HC Deb 26 February 1907 vol 169 cc1509-25

2. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for the Salaries and other Expenses of Temporary Commissions, Committees, and Special Inquiries.


asked whether there was any intention on the part of the Government to publish at any time the Report of the West Ridgeway Committee. Hon. Members would remember the circumstances under which the Committee was formed. The Prime Minister declared in this House in answer to a Question that the information with regard to South Africa was so woefully lacking that in order to supply to the Government the necessary information, a Committee had been appointed to proceed to the Transvaal and the Orange Colony in order that investigations might be made and information given to the Government on the facts that were relevant to the grant of the new Constitution. That Committee was comprised of three Members, two of whom—he had a very great respect for them—were declared supporters of the Government. It would have been of great assistance to this House and to the country in making up its mind as to whether responsible Government should be given to the Transvaal if this Report had been published for the information not merely of the Government, but of the whole of the people of the country, whose interest in this matter was of the most vital character. The Government appeared to be somewhat reckless of expenditure on Commissions, but when that expenditure had been made, it appeared not an uncommon practice to withhold from the people the result of the expenditure. There was a singular contrast in this regard without going outside South Africa to be found in the policy of the Government who sent out at the public expense what he believed to be the inaccurate speeches of the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, speeches which were not avowed by his political chief, and the policy of the same Government in sending out to South Africa for the information of the public impartial men and concealing that information when obtained. He thought these matters required explanation. In a matter so vital as the granting of a Constitution to a Colony such information ought not to be withheld, and the people in the Transvaal who gave evidence before the Committee with closed doors had a right to complain that the document which embodied that evidence and the inferences drawn from it was not checked by them in order to see that the conclusions drawn were correct. In order to put himself in order he moved to reduce the Vote by £100.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £9,900, be granted for the said Service."—(Mr. Lyttelton.)


said he did not think the Committee ought to have any difficulty in agreeing to a Vote for a sum of money required to pay the expenses of the West Ridgeway Committee in South Africa, and he had some confidence that the Committee would support the Government in that respect. The right hon. Gentleman had on various occasions asked the Government to publish this Report. That Commission was sent out for the special purpose of obtaining information for the Government to enable the Government to make up its mind as to the Constitutional settlement which was afterwards to be prepared. The Committee discharged their work with great fairness, they heard a large number of witnesses, and they afforded the Government the benefit of their conclusions on the whole field of South African policy. He did not say there was not a great deal in their Report which could have been published without causing any embarrassment to any person or any party, or without disturbing the development of the South African Colonies; but the right hon. Gentleman would see that a Report upon the political situation in a country so perplexed and distracted as the Transvaal in the period of recovery from the confusion and disaster of a great war must necessarily contain many statements about persons and parties, which would be of value to the Government, but which ought not to be made public. There were in the Report statements as to the character and political objects of all the different political associations in South Africa, and he did not think the right hon. Gentleman would seriously suggest that it would be a good thing in the critical months we had been, and were now, passing through in South Africa for the Government to throw on the Table a Report which stated the naked truth about all the different politicians and political Parties who were engaged in conflict on the eve of a momentous election. He was quite sure the Committee would agree that such a Report should be strictly confined to the purpose for which it was required—namely, to enable the Government to make up its mind on this subject. He did not say the day would never come when this Report could be published; but the Cabinet had decided that it had not yet come. Perhaps, when the difficulties in South Africa had become less, and when the healing process between the races had been further advanced, the Report would possess a purely historical value, and the right hon. Gentleman would be able to peruse it, and perhaps derive from that perusal as much advantage as the Government had already obtained. The right hon. Gentleman had suggested that this was a partisan Committee—that two of the three Members were avowed partisans of the Government.


I said supporters.


Well, a supporter was, after all, a modified partisan; he was a partisan in repose. He was quite sure there never were three gentleman who started on such business with a more complete and sincere desire to arrive at the truth; and testimony to that was borne by every one who had had to do with them. The value of their work must be judged by results. The Government had been able to frame a Constitution under which elections had taken place peacefully in a land only five years ago torn by civil war, and they had good reason for believing that the work begun on the basis of this Report would produce lasting benefit in South Africa. The present was not a Government which indulged in reckless expenditure on South Africa or in any other direction. It was their earnest desire to be prudent and thrifty in everything, and that no money should be needlessly spent on South Africa; because a great deal of money had been spent recklessly on interferences, not always very successful, in South Africa. He ventured to think that of all the immense sums of money contributed by this country in furtherance of South African policy no item could be more easily defended, or more completely deserved the unhesitating support of the House, than this small sum for a Committee which had laid the broad foundations for building up the unity and peace of South Africa.


said that before he dealt with the question of the South African Constitution Commission which was the pièce de resistance of this Estimate, he would like to know about the Metropolitan Police Commission, and when it was likely to conclude its labours and make its Report. He saw by the papers that it had held many sittings and had examined a great number of witnesses; and those interested were very anxious to know when the Commission would be able to issue its final Report. On the other question, it had been said truly that it would be unreasonable to publish the evidence given before the South African Committee, because a great many things had been said by the witnesses that ought not to be published. He agreed that the holding of the Committee with closed doors was in many ways perfectly right, because in the state of politics in the Transvaal it was not likely that the witnesses would have been able to remain unbiassed before the Committee if their evidence had been given in public, especially when responsible Government was to be given to the Colony. But he could not see why a summary of the evidence should not have been published. He, for one, protested against the House and the country being asked to authorise the expenditure of money on a Committee, when they were not suffered to see the result. Supporters of the Government when in Opposition said that the House of Commons had no control over expenditure, and that when they got into power they would curtail expenditure. They were now asked to spend £4,000 on this Committee, and not only had they been deprived of the benefit of the Report when they were discussing the question of the Transvaal Constitution, but they had also no guarantee that they would ever see it. In fact, they were told by the Prime Minister when the question was put to him that they were not to have the Report in discussing the Transvaal Constitution. On the 8th March last year,†the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Central Sheffield asked the First Lord of the Treasury the following Question— If, before any decision is arrived at regarding the future administration of the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies, he will yield, as suggested, to the wish expressed by the High Commissioner on behalf of His †See (4) Debates, cliii., 650. Majesty's loyal subjects, and appoint an impartial Royal Commission to report on various important matters connected with the problem and the future peace and prosperity of the Colonies concerned? What was the answer of the Prime Minister? I cannot accept as accurate all the statements implied in this Question, and I do not quite understand what is meant by the future administration of the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies; nor do I know who are included in the phrase "His Majesty's loyal subjects." But putting these embroideries aside, as a matter of fact it is intended to send out a Committee to report on the actual results likely to he created by various proposals for the basis of a new Constitution, especially as affected by the numbers, distribution, and social condition of the population. From the last sentence, it would be seen that it was not only, as the Under-Secretary seemed to think, to be a Report on the various political parties, their views and aspirations, but the Committee were to find out how the constituencies should be arranged, and what numbers of both races there were. The Under-Secretary had said that the Report could not be published because so much had been said about the aims and aspirations of political parties. If that were so, then, at any rate in the eyes of the Prime Minister, the Committee had gone outside the terms of its reference. There was no mention in the Answer which the Prime Minister gave on the 8th March last, that there was any idea of keeping the Report secret, and they had certainly imagined that the Report would be published. On 25th June, the Under-Secretary for the Colonies said the Report might be expected to be in the hands of the Government about, the middle of July. When the Report was presented to the Government on the 23rd July, the right hon. Member for St. George's, Hanover Square, asked the Prime Minister whether he proposed to lay the Report of the Ridgeway Committee on the Table. The Prime Minister replied that the Report was necessarily confidential and for the information of the Government. Apparently, between March and July the Government had discovered

that the Report must necessarily be of a confidential kind. Was it that they had found the conclusions of the Committee not to be such as they wished them to be in regard to their plan for the new Constitution in the Transvaal? The hon. Member for St. George's, Hanover Square, asked the Prime Minister whether the expenses of the Committee were not public expenses, whether the Committee was not appointed in the first instance to furnish information which the Government said they were deplorably lacking, and, whether he considered it fair, as the Committee sat with closed doors, to withhold from this House information before the debate took place on the Constitution of the Transvaal. That question summed up their feelings with regard to this matter. And then there was the remark of Lord Lansdowne, in the debate of the 31st July last. Lord Lansdowne said he had heard the rumour so persistently and freely circulated that he could not help mentioning it, that the Report of the Ridgeway Committee had only been signed on that day, the 31st July, the day on which the Government asked both Houses of Parliament to agree to the Constitution. Lord Lansdowne carefully guarded himself against saying that it was a fact. But what to his mind made the rumour very likely to be the fact was that Lord Ripon, when he answered Lord Lansdowne, did not say a word about it, and, therefore, his silence gave consent. If that were so, what an extraordinary state of things arose. The Government had apparently made up their minds before they saw the Report as to the Constitution they were going to give to the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies.

MR. Lloyd-George

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 237; Noes. 48. (Division List No. 25.)

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Armitage, R. Barker, John
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Astbury, John Meir Barlow, Percy (Bedford)
Agnew, George William Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Barnard, E.B.
Alden, Percy Baker, J. A. (Finsbury, E.) Barry, E. (Cork, S.)
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Beale, W. P.
Beauchamp, E. Halpin, J. O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.)
Beck, A. Cecil Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Bell, Richard Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, NE O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)
Bellairs, Carlyon, Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets S. Geo. Haworth, Arthur A. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Berridge, T. H. D. Hayden, John Patrick O'Dowd, John
Bethell, Sir JH. (Essex, Romf'rd) Hazel, Dr. A. E. O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)
Billson, Alfred Hedges, A. Paget O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Black, Arthur W. Henderson, JM (Aberdeen, W.) Partington, Oswald
Boulton, A. C. F. Henry, Charles S. Paul, Herbert
Brace, William Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S. Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)
Bramsdon, T. A. Higham, John Sharp Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Brigg, John Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Brocklehurst, W. B. Hogan, Michael Pirie, Duncan V.
Brooke, Stopford Holden, E. Hopkinson. Pollard, Dr.
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Holland, Sir William Henry Power, Patrick Joseph
Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir JT (Cheshire Hooper, A. G. Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central
Bryce, J. Annan Idris, T. H. W. Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
Burke, E. Haviland- Jenkins, J. Rainy, A. Rolland
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Johnson, John (Gateshead) Raphael, Herb. H.
Byles, William Pollard Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Reddy, M.
Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight Jones, Sir D. B. (Swansea) Redmond, J. E. (Waterford)
Cawley, Sir Frederick Jones, Leif (Appleby) Rees, J. D.
Cheetham, John Frederick Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Rendall, Athelstan
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Joyce, Michael Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th)
Clarke, C. Goddard Kearley, Hudson E. Richardson, A.
Clough, William Kennedy, Vincent Paul Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Kilbride, Denis Robertson, Sir G Scott (Bradf'rd
Collins, Sir W. J. (S. Pancras, W Kincaid-Smith, Captain Robinson, S.
Corbett, C. H (Sussex, EGrinst'd King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Laidlaw, Robert Rowlands, J.
Cowan, W. H. Lamb, Enmund G, (Leominster Runciman, Walte
Cremer, William Randal Lamb, Ernest H (Rochester) Rutherford, V.H. (Brentford)
Crombie, John William Lambert, George Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland)
Crossley, William J. Lehmann, R. C. Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Cullinan, J. Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) Scott, A. H (Ashton under Lyne)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Lewis, John Herbert Seely, Major J. B.
Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Lloyd-George, Rt. Hn. David Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick, B.)
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lough, Thomas Sherwell, Arthur James
Delany, William Lundon, W. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Dewar, A. (Edinburgh, S.) Lupton, Arnold Simon, John Allsebrook
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Dillon, John Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Dobson, Thomas W. Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs Smyth, Thos. F. (Leitrim, S.)
Dolan, Charles Joseph Maclean, Donald Snowdon, P.
Donelan, Captain A. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Soares, Ernest J.
Duckworth, James MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Duffy, William J. MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.) Strachey, Sir Edward
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) M'Callum, John M. Sullivan, Donal
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) M'Crae, George Summerbell, T.
Elibank, Master of M'Kean, John Taylor, J. W. (Durham)
Erskine, David C. M'Killop, W. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Evans, Samuel T. M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Thompson, J W H (Somerset, E.
Eve, Harry Trelawney Maddison, Frederick Toulmin, George
Everett, R. Lacey Manfield, Harry (Northants) Verney, F. W.
Faber, G. H. (Boston) Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln Wadsworth, J.
Farrell, James Patrick Markham, Arthur Basil Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Fenwick, Charles Marks, G. Croydon (Launcest'n Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Ferens, T. R. Massie, J. Walters, John Tudor
Ffrench, Peter Masterman, C. F. G. Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Findlay, Alexander Meagher, Michael Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)
Flynn, James Christopher Menzies, Walter Waring, Walter
Foster, Rt. Hn. Sir Walter Micklem, Nathaniel Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Fuller, John Michael F. Molteno, Percy Alport Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Fullerton, Hugh Mond, A. Watt, H. Anderson
Gibb, James (Harrow) Montagu, E. S. Weir, James Galloway
Ginnell, L. Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John Murphy, John Whitehead, Rowland
Glendinning, R. G. Myer, Horatio Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Nolan, Joseph Wiles, Thomas
Gulland, John W. Norton, Capt. Cecil William Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Nuttall, Harry
Williams, L. (Carmarthen) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Wills, Arthur Walters Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) Young, Samuel
Ashley, W. W. Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Banbury, Sir Fredk. George Faber, George Denison (York) Salter, Arthur Clavell
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Fell, Arthur Starkey, John R.
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh H. Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey Stone, Sir Benjamin
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Boyle, Sir Edward Hamilton, Marquess of Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. Thomson, W. Mitehell-(Lanark
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Hay, Hon. Claude George Walker, Col. W.H. (Lancashire
Carlile, E. Hildred Heaton, John Henniker Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Castlereagh, Viscount Helmsley, Viscount Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.
Cave, George Hills, J. W. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Houston, Robert Paterson Younger, George
Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. Hunt, Rowland
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Forster.
Courthope, G. Loyd Magnus, Sir Philip
Craig, Captain Jas. (Down, E.) Middlemore, J. Throgmorton
Craik, Sir Henry Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- Rawlinson, John F. Peel

Question put accordingly, "That a sum, not exceeding £9,900, be granted for the said service."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 45; Noes, 238. (Division List No.26.)

Acland-Hood, Rt. H Sir Alex, F. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Duncan, Robert (Lanark,Govan Salter, Arthur Clavell
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. Faber, George Denison (York) Starkey, John R.
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks Fell, Arthur Stone, Sir Benjamin
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Boyle, Sir Edward Forster, Henry William Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Walker,Col. W.H. (Lancashire)
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Carlile, E. Hildred Hay, Hon. Claude George Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Castlereagh, Viscount Heaton, John Henniker Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Cave, George Hills, J. W. Younger, George
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E. Houston, Robert Paterson
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hunt, Rowland TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Viscount Helmsley and Mr. Ashley.
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)
Courthope, G. Loyd Magnus, Sir Philip
Craig,Captain James (Down, E. Middlemore, John Throgmorton
Craik, Sir Henry Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Abraham.William (Cork, N. E.) Berridge, T. H. D. Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, R'mf'd Clarke, C. Goddard
Agnew, George William Billson, Alfred Clough, William
Alden, Percy Black, Arthur W. Clynes, J. R.
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Boulton, A. C. F. Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)
Armitage, R. Brace, William Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd
Astbury, John Meir Bramsdon, T. A. Cotton, Sir H. J. S.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Brigg, John Cowan, W. H.
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E. Brocklehurst, W. B. Cremer, William Randal
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Brooke, Stopford Crombie, John William
Barker, John Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Crossley, William J.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J T (Cheshire Cullinan, J.
Barnard, E. B. Bryce, J. Annan Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Burke, E. Haviland- Davies, Timothy (Fulham)
Beale, W. P. Burnyeat, W. J. D. Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)
Beauchamp, E. Byles, William Pollard Delany, William
Beck, A. Cecil Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)
Bell, Richard Cawley, Sir Frederick Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Bellairs, Carlyon Chance, Frederick William Dillon, John
Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo. Cheetham, John Frederick Dobson, Thomas W.
Dolan, Charles Joseph Laidlaw, Robert Raphael, Herbert H.
Donelan, Captain A. Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster Reddy, M.
Duckworth, James Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Duffy, William J. Lehmann, R. C. Rees, J. D.
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) Rendall, Athelstan
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Lewis, John Herbert Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th
Elibank, Master of Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Richardson, A.
Erskine, David C. Lough, Thomas Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Evans, Samuel T. Lundon, W. Robertson, Sir G Scott (Br'df'ord
Eve, Harry Trelawney Lupton, Arnold Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Everett, R. Lacey Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne
Faber, G. H. (Boston) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Seely, Major J. B.
Farrell, James Patrick Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.
Fenwick, Charles Maclean, Donald Sherwell, Arthur James
Ferens, T. R. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Ffrench, Peter MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. Simon, John Allsebrook
Findlay, Alexander MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E. Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Flynn, James Christopher M'Callum, John M. Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter M'Crae, George Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.
Fuller, John Michael F. M'Kean, John Snowdon, P.
Fullerton, Hugh M'Killop, W. Soares, Ernest J.
Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S. M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Gibb, James (Harrow) Maddison, Frederick Strachey, Sir Edward
Ginnell, L. Manfield, Harry (Northants) Sullivan, Donal
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln Summerbell, T.
Glendinning, R. G. Markham, Arthur Basil Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Greenwood, Hamar (York) Massie, J. Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Gulland, John W. Meagher, Michael Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Menzies, Walter Toulmin, George
Halpin, J. Micklem, Nathaniel Verney, F. W.
Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) Molteno, Perey Alport Wadsworth, J.
Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E. Mond, A. Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Montagu, E. S. Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Haworth, Arthur A. Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Walters, John Tudor
Hayden, John Patrick Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Hazel, Dr. A. E. Murphy, John Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)
Hedges, A. Paget Myer, Horatio Waring, Walter
Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) Nolan, Joseph Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Henry, Charles S. Norton, Capt. Cecil William Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.) Nuttall, Harry Watt, H. Anderson
Higham, John Sharp O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid Weir, James Galloway
Hobhouse, Charles E. H. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Hogan, Michael O'Connor,James (Wicklow, W. Whitehead, Rowland
Holden, E. Hopkinson O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Holland, Sir William Henry O'Dowd, John Wiles, Thomas
Hooper, A. G. O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Idris, T. H. W. O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n
Jenkins, J. Partington, Oswald Wills, Arthur Walters
Johnson, John (Gateshead) Paul, Herbert Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Jones, Leif (Appleby) Pickersgill, Edward Hare Young, Samuel
Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. Pirie, Duncan V.
Joyce, Michael Pollard, Dr. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Kearley, Hudson E. Power, Patrick Joseph
Kennedy, Vincent Paul Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)
Kilbride, Denis Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Rainy, A. Rolland

Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE claimed, "That the original Question be now put."

Original Question put accordingly.

LORD R. CECIL (Marylebone, E.)—

speaking, according to custom, seated and with his hat on—said that as it was a fundamental principle of the Constitution that before money was granted Members had the right to raise any question in order on the grant, he desired to know what opportunity they would have for discussing the Poor Law Commission, part of the expenses of which was included in the Vote?


The question of the noble Lord is not really a point of order at all. The closure is a matter in my discretion.


asked whether the question of the noble Lord was not a question of privilege, and therefore one that ought to be answered.


Under the system of Supply in this House many questions are from time to time put without discussion.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 236; Noes, 43. (Division List No. 27.)

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Donelan, Captain A. Lambert, George
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Duckworth, James Lehmann, R. C.
Agnew, George William Duffy, William J. Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)
Alden, Percy Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Lewis, John Herbert
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
Armitage, R. Elibank, Master of Lough, Thomas
Astbury, John Meir Erskine, David C. Lundon, W.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Evans, Samuel T. Lupton, Arnold
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Eve, Harry Trelawney Luttrell, Hugh Fownes
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Everett, R. Lacey Macdonald, J. R, (Leicester)
Barker, John Faber, G. H. (Boston) Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Farrell, James Patrick Maclean, Donald
Barnard, E. B. Fenwick, Charles Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Ferens, T. R. MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.
Beale, W. P. Ffrench, Peter MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)
Beauchamp, E. Findlay, Alexander M'Callum, John M.
Beck, A. Cecil Flynn, James Christopher M'Crae, George
Bell, Richard Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter M'Kean, John
Bellairs, Carlyon Fuller, John Michael F. M'Killop, W.
Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo. Fullerton, Hugh M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)
Berridge, T. H. D. Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S. Maddison, Frederick
Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd Gibb, James (Harrow) Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Billson, Alfred Ginnell, L. Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)
Black, Arthur W. Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Markham, Arthur Basil
Boulton, A. C. F. Glendinning, R. G. Marks, G. Croydon (Launcest'n)
Brace, William Goddard, Daniel Ford Massie, J.
Bramsdon, T. A. Greenwood, Hamar (York) Meagher, Michael
Brigg, John Gulland, John W. Menzies, Walter
Brocklehurst, W. B. Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Micklem, Nathaniel
Brooke, Stopford Halpin, J. Molteno, Percy Alport
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) Mond, A.
Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. (Chesh'e Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E. Montagu, E. S.
Bryce, J. Annan Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Burke, E. Haviland- Haworth, Arthur A. Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Hayden, John Patrick Murphy, John
Byles, William Pollard Hazel, Dr. A. E. Myer, Horatio
Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight Hedges, A. Paget Nolan, Joseph
Cawley, Sir Frederick Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W) Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Chance, Frederick William Henry, Charles S. Nuttall, Harry
Cheetham, John Frederick Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.) O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Higham, John Sharp O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Clarke, C. Goddard Hobhouse, Charles E. H. O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)
Clough, William Hogan, Michael O'Connor, John Kildare, N.)
Clynes, J. R. Holden, E. Hopkinson O'Dowd, John
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Holland, Sir William Henry O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.
Corbett, C. H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd Hooper, A. G. O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Idris. T. H. W. Paul, Herbert
Cowan, W. H. Jenkins, J. Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)
Cremer, William Randal Johnson, John (Gateshead) Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Crombie, John William Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Crossley, William J. Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea Pirie, Duncan V.
Cullinan, J. Jones, Leif (Appleby) Pollard, Dr.
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Jones, William (Carnarvonsh'e Power, Patrick Joseph
Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Joyce, Michael Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Kearley, Hudson E. Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
Delany, William Kennedy, Vincent Paul Rainy, A. Rolland
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S. Kilbride, Denis Raphael, Herbert H.
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Reddy, M.
Dillon, John Laidlaw, Robert Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Dobson, Thomas W. Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominst'r Rees, J. D.
Dolan, Charles Joseph Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Rendall, Athelstan
Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S. Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Richardson, A. Snowden, P. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Soares, Ernest J. Watt, H. Anderson
Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'd Stewart, Halley (Greenock) Weir, James Galloway
Robinson, S. Strachey, Sir Edward White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Robson, Sir William Snowdon Sullivan, Donal Whitehead, Rowland
Rowlands, J. Summerbell, T. Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Runciman, Walter Taylor, John W. (Durham) Wiles, Thomas
Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n
Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E Wills, Arthur Walters
Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne Toulmin, George Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Seely, Major J. B. Wadsworth, J. Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.) Waldron, Laurence Ambrose Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Sherwell, Arthur James Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) Young, Samuel
Shipman, Dr. John G. Walters, John Tudor
Simon, John Allsebrook Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent
Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Waring, Walter
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F. Craik, Sir Henry Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Ashley, W. W. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Gov'n Salter, Arthur Clavell
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. Faber, G. H. (Boston) Starkey, John R.
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks Fell, Arthur Stone, Sir Benjamin
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Boyle, Sir Edward Forster, Henry William Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Hay, Hon. Claude George Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Carlile, E. Hildred Heaton, John Henniker Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Castlereagh, Viscount Helmsley, Viscount Younger, George
Cave, George Hills, J. W.
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Houston, Robert Paterson TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Lord R. Cecil and Mr. George Gibbs.
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Hunt, Rowland
Courthope, G. Loyd Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

And, it being after a quarter past Eight of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

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