§ MR. FLYNNI beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in the proposed modifications of the intermediate education system in Ireland, embodied in the new programme for 1908, the Board proposes to make two languages, besides English, compulsory; that, by the existing regulations prior to the adoption by this House of the Motion of the hon. Member for West Kerry, only one language, with English, was obligatory, and that this Motion merely put Irish on the same footing as other languages, and, accordingly, that the new Rules are an evasion of the Resolution of the House of Commons on the subject of Irish; is he aware that the English Board of Education pay grants to secondary schools in which no modern language is taught, and in which the needs of the locality are their first consideration, and that the London University course can be passed with only one foreign language; and whether, in view of all the circumstances of the case, the Lord-Lieutenant will order the Intermediate Board to withdraw the rule making two languages, with English, obligatory.
§ MR. BIRRELLThe Rules for 1908, having lain upon the Table for the 232 specified time without disallowment, are now in force and cannot be altered. I find that my predecessor fully considered the question now raised by the hon. Member, and I do not therefore propose to enter into it afresh. I would refer to Mr. Bryce's Answer to the Question of the hon. Member for West Leitrim on 19th December last.†
§ MR. BIRRELLsaid the reasons for the action were stated in the Answer he had referred to.
§ MR. MOORE (Armagh, N.)Is it not the fact that the Motion only applied to the Rules for 1907,and that hon. Members made no objection to the Rules for 1908 which are now in force?
§ MR. BIRRELLThat is so.
§ MR. FLYNNI beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, in respect to the Intermediate Education Programme and Rules for 1908, whether the attention of the Lord-Lieutenant was called to that part of the syllabus dealing with arithmetic and algebra; is he aware that on the pass papers arithmetic counts for 30 per cent. only of the entire, whilst algebra counts for 70 per cent., and in the honour papers arithmetic counts for 10 per cent. only and algebra for 90; is he aware that in the examinations for the Second Division Civil Service arithmetic counts for 600 marks and elementary mathematics for 400; and whether the Commissioners will be invited to modify the rule, which acts so disadvantageously on pupils who may be intended for an industrial or commercial career, or for the Civil Service.
§ MR. BIRRELLThe relative percentages of the value of arithmetic and algebra under the Rules of the Intermediate Education Board are correctly stated in the Question. The object of the Board is to test whether students of Intermediate Schools have acquired a general education, and accordingly they
†See (4) Debates clxvii, 1522–23.233 do not require the specialisation in arithmetic which may be necessary in the second division of the Civil Service.
§ MR. FLYNNIs it not the fact that the rule penalises the vast majority who are going in for industrial or commercial and other pursuits suitable to Ireland?
§ MR. BIRRELLThere is something in what the hon. Member suggests.
§ MR. FLYNNI beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, in reference to the Intermediate Education Programme for 1908, whether the attention of the Lord-Lieutenant was called to Rule 4 before the official sanction was given to the rules; is he aware that in order to pass in experimental science pupils must work through the prescribed course to the satisfaction of an inspector of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction, and to pass with honours must pass a qualifying practical test by the inspector, and failure to satisfy the inspector in a single practical question involves total disqualification from winning a scholarship or exhibition, no matter how successful the student may be in all other respects; if he can say under what statute, or other enabling power, the Intermediate Commissioners delegated their powers to the officials of another distinct Department; are the Commissioners aware that these inspectors are nominated by the Board of Agriculture independent of examination, and that many of them have no University degree whatever; and whether, in view of the opposition to this rule on the part of many head masters, it will be withdrawn or modified by His Excellency.
§ MR. BIRRELLThe hon. Member refers to Regulation 9 (b) (4) of the Programme of the Intermediate Education Board. The arrangement referred to in the Question has been in force since 1902, and the Board hold that they have full statutory power to make such arrangement. The facts are not precisely as stated in the Question, and I am forwarding to the hon. Member a full report on the subject which I have received. As I have already stated the Rules for 1908 are now in force, and cannot be altered.
§ MR. FLYNNI beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, in connection with the Irish 234 Intermediate Education system, whether he is aware that in the years preceding 1906 the programme of future examination was published by the Board once it was laid upon the Table of this House, thus giving head masters' associations and others interested an opportunity of considering it, but that in regard to the new programme for 1908, laid upon the Table late in the autumn session, 1906, no outsider saw a copy of it until the forty days had expired, and that few Members of this House were aware of its provision; and whether, in view of the opposition to the proposed changes contemplated in the new programme, almost unanimously expressed by head masters and head mistresses' associations, he will represent to the Board the necessity for modifying the programme in such a manner as will make it acceptable to educated public opinion in Ireland.
§ MR. BIRRELLPrior to 1906 it was the practice of the Intermediate Education Board to publish their Rules and programmes as soon as they had been laid before Parliament, thereby anticipating the approval of Parliament. In 1906 the Rules for 1907 were disallowed by Parliament after they had been published by the Board. In that case it became necessary for the Board to withdraw the Rules which had been issued, and as these Rules were on sale by booksellers throughout the country it was impossible to secure that all the copies should be returned. In view of the inconvenience thus caused, the Board decided not to publish their Rules for 1908 until they had become indefeasible. It is open to head-masters and others to make representations to the Board in favour of any modifications which they may desire in the Rules for future years.
§ MR. FLYNNIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that for many years past the Intermediate Education Board have followed the example of the Department of Technical Instruction and have laid a draft of the programme before the parties interested, and that afterwards two of the Commissioners have met a Committee and discussed details?
§ MR. BIRRELLI think that is a very desirable method.
§ MR. FLYNNI beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of 235 Ireland whether the income of the Intermediate Education Board (Ireland) under Section 3 of the Customs and Excise Act, 1890, has declined from the sum of £71,400 in 1900 to £48,225 in 1906, and the rate of payment of the school grant for each successful pupil has been reduced on the following scale within the past four years; in the preparatory grade by 45 per cent., in the junior grade by 28.5 per cent., in the middle grade by 47.0 per cent., and in the senior grade by 46.0 per cent., with corresponding reductions in respect to honour pupils; and, if so, whether, in view of the fact that this decrease in the board's income is a direct result of the diminished consumption of drink in Ireland, he will make representation to the Treasury that funds should be supplied from some other source to enable this work of secondary education to be carried on in an efficient manner, and to place the board in such a position that the main source of its income should no longer depend upon the continuance of the consumption of alcoholic drink in Ireland.
§ MR. BIRRELLI understand that the figures quoted in the Question are approximately correct. I am informed, however, that the reduction in the amount of the capitation fees is due mainly to the increase in the numbers of students in the pass and honour lists, and in a less degree to the decrease in the amount received from the Local Taxation Account. The point raised in the latter part of the Question is one which deserves consideration at a suitable opportunity, but I am not at present in a position to make any statement upon it. I should, however, remind the hon. Member that the board's revenue from the Local Taxation Account is not dependent upon the consumption of drink in Ireland alone, but upon the thirst of the United Kingdom generally.
§ MR. FLYNNIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that one result of this policy is that the income of the board diminishes proportionately with the increase of temperance in the country?
§ MR. BIRRELLThe subject is one which requires consideration.