HC Deb 31 October 1906 vol 163 cc1139-220

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]

Clause 5:—

*MR. COURTHOPE(Sussex, Eye) moved an Amendment to secure that the qualification of a person who has exercised his option in favour of a Scottish constituency should not take effect till 1st January. He pointed out that the clause provided that the Secretary for Scotland might issue instructions for any purpose for which an Order in Council might be made under the Act and might also issue any instructions which were rendered necessary by the fact that the currency of the Parliamentary register in Scotland did not coincide with the calendar year, including instructions for prescribing some special manner in which the name of a person was to be marked on the register "whose notice of selection does" not take effect till the 1st day of January succeeding the day on which the register comes into force or whose notice of selection "ceases to operate" on the 31st day of December. His Amendment, he explained, was to leave out the words "whose notice of selection does," in order to insert the words "so that his qualification shall;" the Secretary for Scotland would under the clause have two alternatives before him. He could either ante date by two months the date on which the notice of selection takes effect, or he could post date by two months the date on which the new register came into force. Speaking as an English Member —he could hardly hope that Scottish Members would agree with him—he could not see that it was right, nor believed that it was the intention of His Majesty's Government that Scotland should get the advantage of two months in regard to this question. That was his reason for moving the Amendment. If the Secretary for Scotland did not accept the Amendment he hoped he would explain what course he intended to take. He should like also to point out to the Lord-Advocate that the Government, by accepting this Amendment, would obviate the unpleasant contingencies to which he so humorously alluded the night before. There would be no question of a man crossing the Border one way and losing two months, or the other way and gaining two months, and his qualification would take effect on the 1st January in all portions of the United Kingdom, as well as his notice of selection, as was laid down by Clause 1, sub-section (1) of this Bill. His Amendment would ensure absolute equality and fairness to all classes of voters in all parts of the country. No other course could be adopted except to ante date or post date the time when the provision came into effect. That would be unfair in one case or the other to those electors who resided north or south of the Tweed.

Amendment proposed— In page 3, lines 17 and 18, to leave out the words 'whose notice of selection does, in order to insert the words 'so that his qualification shall.'"—(Mr. Courthope.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

THE LORD-ADVOCATE (Mr. THOMAS SHAW,) Hawick Burghs

said the words suggested by the Amendment would have very little effect or importance, and would make no difference whatever. The words that the Government had chosen would completely cover the case of the current year, which in Scotland was divided into two portions of ten months and two months. The case had been covered by the notice of selection not taking effect till January.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR (City of London)

said the Committee as a whole was not in a very good position to judge of this matter, and it was only Scottish Members who would be greatly interested in it. He thought they would be much better off if the right hon. and learned Gentleman would tell them what his proposal was as to the day of selection or registration, or what was the proposed position of the Scottish plural voter, or the voter who had a qualification in Scotland as well as in England after the Bill became law. They know precisely what the position of the plural voter would be in England, when the notice would be given, and when the register would come into force. They had no such accurate knowledge in regard to Scotland, but the Government, no doubt. knew what were the regulations which the Secretary for Scotland was going to introduce. The Government must also know how they intended to deal with the technical difficulty which would arise owing to the face that the register would not come into operation on the same day in the two countries, as it would come into operation in England on the 1st January, and in Scotland on 1st November.

MR. THOMAS SHAW

did not think that the right hon. Gentleman had substantially challenged, wholly or in part, what he had said. The explanation which he had given was a reasonable one, namely, that in Clause 1 of the Bill, now passed, the currency of the vote on the register was for a calendar year. They must take the facts as they found them. These were that the Scottish registers ran from November to November, and, accordingly, when a selection was made that selection would come into operation during the current year, that is, on 1st. January Where there was an English qualification for the year that must be fixed by the currency of the register from January to January. If the selection was made in Scotland it must be made from January to November, and if in England, from January to January. If, however, the Scottish register were properly marked, the selection of the registered voters would be made to qualify for the extra two months, so that he would suffer no disfranchisement as compared with his English selection.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said he wished to understand the right hon. Gentleman. Let them take the case of Mr. A., who was entitled to a vote in Scotland and in England also. When 6th September came he made his selection in regard to his Scottish qualification. Was he qualified to vote in England from November till the following January if he wished to do so? Would he have to wait till the 1st January before he could get a vote in England?

*MR. THOMAS SHAW

said the question made the point very clear. He had no vote in England until the disqualification imposed by his selection of a vote in Scotland had disappeared from the current register. If in September he had exercised his option in favour of Scotland it remained for the current year and was continued for the balance of the year, viz., two months up to the 1st January.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

inquired where, supposing an election took place in November, an elector who had made a selection would vote.

*MR. THOMAS SHAW

said he could also answer that. Supposing an election came in November, if a voter had exercised an option to vote in Scotland, he would not in the interval be able to vote in England. He would still have to vote in Scotland. They could not have the Scottish option deprived of its effect until the time when the English rights accrued, viz., 1st January.

MR MITCHELL-THOMSON (Lanarkshire, N, W.)

said that while they were very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for the explanations which he had made, he had listened to his remarks with amazement, because now for the first time they had some indication of what the Government proposed to do. They were proposing to give to the Secretary for Scotland power to make an order which, so far as the plural voter in Scotland was concerned, would change the currency of the register. The Secretary for Scotland was, it appeared, to be empowered to say to the plural voter, "For you the currency of the register shall no longer be the 1st of November till the 1st November, but the 1st January till the 1st January." [Cries of "No."] Surely that was the practical effect of the right hon. Gentleman's proposal, but he and other Scottish Members were opposed to any change of the register in Scotland. He should, therefore, be inclined to vote against the Amendment of his hon. friend because it proposed such a change. The Government were not only going to give the Secretary for Scotland power to modify one Act of Parliament, but two. The First Commissioner of Works had never given them any hint of this at all, although he had said there would be some difficulty in dealing with Scotland. This was the first intimation they had had that the Secretary for Scotland was to be entrusted with these powers, which were not to be executed by any Order in Council.

SIR. F. BANBURY (City of London)

said he understood the position was that there would be no change for the ordinary Scottish voters. Supposing a man had two or three qualifications, there would be no change and the register would go from the 1st November to 1st November as it did now. If a man had a qualification in England and Scotland the register would be changed, and if he exercised his selection in Scotland the Secretary for Scotland would come in and say there should be another register. In Scotland there would be two registers, one prepared by the body which performed the duties of the overseers and another prepared by the Secretary for Scotland, This was the first time in the history of the country that a man's qualifications on the register would be settled not by the overseers but by an official. It would be very confusing, because the voter would have to search two registers. Where would the second register be kept? Of all the absurdities which had been introduced into the Bill this was the greatest. Some Scottish Members opposite yesterday had the courage to defend their country, and he hoped they would go a little further to-day and save Scotland from being placed in this extremely anomalous position.

*MR. THOMAS SHAW

said this Order was simply intended to fill up the gap which would otherwise be a disfranchising gap for a few months.

VISCOUNT TURNOUR (Sussex, Horsham)

thought there was still time for the Government to put something into the Bill in regard to what they proposed to do. The Lord-Advocate had said that this was not a franchise Bill, and he had also stated that it was impossible to make any alteration in the Registration Laws of Scotland under this measure. In his opinion this was very largely a franchise Bill, or at any rate it was a disfranchising Bill, because it affected the votes of a great many people. The matter was sufficiently important for some definite step to be taken by the Government to get over the difficulty. He appealed to the Lord-Advocate to deal with the matter before they proceeded any further with the discussion of the clause. [MINISTERIAL laughter.] Hon Members opposite laughed, but their laughter was very largely the laughter of ignorance and all they were able to do was to vote and laugh. He trusted that the Lord-Advocate would consider the suggestion he had made and take some steps to get over this undoubted and real difficulty.

MR. LAMBTON (Durham, S.E.)

asked what would happen in case a man with two qualifications, one for England and another for Scotland, changed his mind and desired to vote in Scotland?

*MR. THOMAS SHAW

said that the claim would be made in September and he would go on the register in November, but a mark would be placed against the name to show that he was disqualified during the period he was an English voter.

MR. MITCHELL-THOMPSON

said this was a most complicated arrangement. Personally he had never denied that there was a great difficulty to be faced in this matter, and he thought that in some respects the Government proposal got over the difficulty. He wished to know, however, whether the Lord-Advocate proposed to get over the difficulty by allowing the Secretary for Scotland on his own initiative to modify two Acts of Parliament. That was a method of procedure to which be would never consent.

*MR. THOMAS SHAW

said this clause was drawn to enable orders to be written out in such a way that there would be no disfranchisement on the one hand and that, on the other hand, all the Scottish voters would be in the position that they would be deprived of the plural voting privilege which at present existed. There was no desire or intention to go beyond the provisions of the existing Act of Parliament.

MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD (Liverpool, West Derby)

rose to speak.

MR. THOMAS SHAW

rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 325; Noes, 85. (Division List, No. 355.)

AYES.
Acland, Francis Dyke Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Jacoby, James Alfred
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Davies, W. Howell (Bristol. S.) Jardine, Sir J.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Delany, William Jenkins, J.
Alden, Percy Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S. Jones,Sir D. Brynmor(Swansea)
Ambrose, Robert Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Ashton, Thomas Gair Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Jowett, F. W.
Atherley-Jones, L. Donelan, Captain A. Kearley, Hudson E.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Duckworth, James Kekewich, Sir George
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E. Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness Kelley, Georgo D.
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Barker, John Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Kincaid-Smith, Captain
Barlow, John Emmott (S'm'rs't Dunne,Major E. Martin (Wals'l) King, Alfred J. (Knutsford)
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James
Beaks, W. P. Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Laidlaw, Robert
Beaumont,Hn. W.C.B. (H'x'm Edwards, Frank (Radnor) Lamb, Edmund G. (Lcominster
Beck, A. Cecil Elibank, Master of Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)
Bell, Richard Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Lambert, George
Bellairs, Carl von Erskine, David C. Lamont, Norman
Bonn, W.(T'w'rHaml'ts,S.Geo. Esmonde, Sir Thomas Langley, Batty
Bertram, Julius Everett, R. Lacey Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Billson, Alfred Faber, G. H. (Boston) Layland-Barratt, Francis
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Fenwick, Charles Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)
Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh. Ferens, T. R. Lehmann, R. C.
Boland, John Ferguson, R. C. Munro Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich
Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) Field, William Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)
Bowerman, C. W. Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Levy, Maurice
Brace, William Flynn, James Christopher Lewis, John Herbert
Brigg, John Freeman-Thomas, Freeman Lough, Thomas
Bright, J. A. Fuller, John Michael F. Lundon, W.
Brocklehurst, W. B. Fullerton, Hugh Lupton, Arnold
Brooke, Stopford Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S. Lynch, H. B.
Brunner, J. RL.(Lanes., Leigh) Gibb, James (Harrow) Macdonald, J. M.(Falkirk B'hs.
Brunner,Rt. Hn. Sir J.T. (Ches. Gill, A. H. Mackarness, Frederic C
Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs Ginnell, L. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Buchanan, Thomas By burn Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbert John Macpherson, J. T.
Burke, E. Haviland- Glover, Thomas MacVcagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Goddard, Daniel Ford MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Gooch, George Peabody M'Callum, John M.
Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) M'Crae, George
Byles, William Pollard Gulland, John W. M'Kenna, Reginald
Cairns, Thomas Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton M'Killop, W.
Cameron, Robert Hall, Frederick M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis M'Micking, Major G.
Carr-Gomm. H. W. Hardie,J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)
Cawley, Frederick Harms worth, Cecil B. (Wore'r Massie, J.
Chance, Frederick William Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Masterman, C. F. G.
Cheetham. John Frederick Harwood, George Mengher, Michael
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Menzies. Walter
Churchill, Winston Spencer Haworth, Arthur A. Micklem, Nathaniel
Cleland, J. W. Hazel, Dr. A. E. Molteno, Percy Alport
Clough, W. Helme, Norval Watson Money, L. G. Chiozza
Clynes, J. R. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Montagu, E. S.
Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W. Henry, Charles S. Mooney, J. J.
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.) Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Cooper, G. J. Hobart, Sir Robert Motley, Rt. Hon. John
Corbett, C. H.(Sussex, E. Gr'st'd Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Morrell, Philip
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hodge, John Morse, L. L.
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Hogan, Michael Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Cowan, W. H. Holland, Sir William Henry. Murnaghan, George
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Hooper, A. Murphy, John
Cremer, William Randal Horridge, Thomas Gardner Murray, James
Crombie, John William Hudson, Walter Myer, Horatio
Crooks, William Hutton, Alfred Eddison Nannetti. Joseph P.
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Idris, T. H. W. Nicholls, George
Davies, M. Vaughau-(Cardigan) Jackson, R. S. Nolan, Joseph
Norman, Henry Robson, Sir William Snowdon Wadsworth, J.
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Roe, Sir Thomas Walker, H. De R.(Leicester)
Nussey, Thomas Willans Rogers, F. E. Newman Wallace, Robert
Nuttall, Harry Rowlands, J. Walsh, Stephen
O'Brien, K. (Tippsrary Mid.) Runciman, Walter Walters, John Tudor
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Walton. Joseph (Barnsley)
O'Doherty, Philip Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)
O'Grady, J. Schwann, Sir C E (Manchester) Wardle, George J.
O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne Warnel, Thos. Courtenay T.
O'Malley, William Sears, J. E. Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Secly, Major J. B. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Palmer, Sir Charles Mark Shackleton, David James Waterlow, D. S.
Parker, James (Halifax) Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) Watt, H. Anderson
Partington, Oswald Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick, B.) Wedgwood Josiah C.
Paul, Herbert Shipman, Dr. John G. Weir, James Galloway
Paulton, James Mellor Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Johr White, George (Norfolk)
Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Pearce, William (Limehouse) Smyth, Thos. F. (Leitrim, S.) White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampt'n Soames, Arthur Wellesley White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke Soares, Ernest J. Whit head, Rowland
Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Spicer, Sir Albert Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Pickersgill, Edward Hare Stanger, H. Y. Whittaker, J.R. Thomas Palmer
Pirie, Duncan V. Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh. Wiles, Thomas
Pollard, Dr. Steadman, W. C. Wilkie, Alexander
Price, C. E. (Edin'b'gh, Central Stewart, Halley (Greenock) Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Price, Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Strachey, Sir Edward Williams, L. (Carmarthen)
Rainy, A. Rolland Straus, is. S. (Mile End) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Raphael, Herbert H. Stuart, James (Sunderland) Wilson, Hn. C. H. W. (Hull, W.
Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Sullivan, Donal Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Summerbell, T. Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N
Redmond, William (Clare) Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Rees, J. D. Taylor, John W. (Durham) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Rendall, Athelstan Tennant,H. J. (Berwickshire) Winfrey. R.
Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th) Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.) Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Richards, F. T. (Wolverh'mptn Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) Woodhouse, SirJ. T.(Hudd'rsfd
Richardson, A. Thorne, William Young, Samuel
Ridsdale, E. A. Tomkinson, James Yoxall, James Henry
Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln) Torrance, Sir A. M.
Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Toulmin, George TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Ure, Alexander
Robinson, S. Verney, F. W.
NOES.
Anstruther-Gray, Major Faber, George Denison (York) Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Arkwright, John Stanhope Fell, Arthur M'Calmont. Colonel James
Ashley, W. W. Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Magnus, Sir Philip
Balcarres. Lord Fletcher, J. S. Marks, H. H. (Kent)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(City Lond. Forster, Henry William Meysey-Thompson, E. C.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) Mildmay, Francis Hingham
Banner. John S- Harmood- Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Morpeth, Viscount
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. Gordon, Sir W. Evans-(T'r Ham. Nicholson. Win. G. (Petersfield
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks Haddock, George R. Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hamilton, Marquess of Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington)
Bignold, Sir Arthur Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) Percy, Earl
Bowles, G. Stewart Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. Powell. Sir Francis Sharp
Bull, Sir William James Hay, Hon. Claude George Randies, Sir John Scurrah
Carlile, E. Hildred Heaton, John Henniker Ratcliff, Major R F.
Castlereagh, Viscount Helmsley, Viscount Rawlinson, John Fredk. Peel
Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W. Hill, Sir C. (Shrewsbury) Remnant, James Farquharson
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hunt, Rowland Roberts, S. (Sheffield Ecclesall
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A(Wore. Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Keswick, William Rutherford. W. W. (Liverpool)
Cellngs, Rt. Hn.J (Birmingh'm Kimber, Sir Henry Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.) Lane-Fox, G. R. Sloan, Thomas Henry
Craig, Captain J. (Down, E.) Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Starkey, John R
Dalrymple, Viscount Doughty, Sir George Liddell, Henry Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lonsdale, John Brownlee Stone, Sir Benjamin
Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.
Turnour, Viscount Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire Younger, George

Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

The House divided:—Ayes, 337; Noes, 89. (Division List No.356.)

AYES.
Acland, Francis Dyke Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Haslam, James (Derbyshire
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Cotton. Sir H. J. S. Haworth, Arthur A.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Cowan, W. H. Hazel, Dr. A. E.
Alden, Percy Craig, Herb. J. (Tynemouth) Helms, Norval Watson
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Cremer, William Randal Henderson, Arthur (Durham
Ambrose, Robert Crumble. John William Henry, Charles S.
Ashton, Thomas Gair Crooks, William Herbert. Colonel Ivor(Mon.S.
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry. Dalmeny, Lord Hobart, Sir Robert
Atherley-Jones, L. Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) Hodge, John
Baker. J. A. (Finsbury, E.) Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Hogan, Michael
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Holland, Sir William Henry
Barker, John Delany, William Hooper, A. G.
Barker, John E. (Somerset) Dewar Arthur(Edinburgh, S.) Horniman, Emslie John
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.) Horridge, Thomas (Gardner
Beale, W. P. Dickinson, W. H.(St. Pancras, W. Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Beauchamp, E. Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Hudson. Walter
Beaumont, Hn W.C. B. (Hexham Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Hutton, Alfred Eddison
Beck, A. Cecil Donelan, Captain A. Idris, T. H. W.
Bell, Richard Duckworth, James Jackson, R. S.
Bellairs, Carlyon Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness) Jacoby, James Alfred
Benn, W.(T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Jardine, Sir J.
Bertram, Julius Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Jenkins, J.
Billson, Alfred Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall Jones, Sir D. Brynmor(Swansea
Black, A. W. (Bedfordshire) Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Boland, John Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Jones, William(Carnarvonshire
Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) Edwards, Frank (Radnor) Jowett, F. W.
Bowerman, C. W. Elibank, Master of Joyce, Michael
Brace, William Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Kearley, Hudson E.
Brigg, John Erskine, David C. Kekewich, Sir George
Bright, J. A. Esmonde Sir Thomas Kelley, George D.
Brocklehurst, W. B. Everett, R. Lacey Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Brooke, Stopford Faber, G. H. (Boston) Kincaid-Smith, Captain
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh Fenwick, Charles King, Alfred John (Knutsfor
Brunner, Rt. Hn. SirJT(Cheshire Ferguson. R. C. Munro Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James
Bryce J. A. (Inverness Burghs) Field, William Laidlaw, Robert
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster
Burke, E. Haviland- Flynn, James Christopher Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Freeman-Thomas, Freeman Lambert, George
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Fuller, John Michael F. Lamont, Norman
Byles, William Pollard Fullerton, Hugh Langley, Batty
Cairns, Thomas Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford,S.) Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Cameron, Robert Gibb, James (Harrow) Layland-Barratt, Francis
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Gill, A. H. Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Ginnell, L. Lehmann, R. C.
Canston, Rt. Hn. Richard K. Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John. Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich)
Cawley, Frederick Glover, Thomas Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)
Chance, Frederick William Goddard. Daniel Ford Levy, Maurice
Cheetham, John Frederick Gooch, George Peabody Lewis, John Herbert
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Greenwood. G. (Peterborough) Lough, Thomas
Churchill, Winston Spencer Gulland, John W. Lundon, W.
Clarke, C. Goddard Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Lupton, Arnold
Cleland, J. W. Hall, Frederick Lynch, H. B.
Clough, W. Harcomt, Right Hon. Lewis Macdonald, J. M(Falkirk B'ghs)
Clynes, J. R.; Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil) Mackarness, Frederic C.
Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew. W.) Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Wore'r) Macpherson, J. T.
Cooper, G. J. Hart-Davies, T. MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E
Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, E. Grinst'd Harwood, George McCallum, John M.
McCrae, George Pollard, Dr. Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
McKenna. Reginald Price, C. E.(Edinburgh, Central) Thomas, Sir A(Glamorgan, E.)
McKillop. W. Price, Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Thomas. David Alfred (Merthyr
McLaren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Rainy, A. Rolland Thorne, William
McMicking, Major G. Raphael, Herbert H. Tomkinson. James
Mallet, Charles E. Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Torrance, Sir A. M.
Manfield, Harry (Horthants) Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Toulmin, George
Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Redmond, William (Clare) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Massie, J. Rees, J.D. Ure, Alexander
Masterman, C. F. G. Rendall, Athelstan Verney, F. W.
Meagher, Michael Richards, Thos.(W. Monm'th) Wadsworth. J.
Menzies, Walter Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n) Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Micklem, Nathaniel Richardson, A. Wallance, Robert
Molteno, Percy Alport Ridsdale, E. A. Walsh, Stephen
Money, L. G. Chiozza Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Walters, John Tudor
Montagu, E. S. Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Walton, Sir. J. L. (Leeds, S.)
Mooney, J. J. Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Ward, J. (Stoke upon Trent)
Morley, Rt. Hon. John Robinson, S. Wardle, George J.
Morrell, Philip. Robson, Sir William Snowdon Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Morse, L. L. Roe, Sir Thomas Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Rogers, F. E. Newman Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
Murnaghan, George Rowlands, J. j Waterlow, D. S.
Murpby, John Runciman, Walter Watt, H. Anderson
Murray, James Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Wedgwood. Josiah C.
Myer, Horatio Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland) Weir, James Galloway
Nannetti, Joseph P. Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) White, George (Norfolk)
Napier, T. B. Schwann, Sir C. E.(Manchester) White, J.D. (Dumbartonshire)
Nicholls, George Scott, A.H(Ashton under Lyne) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Nolan, Joseph Sears, J. E. White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Seely, Major J. B. Whitehead, Rowland
Nussey, Thomas Willans Shackleton, David James Whitley. J. H. (Halifax)
Nuttall, Harry Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Whittaker. Sir Thomas Palmer
O'Brien. K. (Tipperary Mid.) Shaw, Rt. Hon. T.(Hawick, B.) Wiles, Thomas
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Shipman, Dr. John G. Wilkie, Alexander
O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
O'Doherty. Philip. Sloan, Thomas Henry Williams, Llewelyn-(Carm'rth'n
O'Grady, J. Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
O'Kelly, Jus. (Roscommon, N.) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Wilson, Hon. C.H.W. (Hull, W.)
O'Malley, William Snowden, f. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Soames, Arthur Wellesley Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.)
Palmer, Sir Charles Mark Soares, Ernest J. Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Parker, James (Halifax) Spicer, Sir Albert Wilson, W. T. (Westhonghton)
Partington, Oswald Stanger, H. Y. Winfrey, R.
Paul, Herbert Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.) Wodehouse, Lord (Norfolk, Mid)
Paulton, James Mellor Steadman, W. C. Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Stewart, Halley (Greenock) Woodhouse, SirJ.T (Hudd'rsf'd
Pearce, William (Limehouse) Strachey. Sir Edward Young, Samuel
Perks, Robert William Straus, B.S. (Mile End) Yoxall, James Henry
Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampt'n Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Philipps, Wynford (Pembroke) Sullivan, Donal TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Philipps, Owen. C. (Pembroke) Summerbell, T.
Pickersgill, Edward Hare Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Pirie, Duncan. V. Taylor, John W. (Durham)
NOES.
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. SirAlex.F. Cave, George Faber, George Denison (York)
Anstruther-Gray, Major Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W. Fell, Arthur
Arkwright. John Stanhope Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Finch. Rt. Hon. George H.
Ashley, W. W. Cham ber lain, Rt. Hn.J. A(Wore. Fletcher. J. S.
Balcarries Lord Cochrane. Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Forster. Henry William
Balfour, Rt, Hn. A.J.(CityLond.) Collings. Rt. Hn. J.(Birm'gham) Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Corbett. T. L. (Down, North) Gibbs, G. A.(Bristol, West)
Banner, John S. Harmood- Craig, CharlesCurtis(Antrim,S. Gordon. SirW. Evans(T'r Ham.
Barrie, H.T.(Londonderry, N.) Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.) Haddock. George R.
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks Craik, Sir Henry Hamilton, Marquess of
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Dalrymple, Viscount Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Aahf'rd
Bignold, Sir Arthur Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon Harrison- Broadley, Col. H. B.
Bowles, G. Stewart Doughty, Sir George Hay. Hon. Claude George
Carlile, E. Hildred Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Helmsley, Viscount
Castlereagh, Viscount Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury
Hunt, Rowland Morpeth, Viscount Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh.)
Kennaway, Rt.Hn. Sir John H. Nicholson, Wm-G. (Petersfield) Stone, Sir Benjamin
Keswick, William Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Kimber, Sir Henry Parkes, Kbenezer Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win. Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington Turnour, Viscount
Lane-Fox, G. R. Percy, Earl Valentia, Viscount
Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard
Liddell. Henry Randies, Sir John Scurrah Walker, Col. W.H.(Lancashire)
Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham) Ratcliff, Major R. F. Wilson,A. Sta ley (York.E.R.)
Lonsdale, John Brownlee Rawlinson, John FrederickPeel Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Lyttelton. Rt. Hon. Alfred Remnant, James Farquharson Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
McCalmont, Colonel James Roberts, S.(Shemeld, Ecclesall) Younger, George
Magnus, Sir Philip Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Marks, H. H. (Kent) Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Bull and Mr. Watson Rutherford.
Meysey-Thompson. E. C. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Starkey, John R.

*MR. THOMAS SHAW moved to substitute "sheriff" for the word "county" in the first line of sub-section (2) of Clause 5. He said he had investigated how the statutory provisions stood in regard to Scotland, and he found that it was the Sheriff-Clerk who ought properly to have charge of the duties involved.

Amendment proposed— In page 3, line 22, to leave out the word 'county,' und insert the word 'sheriff."—(Mr. Thomas Shaw.) Question proposed, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the clause.

MR. YOUNGER (Ayr Burghs)

said that technically no doubt the right hon. Gentleman was right in what he said, but it appeared to him that the more proper official in Scotland to whom the notice should be sent was the assessor, who was an export on the subject, besides being a much more capable official to exercise the duty, and much more likely to do it correctly. Anyone who knew anything about these assessors in Scotland knew that they were absolutely independent of anyone, and did their work admirably, and he did not think they ought to be superseded in this way.

*MR. THOMAS SHAW

said with a very large portion of the speech of the hon. Gentleman he entirely agreed, especially with regard to the functions of the assessors. He did not know any set

of public officials who performed such a useful service from one end of Scotland to the other. They saved thousands of pounds to Scotland compared with similar expense incurred in England. If the hon. Gentleman looked at the second subsection of Clause 1, he would see that the notice of selection must be sent to the clerk of the county council or town clerk who was responsible for the printing of the parliamentary register of the selected constituency. He had investigated the statutes, and he found that in England no doubt it was quite true that the clerk of the county council or the town clerk was responsible for the printing of the parliamentary register. In Scotland, however, it was not the assessor but the Sheriff-Clerk alone, who had charge of the printing of the register.

MR. YOUNGER

said it was generally the assessor who saw that it was done.

MR. THOMAS SHAW

said whether that was so or not would not at all affect the point that in an Act of Parliament they must put the responsibility upon the identical officer who had charge of the printing. He had considered this matter very carefully, and he hoped the Committee would accept his assurance that his proposal was the right one.

Question put, and negatived.

Question put, "That the word 'sheriff be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 349; Noes, 82. (Division List No. 357.)

AYES.
Acland, Francis Dyke Alden, Percy Anstrnther-Gray, Major
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Ashton, Thomas Gair
Ainsworth, John Stirling Ambrose, Robert Asquith, Rt. Hn. HerbertHenry
Atherley-Jones, L. Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N. Jowett, F. W.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Joyce, Michael
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Kearley, Hudson E.
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Donelan, Captain A. Kekewich, Sir George
Barker, John Duckworth, James Kelley. George D.
Barlow, John Emmott(Somerse Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness) Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Duncan. J. H. (York, Otley) Kincaid-Smith, Captain
Barnard, E. B. Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) King, Alfred John (Knutsford)
Beale, W. P. Dunne, Maj. E. Martin (Walsall) Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James
Beauchamp, E. Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Laidlaw, Robert
Beaumont, Hn. W.C.B(Hexham Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)
Beck, A. Cecil Edwards, Frank (Radnor) Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)
Bell, Richard Elibank, Master of Lambert, George
Bellairs, Carlyon Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Lamont, Norman
Benn, SirJ. Williams(Devonp'it Erskine, David C. Langley, Batty
Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets,S. Geo.) Esmonde, Sir Thomas Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Bertram, Julius Everett, R. Lacey Layland-Barratt, Francis
Billson, Alfred Faber, G. H. (Boston) Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington)
Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire Fenwick, Charles Lehmann, R. C.
Boland, John Ferguson, R. C. Munro Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich)
Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) Field, William Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)
Bowerman, C. W. Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Levy, Maurice
Brace, William Flynn, James Christopher Lewis, John Herbert
Brigg, John Freeman-Thomas, Freeman Lough, Thomas
Bright, J. A. Fuller, John Michael F. Lundon, W.
Brocklehurst, W. B. Fullerton, Hugh Lupton. Arnold
Brooke, Stopford Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S.) Lynch, H. B.
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh) Gibb, James (Harrow) Macdonald, J. M. (FalkirkB'ghs)
Brunner, Rt, Hn SirJ. T(Cheshire Gill, A. H. Mackarness, Frederic C.
Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs) Ginnell, L. Macnamara. Dr. Thomas J.
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herber John MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)
Buckmaster, Stanley O. Glover, Thomas MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal,E.)
Burke, E. Haviland- Goddard, Daniel Ford M'Callum, John M.
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Gooch, George Peabody M'Crae, George
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) M'Kenna, Reginald
Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles Gulland, John W. M'Killop, W.
Byles, William Pollard Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)
Cairns, Thomas Hall, Frederick M'Micking, Major C.
Cameron, Robert Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis Mallet, Charles E.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Hardie, J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil) Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)
Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r) Massie, J.
Cawley, Frederick Hart-Davies, T. Masterman, C. F. G.
Chance, Frederick William Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Meagher, Michael
Cheetham, John Frederick Harwood, George Menzies, Walter
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Micklem, Nathaniel
Churchill, Winston Spencer Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Molteno, Percy Alport
Clarke. C. Goddard Haworth, Arthur A. Money, L. (J. Chiozza
Cleland, J. W. Hazel, Dr. A. E. Montagu, E. S.
Clough, W. Helme, Norval Watson Mooney, J. J.
Clynes, J. R. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Coats, SirT. Glen(Renfrew, W.) Henry, Charles S. Morley, Rt. Hon. John
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon., S.) Morre'll, Philip
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hobart, Sir Robert Morse, L. L.
Cooper, G. J. Hodge, John Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Corbett, C.H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd Hogan, Michael Murnaghnn, George
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Holland, Sir William Henry Murphy, John
Cotton. Sir H. J. S. Hooper, A. G. Murray. James
Cowan, W. H. Horniman, Emslie John Myer, Horatio
Cox, Harold Horridge, Thomas Gardner Nannetti, Joseph P.
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Napier, T. B.
Cremer, William Randal Hudson, Walter Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)
Crombie. John William Hutton, Alfred Eddison Nicholls, George
Crooks, William Idris, T. H. W. Nolan, Joseph
Dalmeny, Lord Illingworth, Percy H. Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Dalrymple, Viscount Isaacs, Rufus Daniel Nussey, Thomas Willans
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Jackson, R. S. Nuttall. Harry
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan) Jacoby, James Alfred O'Brien, Kindal(TipperaryMid)
Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Jardine, Sir J. ' O'Brien. Patrick (Kilkenny)
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Jenkins, J. O'Connor. James(Wicklow, W.)
Delany, William Jones, Sir D. Brynmor(Swansea O'Doherty. Philip
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Jones, Leif (Appleby) O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.) Jones, William(Carnarvonshire) O'Malley, William
O'Shanghnessy, P. J. Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) Walsh, Stephen
Palmer, Sir Charles Mark Schwann, Sir C. E.(.Manchester Walters, John Tudor
Parker, James (Halifax) Scott, A. H.(Ashton-und.-Lyne) Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Partington, Oswald Sears. J. E. Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Paul, Herbert Seely, Major J. 15. Ward. John(Stoke-upon-Trent)
Paulton, James Mellor Shackleton, David James Wardle, George J.
Pearce, Robert (Stuffs, Leek) Shaw. Charles Edw. (Stafford) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Pearce, William (Limehouse) Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.) Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Perks. Robet William Shipman, Dr. John G. Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John Waterlow. D. S.
Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Watt, H. Anderson
Pickersgill, Edward Hare Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Pirie, Duncan V. Snowden, P. Weir, James Galloway
Pollard, Dr. Soames, Arthur Wellesley White, George (Norfolk)
Price, C.E.(Edinburgh, Central) Soares, Ernest J. White, J. D.(Dumbartonshire)
Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.) Spicer, Sir Albert While. Luke (York, E.R.)
Radford, G. H. Stanger, H. Y. White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Rainy. A. Holland Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) Whitehead, Rowland
Raphael, Herbert H. Steadman, W. C. Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Bea, Russell (Gloucester) Stewart, Halley (Greenock) Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro) Strachey, Sir Edward Wiles, Thomas
Redmond, John E. (Waterford Straus, B. S. (Mile End) Wilkie, Alexander
Redmond, William (Clare) Stuart, James (Sunderland) Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Roes, J. D. Sullivan, Donal Williams, Llewelyn (Carm'rth'n
Rendall, Athelstan Summerbell, T. Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Richards, Thomas(W. Monm'th Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) Wilson, Hon. C. H.W.(Hull, W.)
Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n Taylor, John W. (Durham) Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R
Richardson. A. Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Ridsdale, E. A. Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr) Wilson, W. T. (Westhonsrhton)
Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Thomson, W. Mitchell (Lanark) Winfrey, R.
Robertson, Rt. Hn E. (Dundee) Thorne, William Wodehouse, Lord (Norfolk, Mid)
Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Tomkinson, James Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Robinson, S. Torrance, Sit A. M. Woodhouse, SirJ. T.(Huddersf'd
Robson, Sir William Snowdon Toulmin, George Young, Samuel
Roe, Sir Thomas Trevelyan, Charles Philips Younger, George
Rogers, V. E. Newman Ure, Alexander Yoxall, James Henry
Rowlands, J. Verney, F. W.
Runciman, Walter Wadsworth, J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Wallace, Robert
NOES.
Acland-Hood. Rt. Hn. Sir AlexF. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- M'Calmont, Colonel James
Arkwright, John Stanhope Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan Marks, H. H. (Kent)
Ashley, W. W. Faber, George Denison (York) Meysey-Thompson, E. C.
Balcarres, Lord Fell, Arthur Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(City Lond. Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Morpeth, Viscount
Banner, John S. Harmood Fletcher, J. S. Nicholson, Win. G. (Petersfield)
Barrie, H.T. (Londonderry, N.) Forster, Henry William Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) Parkes, Ebenezer
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Bignold, Hon. Gervase Gordon, Sir W. Evans-(T'r Ham. Percy, Earl
Bowles. G. Stewart Haddock, George R. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Carlile, E. Hildred Hamilton, Marquess of Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Castlereagh, Viscount Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd) Racliff, Major R. F.
Cave, George Harrison-Broadley. Col. H. B. Rawlinson, John FrederickPeel
Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W. Hay, Hon. Claude George Remnant, James Farquharson
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Cecil, Lord R. (Marlebone, E.) Hunt. Rowland Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Chamberlain. Bt Hit J. A. (Wore.) Keswick. William Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham Kimber. Sir Henry Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Collings, Rt. Hn. J.(Birm'gham) Lane-Fox, G. R. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Corbett, N. L. (Down, North) Liddell, Henry Starkey, John R.
Craig, CharlesCnrtis(Antrim, S.) Long. Col. Charles W.(Evesham) Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh)
Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.) Lonsdale, John Brownlee Talbot, Lord E. (ChiChester)
Dixon-Hartland, Sir FredDixon Lyttleton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Tumour, Viscount
Doughty, Sir George Maclver, David (Liverpool) Valentia, Viscount
Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Frederick Banbury and Sir William Bull.
Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Question, "That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed— In page 3, line 23,at end, to add the words, 'and Section 3 of the Parliamentary Elections and Corrupt Practices Act, 1880, shall be substituted for Section 81 of the Parliamentary Voters' Registration Act, 1843; and the expression 'university' shall include a combination of universities.'"—(Mr. Thomas Shaw.)

MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD moved to add words to provide that nothing in Section 5 should enable the Secretary for Scotland to modify or vary any Act of Parliament. He gathered from the explanation given by the Lord-Advocate that he would probably not be unwilling to accept such an Amendment. It appeared to him that when giving extensive powers to the Secretary for Scotland to issue instructions it should be perfectly clear that if some Acts of Parliament were to be modified or varied it should be done by Parliament and not by the Secretary for Scotland. They ought' to know what was to be altered, and what, if anything, was to be put in its place. If the intention was that the Secretary for Scotland should only be empowered to issue instructions for the purpose of enabling this Act to be carried out it seemed to him that the Government might accept the Amendment. If it was intended that the Secretary for Scotland should be able to issue instructions of such a character that he would be able to alter or vary Acts of Parliament, then he thought they ought to oppose the clause as far as possible.

Amendment proposed— After the words last added, to add the words 'Provided always that nothing contained in this section shall empower the Secretary for Scotland to alter or modify the terms of any Act of Parliament.'" —(Mr. William Rutherford.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. THOMAS SHAW

said the hon. Member might take it from him that; there was no desire to go one iota beyond the provisions of the Act of Parliament. After all, if he might say so without offence, he thought a great deal more had been made of these Orders in Council, and the instructions to be issued by the Secretary for Scotland, than really they were worth. When they came to ex-amino the proposal they would find that substantially what the Order in Council was to provide for was the kind of mark to be put on the register. The Order in Council was to give some practical guidance to those in charge of the making up of the register. In the case of Scotland that was to be done by the Secretary for Scotland with the supplementary provision that he should give instructions for the extra marking caused by the difference in the statutory year for the register in Scotland from the calendar year to which the English register applied. There was no necessity for the stipulation proposed by the hon. Member. No one could believe that it would enter the mind of any officer to go beyond the law. Anything he did in that way would be null and void and of absolutely no effect whatever. If the words of the Amendment were added the clause would be awkward. It might raise a question as to why Parliament had made the stipulation. Between now and the Report stage he would be willing to consider the whole point. He did not think the hon. Member would wish him to go further at this stage. He would very carefully consider the point with those advisers who were skilled in the framing of such clause.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said that nobody could complain of the tone or substance of the remarks of the right hon. and learned Gentleman; but it must have been noticed that oven in the course of his explanation he had admitted that there was by this Bill a very wide distinction between the functions of those entrusted with the preparation of Orders in Council and those which were to be entrusted to the Secretary for Scotland. That was not due to any ill-will on the part of the Government, but to the accident of the difference between the registers of Scotland and England. The result, however, was that much wider powers would be entrusted to the Secretary for Scotland than were found necessary in the case of the corresponding authorities in England. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had told the Committee, and they were bound to accept his assurance as representing the intentions of the Government, that to the best of his belief no existing statute would be altered by the regulations laid down by the Secretary for Scotland. Of course, the right hon. and learned Gentleman would be the first to admit that a mere statement by a Minister of the Crown that certain powers given by this House would not be misused, would not be a justification for putting excessive powers in a statute. Governments changed and Members of the Government changed, but this House had to legislate for the whole period between the passing of a statute and its repeal. They were, therefore, bound to watch with a very jealous eye any powers given to an executive officer dealing with modification of Acts of Parliament. He thought they should not give such powers except after the most careful consideration. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had laid down the proposition that anything done by the Secretary for Scotland in contravention of existing statutes would be null and void. He quite agreed that if those acts were null and void there would be no use in his hon. friend moving these words. But would that be so? The right hon. and learned Gentleman might be a greater master of legal interpretation than he was, but supposing that under the words of the statute when passed into law as it now stood, the action of the Secretary for Scotland was challenged in Court and the Secretary for Scotland said, "In obedience to an Act of Parliament I have no doubt modified previous statutes, but the Court will observe that I did not modify them more than was absolutely necessary in order to make the Act workable."

Would that be nullified? He did not think it would be. In the first place they must be assured that there was no power to modify statutes, and in the second place that all that was to be done could be done without modifying statutes. He hoped the right hon. and learned Gentleman would make this perfectly clear and that between now and the Report stage he would work out the exact regulations which the Secretary for Scotland would have to issue in order to make the Bill workable. When the right hon. and learned Gentleman did that and convinced himself that nothing required to be modified, surely the natural susceptibilities of the House would be met if he inserted some words of the kind suggested by the Amendment of his hon. friend. There might be precedents for granting powers to particular officers of the Crown of modifying statutes, but they must be very rare; and he earnestly pressed the Government to preserve a perfectly sound precedent and to limit the possibility of any abuse of the general principles of legislation by taking care that legislation should only be modified by legislation and that the Executive of the Crown should be strictly limited as to the instructions to be laid down by them.

MR. THOMAS SHAW

said it was only just to the Committee to say that he was very much obliged for the observations of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, who had stated exactly the nature and character of the difficulties which were in his own mind.

MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD

said that it must be obvious to the right hon. and learned Gentleman in charge of this clause of the Bill that he had the advantage of those who sat on the Opposition side of the House, because he probably knew what the instructions were to be, while they did not. He took it that between now and the Report stage the matter would be sifted, and that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would be able to say whether the instructions did or did not require any modifications of Acts of Parliament. In the event of his finding that the instructions might modify an Act of Parliament he suggested that the right hon. and learned Gentleman should tell the House on the Report: stage the exact manner in which it was intended to vary or alter such Act of Parliament.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN (Worcestershire, E.)

called the attention of the right hon. and learned Gentleman to two specific cases where modification of an Act of Parliament would have to be made. There was Section 13 of the Registration of Voters (Scotland) Act, which said that "the said printed book or books as signed in any burgh should be regarded as the list of persons entitled to vote," and there was the 31st section of the Registration of County Voters (Scotland) Act, where a similar provision would have to be varied.

MR. THOMAS SHAW

said that that was a very just and useful interposition. It was on account of just such a proviso that he would be deceiving the Committee if he accepted a broad Amendment saying that there should be no interference with any Act of Parliament. What they must do was to provide that the Secretary for Scotland should not do more in his executive capacity than Parliament desired. He did not wish to mislead the Committee by giving them to understand that he was pledged to the text of the regulations, because Orders in Council could not be produced until the whole of the statute had been passed by both Houses of Parliament.

MR. WILLTAM RUTHERFORD

said that alter the explanation of the right hon. and learned Gentleman he would ask leave to withdraw his Amendment, leaving the matter to be dealt with on the Report stage.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That Clause 5, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

*SIR HENRY CRAIK (Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities)

said he wished to point out some very serious administrative difficulties which were involved in this clause, and he thought in doing so he would have some sympathy from many Members of the Liberal party in Scotland. He joined most fully in the gratitude expressed by the Leader of the Opposition 'for the most courteous altitude of the right hon. and learned Lord-Advocate, and for the clearness of the observations 'which he had made; but the right hon. and learned Gentleman would forgive him for saying that he had failed, from oversight, to answer some of the questions which had been raised in the debate. He wished to deal with this matter not in its legal aspects but on broad constitutional grounds of a most important kind for Scotland. He thought that not all the Members for Scotland would quite join in the trustful optimism shown by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy. He wished to make a strong protest against the clause on the ground that this was legislation by reference of the most pronounced and worst kind. He had had the advantage, or disadvantage, of a very long administrative experience, and one thing which more than another had impressed itself upon him was the serious inexpediency of permanent officials or officials of any kind venturing to legislate by Minute. Over and over again the right hon. Gentleman had himself joined in those denunciations and had told them, amid the plaudits of his supporters, that this was a thing which must be brought to a conclusion. Let them see what these much - abused Minutes had aimed at doing. Occasionally by Minutes or Orders in Council necessary sums had to be expended and points of administrative detail of the minutest kind had to be settle0d. Matters which during the course of the year might occur and which no one could foresee had to be dealt with by these Minutes. These Minutes were necessarily laid upon the Table of the House, and the House had the right to criticise and to debate upon them. They had no effect until the House of Commons sanctioned them. Under Clause 5 of this Hill the process by Order in Council, which applied to England, was not to apply to Scotland. He had asked the reason of this, pointing out that in Scotland Orders in Council were just as frequent, and just as usual as in England. An Order in Council, he reminded the Committee, had necessarily to be published in the Gazett. It might be laid upon the Table of the House, and Parliament might exercise its Imperial functions in regard to it. Why, therefore, bad they not the same process of Order in Council made applicable to Scotland? There were not even to be orders of the Secretary for Scotland. The words used were that the Secretary for Scotland might "issue instructions"—not an order which would stand the brunt of criticism in the House, but instructions which might be issued to various people from time to time, modified as seemed expedient, and which, for all they knew, might not necessarily be uniform. An intricate Bill had been laid before the House, and he supposed that when it came to applying it to Scotland, where the electoral law was not in all respects the same, where the currency of the electoral year was different, and where the agencies through which the law was carried out were entirely different, it was found difficult to have entirely separate and independent clauses in the Bill, and the right hon. Gentleman came to the conclusion that the best way to deal with the situation was to cut the Gordian knot altogether, and say he would not deal with it by the Act of Parliament, and would not introduce provisions different from those applicable to England—provisions which practically would amount to a new Bill—but would trust to the Secretary for Scotland and, as they could not foresee all the possible difficulties, give him absolute discretion and add to his administrative powers so chat he might meet any difficulty which arose by issuing special instructions as might seem to him fit. He knew that complaints such as he was now making had been made over and over again by Members on the opposite Benches who were his colleagues in the representation of Scotland, and he hoped that they were not of the Tom Acres species of politicians who, strong and courageous on the hustings, dared not express their views in opposition to the Treasury Bench. He hoped they would have the courage of their opinions. He did not doubt their sincerity, but they should remember that in Scotland interpretations far from pleasant might be placed upon their absence from the debate. They had the vital interests of Scotland in their power, and he thought it was far from creditable to them that they should have left it to one of the despised and discredited University Members to stand up for them. He considered Scotland had also another grievance in the fact that the Secretary for Scotland had not given them the benefit of his advice and assistance. The right hon. Gentleman underrated his own authority in the House, and the respect in which he was held. He made his protest, not in any way as touching the merits of the Bill—that would be out of order—but against the inclusion of Scotland within the provisions of the Bill by a clause which did not take adequate account of the different circumstances, but which rivetted upon Scotland government by Minute and instruction in a far more pronounced and pernicious form than it had ever taken before. Someone had objected to the clause because it was legislation by reference. It was far worse. It could not be legislation by reference, because it would be difficult to find another Act of Parliament which would compare with the provisions of this clause. It was legislation by delegation, and that of the worst sort. It was not delegation to any Provincial Council or a Home Rule Bill; it was not delegation to any local authority—it was legislation by delegation to officials. In the name of Scottish Members be protested against it.

SIR EDWARD SASSOON (Hythe)

said he could not but associate himself with the animadversions which had been uttered by his hon. friend as to the unfair attitude which had been adopted by the Government. This was especially remarkable, as the one person in whose hands the electoral fortunes of Scotland rested was absent. He did not wish to drive home the pusillanimous and chicken-hearted conduct of Scottish Members opposite in regard to a question 'which concerned their interests and those of their constituents. His principal object was to put to the Lord Advocate one simple question. The right hon. Gentleman had told them in the hypothetical case put by the Loader of the Opposition of the English elector who on' the 1st of November selected a Scottish constituency, that so far as Scotland was concerned he would be debarred from exercising his vote, but in England he would still be allowed to exercise it if I an election took place in November or December. If in Scotland an election took place in those months an elector who asked for a voting paper would be I confronted with the question whether he happened to be on any other registar in any other constituency. Of course he would have to answer in the affirmative, and he would not be allowed to vote between November and January.

SIR F. BANBURY

said though he listened attentively to the speech of the hon. Member who opened the debate on this clause, he was no wiser at the end of that speech than at the beginning. It seemed to him that the apprehensions in the mind of the hon. Member were very great, and that the consequences. of the Bill might be very disastrous to Scotland. The Lord Advocate, on the other hand, had shown very clearly and very lucidly what the effect of this clause would be, and after listening to the right hon. Gentleman he had come to the conclusion that there were two very serious objections to it. The first was that it would make the register of Scotland very complicated, and would cause great confusion in the minds of those who had plural qualifications. It would be very difficult for a voter with a double qualification to find out whether, if he exercised his vote, he would be subject to some of the penalties which had been referred to. Orders in Council were laid on the Table of this House and published in the Gazette, and although it was difficult for an ordinary voter to find out what an Order in Council contained, if he was a very keen politician he could no doubt find from the Gazette what his position was. But in this particular case, so far as the Committee was aware, there was no provision for publishing in any way the Orders which the Secretary of Scotland might issue. He might issue them without even telling anyone in the Scottish Office that he had issued them, and it would be quite impossible to find out what steps were to be taken in respect of them. That was a very serious objection to the clause. If it made it more difficult for a gentleman to exercise his vote it was to be deplored. The second objection was that power was being placed in the hands of the Secretary for Scotland that had never before been put into the hands of any Minister. The Lord Advocate, in answer to a question by the hon. Member, put very clearly the difficulty he was in. The right hon. Gentleman said the Amendment was a good one but that the Secretary for Scotland would not do anything which would abrogate or nullify an Act of Parliament, and that being so it appeared to him that it was unnecessary for the Amendment to be inserted. But the right hon. Member for East Worcestershire got up and read extracts from two Acts of Parliament, and the right hon. Gentleman admitted their truth and professed to be glad of the interruption because he said it showed the difficulty in which he was placed, inasmuch as it was absolutely necessary if the provisions of this clause were to be carried out to insure that the Secretary for Scotland should have power to alter the two Acts of Parliament of which only a few words had been read. That was a very serious objection. He should strongly object to any official arrogating to himself the powers that ought to be exercised by this House, and in that way altering Acts of Parliament which had only been placed upon the Statute-book after considerable deliberation.

MR. THOMAS SHAW

said in regard to the difficulties presented in this clause the Committee would excuse him going over all the points again, because he had already explained them to the Committee with much elaboration, and in the position in which the Committee found itself it was not fair to ask for an explanation to each legal point as it arose. He did not wish the Committee to misconstrue his views, but he submitted to them that every one of these points had been considered except that which he had discussed with the Leader of the Opposition. The senior Member for the City of London had again raised these questions, and he begged the right hon. Gentleman to accept the assurance that all of them were being considered. As to the taunt thrown at the Scottish Members by the hon. Member for Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities, he could have wished the hon. Member had stopped before he got to loggerheads with his Scottish colleagues. He was sure the hon. Member would not place any unpleasant construction on the action of the Scottish Members in this matter, and if he did not, nobody else would. He again assured the Committee that there was no fear whatever of the Department of the Secretary for Scotland going beyond the scope of the Act of Parliament. Speaking of the Scottish Members generally, he thought he could say that in their judgment the question had been thoroughly threshed out, and that the situation had been clarified by the discussions. They were all agreed that this was a good, ship shape clause.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said the right hon. Gentleman had been so genial and courteous that he was sure there would be no disposition in any part of the Committee to deal harshly with him. He did not, however, think the concessions or the promises which the right hon. Gentleman had made could be said to remove their objections to this clause, but they had very sensibly mitigated their objections to the clause in its final form. He would only add a few words in the nature of a plea to the right hen. Gentleman that he would not be too hard upon the Opposition for taking the opportunity on the Question being put that the clause stand part of the Bill, to summarise the arguments which had been used against the clause on individual Amendments to that clause. He would merely enter a mild protest against the censure of the right hon. Gentleman, and venture to suggest that on reflection he would admit that the discussion had been essentially businesslike. The Government themselves had admitted frequently that on the points raised by the Opposition the Bill had required amendment, and even when the Government had refused Amendments, it was because they were of so substantial a nature that they would have altered one of the principles of the measure.

VISCOUNT TURNOUR

urged the Lord-Advocate that he should simplify the Order in Council as much as

possible, so that every voter in Scotland might be able to understand it. The whole of the Bill, and especially this clause, made it very difficult for a voter to understand exactly what he had got to do and the nature of the penalties he would incur. According to "Rogers on Elections," a person might vote even when deaf, dumb, or blind, and in some cases when imbecile. If a person could show by signs or otherwise that he knew the purpose for which he had gone to the poll, the obligations of an oath, and the dangers of perjury, a returning officer was not justified in refusing the vote. That being so, it was to be hoped that the Lord Advocate and the Secretary for Scotland would make the Order in Council as simple as possible, otherwise a poor man from some misapprehension of the meaning of such an Order might incur all the rigorous penalties which this Bill imposed. He wished to add his humble tribute to the Lord Advocate for the great courtesy he had displayed during the debate.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 364; Noes, 86. (Division List, No. 358.)

AYES.
Abraham, William(Cork, N.E.) Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh. Churchill, Winston Spencer
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Boland, John Clarke, C. Goddard
Acland, Francis Dyke Bolton,T.D. (Derbyshire, N.E. Cleland, J. W.
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) Clough, W.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Bowerman, C. W. Clynes, J. R.
Alden, Percy Brace, William Coats.Sir T.Glen (Renfrew, W
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Bramsdon, T. A. Cobbold, Felix Thornley
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Brigg, John Collins.Sir Wm.J.(S.Pancras,W
Ambrose, Robert Bright, J. A. Cooper, G. J.
Ashton, Thomas Gair Brocklehurst, W. B. Corbett,C.H.(Sussex, E.G'nst'd
Asquith,Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Brodie, H. C. Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.
Astbury, John Meir Brooke, Stopford Cotton, Sir H. J. S.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Brunner.J.F.L. (Lancs.,Leigh) Cowan, W. H.
Baker, Joseph A.(Finabury,E.) Brunner,Rt.Hn.Sir J.T.(Chesh. Cox, Harold
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Bryce,Rt.Hn.James (Aberdeen Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)
Barker, John Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs) Cremer, William Randal
Barlow,John Emmott (S'm'rs't Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Crombie, John William
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Buckmaster, Stanley O. Crosfield, A. H.
Barnard, E. B. Burke, E. Haviland. Dalmeny, Lord
Barnes, G. N. Burns, Rt. Hon. John Dalziel, James Henry
Beale, W. P. Burnyeat, W. J. D. Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)
Beauchamp, E. Buxton,Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan
Beaumont,Hn.W.C.B. (H'x'm Byles, William Pollard Davies, Timothy (Fulham)
Beck, A. Cecil Cairns, Thomas Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.
Bell, Richard Cameron, Robert Delany, William
Bellairs, Carlyon Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)
Benn.Sir J.Williams (DVnp'rt Carr-Gomm, H. W. Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.
Benn, W. (T'w'r H'ml'ts, S.Geo Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnight Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N.
Bertram, Julius Cawley, Frederick Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.
Bethell, J.H. (Essex, Romford) Chance, Frederick William Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Billson, Alfred Cheetham, John Freder ck Donelan, Captain A.
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Duckworth, James
Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness Kearley, Hudson E. O'Malley, William
Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Kekewich, Sir George O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne Kelley, George D. Palmer, Sir Charles Mark
Dunne,Major E.Martin(Walsall Kennedy, Vincent Paul Parker, James (Halifax)
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Kincaid-Smith, Captain Partington. Oswald
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) King, Alfred John (Knutsford Paul, Herbert
Edwards, Frank (Radnor) Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James Paulton, James Mellor
Elibank, Master of Laidlaw, Robert Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)
Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster) Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Erskine, David C. Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Perks, Robert William
Esmonde, Sir Thomas Lambert, George Philipps,J. Wynford (Pembroke
Eve, Harry Trelawney Lamont, Norman Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke
Everett, R. Lacey Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Faber, G. H. (Boston) Layland-Barratt, Francis Pirie, Duncan V.
Fenwick, Charles Leese,Sir Joseph F.(Accringt'n Pollard, Dr.
Ferguson, R. C. Munro Lehmann, R. C. Price, C. 10. (Edinb'gh.Central)
Field, William Lever,A. Levy (Essex,Harwich) Price,Robert John (Norfolk,E.
Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral) Rainy, A. Rolland
Flynn, James Christopher Levy, Maurice Raphael, Herbert H.
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lewis, John Herbert Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Freeman-Thomas, Freeman Lough, Thomas Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'
Fuller, John Michael F. Lundon, W. Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Fullerton, Hugh Maedonald,J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs Redmond, William (Clare)
Gardner,Col.Alan (Hereford,S. Mackarness, Frederic C. Rees, J. D.
Gibb, James (Harrow) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Rendall, Athelstan
Gill, A. H. Macpherson, J. T. Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th
Ginnell, L. MacVeagh,Jeremiah (Down, S. Richards, T. V. (Wolverli'mpt'n
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Her belt John MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal.E. Richardson. A.
Glover, Thomas M'Callum, John M. Ridsdale, E. A.
Goddard, Daniel Ford M'Crae, George Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Gooch, George Peabody M'Kean, John Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) M'Kenna, Reginald Robertson, Rt.Hn. E. (Dundee
Gulland, John W. M'Killop, W. Robertson.Sir G.Scott (B'rdf'd
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Robertson, J. W. (Tyneside)
Hall, Frederick M'Micking, Major G. Robinson, S.
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis Maddison, Frederick Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Hardie,J.Keir (Merthyr Tydvil Mallet, Charles E. Roe, Sir Thomas
Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Manfield, Harry (Northants) Rogers, F. E. Newman
Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r Marnham, F, J. Rowlands, J.
Hart-Davies, T. Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Runciman, Walter
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Massie, J. Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Harwood, George Masterman, C. F. G. Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland
Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Meagher, Michael Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Menzies, W'alter Schwann.Sir C.E. (Manchester
Haworth, Arthur A. Micklem, Nathaniel Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne
Hazel, Dr. A. E. Molteno, Percy Alport Scars, J. E.
Helme, Norval Watson Money, L. G. Chiozza Seely, Major J. B.
Hemmerde,Edward George Montagu, E. S. Shackleton, David James
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Mooney, J. J. Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Henry, Charles S. Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.
Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.) Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Hobart, Sir Robert Morley, Rt. Hon. John Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Hodge, John Morrell, Philip Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Hogan, Michael Morse, L. L. Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.
Holden, E. Hopkinson Morton, Alpheus Clcophas Snowden, P.
Holland, Sir William Henry Murnaghan, George Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Hooper, A. G. Murphy, John Soares, Ernest J.
Horniman, Emslie John Murray, James Spicer, Sir Albert
Horridge, Thomas Gardner Nannetti, Joseph P. Stanger, H. Y.
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Napier, T. B. Stanley,Hn.A.Lyulph (Chesh.)
Hudson, Walter Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) Steadman. W. C.
Hutton, Alfred Eddison Nicholls, George Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Hyde, Clarendon Nicholson, Charles N. (Donc'r Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Idris, T. H. W. Nolan, Joseph Strachey, Sir Edward
Illingworth, Percy H. Norton, Capt. Cecil William Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Isaacs, Rufus Daniel Nussey, Thomas Willans Stuart. James (Sundcrland,
Jardine, Sir J. Nuttall, Harry Sullivan, Donal
Jenkins, J. O'Brien,Kendal (TipperaryMid Summerbell, T.
Jones.Sir D. Brymnor(Swansea O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth.)
Jones, Leif (Appleby) O'Connor, James (Wicklow.W. Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. O'Doherty, Philip Taylor, Theodore C. (Radeliffe)
Jowett, F. W. O'Grady, J. Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Joyce, Michael O'Kelly,James (Roscommon.N Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.
Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan,E. Wardle. George J. Williams, Llewelyn (Carm'th'n
Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Thorne, William Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan Williamson. A.
Tomkinson, James Wason,John Cathcart (Orkney Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.
Torrance, Sir A. M. Waterlow, D. S. Wilson,J.W. (Worcestersh. N.
Toulmin, George Watt, H. Anderson Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.
Trevelyan, Charles Philips Wedgwood, Josiah C. Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Ure, Alexander Weir, James Galloway Winfrey, R.
Vivian, Henry White, George (Norfolk) Wodehouse,Lord (Norfolk,Mid.
Wads worth, J. White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Waldron, Laurence Ambrose While, Luke (York. E. R.) Woodhouse.SirJ.T. (H'd'rsf'd)
Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) White. Patrick (Meath, North) Young, Samuel
Wallace, Robert Whilehead, Rowland Yoxall, James Henry
Walsh, Stephen Whitley, J. H (Halifax)
Walters, John Tudor Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Walton,Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) Wiles, Thomas Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) Wilkie, Alexander Pease.
Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
NOES.
Acland-Hood,Rt.Hn.SirAlexF. Dalrymple, Viscount Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend
Anstruther-Gray, Major Dixon-Hartland.Sir FredDixon Parkes, Ebenezer
Arkwright, John Stanhope Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Percy, Earl
Ashley, W. W. Dncan. Robert (Lanark.G'v'n Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Balcarres, Lord Fell, Arthur Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Baldwin. Alfred Finch. Rt. Hon. George H. Ratcliffe. Major R. F.
Balfour,Rt.Hn.A.J.(CityLond. Fletcher, J. S. Rawlinson, John FrederickPeel
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Forster, Henry William Remnant. James Farquharson
Banner, John S. Harmood- Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall
Barrie. H. T. (Londonderry, N. Hambro, Charles Erie Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Beach,Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks Hamilton, Marquess of Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hardy,Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd Salter, Arthur Clavell
Bignold, Sir Arthur Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Bowles. G. Stewart Hay. Hon. Claude George Smith, F. E. (Liverpool,Walton
Boyle, Sir Edward Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury Starkey, John R.
Bridgeman, W. Clive Kennaway,Rt.Hon.Sir Jolin H. Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh.
Bull, Sir William James Kimber, Sir Henry Stone, Sir Benjamin
Carlile, E. Hildred Lane-Fox, G. R. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Carson. Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Liddell, Henry Turnour, Viscount
Castlereagh. Viscount Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R. Valentia, Viscount
Cave, George Long, Col.Charles W. (Evesh'm Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard
Cavendish,Rt.Hn. Victor C. W. Lonsdale, John Brownlee Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Wilson, A. Stanley (York.E.R.
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E. Magnus, Sir Philip Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.A. (Wor. Marks, H. H. (Kent) Younger, George
Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham Meysey-Thompson, E. C.
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Mildmay, Francis Bingham TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Morpeth, Viscount Sir Henry Craik and Mr.
Craig,Charles Curtis (Antrim,S. Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield Mitchell-Thomson.
Craig, Captain James(Down,E. Nield, Herbert

MR. PIKE PEASE(Darlington) moved a new clause to provide that no existing vote with a plural qualification should be affected by the Bill. He said it was clear that in the United Kingdom all those persons who had more than one vote would, in the future, not be able to exercise them. When the right hon. Gentleman introduced this measure he said that its value was in inverse ratio to its size. After listening to the interesting debates which had taken place he thought hon. Members would agree that there were many points of difficulty in the Bill which the Government had not realised when they framed it, which gave a maximum of inconvenience, and only a minimum of benefit. In the case of former measures of this kind it had always been stated—and Mr. Gladstone was very strong on this point—that they should not disfranchise voters who had voters under any circumstances whatever. He would like to point out that it was not unreasonable that those in the country who had votes for University candidates should continue to have them. But this Bill struck a great blow at University representation, and although it did not mean that University representation would cease to exist, nevertheless it was perfectly plain that if the Bill was passed in its present form it was not likely that University representation would continue. Another point he would like to draw attention to was with regard to the depletion which would take place amongst the rural voters. In many rural constituencies there would be a very large depletion, because they contained a much smaller average number of voters, and as there were a considerable number of plural voters, the total remaining would be exceedingly small and this would make the position very anomalous. It seemed to him that there were many ways in which this question could be dealt with in a more simple manner than the one now proposed. It had always been put forward by the Liberal Party that this question should be dealt with in such a manner that it would work automatically and simply, but he thought the Committee would agree with him that this measure was not at all a simple one. If, at the present time, the city of Birmingham was given representation on the same scale as Kilkenny there would be fifty-eight Members for Birmingham. A very large number of those who now possessed two or three votes appreciated the continuance of those votes, and he was sure there would be very little hardship to those who might become new plural voters. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would favourably consider his Amendment.

New clause— Nothing in this Act shall deprive any person (who at the date of the passing of this Act is registered in respect of any qualification to vote for any county or borough) of his right to be from time to time registered and to vote for such county or borough in respect of such qualifications in like manner as if this Act had not passed."—(Mr. Pike Pease.) Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the clause be read a second time."

The FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. HARCOURT,) Lancashire, Rossendale

pointed out that this was not a franchise Bill, When they were extending the franchise and altering the qualification it had always been usual and natural to have a saving clause of this kind. If the clause which had been proposed were inserted they would not get the Act in operation for a generation to come. Even if the clause were a desirable one he would ask hon. Members opposite to think what machinery would be required under it. The register would have to contain two classes of voters throughout, one class qualified for a plural vote before to-day and another class that had not qualified. It was quite impossible to put such a provision into this measure, for its insertion would make the Bill worthless.

MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS

said he could not agree with the contention put forward by the right hon. Gentleman. He had said that this was not a franchise Bill and he had also disclaimed that it was a disfranchising Bill. His opinion was that precedents ought to be adhered to in this matter. He would remind the Committee that even at the present time there were "faggot" voters on the register who voted notwithstanding the Act of 1884, and they had been allowed to continue on the register until their death. It had already been pointed out that statesmen belonging to the Party opposite in introducing former Bills had made a great boast of the fact that no class of voter was disfranchised, and that was the view put forward by Mr. Gladstone in 1884, for he then stated that the Bill he introduced dispossessed no single man of his existing right. The Bill introduced by Mr. Gladstone abolished the £50 rental franchise, and Mr. Gladstone pointed out then that hardly any man would be injured by the proposal he was making, because he considered it hardly possible that there would be any man entitled to this franchise who would not come within the county franchise he set up in future. So careful was Mr. Gladstone not to interfere with existing rights. If this was a disfranchising Bill they could understand the position taken up by the Government, but the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill had told them throughout that it was not a disfranchising Bill. That being so, he thought the Government ought to follow the precedents he had pointed out, and save the rights of the existing voters.

*MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSON (Staffordshire, Handsworth)

said this new clause seemed to him so eminently reasonable and fair that he thought it would not be necessary for him to say many words in support of it. It struck him with astonishment that the Government should propose to alter the register at all. Surely they, of all people, ought to be satisfied with the result of the last general election. If they were satisfied it seemed to him that they were turning round and biting the hand that fed them. He went further and said that this was a sort of political patricide, for the Government were attacking the very register which had brought them into being. In this connection the Committee would doubtless all remember the immortal words of Shakspeare— How Sharper than a serpent's tooth it is To have ft thankless child. and since the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works was a personal friend of his own, he should be sorry to see him handed down to posterity as a thankless child with a serpent's tooth. It seemed to him that during the course of these debates they had lost sight of the point which was really the most important, namely, to get into this House the very best representatives they could possibly obtain. He was reminded in this connection of a discussion that took place some years ago in a sporting paper as to what was the best bit to put on a horse. Those who took part in the discussion gave so much attention to the question of which bit the horses might be supposed to prefer that they lost sight of the fact that what was really wanted was the best bit with which to guide and control the horse. It seemed to him that in discussing the question of the franchise they had lost sight of the fact that what they wanted to get was the election of the best representatives to this House, and he thought that the Government could hardly quarrel with the choice of representatives which had been made at the last general election, oven after the hard things which had been said of the harmless necessary University Members. He would appeal to the Government to allow the new clause to be inserted and preserve to those who had at present plural qualifications the rights which they possessed. It was quite a different thing to handicap a man before a race and to trip him up during a race. He would remind the Committee that an exemption was made by Mr. Gladstone himself in 1884 by which the votes of faggot voters were expressly preserved to those who already had them, while the creation of further faggot voters was prevented.

VISCOUNT TURNOUR

hoped the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill would give more consideration to the new proposal than he had given to other proposals. Under the Bill the Government proposed immediately to take away from a man what he had hitherto possessed. The plural voter was to be legally robbed of what he had hitherto possessed, and, if in the course of that legal robbery he did not carry out all the restrictions imposed upon him by this Bill, he was to be heavily penalised. Since the days of the Plantagenet kings of England there had been no greater case of legalisod robbery than there would be under this Bill.

MR. FELL (Great Yarmouth)

said that a proposal which would have the effect of bringing gradually into operation an Act which made such enormous changes was certainly deserving of support. He would just quote one example of the changes it would make. The industrious man who had saved and who had bought a little piece of land in a constituency other than that on which he resided had obtained a second vote. He had a bit of pride in the fact that he had another vote. It was an honest pride which a working man or anyone might possess, and he ought to be encouraged in it and not penalised for it. It had been so in the past. A man had bought a piece of land with the knowledge that he would get a vote in another constituency. In the future this privilege was to be taken away from him. By the proposed new clause, however, a man buying a piece of land in another constituency would know perfectly well that he would not get another vote for it. That was perfectly straightforward, and in the future it would be perfectly right. The attraction of a second vote might have been an inducement to a man to save and buy a piece of land in another constituency, but in the future he would know perfectly well that he would get no second vote. He thought that was a consideration which should weigh with the Committee. He considered that voters should not be either penalised or lose what they had in the way proposed by the Bill, but that they should be allowed to retain what they had saved their money to get. If the proposed new clause were not accepted, working men who had been industrious and had saved and bought some small property in a second constituency would be deprived of that electoral privilege they had earned.

SIR FREDERICK BANBURY

said if the right hon. Gentleman accepted this Amendment he would make a very great difference to the City of London. That remark had been received with cheers by hon. Members on the Benches below the gangway, but he did not know that they quite realised what the position of the City of London would be under the Bill. There were 30,000 electors in the City of London, and he believed he was right in saying that of these only 5,000 would be able to exercise the vote. [MINISTERIAL cheers.] That cheer threw considerable doubt on the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that this was not a disfranchising Bill. If the Bill reduced the electors of the City of London from 30,000 to 5,000, was it not a disfranchising Bill? His intervention in the debate had brought out the fact that this was a disfranchising Bill. He assumed that the electors of the City of London who had plural votes would choose other places in which to record them. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the St. Augustine's division of Kent had shown that the Liberal Party in disqualifying persons who were already in possession of the vote were going against a principle on which the late Mr. Gladstone acted in dealing with alterations in the franchise. It was a little early in the day for the Radical Party to bring in a

Reform Bill. Hitherto when the Radical Party had been in office, except in 1892, they had brought in Reform Bills towards the end of the Parliament. He presumed that was because they were aware that they had so dissatisfied the country that they thought they must do something to add new electors. This time they proposed to cut off the register voters who were already on it. He trusted that in order to save themselves from such an imputation the Government would accept the now clause.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said he was rather surprised that this Amendment had not met with amore sympathetic reception from the Liberal Party. Plural voting had been advocated in the interest of that Party. Up to the time of the last extension of the franchise Liberal organisers had habitually urged members of the Liberal Party to pay forty shillings for a freehold in order that they might have a chance of ousting the Conservative representative. He himself possessed one of these qualifications, which was acquired under the active stimulus and advice of the Liberal agent. The hon. Member for the Handsworth division had said that the Liberal Party had been guilty of something like patricide in bringing forward this Bill, but considering the way in which Mr. Cobden had dealt with the matter he hoped that they would show more mercy to the pluralists of the Liberal Party and not be guilty of political infanticide.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 87; Noes, 360. (Division List No. 309.)

AYES.
Anstruther-Gray, Major Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Finch, Rt. hon. George H.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Castlereagh, Viscount Fletcher, J. S.
Ashley, W. W. Cave, George Forster, Henry William
Balcarres, Lord Cavendish.Rt.Hn. Victor C. Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)
Baldwin, Alfred Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Haddock, George R.
Balfour,Rt.Hn.A.J.(City Lond. Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone.E. Hambro, Charles Erie
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.J.A.(Wor. Hamilton, Marquess of
Banner, John, S. Harmood- Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hardy, Laurence (Kent.Ashf'd
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Harrison-Broadley. Col. H. B.
Beach,Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks Craig,Charles Curtis (Antrim,S. Hay, Hon. Claude George
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Craig,Captain James (Down,E. Hill.Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)
Bignold, Sir Arthur Craik, Sir Henry Hills, J. W.
Bridgeman, W. Clive Dalrymple, Viscount Houston, Robert Paterson
Bull, Sir William James Dixon-Hartland,Sir FredDixon Kennaway.Rt. Hn. Sir John H.
Butcher, Samuel Henry Douglas,Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Kimber, Sir Henry
Carlile, E. Hildred Fell, Arthur Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win-
Lane-Fox, G. R. Percy, Earl Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Liddell, Henry Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark
Lockwood, Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R. Randles, Sir John Scurrah Turnour, Viscount
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Rateliffe, Major R. F. Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard
M'Calmont, Colonel James Rawlinson,John Frederick Peel Walker.Col.W.H. (Lancashire)
Magnus, Sir Philip Remnant, James Farquharson Wilson,A.Stanley (York, E. R.
Marks, H. H. (Kent) Roberts,S.(Sheftield, Ecclesall Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Ropnor, Colonel Sir Robert Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Salter, Arthur Clavell Younger, George
Morpeth, Viscount Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Nicholson,Wm. G. (Petcrsfield) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir
Nield, Herbert Smith, F.E. (Liverpool, Walton Alexander Acland-Hood and
Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend Starkey, John R. Viscount Valentia.
Parkes, Ebenezer Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh.
Pease.Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n Stone, Sir Benjamin
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork,N. E. Cairns, Thomas Fenwick, Charles
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Cameron, Robert Ferguson, R. C. Munro
Acland, Francis Dyke. Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Fiennes, Hon. Eustace
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Carr-Gomm, H. W. Flynn, James Christopher
Ainsworth, John Stirling Causton,Rt. Hn.RichardKnight Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Alden, Percy Cawley, Frederick Freeman-Thomas, Freeman
Allen,A.Acland (Christchurch) Chance, Frederick William Fuller, John Michael F.
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Cheetham, John Frederick Fullerton, Hugh
Ashton, Thomas Gair Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Gibb, James (Harrow)
Asquith,Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry Churchill, Winston Spencer Gill, A. H.
Astbury, John Meir Clarke, C. Goddard Ginnell, L.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Cleland, J. W. Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury.E. Clough, W. Glover, Thomas
Baring,Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Clynes, J. R. Goddard, Daniel Ford
Barker, John Coats, Sir T.Glen (Renfrew,W.) Gooch, George Peabody
Barlow,John Emmott (S'm'rs't Cobbold, Felix Thornley Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Collins, SirWm.J.(S.Pancras.W Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward
Barnard, E. B. Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Gulland, John W.
Barnes, G. N. Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Beale, W. P. Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.
Beauchamp, E. Cotton, Sir H. J. S Hall, Frederick
Beanmont,Hn.W.C.B.(Hexh'm Cowan, W. H. Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis
Beck, A. Cecil Cox, Harold Hardie, J. Keir (MerthyrTydvil
Bell, Richard Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)
Bellairs, Carlyon Cremer, William Randal Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)
Benn.Sir J.Williams (D'v'np'rt Crosfield, A. H. Hart-Davies, T.
Benn,W.(T'w'r H'ml'ts,S. Geo. Dalmeny, Lord Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale
Bertram, Julius Dalziel, lames Henry Harwood, George
Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Haslam, James (Derbyshire
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Haslam, Lewis (Honmouth)
Billson, Alfred Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Haworth, Arthur A.
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Hazel, Dr. A. E.
Black,Arthur W. (Bedfordsh. Delany, William Helme, Norval Waston
Bolton,T.D. (Derbyshire, N.E Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Hemmerde, Edward George
Boulton, A. C. V. (Ramsey) Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.) Henderson, Arthur Durham)
Bowerman, C. W. Dickinson, W. H. (St.Pancras Henry, Charles S.
Brace, William Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)
Bramsdon, T. A. Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Hobart, Sir Robert
Branch, James Donelan, Captain A. Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Brigg, John Duckworth, James Hodge, John
Bright, J. A. Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness Hogan, Michael
Broeklehurst, W. B. Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Holden, E. Hopkinson
Brodie, H. C Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Hooper, A. G.
Brooke, Stopford Dunne, MajorE.Martin(Walsall Horniman, Emslie John
Brunner, J.F.L. (Lanes., Leigh Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Horridge, Thomas Gardner
Brunner, Rt.HnSirJ,T.(Chesh.) Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Bryce, Rt.Hn.James-Aberdeen Edwards, Frank (Radnor) Hudson, Walter
Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs) Elibank, Master of Hyde, Clarendon
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Illingworth, Percy H.
Burke, K. Haviland- Erskine, David C Isaacs, Rufus Daniel
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Esmonde, Sir Thomas Jardine, Sir J.
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Eve, Harry Trelawney Jenkins, J.
Buxton, Rt.Hn.Sydney Chas. Everett, R. Lacey Jones, Sir D.Brynmor(Swansea
Byles, William Pollard Faber, G. H. (Boston) Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Nuttall, Harry Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Jowett, F. W. O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Joyce, Michael O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Strachey, Sir Edward
Kearley, Hudson E. O'Connor, James(Wicklow,W.) Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Kekewich, Sir George O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon
Kelley, George D. O'Grady, J. Stuart, James (Sunderland
Kennedy, Vincent Paul O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) Sullivan, Donal
Kincaid-Smith, Captain O'Malley, William Summerbell, T.
King, Alfred John (Knutsford) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James Parker, James (Halifax) Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Laidlaw, Robert Partington, Oswald Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster Paul, Herbert Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Lambert, George Pearce, William (Limehouse) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Lamont, Norman Perks, Robert William Thomas, DavidAlfred(Merthyr
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Philipps, J.Wynford(Pembroke Tomkinson, James
Layland-Barratt, Francis Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Torrance, Sir A. M.
Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington) Pickersgill, Edward Hare Toulmin, George
Lehmann, R. C. Pirie, Duncan V. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Lever,A.Levy(Essex, Harwich) Pollard, Dr. Ure, Alexander
Lever, W.H.(Cheshire, Wirral) Price, C. E.(Edinburgh,Central) Verney, F, W.
Levy, Maurice Price, RobertJohn (Norfolk.E.) Vivian, Henry
Lewis, John Herbert Rainy, A. Rolland Wadsworth, J.
Lough, Thomas Raphael, Herbert Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Lundon, W. Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro') Wallace, Robert
Mackarness, Frederic C. Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Walsh, Stephen
Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Redmond, William (Clare) Walters, John Tudor
MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. Rees, J. D. Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.) Rendall, Athelstan Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
M'Callum, John M. Renton, Major Leslie Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)
M'Crae, George Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th) Wardle, George J.
M'Kean, John Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
M'Kenna, Reginald Richardson, A. Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
M'Killop, W. Ridsdale, E. A. Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Waterlow, D. S.
M'Micking, Major G. Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Watt, H. Anderson
Maddison, Frederick Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Manfield, Harry (Northants) Robertson, SirG.Soctt(Bradf'rd Weir, James Galloway
Marnham, F. J. Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Robinson, S. White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Massie, J. Robson, Sir William Snowdon White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Masterman, C. F. G. Roe, Sir Thomas Whitehead, Rowland
Meagher, Michael Rogers, F. E. Newman Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Menzies, Walter Rowlands, J. Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Micklem, Nathaniel Runciman, Walter Wles, Thomas
Molteno, Percy Alport Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Wilkie, Alexander
Money, L. G. Chiozza Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Montagu, E. S. Samuel, HerbertL.(Cleveland) Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarth'n
Mooney, J. J. Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Schwann, Sir C. E.(Manchester) Williamson. A.
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne Wilson, Hn. C.H.W. (Hull, W.)
Morrell, Philip Sears, J. E. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Morse, L. L. Seely, Major J. B. Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Shackleton, David James Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.)
Murnaghan, George Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Murphy, John Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, H.) Winfrey, R.
Murray, James Shipman, Dr. John G. Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk,Mid
Myer, Horatio Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Nannetti, Joseph P. Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Woodhouse, SirJ.T.(H'ddersf d
Napier, T. B. Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Young, Samuel
Newnes, Sir George Snowdon, P. Yoxall, James Kenry
Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Nicholls, George Soares, Ernest J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r Spicer, Sir Albert Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Nolan, Joseph Stanger, H. Y. Pease.
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Stanley, Hn.A.Lyulph(Chesh.)
Nussey, Thomas Willans Steadman, W. C.
MR. NIELD (Middlesex, Ealing)

had the following Amendment on the Paper. "So much of the twenty-seventh and thirty second sections of The Representation of the People Act, 1832, and of section forty-six of The Repre- sentation of the People Act, 1867, as relates to the residence of electors within seven miles of any city or borough, or twenty-five miles in the case of the City of London, be repealed."

The CHAIRMAN

said that the provisions of the Acts mentioned in the proposed Amendment were outside the scope of this Bill, and therefore the proposed new clause was out of order.

MR. NIELD

said that he proposed to put in words limiting the proposed repeal to persons who had to select a constituency under Clause 1.

The CHAIRMAN

said that if the hon. Member had anything fresh to put before the Committee he should bring up a new clause.

*MR. H. H. MARKS moved the following new clause— No proceedings shall be taken under this Act except on the fiat of the Attorney-General.

The hon. Member said that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill had repeated that evening a striking and original definition which he had given of that measure as a machinery Bill. Happily, in these days, they were in the habit of providing guards to their machinery, in order that those employed on and around it should not be in danger from it. If there was machinery which was calculated to do great injury, it was the machinery of this Bill, and his proposal was to surround it with such effective guards as would reduce that danger to the smallest possible dimensions. The Bill, as it stood, if passed into law, would revolutionise our electoral law, not only in times of elections but in times preceding them. It would also revolutionise and disorganise the registration work of every Party in the State, and it was not difficult to conceive—indeed it was reasonable to anticipate—that this measure would be used by violent political partisans, not only to the detriment of their opponents, but to the detriment of political liberty. Nothing would be simpler than under this Bill to trump up a charge of personation against anybody. A political candidate, suffering under the smart of defeat, would find in this measure the means of wreaking vengeance upon those at whose hands he had suffered defeat. The right hon. Gentleman had undertaken in respect of some minor matters to insert safeguards against this abuse of the Bill, and he thought it was not unreasonable to ask that he should accept the safeguards which he offered by this clause. This Bill, as it stood, would put a most mischievous power in the hands of individuals to wreak political vengeance, and was calculated to entail consequences of a far-reaching character which even its authors would regret. There was no reason why the Attorney-General should not pass an opinion upon the case before the Act was put into force. He had some hope that the right hon. Gentleman would be disposed to regard this new clause with favour, and he himself heartily commended it to the Committee.

New clause— No proceedings shall be taken under this Act except on the fiat of the Attorney-General."—(Mr. H. H. Marks.)

Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made and question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."

MR. HARCOURT

said he was quite prepared to accept a clause couched in somewhat similar words to this, in order to give an assurance or even greater assurance to people that there would be no room for malevolence in regard to the proceedings under the Act. He thought, however, that the words used should be a little fuller than those in the clause now proposed, and that it should provide that in the absence of the Attorney-General the Solicitor-General should come in. He believed there was some well known form in regard to a matter of this kind which he was prepared to accept.

SIR E. CARSON

said he thought the form which the right hon. Gentleman had in his mind included the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General in Ireland, and the Solicitor General in Scotland.

MR. HARCOURT

said that that was what he meant.

MR. MACVEAGH (Down, S.)

wished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman had fully considered the effect of this new clause. It provided that no proceedings should be taken under the Act except on the fiat of the Attorney-General. That might leave a person aggrieved without a remedy.

MR. HARCOURT

said he was sure that the hon. Member opposite understood what he meant when he accepted the Amendment. What he meant was that there should be no proceeding or prosecution instituted from malevolent motives by a private person. He could accept the principle of the clause, but he would bring up an Amendment upon Report.

Proposed new clause, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. HARMOOD-BANNER(Liverpool, Everton) moved the following now clause: "A Parliamentary voter may withdraw any selection made by him on giving notice to the clerk of the county council or town clerk having charge of the registers in which such selection was operative on or before the thirty-first day of August in any year." He hoped the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill would accept this Amendment, because he thought that a voter ought to have as many opportunities as were reasonable for giving his selection. The clause which he was moving gave a Parliamentary voter the right to withdraw any selection made by him by notice to the clerk of the county council or to the town clerk before the 31st of August, and it seemed to him reasonable that if a man had sent in a selection by the 1st of January, and if circumstances occurred under which it seemed to him right for him to change his place of selection he should not be tied and bound by the selection which he had made. New clause— A parliamentary voter may withdraw any selection made by him on giving notice to the clerk of the county council or town clerk having charge of the registers in which such selection was operative on or before the thirty-first day of August in any year."—(Mr. Harmood Banner..) Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made and question proposed, "That the clause be road a second time."

MR. HARCOURT

said the clause would not do in the form in which it was moved, but he had already promised that there should be a power inserted in the Bill for a voter to withdraw his selection.

SIR E. CARSON

said that if the right hon. Gentleman was going to consider this matter, he would point out that the reason why the date of the 31st August was selected was that the notice of selection as matters at present stood must be given before the 1st September.

MR. HARCOURT

said the date was the 5th September.

SIR E. CARSON

said they had bettor make every allowance possible.

MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD

said he understood that according to the Government plan the notice of selection must be sent in prior to the 5th September, but there was no provision fixing the date at which it should be sent in. If a man sent in a notice on the 5th September it would operate, as he understood it, during the following year. The effect of the Bill ought to be that a voter was not restricted to the last week or fortnight, and it was clear that it would only be reasonable that at any time before the 5th September he should be able to withdraw and send in another notice. If that was what the right hon. Gentleman meant to bring about he thought they would all agree that this clause might be withdrawn.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH,) Fifeshire, E.

said in substance that was what his right hon. friend had stated, but he did not wish at the present moment to tie himself to a date.

*MR. CAVE

said he wanted to know exactly what the concession meant. Supposing an elector changed his residence in the course of the year for which a selection had been made, his hon. friend desired that he should be at liberty to withdraw his existing selection and put in a new one for that year. He did not quite see how the right hon. Gentleman met the Amendment, if he was merely going to put in power to withdraw. That would not mean power to withdraw for the current year. It would merely mean that a voter would have power before the month of September in any year to make a satisfied selection for the next ensuing year.

MR. HARCOURT

That is what we mean.

SIR FREDERICK BANBURY

asked what objection there was to accepting this clause now. The right hon. Gentleman could go into Committee on the clause now, but if on the other hand the clause was withdrawn it was quite possible that when they reached the Report stage they would have forgotten what had taken place. He had attended the debate every day, and the right hon. Gentleman had given innumerable pledges which he (Sir Frederick Banbury) had forgotten. They would therefore on the Report stage have to look these pledges up. He did not see any objection whatever to the right hon.

Gentleman accepting this clause, and, if he desired to do so, amending it on the Report stage.

MR. HARCOURT

said it was quite impossible to accept the clause in its present form, and the hon. Baronet might be sure that he had taken a note of all the promises he had made and that his memory would serve him in regard to them. He would take care that all his promises were carried out.

Question put.

MR. HARMOOD-BANNER

said that after the explanation which had been given he would like to withdraw.

The CHAIRMAN

said it was too late to withdraw.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 69; Noes, 343. (Division List No. 360.)

AYES.
Aeland-Hood, Rt, Hn.SirAlex.F Foil, Arthur Percy, Earl
Arkwright, John Stanhope Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Balcarres, Lord Fletcher, J. S. Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Baldwin, Alfred Forster, Henry William Ratcliff, Major R. F.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Rawlinson,John Frederick Peel
Barrie, H.T. (Londonderry, N.) Haddock, George R. Remnant, James Farquharson
Beach, Hn. Michael Hughs.Hicks Hambro, Charles Eric Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Eeclesall)
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hamilton, Marquess of Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Bignold, Sir Arthur Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashford Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. Salter, Arthur Clavell
Bull, Sir William James Hay. Hon. Claude George Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Burdett-Coutts, W. Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Butcher, Samuel Henry Houston, Robert Paterson Starkey. John R.
Carlile, E. Hildred Kennaway, Rt.Hn.Sir John H. Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh.)
Castlereagh, Viscount Kimber, Sir Henry Stone. Sir Benjamin
Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W. Lane-Fox, G. R. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cecil, Evelyn (Anton Manor) M'Calmont. Colonel James Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Turnour, Viscount
Collings, Rt.Hn.J.(Birmingh'm Mildmay, Francis Bingham Valentia, Viscount
Craig, Capt. James (Down, E Morpeth, Viscount Walker, Col. W.H.(Laneashire)
Dalrymple, Viscount Nicholson, Win. G. (Petersfield Younger, George
Dixon-Hartland, SirFrcdDixon Nield, Herbert
Doughty, Sir George Parkes, Ebenezer TELLERS FOB THE AYES—Air.
Douglas. Rt. Hon. A. Akers. Pease, Herbert, Pike(Darlington Ashley and Mr. Marks.
NOES.
Abraham, Wm (Cork, N. E.) Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets, S.Geo.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Barker, John Bertram, Julius
Acland, Francis Dyke Barlow, JohnEmmottfSomerset Bethell, J. H. (Essex,Romford)
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Barlow Percy (Bedford) Bethell. T. R. (Essex, Maldon)
Ainsworth, John Stirling Barnard, E. B. Billson. Alfred
Alden, Percy Barnes, G. N. Birrell. Rt. Hon. Augustine
Allen, A. Acland(Christchurch) Beale, W. P. Black. Arthur W.(Bedfordshire
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Beaumont. E. Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E)
Ashton, Thomas Gair Beaumont, Hn.W.C. B.(Hexhm Bowerman, C. W.
Asquith, Rt.Hn.HerbertHenry Beck, A. Ceil Brace, William
Astbury. John Meir Bell, Richard Bramsdon, T. A.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Bellairs, Carlyon Branch, James
Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury,E.) Benn, SirJ.Williams(Deronp'rt Brigg, John
Bright, J. A. Glover, Thomas M'Killop, W.
Brocklehurst. W. B. Goddard, Daniel Ford M'Micking, Major G.
Brodie, H. C. Gooch, George Peabody Maddison, Frederick
Brooke, Stopford Grant, Corrie Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Brunner, J. F. L.(Lancs.,Leigh) Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Marnham, F, J.
Brunner, Rt.HnSirJ.T. (Chesh. Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)
Bryce, Rt.Hn.James(Aberdeen Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Massie, J.
Bryce, J. A. (InvernessBurghs) Gulland, John W. Masterman, C. F. G.
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Meagher, Michael
Buekmaster, Stanley O. Hall, Frederick Menzies, Walter
Burke, E. Haviland- Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis Micklem, Nathaniel
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Molteno, Percy Alport
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) Money, L. G. Chiozza
Buxton, Rt.Hn.SydneyCharles Hart-Davies, T. Montagu, E. S.
Byles, William Pollard Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Mooney, J. J.
Cairns, Thomas Harwood, George Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Cameron, Robert Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Morrell, Philip
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Haworth, Arthur A. Murnaghan, George
Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnight Hazel, Dr. A. E. Murphy, John
Cawley. Frederick Helme, Norval Watson Murray, James
Chance, Frederick William Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Myer, Horatio
Cheetham, John Frederick Henry, Charles S. Nannetti, Joseph P.
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.) Napier, T. B.
Churchill, Winston Spencer Hobart, Sir Robert Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)
Clarke, C. Goddard Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Nicholls, George
Cleland, J. W. Hodge, John Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r
Clough, W. Hogan, Michael Nolan, Joseph
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Holden, E. Hopkinson Norton, Captain Cecil William
Collins.SirWm. J. (S.Pancras,W. Hooper, A. G. Nussey, Thomas Willans
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Horniman, Emslie John Nuttall, Harry
Corbett, C.H(Sussex,E.Grinst'd Horridge, Thomas Gardner O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Hudson, Walter O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)
Cowan, W. H. Hyde, Clarendon O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Cox, Harold Idris, T. H. W. O'Grady, J.
Cremer, William Randal Illingworth, Percy H. O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)
Crosfield, A. H. Isaacs, Rufus Daniel O'Mara, James
Dalmeny, Lord Jenkins, J. O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Dalziel, James Henry Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Parker, James (Halifax)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Jones, SirD.Brynmor (Swansea Partington, Oswald
Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Jones, Leif (Appleby Paul, Herbert
Davies, W. Howell, (Bristol S.) Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)
Delany, William Jowett, F. W. Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Kearley, Hudson E. Perks, Robert William
Dickinson, W.H.(St,pancras,N Kekewich, Sir George Philipps,J.Wynford(Pembroke)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Kelley, George D. Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Kennedy, Vincent Paul Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Donelan, Captain A. King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Pirie, Duncan V.
Duckworth, James Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James Pollard, Dr.
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness Laidlaw, Robert Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh.Central)
Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster Price, Robt. John (Norfolk, E.)
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Radford, G. H.
Dunne, MajorE.Martin(Walsall Lambert, George Rainy, A. Rolland
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Lamont, Norman Raphael, Herbert H.
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Edwards, Frank (Radnor) Layland-Barratt, Francis Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro')
Elibank, Master of Leese, Sir Josej>hF.(Accrington Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral) Redmond, William (Clare)
Erskine, David C. Levy, Maurice Rees, J. D.
Esmonde, Sir Thomas Lewis, John Herbert Rendall, Athelstan
Eve, Harry Trelawney Lockwood, Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R. Renton, Major Leslie
Everett, R. Lacey Lough, Thomas Richards, Thos. (W. Monmouth
Faber, G. H. (Boston) Lundon, W. Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mp'tn
Fenwick, Charles Lupton, Arnold Richardson, A.
Flynn, James Christopher Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk,B'ghs Ridsdale, E. A.
Freeman-Thomas, Freeman Mackarness, Frederic C. Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln)
Fuller, John Michael F. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Fullerton, Hugh MacVeagh Jeremiah (Down, S. Robertson, Rt.Hn. E. (Dundee)
Gibb, James (Harrow) MacVeagh, Chas. (Donegal, E.) Robertson.SirG.Scott (Bradf'rd
Gill A. H. M'Callum, John M. Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Ginnell, L. M'Crae, George Robinson, S.
Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn M'Kean, John Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Roe, Sir Thomas Stuart, James (Sunderland) Watt, H. Anderson
Rowlands, J. Sullivan, Donal Weir, James Galloway
Runciman, Walter Surmmerbell, T. White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Taylor, John W. (Durham) White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland) Taylor, Theodore C (Radcliffe) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Whitehead, Rowland
Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Sears, J. B. Thomas, DavidAlfred(Merthyr Wiles, Thomas
Seely, Major J. B. Thompson,J.W.H. (Somerset.E. Wilkie, Alexander
Shackleton, David James Tomkinson, James Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Torrance, Sir A. M. Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarth'n
Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) Toulmin, George Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Shipman, Dr. John G. Trevelyan, Charles Philips Williamson, A.
Simon, John Allsebrook Ure, Alexander Wilson, Hn. C.H.W.(Hull, W.)
Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John Verney, F. W. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.
Sloan, Thomas Henry Vivian, Henry Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Wads worth, J. Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh.,N)
Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Waldron, Laurence Ambrose Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Snowden, P. Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Soames, Arthur Wellesley Walsh, Stephen Winfrey, R.
Soares, Ernest J. Walters, John Tudor Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk,Mid)
Stanger, H. Y. Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S. Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh. Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) Woodhouse, SirJT(Huddersf'd
Stcadman, W. C. Ward,John (Stoke upon Trent) Young, Samuel
Stewart, Halley (Greenock) Wardle, George J.
Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Strachey, Sir Edward Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Straus, B. S. (Mile End) Wason, John C. (Orkney) Pease.
Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Waterlow, D. S.

Question put, and agreed to.

MR. HARMOOD-BANNER

, in moving as a new clause that "It shall be the duty of the clerk of the county council or the town clerk to supply free of charge all forms required for the carrying out of this Act," said he did not know whether he had the consent of the right hon. Gentleman.

MR. HARCOURT

said he had already promised it.

MR. HARMOOD-BANNER

Then I do not move.

*MR. STAVELEY HILL (Staffordshire, Kingswinford)

, in moving a clause imposing upon clerks of county councils and town clerks penalties for wilful neglect to carry out the provisions of the Act, hoped it would receive the acceptance of the Government. It could not be called destructive in any shape or form, and it was not moved with any feeling of hostility to the town clerks or clerks of county councils. It was intended to apply only in those cases where the officials being town clerks or clerks of county councils had acted wilfully. It was unusual and almost unprecedented to introduce legislation which, while it imposed heavy penalties on persons who were guilty of a breach of the measure, placed no penalties on the officials with whom the responsibility of marking the register rested and by whose wilful neglect heavy punishments would fall on voters. It was true that the officials in question, being clerks to county councils and town clerks, were already hardworked, and he would like to have seen the responsibilty put upon others, but as the Government intended them to perform these duties there should be some penalties such as this clause proposed. New clause— Any clerk of the county council or town clerk who shall wilfully neglect to carry out the provisions of this Act or any part thereof or who shall be wilfully guilty of any breach in the execution of this Act shall for every such offence be liable to pay, by way of fine, a sum of money not exceeding five pounds, nor less than twenty shillings, to be imposed by and at the discretion of any barrister holding any court for the revision of any list of the parish or township of any such clerk of the county council or town clerk."—(Mr. Staveley Hill.) Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed "That the clause be read a second time."

MR. HARCOURT

said he had already stated that there should be a penalty, and obviously there must be one. But the method proposed by the hon. Gentleman was not the way to do it. Probably the proper way was to impose the same penalties as those imposed on the voter under the Act of 1843, and he would see that that was done.

Question put, and negatived.

LORD BALCARRES(Lancashire, Chorley) moved the following clause standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Newport Division of Shropshire: "The Clerk of the Crown shall, on demand, supply a certificate, signed by him, certifying the name and address and qualification of any elector who has voted at a Parliamentary election in any constituency in any county or borough and the date upon which such election was held. The fee for such certificate shall not exceed one shilling."

New clause— The Clerk of the Crown shall, on demand, supply a certificate, signed by him, certifying the name and address and qualification of any elector who has voted au a Parliamentary election in any constituency in any county or borough and the date upon which such election was held. The fee for such certificate shall not exceed one shilling."—(Lord Balcarres.)

Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

MR. HARCOURT

did not think it would be right to give anyone the power to demand —merely out of curiosity it might be—to know if a certain elector had voted. Those who were responsible for the matter know who voted, and he could not accept an Amendment to permit the public to demand this information.

MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD

fancied this clause had been proposed under a misapprehension. It would be impossible for the Clerk of the Crown to find out the information and to give any such certificate, and he would therefore suggest that although it might be very desirable that such information should be obtainable this was not the way in which it could be brought about.

LORD BALCARRES

said he would withdraw the clause by the permission of the Committee.

New clause, by leave, withdrawn.

*MR. ASHLEY(Lancashire, Blackpool) moved the following new clause: — Notwithstanding anything in Section 64 of The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, contained, no person registered as a Parliamentary elector in any constituency, but debarred by Section 1 of this Act from voting in that constituency in any election, shall be held to be an elector in that election and constituency within the meaning of that Act. He said he wished to insert this clause in order to remove certain disabilities that would be inflicted upon the plural voter if this Bill were carried. Section 7 of the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, imposed certain restrictions on candidates, and prevented them from making certain payments to electors for the hire of rooms, carriages, and similar purposes, the reason, of course, being that there should not be bribery. By Section 64 an elector was defined as a person who was on the register. If this Bill passed The plural voter would be put under a disability as compared with the elector with only vote, because in the constituencies in which he was not allowed to vote he would be debarred under the Act of 1883 from using his house or windows for the exhibition of bills to further the candidature of one side or the other. He was sure the right hon. Gentleman I did not wish to deprive the plural voter, not only of his second, third, or fourth vote, but also of the opportunity of earning an honest penny in a constituency in which he was not allowed to vote.

New clause— Notwithstanding anything in Section 64 of The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, contained, no person registered as a Parliamentary elector in any constituency, but debarred by [Section 1 of this Act from voting in that constituency in any election, shall be held to be an elector in that election and constituency within the meaning of that Act."—(Mr. Ashley.)

Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

MR. HARCOURT

said he quite understood the hon. Gentleman's view. He wished to be able to treat a plural voter who was not an effective plural voter in a constituency, or to hire him for the purpose of exposing Bills. That was perfectly reasonable, only the clause was a little too wide. If the hon. Gentleman would alter the last part of his clause so as to read "within the meaning of Sections 1 and 7 of that Act," he would accept it.

MR. LYTTELTON (St. George's, Hanover Square)

said the right hon. Gentleman had omitted to consider the important part of the Amendment which was to prevent the operation of this Bill diminishing the number of electors in respect of whom the election expenses were measured.

MR. HARCOURT

said that if the right hon. Gentleman's view was pressed that the clause would create a hardship in this respect he feared that it would be impossible for him to accept the Amendment at all.

LORD R. CECIL

said that he was unable to understand the reference of the right hon. Gentleman to "Section 1" of the Corrupt Practices Act. His hon. friend who moved the new clause desired to give refreshments to electors who were not going to vote, but in Suction 1 it was provided that an elector might be treated to refreshment provided that it was not done with a corrupt object and for the purpose of influencing his vote. There was not the slightest objection to giving refreshments to an elector unless it was done with the intention of influencing votes, and that ought to be forbidden whether the man was an elector or not. There had been cases in which the charge had been that refreshments had been given to a person not for his own vote, but to induce him to influence another person's vote. This was forbidden quite irrespective of the motive, the object being to reduce the expenses of the election. That was the point which had been raised by the right hon. Member for St. George's, Hanover Square. There were two quite distinct objects in view in the Corrupt Practices Act, one of them being to make elections purer and the other to make them cheaper. The object of limiting the expenses, of course, was to make elections cheaper. This object was met, by providing that they should only spend an amount proportionate to the number of electors. He sincerely hoped the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider the answer he had given.

MR. HARCOURT

said the noble Lord's argument had convinced him that he had somewhat misunderstood the point as to refreshment. He should have no objection to inserting in the last line the words "Section 7 of."

*MR. STUART WORTLEY

said that unfortunately the right hon. Gentleman had not taken the opportunity which this Amendment offered of doing something to carry out the idea of making elections cheaper than they had been hitherto. It was all very well for the right hon. Gentleman, who had not had much experience of contested elections, to say that there was a maximum limit and that nobody was bound to spend up to it. In his opinion the maximum limit was the candidate's greatest protection against unreasonable demands being made upon him, and it was an unreasonable thing that poisons not effectively on the register, and not capable of being canvassed, should be counted in assessing the candidate s expenses. He happened to be a Member of the House when Sir Henry James introduced his Bill in 1883, and he knew quite well what was intended by that distinguished statesman. His intention was that the maximum should be a protection to the candidate against unnecessary expenditure. Anything which tended to lower the maximum limit tended to limit the expenses of elections, and he was sorry the Government had not gone along that path in this matter.

MR. ARTHUR HENDERSON (Durham, Barnard Castle)

said that those who had been engaged in elections recently know they had had to make repeated attempts to have the costs of elections taxed because they found a disposition on the part of returning officers to charge upon the highest possible scale. This was a question in which Labour representatives were particularly interested, for they had found out by experience that the cost of elections was almost more than many of their candidates could afford. If they were going to create a new situation by having 5,000 or 6,000 pluralists in one constituency denied the opportunity of voting—and he did not disagree with the principle of the Bill—if they were going to disfranchise them, certainly they ought not to count those who were disfranchised in order to total up the already too high charges imposed upon Parliamentary candidates. He thought the Government would be acting wisely if they accepted the principle of making it impossible for any returning officer to charge for any elector who under this Act had been made a non-elector in the particular constituency.

MR. HARCOURT

said he was very much in favour of decreasing the cost of elections in every possible way. The difficulty was that the plural voter whom they wanted to get at would not be marked in every constituency. This brought them back to the point whether they should mark the voter where he had selected to vote or at all the places where he was not to vote and the Committee had already decided against the latter alternative.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said the argument which the right hon. Gentleman advanced in one of his earlier speeches was that after all there was no great hardship involved in this proposal, because no man was obliged to spend up to the limit of the maximum laid down by the Act. Nobody who remembered the Act of 1883 could have any doubt as to what had always been the fundamental object of Parliament in regard to this matter. It was a question of the amount they were to be permitted to spend, but Parliament had something more than that in view. Parliament at that time took, and rightly took, the line that the enormous cost of elections was becoming a perfect scandal, and was having the effect of preventing many persons from standing as candidates who would probably have become valuable Members of the House. That was one of the great motives of both sides of the House in dealing with the Bill of 1883. It was felt at that time that there should not be this unlimited ex- penditure. During one of the earlier debates upon this Bill he gave his own constituency as an illustration. No doubt it was an extreme case, but there were many other cases of the same character. There were more than 30,000 electors in the City of London and the vast majority of them were pluralist voters. They voted in the City of London because it was their place of business or because they happened to possess some other qualification. When this Bill passed he did not doubt that an enormous number of the electors in his constituency would select to vote for their places of residence, and not for their places of business in the City. Therefore the diminution in the total number of voters in the City of London would be immense. No man could say what it would be, but he would not be at all surprised if only 10,000 electors remained. His hon. friend and himself who represented the City at the present time, if they were the candidates at the next election—and he hoped they would be—would find that their scale of expenses would be calculated not on the 10,000 electors who would be able to vote, but on the 30,000 voters who were on the register. That was the absolute construction of this clause. The proposal might be difficult to carry out, but it must be one of two things—either this Bill was started on absolutely impossible lines to begin with, or else there had not been an adequate amount of thought and consideration in order to discover some way of avoiding this difficulty. He would suggest that the best plan would be to read the clause a second time and then see whether they could not amend it in such a way as would meet the objections, not to the principle, but to the way in which the principle was proposd to carried out.

Clause read a second time.

Amendment proposed to the proposed new clause— After the word 'of' in the last line to insert the words, 'Section 7 of.'"—(The Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said that if this Amendment were carried nothing would be done to remedy the grievance which was admitted on both sides of the House. What was more, nothing would be done to make this Bill conform to the policy adopted in 1883. He thought the least the Government could do was to show why it was impossible for them to deal with a situation which everybody admitted ought to be dealt with.

MR. ASQUITH

said that everybody would like to reduce the expenses at elections. He should very much like to reduce the maximum scale under the Act of 1883, and certainly those sitting on the Ministerial side of the House would have no objection whatever to any proposal to carry out that policy. He was not charging the right hon. Gentleman with inconsistency, but he was glad to find that he was in that frame of mind. As his right hon. friend in charge of the Bill had pointed out, the only reason why the Government limited the Amendment was that they could not do otherwise consistently with the decision at which the Committee had already arrived. They had decided that the plural voter was to select the constituency in which he would vote, and it was only upon the register in that division that his name would be starred. Therefore, in regard to registers in places where he did not intend to vote, how could a Parliamentary candidate or his agent determine how many on the register would vote in that division? The only way would be for the Committee to reverse the decision at which it had arrived. That would involve imposing upon every plural voter not only the obligation to send in a selection notice, but also notices to all the other constituencies in which he did not intend to vote. That was the only possible way to carry out the Amendment as the Bill now stood in the form in which it had been passed by the Committee. This new clause would be, in fact, a reversal of the decision they had already arrived at.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

submitted that as the Committee had decided a good many things which the Government admitted would have to be altered on the Report stage, it was quite reasonable to ask that one more alteration should be made. He agreed that it would be a great hardship to require a voter, in addition to sending notice of the selected constituency, to send notice to every other constituency where he was qualified that he did not intend to vote there. But the Committee had not decided, and he hoped they would not decide, that plural voters should be required to do that. Somebody else would be bound to do that work which, he contended, it would not be right to impose on the plural voter. It was perfectly right that he should not be harassed in that way. The Government proposed to leave that work to electioneering agents. That was going to add enormously to the burden of every sitting Member who paid his expenses in a contest in his own constituency. That ought not to be so, and at a later stage he would propose that the Government ought to discharge the duty, it being one which ought properly to be done by thorn. The answer given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the thing could not be done would not stand examination.

MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD

said that if the Committee adopted the clause, and not the Amendment, it would be beneficial in many different ways. By getting rid of all plural voters who were not entitled to vote a great many desirable reforms would be accomplished. The first would be that the returning officer's expenses, which he was entitled to charge against the candidates, would be cut down in accordance with the number voting in the constituency. He could not imagine a more desirable reform than that. If in the City of London the number was cut down from 30,000 to 10,000 what sense would there be in allowing the returning officer to charge on 30,000? He ought to charge only on the actual number able to vote in the constituency. He had in his mind's eye a constituency in Liverpool which would be reduced under the action of this Bill from 9,000 to 5,000. The effect of that should be to relieve the candidates from paying the extra money. It seemed to him to be essential, if the Bill was to accomplish any of the objects claimed for it, that the Government should take some means to provide a net register of the actual number entitled to vote. He respectfully submitted to the Committee that they ought not to limit this clause to Clause 7 of the Corrupt Practices Act. The only possible reason why the Government opposed the Amendment was that, having made the machinery of the Bill in an unworkable and unsatisfactory form, now they simply said, "We cannot carry out this reform because our machinery will not enable us to do so." That was not an answer. What the Government had to do was to remodel their machinery.

SIR E. CARSON

pointed out that in future the register would not be a register of persons entitled to vote, but of some entitled and some not entitled to vote. There would, therefore, be no register within the meaning of Section 64 of the Corrupt Practices Act of 1883. That being so, how was a candidate to regulate his expenses as required by the Act? A more ridiculous clause to put into an Act of Parliament it would be hard to conceive. He had no doubt that when they came to the Report stage, when they were not bound by what had been decided in Committee, the matter might be rectified; hut it was no answer to the arguments urged on that side of the House to say that the Committee had passed this matter entirely in ignorance of what would be the effect of it. The very object of the Report stage was to afford an opportunity for overruling things which had been done in Committee. As he understood the procedure of this House there was nothing to prevent the Government or anybody else moving on Report an Amendment on a question which had been otherwise dealt with in Committee. It was a mere technicality to say that a vote of the House had already been given, and no answer had been made from the Government benches on the merits of this question.

MR. ASQUITH

said it was not a mere technical point to urge that the Committee had already come to a decision. The matter went to the very root and structure of the Amendment. It should be remembered that the principle of the Bill was that the elector should select the constituency in which he would vote. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had started a fresh hare by discovering a new definition of the word "elector" in the Corrupt Practices Act of 1883. This was to the effect that the expression "elector" was "any person who might be for the time being on the roll of voters, and who might vote at the time of an election." The right hon. and learned Gentleman's argument was that when they came to this measure a plural voter who had made his selection, and had thereby debarred himself from voting in any other constituency, would not be an elector within that definition. What did "elector" mean? Anyone whose name was on the register for the time being, whether entitled to vote or not. According to all the rules of legal construction that person was an elector within the meaning of the Act. He could not help expressing his surprise that an ex-Law Officer of the Crown, and one of those University representatives of whose value so much had been said, should have been misleading poor unenlightened members of the Committee in the way the right hon. Gentleman had endeavoured to do on the construction of a plain English word. He could assure the Committee that there was no substance of any sort in the contention put forward by the right hon. and learned Gentleman.

SIR E. CARSON

said that notwithstanding the strong statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer he still adhered to the construction which he had put on the Act. When this Bill passed the register would no longer contain the names of those entitled to vote, but thousands of names of those who, by the Bill, had been disfranchised. Surely the matter was too plain for argument. As to the sneer the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made use of to him as a mere University Member, he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that he did not mind it in the least; it did not affect him at all. Whether University Member or Chancellor of the Exchequer he would place no meaning upon an Act of Parliament other than that which he hold conscientiously, and he thought it was rather unworthy of the right hon. Gentleman to suggest that he was purposely trying to mislead the Committee. [MINISTERIAL cries of "He did not."]

MR. ASQUITH

denied that he had made any such suggestion.

SIR E. CARSON

maintained, without fear of contradiction by anyone who liked to read the measure, whether he was a lawyer or not, that there would be no longer a register which came within the definition of the Act of 1883.

*MR. CAVE

said he entirely appreciated the point raised by the right hon. and learned Gentleman which he thought ought to be settled either now or on the Report stage. When the Act of 1883 was passed, it fixed a maximum amount of expenses to be incurred in an election, and a maximum number of clerks, messengers, and committee rooms, the maximum being determined in each case by the number of electors entitled to vote; but when this Bill was passed the number of electors entitled to vote in any particular constituency would be diminished, and they ought to provide for diminishing the amount of expenses. For himself he would rather have the clause in the form in which his hon. friend had moved it, but if it was to be amended by confining its operation to particular sections of the Act of 1883, he would propose that Sections 1 and 14 should be added to Section 7. He begged to move accordingly.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 295;

AYES.
Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.) Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E.) Cowan, W.H.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Bowerman, C. W. Cox, Harold
Acland, Francis Dyke Brace, William Cremer, William Randal
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Bramsdon, T. A. Crosfield, A. H.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Branch, James Dalziel, James Henry
Alden, Percy Brigg, John Davies, Ellis William (Eiffon)
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Bright, J. A. Davies, Timothy (Fulham)
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Brocklehurst, W. B. Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)
Ashton, Thomas Gair Brodie, H. C. Delany, William
Asquith, Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry Brooke, Stopford Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S)
Atherley-Jones, L. Brunner, J.F. L. (Lanes., Leigh) Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Brunner,Rt.Hn.SirJ.T.(Chesh.) Donelan, Captain A.
Baker, J. A. (Finsbury, E.) Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs) Duckworth, James
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Buckimaster. Stanley O. Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)
Barker, John Burke, E. Haviland- Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Burns, Rt. Hon. John Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)
Barnard, E. B. Burnyeat, W. J. D. Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)
Barnes, G. N Buxton, Rt.Hn.SydneyChas. Edwards, Frank (Radnor)
Beale, W. P. Byles, William Pollard Elibank, Master of
Beauchamp, E. Cairns, Thomas Ellis, Rt. Hn. John Edward
Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B(Hexham Cawley, Frederick Erskine, David C.
Bell, Richard Cheetham, John Frederick Esmonde, Sir Thomas
Bellairs, Carlyon Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Eve, Harry Trelawney
Benn, SirJ.Williams(Devonp'rt Clarke, C. Goddard Everett, R. Lacey
Benn,W(T'w'r Hamlets,S.Geo.) Cleland, J. W. Faber, G. H. (Boston)
Bertram, Julius Clough, W. Flynn, James Christopher
Bethall, J. H. (Essex, Romford) Cobbold, Felix Thornley Fuller, John Michael F.
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Collins, SirW. J. (S.Paneras.W Fullerton, Hugh
Billson, Alfred Corbett, CH(Sussex,EGrinst'd. Gibb, James (Harrow)
Black, A. W. (Bedfordshire) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Gill, A. H.
Boland, John Cotton. Sir H. J. S. Ginnell L.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— To leave out the words 'Section 7' and insert the words 'Sections 1, 7 and 14.'"—(Mr. Cave.) Question proposed, "That the words 'Section 7' stand part of the proposed Amendment.

MR. ASQUITH

said that perhaps the hon. Member would leave this matter over; if so, he was willing carefully to consider what additional sections of the Corrupt Practices Act might be properly included in the Bill.

SIR E. CARSON

said it was understood of course that they did not want any amendment.

MR. ASQUITH

said he understood that.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question put, "That the words 'Section 7 of' be there inserted in the proposed new clause."

Noes, 58. (Division List No. 361.)

Glover, Thomas Marnham, F. J. Shackleton, David James
Goddard, Daniel Ford Massie, J. Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)
Gooch, George Peabody Masterman, C. F. G. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Grant, Corrie Mcagher, Michael Simon, John Allsebrook
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Menzies, Walter Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Gulland, John W. Micklem, Nathaniel Smyth, Thos. F. (Leitrim, S.)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Molteno, Percy Alport Snowden, P.
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Money, L. G. Chiozza Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Hall, Frederick Montagu, E. S. Soares, Ernest J.
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis Mooney, J. J. Stanger, H. Y.
Hardy, George, A. (Suffolk) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh
Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) Murnaghan, George Steadman, W. C.
Hart-Davies, T. Murphy, Jolm Steadman. W. C.
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Murray, James Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Myer, Horatio Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Haslam, Lewis (Momnouth) Nannetti, Joseph P. Strachey, Sir Edward
Haworth, Arthur A. Napier, T. B. Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Helme, Norval Watson Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Nicholls, George Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Henry, Charles S. Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doneast'r Sullivan, Donal
Higham, John Sharp Nolan, Joseph Summerbell. T.
Hobart, Sir Robert Nortan, Capt. Cecil William Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Nussey, Thomas Willans Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Hodge, John Nuttall, Harry Taylor, Theodore C (Radcliffe)
Hogan, Michael O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Holden, E. Hopkinson O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Hooper, A. G. O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Thompson,J.W.H(Somerset,E.)
Horniman, Emslie John O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Tomkinson, James
Horridge, Thomas Gardner O'Kelly,James(Roscommon N. Torrance, Sir A. M.
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Malley, William Toulmin, George
Hudson, Walter O'Mara, James Ure, Alexander
Hyde, Clarendon O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Verney, F. W.
Idris, T. H. W. Parker, James (Halifax) Vivian, Henry
Jardine, Sir J. Partington, Oswald Wadsworth, J.
Jenkins, J. Paul, Herbert Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Jones, Leif (Appleby) Pearce, William (Limehouse) Walsh, Stephen
Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester) Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Jowett, F. W. Philipps, J.Wynford(Pembroke Walton, Joseph (Barnsloy)
Kelley, George D. Pickersgill, Edward Hare Ward, John(Stokc-upon-Trent)
Kennedy, Vincent Paul Pirie, Duncan V. Wardle, George J.
Kincaid-Smith, Captain Pollard, D. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney
King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) Waterlow, D. S.
Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E. Watt, K. Anderson
Laidlaw, Robert Radford, G. H. Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Lamb, Ernest H. (Rchester) Rea, Russtill (Gloucester) Weir, James Galloway
Lamont, Norman Rea, Walter Russell (Scarhoro' White, George (Xorfolk)
Layland-Barratt, Francis Redmond, John K. (Watcrford White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Leese, Sir J. F. (Acarington) Redmond, William (Clare) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich Recs, J. D. White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirrel) Rendall, Athelstan Whitchead, Rowland
Levy, Maurice Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Lewis, John Herbert Richards,T. F.(Wolverh'm't'n) Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Lough, Thomas Richardson, A. Wiles, Thomas
Lundou, W. Ridsdale, E. N. Wilkie, Alexander
Lupton, Arnold Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln) Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Lynch, H. B. Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Williams. L. (Carmarthen)
Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs) Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Maclean, Donald Robertson,SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd. Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.
MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. Robinson, S. Wilson, P. W. (St. Paneras, S.)
MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.) Robson, Sir William Snowdon Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
M'Callum, John M. Rowlands, J. Wood. T. M'Kinnon
M'Crae, George Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Young, Samuel
M'Kean, John Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Yoxall, James Heury
M'Killop, W. Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel
M'Micking, Major G. Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester
Maddison, Frederick Scott, A.H.(Ashton underLyne)
Manfield, Harry (Northants) Sears, J. E.
NOES.
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir A. F. Forster,Henry William Ratcliff, Major R. F.
Balcarres, Lord Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Rawlinson, John Fredk. Peel
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Haddock, George R. Roberts, S. (Sheffield,Ecclesall)
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N.) Hamilton, Marquess of Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Bridgeman, W. Clive Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Bull, Sir William James Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. Salter, Arthur Clavell
Butcher, Samuel Henry Hay, Hon. Claude George Smith, F. E.(Liverpool,Walton)
Carlile, E. Hildred Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) Starkey, John R.
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Ed. H. Houston, Robert Paterson Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh.)
Castlereagh, Viscount Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Chamberlain, Rt,Hn.J.A(Worc. Lane-Fox, G. R. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Lockwood, Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R. Valentia, Viscount
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) M'Calmont, Colonel James Walker, Col. W. H.(Lancashire)
Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.) Marks, H. H. (Kent) Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Dalrymple, Viscount Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Younger, George
Doughty, Sir George Nicld, Horbert
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Parkes, Ebenezer TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Fell, Arthur Pease, HerbcrtPike(Darlington Cave and Mr. Ashley.
Finch, Rt. Hn. Goerge H. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Fletcher, J. S. Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Question proposed, "That the clause, as amended, be added to the Bill."

*MR. H. H. MARKS

said he desired to add at the end of the clause a definition of an elector, because in his judgment the limiting words referring to Clause 7 took away all the value of the clause and reduced it to a nullity.

MR. ASQUITH

, as a point of order, said that Section 7, and only Section 7, of the Act would apply in these cases. Therefore it was only in regard to Section 7 that this clause was material.

The CHAIRMAN

thought the Amendment which the hon. Member suggested was out of order.

MR. CLAUDE HAY (Shoreditch, Hoxton)

thought the Committee were entitled to some further explanation in reference to this clause. The right hon. Gentleman had told them that Clause 7 was the only clause which would apply, but he did not tell them that Clause 64 had no bearing upon Clause 7. Of course he should bow to what the right hon. Gentleman said as a lawyer, but to say that, Clause 7 having been incorporated, other clauses having a bearing on Clause 7 were not to affect the Bill was begging the point Therefore he asked the right hon. Gentleman to show how and why the matters dealt with in Clause 64 were absolutely rendered out of ken by the incorporation of Clause 7. If as a lawyer the right hon. Gentleman was satisfied, well and good. It was a matter which a lawyer would know but a layman would not, though he thought it was a question upon which a layman was entitled to have an answer.

MR. ASQUITH

said if the hon. Gentleman had heard the answer given to the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Kingston he would have known exactly that only Section 7 of the Corrupt Practices Act was to apply to this Act. The other sections would certainly not apply. The hon. Member would see that the clause began with the words— Notwithstanding anything in Section 64 of the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, contained, no person registered as a parliamentary elector in any constituency, but debarred by Section 1 of this Act from voting in that constituency in any election, shall be held to be an elector in that election and constituency: Then came the limiting words— Within the meaning of Section 7 of that Act.

*MR. H. H. MARKS

said that it was on account of the insertion of the limiting words that he opposed the clause in its present form. He did so because the inclusion of these words took away the whole value of the clause. It was omasculated and every vestige of good that it possessed was taken from it. For these reasons he should vote against its adoption.

IR E. CARSON

said he would like to suggest that if this clause was to be added to the Bill the right hon. Gentleman should consider the advisability of redrafting it. At present it read in a most peculiar way.

MR. ASQUITH

agreed that that was necessary.

Question put, "That the clause, as amended, be added to the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 294; Noes, 58. (Division List No. 362.)

Murphy, John Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Tomkinson, James
Murray, James Roberts. G. H. (Norwich) Torrance Sir A. M.
Myer, Horatio Robertson.Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee) Toulmin. George
Nannetti, Joseph P. Robertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd Ure, Alexander
Napier, T. B. Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Verney, F. W.
Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Robinson, S. Vivian, Henry
Nicholls, George Robson, Sir William Snowdon Wadsworth, J.
Nicholson,Charles N.(Doneast'r Rowlands, J. Waldron, Laurence Ambuose
Nolan, Joseph Runciman, Walter Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Rutherford, V. H.(Brentford) Walsh, Stephen
Nussey, Thomas Willans Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) Walton, Sir JohnL. (Leeds, S.)
Nuttall, Harry Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent
O' Brien, Kendal(TippcraryMid Schwann, SirC.E.(Manchester) Wardle, George, J.
O'Bren, Patrick (Kilkenny) Scott, A. H. (Ashton-und.-Lyne Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan;
O'Connor, James (Wicklow,W. Sears, J. E. Wason,John Catheart(Orkney)
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Shackleton, David James Waterlow, D. S.
O'Kelly, James (Roseommon.N.) Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Watt, H. Anderson
O'Malley. William Shapman, Dr. John G. Wedgwood, Josiah C.
O'Mara, James Simon, John Allsebrook Weir, James Galloway
O'Shaughnessy, P. J Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie White, George (Norfolk)
Parker, James (Halifax) Smyth, Thomas F.(Leitrim, S.) White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Partington. Oswald Snowden, P. White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Paul, Herbert Soames, Arthur Wellesley White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Pearee, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Soares, Ernest J. Whitehead, Rowland
Pearce, William (Limehouse) Stanger, H. Y. Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Pearson, Sir W.D.(Colchester) Stanley.Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) Wlittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Philipps,J.Wynford(Pembroke Steadman, W. C. Wiles, Thomas
Pickorsgill, Edward Hare Stewart, Halley (Greenock) Williams, J.-Glamorgan)
Pirie, Duncan V. Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) Williams,Llewelyn(Carm'rth'n)
Price, C.E. (Edinb'rgh.Central) Strachey, Sir Edward Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)
Price, Robert John(Norfolk,E.) Straus, B. S. (Mile End) Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Radford, G. H. Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh.N.)
Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Stuart, James (Sunderland) Wilson, P.W.(St. Pancras, S.)
Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' Sullivan, Donal Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Redmond, John E.(Waterford) Summerbell, T. Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Redmond, William (Clare) Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) Young, Samuel
Rees, J. D. Taylor, John W. (Durham) Yoxall, James Henry
Rendall, Athelstan Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)
Richards,Thomas(W. Moron' th Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Richards,T. F. (Wolverh'mpton Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Richardson, A. Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr Pease.
Ridsdale, E. A. Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset
NOES.
Acland-Hood.RtHn.SirAlex.F. Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Randles, Sir John Seurrah
Ashley, W. W. Fletcher, J. S. Ratcliff, Major R. F.
Balcarres, Lord Forster, Henry William Rawlinson, JohnFrederickPeel
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Roberts, S. (Sheffield.Eeclesall)
Barrie, H.T. (Londonderry, N.) Had lock, George R. Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Bridgeman, W. Clive Hamilton, Marquess of Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Butcher, Samuel Henry Hardy,Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd. Salter, Ajrthur Clavell
Carlile, E. Hildred Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. Smith, F.E.(Liverpool,Walton)
Carson, Kt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hay, Hon. Claude George Starkey, John R.
Castlereagh, Viscount Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) Staveley-Hill, Henry(Staff'sh.)
Cave, George Houston, Robert Paterson Stone, Sir Benjamin
Chamberlain.Rt Hn.J.A(Worc. Kennaway.Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Lane-Fox, G. R. Thomson,W. Mitchell (Lanark)
Collings,Rt.Hn. J. (Birmingh'm Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Valentia, Viscount
Corbett. A. Cameron (Glasgow) Lockwood, Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R. Walker, CoL W.H.(Lancashire)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) M'Calmont, Colonel James Younger, George
Craig,Charles Curtis (Antrim,S. Meysey-Thompson, E. C.
Dalrymple, Viscount Nield, Herbert TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr
Doughty, Sir George Parkes, Ebenezer Marks and Sir William Bull.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Pease,Herbert Pike (Darlington
Fell, Arthur Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

SIR E. CARSON moved a new clause providing that where the name of a person was put upon the register for The first time, the clerk of the county council or town clerk should at once serve a notice of the fact on such person, warning him that if he was registered in any other district he must make a selection under the terms of this Bill. The object of the Amendment was to prevent, if possible, a number of people being disfranchised who had a qualification but who would not know what they had to do in regard to this Bill, and might not know whether their names appeared on the register.

Now clause— Where the name of any person is inserted on the register of Parliamentary voters for the first time the clerk of the county council or town clerk shall serve a notice of the fact on such person, and shall thereby give him notice that if he is registered in any other constituency it is necessary to serve a notice in accordance with and in the form and manner prescribed by the first section of this Act."—(Sir E. Carson.)

Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be road a second time."

MR. HARCOURT

said he spoke on a question almost exactly similar to this the previous night. It was impossible for the clerk to know whether it was the first time the name appeared on the register. He could not possibly accept the Amendment.

Question put, and negatived.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN moved the following now clause:— (1) The officer responsible for the printing of the Parliamentary register in each constituency, shall, as soon as such register is printed, send a copy of the register to the Local Government Board, and it shall be the duty of the Local Government Board to forthwith compare all such registers, and to mark the names of all plural voters with a distinguishing mark; (2) The register so marked shall be sent on or before the thirty-first day of December in each, year, to the returning officer of the constituency for which it was compiled, and every elector whose name appears on that register without such distinguishing mark shall be entitled to vote at elections in that constituency notwith- standing anything to the contrary in the provisions of this Act unless his name shall have been struck off by the revising barrister at the revision court. This Amendment, he said, was of very great importance. The Government, on the first clause of the Bill, had repeatedly stated when they insisted upon the selection being made that it was part of the principle of the Bill that the register should clearly show whether the person was entitled to vote, and that candidates should know who was an effective voter and who was not. The Bill, as it stood, would not give anyone that information. It left them all in complete doubt as to who were and who were not effective voters. In the second place his Amendment would enable them to limit the expenditure in proportion to the number of effective voters and not have it swollen by sham electors—sham in the sense that although their names appeared on the register and they had a qualification they would not under this Bill have the right to vote. The only department that could do this duty of chocking the registers was the Local Government Board, and that responsibility should fall upon the Government Department and not candidates.

New clause— (1) The officer responsible for the printing of the Parliamentary register in each constituency shall as soon as such register is printed send a copy of the register to the Local Government Board and it shall be the duty of the Local Government Hoard to forthwith compare all such registers and to mark the names of all plural voters with a distinguishing mark; (2) The register so marked shall be sent on or before the thirty-first day of December in each year to the returning officer of the constituency for which it was compiled, and every elector whose name appears on that register without such distinguishing mark shall be entitled to vote at elections in that constituency notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the provisions of this Act unless his name shall have been struck off by the revising barrister at the revision court."—(Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)

Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this clause be read a second time."

MR. HARCOURT

said the right hon. Gentleman proposed to set up a clearinghouse for voters. If that could be efficiently carried out it would be a good thing. He had always said that an ideal method would be to mark on the register against the plural voter's name "not to vote"; but he thought a simpler solution altogether would be to abolish property qualification and make it purely residential. The proposal for a clearing-house was one he could not promptly accept, because it could not be worked. He imagined the right hon. Gentleman had moved the new clause merely with a view to proving this Bill was ridiculous.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

That was a subsidiary object.

MR. HARCOURT

said he was certainly not inclined to throw the whole electoral system of the country and the organisation of the Local Government Board into the melting-pot in order merely to forward a subsidiary object of the right hon. Gentleman.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said the right hon. Gentleman had shown such a clear perception of the points at issue that he would ask leave to withdraw the clause at the present time, reserving his right to bring up the subject again.

New clause, by leave, withdrawn.

The CHAIRMAN

said the clause standing in the name of the hon. Member for Barnard Castle was out of order.

The clause in question was as follows:— Nothing in this Act shall deprive any elector of his right to vote who is registered for more than one constituency but who has a qualification in only one constituency, and who in no way is seeking to evade the provisions of this Act, provided that such elector declares that he has not voted in any other constituency during that election.

MR. ARTHUR HENDERSON

said the point involved in the clause had been discussed, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer was so impressed with the importance of doing something that he had promised the matter should be gone into. He had simply taken the precaution of putting the clause on the Paper so that it should have the consideration of the Committee.

The CHAIRMAN

said he thought the point in the Amendment had been discussed a great deal and had been previously decided.

MR. ARTHUR HENDERSON

said he understood the objection was that it was outside the scope of the Bill.

The CHAIRMAN

said one part of the clause certainly proposed something which was hostile to the principle of Clause 1.

MR. ARTHUR HENDERSON

said he did not seek to put in anything that was hostile to Clause 1, and he thought he would be able to show that he did not in in any way interfere with the principle of selection.

The CHAIRMAN

said that so far as he could see it certainly appeared that a man who had two qualifications and had not selected was to be able to vote, and that was contrary to the principle of the clause.

MR. ARTHUR HENDERSON

said he did not say the man who had two qualifications but who had only one and had been accidentally registered for another as well.

The CHAIRMAN

said the clause dealt with the man who had been registered in two places.

*MR. NIELD moved a new clause providing that Section 28, sub section 14 of the Parliamentary and Municipal Registration Act 1878, and the 5th section of the Registration Act 1885, should not apply in respect of any parson who should be required to make a selection under Clause 1 of this Act. There ought not to be duplicate marks on the register, which should be quite distinct and not confounded with the marks under the other Acts, which must inevitably cause confusion in regard to the registers, which were quite sufficiently difficult to understand at the present time.

MR. HARCOURT

said he did not see any reason for changing the system which with a single register in a single area had worked very well.

New clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— In Schedule, page 4, line 3, after the word 'you,' to insert the words 'to your knowledge.'"—(Mr. Cave.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— In Schedule, page 4, line 6, after '1861,' to insert the words 'and The Universities Election Amendment (Scotland) Act, 1881.'"—(Mr. Harcourt.)

MR. CLAUDE HAY

thought they were entitled to some explanation of this Amendment from the Lord Advocate.

MR. HARCOURT

said that the words were necessary in order to bring the Act into force in Scotland.

MR. CLAUDE HAY

hoped the Committee would insist upon a fuller explanation being given of this proposal on Report.

MR. BONAR LAW (Cambenvell, Dulwich)

thought it was treating the House of Commons with little less than contempt to propose an Amendment of this kind when there was no member of the Government present who was capable of explaining it.

SIR WILLIAM ROBSON

said that to anyone who had paid close attention to the wording of the Bill no explanation of this proposal would be necessary. They were simply proposing that in line 6 they should add those words, indicating that they were making the addition under two Acts instead of under one.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. CAVE

said the Amendment he had to propose was simply a consequential one. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed— In Schedule, page 4, line 8, after the word 'not' to insert the words 'to my knowledge."—(Mr. Cave.)

MR. HARCOURT

said he had no objection to the words, but he would like time to see whether the place proposed was the best to insert them.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered to-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 346.]

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Resolution of the House of the 4th August last.

Adjourned at half after Nine o'clock.