouse)	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Kekewich, Sir George	Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke	Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent
King, Alfred John (Knutsford)	Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)	Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton
Laidlaw, Robert	Pickersgill, Edward Hare	Wardle, George J.
Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster	Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)	Waring, Walter
Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)	Price, Robert, John (Norfolk, E.)	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Lambert, George	Radford, G. H.	Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Lamont, Norman	Raphael, Herbert H.	Waterlow, D. S.
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)	Rea, Russell (Gloucester)	Watt, Henry A.
Layland-Barratt, Francis	Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'	Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.	Redmond, John E. (Waterford)	Weii1, James Galloway
Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)	Rees, J. D.	Whitbread, Howard
Lehmann, R. C.	Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n	White, George (Norfolk)
Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)	Richardson, A.	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Levy, Maurice	Rickett, J. Compton	Whitehead, Rowland
Lewis, John Herbert	Ridsdale, E. A.	Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David	Roberts, Charles H. (Linclon)	Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthn
Lough, Thomas	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Lundon, W.	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Lupton, Arnold	Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee	Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Luttrell, Hugh Fownes	Robertson, Sir G. Scolt (Bradf'rd	Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Macdonald, J M. (Falkirk B'ghs	Robinson, S.	Winfrey, R.
Mackarness, Frederic C	Robson, Sir William Snowdon	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Rogers, F. E. Newman
MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)	Rose, Charles Day	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
M'Callum, John M.	Rowlands, J.	Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
M'Crae, George	Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)	Pease.
M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
M'Micking, Major G.	Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
NOES.
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Beckett, Hon. Gervase	Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)
Anstruther-Gray, Major	Bignold, Sir Arthur	Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.
Ashley, W. W.	Boyle, Sir Edward	Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birmingh'm
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon Sir H.	Bridgeman, W. Clive	Courthope, G. Loyd
Balcarres, Lord	Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.	Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)
Balfour, Rt Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)	Carlile, E. Hildred	Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)	Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Craik, Sir Henry
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C. W.	Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)	Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks	Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A (Wore.	Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W

Fardell, Sir T. George	Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham	Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Fell, Arthur	Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.	Sulter, Arthur Clavell
Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Fletcher, J. S.	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.
Forster, Henry William	Londsale, John Brownlee	Smith, F. E. (Liverpool. Walton)
Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk
Hardy, Laurence (Kent Ashford	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W	Starkey, John R.
Harrison-Broadley, H. B.	Magnus, Sir Philip	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Hay, Hon. Claude George	Marks, H. H. (Kent)	Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S Edm'ds	Mason, James F. (Windsor)	Thornton, Percy M.
Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)	Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Hills, J. W.	Morpeth, Viscount	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Hornby, Sir William Wenry	Nield, Herbert	Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Houston, Robert Paterson	O'Neill, Hon. Robert, Torrens	Younger, George
Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col W.	Percy, Earl
Kimber, Sir Henry	Randles, Sir John Scurrah	TELLERS FOR THE NOES-Sir
King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)	Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel	Alexander Acland-Hood and
Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)	Remnant, James Farquharson	Viscount Valentia.

Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted."

The House divided:—Ayes, 83; Noes, 275. (Division List No. 180.)

AYES.
Acland-Hood, Rt Hn. Sir Alex. F.	Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon	Magnus, Sir Philip
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Marks, H. H. (Kent)
Ashley, W. W.	Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)	Mason, James F. (Windsor)
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.	Fardell, Sir T. George	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Balcarres, Lord	Fell, Arthur	Morpeth, Viscount
Balfour, Rt Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)	Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey	Nield, Herbert
Balfour, Capt, C. B. (Hornsey)	Fletcher, J. S.	O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Ban bury, Sir Fredrick George	Forster, Henry William	Percy, Earl
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)	Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)	Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd	Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Beckett, Hon. Gervase	Harrison-Broadley, H. B.	Remnant, James Farquaharson
Bignold, Sir Arthur	Hay, Hon. Claude George	Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Bowles, G. Stewart	Hervey, F. W. F (Bury S. Edm'ds	Salter, Arthur Clavell
Boyle, Sir Edward	Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Bridgeman, W. Clive	Hills, J. W.	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.	Horndy, Sir William Henry	Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)
Carlile, E. Hildred	Houston, Robert Paterson	Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.	Starkey, John R.
Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C. W.	Kimber, Sir Henry	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)	Thornton, Percy M.
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)	Lambton, Hon. Frederick W m.	Valentia, Vicount
Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A (Wore.	Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)	Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Coates, E. Fcetham (Lewisham)	Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.	Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E. R.)
Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birmingham	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham	Younger, George
Courthope, G. Loyd	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S)
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)	Lonsdale, John Brownlee	TELLERS FOR The A YES—Major
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Major Anstruther-Gray and
Craik, Sir Henry	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W.	Mr. Mitchell-Thomson.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)	Barnard, E. B.	Boulton, A. C. F.
Acland, Francis Dyke	Barnes, G. N.	Bowerman, C. W.
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Beauchamp, E.	Bramsdon, T. A.
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)	Beck, A. Cecil	Branch, James
Ambrose, Robert	Bellairs, Carlyon	Brodie, H. C.
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry	Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R,	Brooke, Stopford
Astbury, John Meir	Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.	Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)
Atherley-Jones, L.	Berridge, T. H. D.	Bryce, J. Annan
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Bertram, Julius	Burke, E. Haviland-
Baker, Toseph A. (Finsbury, E.)	Bethell, Sir J. H (Essex, Romf'rd	Burns, Pvt. Hon. John
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Bethell, T. E. (Essex, Maldon)	Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Billson, Alfred	Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles
Barker, John	Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Byles, William Pollard
Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset	Black, Arthur W.	Cairns, Thomas
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Boland, John	Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.
Carr-Gomm, H. W.	Hobhouse, Charles E. H.	Paul, Herbert
Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight	Holden, E. Hopkinson	Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)
Cawley, Sir Frederick	Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.	Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Charming, Sir Francis Allston	Howard, Hon. Geoffrey	Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke
Cheetham, John Frederick	Idris, T. H. W.	Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.	Illingworth, Percy H.	Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.	Isaacs, Rufus Daniel	Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)
Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)	Jacoby, Sir James Alfred	Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)
Cleland, J. W.	Jardine, Sir J.	Radford, G. H.
Clough, William	Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Raphael, Herbert H.
Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)	Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)	Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Cobbold, Felix Thornley	Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'
Collins, Sir W m. J. (S. Pancras, W.	Jones, Williams(Carnarvonshire)	Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd	Jowett, F. W.	Rees, J. D.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.	Kearley, Hudson E.	Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n
Cotton, Sir H. J. S.	Kekewich, Sir George	Richardson, A.
Cowan, W. H.	King, Alfred John (Knutsford)	Rickett, J. Compton
Cremer, William Randal	Laidlaw, Robert	Ridsdale, E. A.
Crooks, William	Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)	Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Crosfield, A. H.	Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Dalziel, James Henry	Lambert, George	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)	Lamont, Norman	Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan]	Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)	Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd
Davies, Timothy (Fulham)	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)	Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.)	Robinson, S.
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)	Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)	Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.	Lehmann, R. C.	Rogers, F. E. Newman
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)	Rose, Charles Day
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Levy, Maurice	Rowlands, J.
Dobson, Thomas W.	Lewis, John Herbert	Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Duckworth, James	Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)	Lough, Thomas	Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Edwards, Frank (Radnor)	Lundon, W.	Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)
Elibank, Master of	Lupton, Arnold	Sears, J. E.
Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward	Luttrell, Hugh Fownes	Seaverns, J. H.
Essex, R. W.	Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Seely, Major J. B.
Evans, Samuel T.	Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs	Shackleton, David James
Everett, R. Lacey	Mackarness, Frederic C.	Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)
Fenwick, Charles	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Sherwell, Arthur James
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter	MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	M'Callum, John M.	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Fullerton, Hugh	M'C'rae, George	Spicer, Sir Albert
Furness, Sir Christopher	M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald	Stanger, H. Y.
Gardner, Co. IAlan-Hereford, S.)	M'Micking, Major G.	Steadman, W. C.
Gibb, James (Harrow)	Maddison, Frederick	Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Gilhooly, James	Mallet, Charles E.	Stewart-Smith D. (Kendal)
Ginnell, L.	Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)	Strachey, Sir Edward
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John	Massie, J.	Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Glover, Thomas	Masterman, C. F. G.	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Grant, Corrie	Micklem, percy Alport	Sutherland, J. E.
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	Molteno, Percy Alport	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	Mond, A.	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Mooney, J. J.	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.	Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.
Halpin, J.	Morrell, Philip	Thorne, William
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis	Morton, Alpheus Cleophas	Torrance, Sir A. M.
Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)	Murray, James	Toulmin, George
Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh	Myer, Horatio	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Hart-Davies, T.	Napier, T. B.	Verney, F. W.
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)	Nicholls, George	Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Haworth, Arthur A.	Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r	Walters, John Tudor
Hazel, Dr. A. K.	Nolan, Joseph	Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Hazleton, Richard	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Hedges, A. Paget	Nussey, Thomas Willans	Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)
Helme, Norval Watson	Nuttall, Harry	Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton
Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)	Wardle, George J.
Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.]	O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)	Waring, Walter
Henry, Charles S.	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)	O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)	Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)	O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.	Wraterlow, D. S.
Higham, John Sharp	Parker, James (Halifax)	Watt, Henry A.
Hobart, Sir Robert	Partington, Oswald	Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Weir, James Galloway	Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen	Winfrey, R.
Whitbread, Howard	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
White, George (Norfolk)	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)	Wilson, J. H. (.Middlesbrough)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Whitehead, Rowland	Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)	Whiteley and Mr. J. A
Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)	Pease.

SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

claimed "That the main Question be now put."

The House divided:—Ayes, 275; Noes, 84. (Division List No. 181.)

AYES.
Abraham, W m. (Cork, N. E.)	Cobbold, Felix Thornley	Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Acland, Francis Dyke	Collins, Sir W m. J. (S. Pancras, W.	Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstd	Henry, Charles S.
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)	Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.	Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon. S.)
Ambrose, Robert	Cotton, Sir H. J. S.	Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry	Cowan, W. H.	Higham, John Sharp
Astbury, John Meir	Cox, Harold	Hobart, Sir Robert
Atherley-Jones, L.	Cremer, William Randal	Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Crooks, William	Holden, E. Hopkinson
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.	Crosfield, A. H.	Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Dalziel, James Henry	Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)	Idris, T. H. W.
Barker, John	Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan	Illingworth, Percy H.
Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset	Davies, Timothy (Fulham)	Isaacs, Rufus Daniel
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)	Jacoby, Sir James Alfred
Barnard, E. B.	Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)	Jardine, Sir J.
Barnes, G. N.	Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N	Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)
Beauchamp, E.	Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)
Beck, A. Cecil	Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Bellairs, Carlyon	Dobson, Thomas W.	Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)
Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R.	Duckworth, James	Jowett, F. W.
Benn, W. (T'w'rH'mlets, S. Geo.	Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness	Kearley, Hudson E.
Berridge, T. H. D.	Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall	Kekewich, Sir George f;
Bertram, Julius	Edwards, Frank (Radnor)	King, Alfred John (Knutsford)
Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd	Elibank, Master of	Laidlaw, Robert
Bethell, T. R, (Essex, Maldon)	Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward	Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster
Billson, Alfred	Essex, R. W.	Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Evans, Samuel T.	Lambert, George
Black, Arthur W.	Everett, R. Lacey	Lamont, Norman
Boland, John	Fenwick, Charles	Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Boulton, A. C. F.	Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter	Layland-Barratt, Francis
Bowerman, C. W.	Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.)
Bramsdon, T. A.	Fullerton, Hugh	Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)
Branch, James	Furness, Sir Christopher	Lehmann, R. C.
Brodie, H. C.	Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S.)	Levy, Maurice
Brooke, Stopford	Gibb, James (Harrow)	Lewis, John Herbert
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)	Ginnell, L.	Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
Bryce, J. Annan	Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John	Lough, Thomas
Burke, E. Haviland-	Glover, Thomas	Lundon, W.
Burns, Rt. Hon. John	Grant, Corrie	Lupton, Arnold
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas	Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	Luttrell, Hugh Fownes
Byles, William Pollard	Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Cairns, Thomas	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.	Mackarness, Frederic C.
Carr-Gomm, H. W.	Halpin, J.	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight	Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis	MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)
Cawley, Sir Frederick	Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)	M'Callum, John M.
Channing, Sir Francis Allston	Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh	M'Crae, George
Cheetham, John Frederick	Hart-Davies, T.	M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.	Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)	M'Micking, Major G.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.	Haworth, Arthur A.	Maddison, Frederick
Clarke, C. Goddard (Pechkam)	Hazel, Dr. A. E.	Mallet, Charles K
Cleland, J. W.	Hazelton, Richard	Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)
Clough, William	Hedges, A. Paget	Massie, J.
Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)	Helme, Norval Watson	Masterman, C. F. G.
Micklem, Nathaniel	Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mptn	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Molteno, Percy Alport	Richardson, A.	Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.
Mond, A.	Rickett, J. Compton	Thorne, William
Mooney, J. J.	Ridsdale, E. A.	Tillett, Louis John
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)	Torrance, Sir A. M.
Morrell, Philip	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)	Toulmin, George
Morton, Alpheus Cleophas	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Murray, James	Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee	Verney, F. W.
Myer, Horatio	Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd	Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Napier, T. B.	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)	Walters, John Tudor
Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)	Robinson, S.	Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Nicholls, George	Robson, Sir William Snowdon	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r	Rogers, F. E. Newman	Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)
Nolan, Joseph	Rose, Charles Day	Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton
Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Rowlands, J.	Wardle, George J.
Nussey, Thomas Willans	Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)	Waring, Walter
Nuttall, Harry	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)	Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)	Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)	Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)	Waterlow, D. S.
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)	Sears, J. E.	Watt, Henry A.
O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)	Seaverns, J. H.	Weir, James Galloway
O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)	Seely, Major J. B.	Whitbread, Howard
Parker, James (Halifax)	Shackleton, David James	White, George (Norfolk)
Partington, Oswald	Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Paul, Herbert	Sherwell, Arthur James	Whitehead, Rowland
Pearce, Robert (Stalls, Leek)	Shipman, Dr. John G.	Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Pearce, William (Limehouse)	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John	Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n
Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke	Spicer, Sir Albert	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)	Stanger, H. Y.	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Pickersgill, Edward Hare	Steadman, W. C.	Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)	Stewart, Halley (Greenock)	Wilson, P. W. (Sr. Pancras, S.)
Price, Robot. John (Norfolk, E.)	Stewart-Smith, D. (Kcnial)	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Radford, G. H.	Strachey, Sir Edward	Winfrey, R.
Raphael, Herbert H.	Straus, B. S. (Mile End)	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Rea, Russell (Gloucester)	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Rea, Walter Russell (Searboro'	Sutherland, J. E.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Redmond, John E. (Waterford)	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)	Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Rees, J. D.	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)	Pease.
NOES.
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon	Magnus, Sir Philip
Anstruther-Gray, Major	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Marks, H. H. (Kent)
Ashley, W. W.	Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)	Mason, James F. (Windsor)
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.	Fardell, Sir T. George	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Balcarres, Lord	Fell, Arthur	Morpeth, Viscount
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.	Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey	Nield, Herbert
Balfour, Capt. C. B. Hornsey)	Fletcher, J. S.	O'Neill, hon. Robert Torrens
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Forster, Henry William	Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)	Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)	Percy, Earl
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford	Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Beckett, Hon. Gervase	Harrison-Broadley, H. B.	Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Bignold, Sir Arthur	Hay, Hon. Claude George	Remnant, James Farquharson
Bowles, G. Stewart	Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Edm'ds	Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Boyle, Sir Edward	Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)	Salter, Arthur Clavell
Bridgeman, W. Clive	Hills, J. W.	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.	Hornby, Sir William Henry	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.
Carlile, E. Hildred	Houston, Robert Paterson	Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.	Starkey, John R.
Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W.	Kim her, Sir Henry	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)	Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)	Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.	Thornton, Percy M.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wore	Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)	Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)	Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.	Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Colligs, Rt. Hn. J. (Birmingham	Long, Col. Chas W. (Evesham)	Younger, George
Courthope, G. Loyd	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.
Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)	Lonsdale, John Brownlee	TELLERS FOE THE NOES—Sir
Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Alexander Acland-Hood and
Craik, Sir Henry	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh, W.	Viscount Valentia.

Question put, and agreed to.

Main Question put accordingly, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."