HC Deb 24 April 1907 vol 173 cc64-8
MR. HAYDEN (Roscommon, S.)

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he can state the maximum amount not bearing interest to the credit of the Irish Land Purchase Fund in the Bank of England at any time since the account was opened; whether any amount, and, if so, the maximum, at any period has boon lying in the Bank of Ireland without interest; whether any effort has been made to procure interest from the Bank of England; and whether any negotiations have been carried on with the Irish banks as to the terms that might be procured from them for the use of this money.

MR. RUNCIMAN

The largest balances on the Land Purchase Fund Account occur when considerable sums have been paid up in respect of an issue of stock, which are not immediately required for advances and can only gradually be invested. The maximum balance to the credit of the fund in the Bank of England at any time since the account was opened was £2,385,310 on the 9th April, 1904, which in great part was due to instalments being paid up under discount in respect of the first issue of guaranteed 2 ¾ per cent. Stock. Of this sum £1,500,000 was invested by the 15th April. The balance at the Bank of Ireland, except to meet the weekly advance to the Irish Land Commissioners, seldom exceeds £1,000. The balances on the accounts of the Commissioners, whether in the Bank of England or in the Bank of Ireland, do not bear interest. No attempt has been made to obtain from the Bank of England an allowance of interest on the balance of this account, as it would be contrary to the rules of the bank. The balance is invested as closely as possible in securities according to Section 34 (2) of the Act. No negotiations such as the hon. Member suggests have been carried on with the Irish Joint Stock Banks.

MR. HAYDEN

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the banks in Ireland allow the county councils interest upon the credit balances of the current accounts, and will he consider the desirability of directing the attention of the National Debt Commissioners to the system of finance adopted by the county councils in Ireland with the view of having it adopted in this country?

MR. RUNCIMAN

I am quite aware of that. The question of which bank should be dealt with is a very much larger question.

CAPTAIN CRAIG

May I ask is it necessary at all to have a single penny lying in any bank? There are £30,000,000 worth of estates waiting to be dealt with.

MR. RUNCIMAN

Yes, but it must be remembered that you cannot work a large account of this kind without having a balance in the bank to carry on transactions.

CAPTAIN CRAIG

Is it not a fact that for three or four months past £30,000,000 of estates has been in the hands of the Estates Commissioners, and might the hon. Gentleman not discover by consultation with the Chief Secretary whether there is any necessity to have any balance at all lying in the bank?

[No Answer was returned.]

MR. J. MACVEAGH

I would like to ask whether, if the Bank of Ireland allows interest on a current account, why so large an amount was left in the Bank of England?

MR. RUNCIMAN

The hon. Member wishes to know why we did not hold a large balance at the Bank of Ireland. It was due to representations which were made to us from Ireland, and very largely from the benches opposite.

MR. JOHN REDMOND

Will the hon. Gentleman explain that Answer? Those representations were a complaint that the Government were dealing solely with the Bank of Ireland, and no other Irish banks. Was there any representation made to use the Bank of England against the Bank of Ireland or any other bank?

MR. RUNCIMAN

The hon. Gentleman will understand that the question was only with reference to the Bank of Ireland.

MR. J. MACVEAGH

The hon. Gentleman's reply was that representations were made from these benches in favour of the account being kept in the Bank of England. There is not a shadow of foundation for that statement.

MR. RUNCIMAN

I said that representations were made about the account being kept in the Bank of Ireland.

MR. LONSDALE

In view of the misunderstanding that seems to exist in the mind of the hon. Gentleman, will he have the amount lying to credit in the Bank of England removed to the Bank of Ireland?

MR. RUNCIMAN

No. There is no misunderstanding in my mind, and no inference may be drawn from the same.

Later:

MR. JOHN REDMOND

On Monday last, when a number of Questions were asked about the breakdown of the financial system of the Land Act, 1903, I asked the Prime Minister whether he would afford us an opportunity for a discussion of the matter, the importance of which he and the House generally quite realised. The right hon. Gentleman was good enough to say that it was a proper matter to be discussed, and suggested that we might discuss it on an Irish Vote I wish to ask him whether he is aware that the authorities of the House whom I have consulted, say that i would be quite out of order to have such a discussion as we contemplated on any of the Votes, whether English or Irish; and whether, in view of this situation and in view of the urgency of the question—for until we have that discussion we cannot properly discuss Irish legislation which has gone upstairs— he can see his way to promise an opportunity for discussing the matter.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNEKMAN,) Stirling Burghs

I understand that it is as the hon. Member has said, and that what I suggested the other day cannot be done. I have only heard of it, and have not had time to consider what alternative proposal I can make, but we will at once look into the matter and meet the hon. Member's wishes as far as possible.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR (City of London)

May I ask whether any arrangements can be made to prevent the discussion of the Bill which has gone upstairs beginning until we have had a discussion on the matter which has arisen?

MR. JOHN REDMOND

This has come to me quite without notice. At first blush the suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman seems reasonable. I understand he suggests that the discussion on the Irish Land Bill in Committee might be prejudiced by the fact that this great question had not been discussed. I confess I agree with that. I do not see how it is possible for us to have a satisfactory discussion in Grand Committee of the proposed Irish Land legislation until we have discussed the new grant question which has arisen. 1 therefore view with approval the suggestion of the Loader of the Opposition.

SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

That is an element in the case which will be considered and looked into.