§ MR. MACKARNESS (Berkshire, Newbury)I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether, by the State Prisoners Regulation, 1818, under which Lala Lajpat Rai and Ajit Singh have been deported, it is provided that when it may be determined that any person shall be placed under restraint otherwise than in pursuance of some judicial proceeding the grounds of such determination shall from time to time come under revision, and the person affected thereby shall at all times be allowed freely to bring to the notice of the Governor General in Council all circumstances relating to the supposed ground of such determination, or to the manner in which it may be executed; and whether either of the above-named State prisoner have availed themselves of the permission so accorded by the Regulation.
§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. MORLEY,) Montrose BurghsThe Answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative; the Answer to the second part, according to the latest information in my possession, is in the negative.
§ MR. MACKARNESSI beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether at the time of their arrest and deportation, or at any other time, Lala Lajpat Rai and Ajit Singh made any protests against the treatment to which they were subjected or raised any defence to the charges alleged against them; and, if so, what was the nature of the protests or defence.
§ MR. MORLEYAccording to my information, the Answer is in the negative
§ MR. MACKARNESSI beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether at the time of the arrest and deportation of Lala Lajpat Rai and Ajit Singh, they were informed of the grounds upon which it was thought necessary to arrest and deport them; and, if so, what were those grounds.
§ MR. MORLEYThe persons mentioned knew that they were arrested under the State Prisoners Regulation, and one of them has since applied for a copy of the order authorising his arrest. He had a copy given him and he was informed in the terms of the Regulation that the reason for his arrest and deportation was to preserve a portion of His Majesty's dominions from internal commotion.
§ MR WILLIAM REDMOND (Clare, E.)I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he will say whether Lala Lajpat Rai and others, recently arrested summarily in India, are considered as political prisoners; and what treatment is accorded and where they are detained.
§ MR. MORLEYThe two persons referred to are officially designated State prisoners. They are detained at Mandalay, where they are lodged, in houses within the fort. They receive allowances for maintenance suited to their positions in life.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there is any difference between the treatment of these prisoners and political prisoners in this country; whether they have any means of communicating at all with their friends outside, or whether, under any conditions, their friends have access to them?
§ MR. MORLEYI believe my hon. friend and I have fought together the battle of political prisoners before now. If he will put a Question down, I do not doubt that the Answer will be satisfactory.
§ MR. MACKARNESSMay I ask whether the charge of causing internal commotion is not one to be dealt with by the Penal Code, passed forty years after this Ordinance, and whether, under these circumstances, there is any jurisdiction 315 under the Ordinance of 1818 to deal with these offencos?
§ MR. MORLEYMy hon. and learned friend being a lawyer, must see that a Question of that kind must have notice.
§ MR. O'GRADY (Leeds, E.)I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the fact that Lala Lajpat Rai was not connected with the agitation carried on by Ajit Singh, and that no specific charge of preaching sedition has been alleged against him, in what particular did the Regulation of 1818 apply, giving power to the Indian Government to order the arrest and deportation of Lajpat Rai.
§ MR. MORLEYIt has never been admitted, and is not the case, that there is no connection between Lajpat Rai and the agitation carried on by Ajit Singh. The Regulation of 1818 gives full power to the Government to take action under it whenever reasons of State, including the security of the British dominions from internal commotion, require any person to be placed under personal restraint.
§ MR. O'GRADYAm I to understand, then, that there has been a definite charge against Lajpat Rai of causing sedition?
§ MR. MORLEYI have already said, almost too often, in answer to my hon. friend and to one or two hon. Gentlemen below the gangway on this side, that it is entirely adverse to the public interest to go into details as to the circumstances which the Government of India, with my full assent, thought justified the application of this law—the law of the land.
§ MR. O'GRADYMay I ask, if it can be proved beyond a shadow of doubt that Lajpat Rai did not preach sedition, is there to be no appeal or redress then?
MR. LUTON (Lincolnshire, Sleaford)May I ask whether, if it is so dangerous for Lajpat Rai to go back to the Punjab because it is in such an inflammable condition, the right hon. Gentleman would make an inquiry into the condition of the people and ascertain the causes of disaffection?
§ MR. MORLEYDoes not my hon. friend feel assured that I am all day long inquiring into it?
§ SIR H. COTTON (Nottingham, E.)May I ask whether it is a fact that Lajpat Rai was only present at one of the many public meetings which were organised and addressed by Ajit Singh?
§ MR. MORLEYTo the best of my information, that is not the case.
§ SIR H. COTTONAt how many then?
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILL (Donegal, S.)Did the right hon. Gentleman hear the observation made by the Member for Sheffield, "Why not shoot Lajpat Rai?" That is a shameful observation. Withdraw what you said, Sir.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDI rise to a point of order. I beg respectfully to ask you, Sir, whether it is in order for an hon. Gentleman in this House to make the suggestion publicly that one of these British subjects should be shot.
§ SIR HOWARD VINCENT (Sheffield, Central)Perhaps it is unnecessary to say I made no observation of any sort. I spoke to myself.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLI heard you myself.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDWe all heard it here.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLWith all respect, an hon. Gentleman who speaks aloud in this House speaks to the whole Empire. I wish to ask is it consistent with order and practice in this House that a clear incitement to murder should be made?
§ * MR. SPEAKERI certainly did not hear the expression.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDWe all heard it here.
§ * MR. SPEAKERI said the expression did not reach my ears.
§ SIR HOWARD VINCENTThey listen to private conversations. [NATIONALIST shouts of "Oh, oh!")
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLWithdraw. How dare you say that!
§ * MR. SPEAKERThe observation did not reach my ears. That is all I am prepared to say as to that. I should like to add this, that if the hon. and gallant Member for Sheffield could control the observations which he if always interjecting, not only during Question time, but during debate, it would be to the general advantage of the House.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDMay I with great respect ask the Secretary for India whether, in view of the very serious condition of affairs in India, and the damage and exasperation likely to be caused by the reporting of an observation made in this House that an Indian prisoner should be shot, he would at once take measures to dissociate not only himself, but the Government, entirely from the statement?
§ MR. MORLEYI think all I need to say is that it is very fortunate that the hon. Gentleman is not, and never has been, in any position of executive responsibility.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDI beg to give notice that, if anything should happen to any of these Indian prisoners imprisoned without trial, a very considerable section of Members in this House—certainly Members representing Ireland — will take steps to put the blame on the shoulders of those who are responsible.
§ MR. O'GRADYI beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he was consulted by cable by the Government of India before the order for the arrest and deportation of Lajpat Rai was actually issued; and whether he has since made any inquiries as to whether there were charges sufficiently grave alleged against Lajpat Rai to warrant the case coming under the Regulations of 1818.
§ MR. MORLEYThe case being deemed a. case of urgency, the Governor-General in Council decided at once to issue the two warrants, and immediately telegraphed the circumstances and their decision to me. Without hesitation I approved. The Answer to the second; part of the Question is in the affirmative.
§ SIR H. COTTONMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will make further inquiries as to the degree of complicity, if any, between Lajpat Rai and Ajit Singh?
§ MR. MORLEYNo. I do not think I can promise that, because I have had the advantage of long conversations with Sir Denzil Ibbetson, Lieutenant-Governor of the Punjab, and I do not think it is necessary for me to make further inquiries of the kind my hon. friend demands.
§ SIR H. COTTONIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is universally affirmed in India that there is no connection whatever —
§ * MR. SPEAKERWill the hon. Member kindly put any further Question that he has on the Paper?