HC Deb 23 October 1906 vol 163 cc56-61
MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD (Liverpool, West Derby)

said he wished to bring forward, as touching the privileges of Members, the following Motion. "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the obstructions which have been placed in the House during the recess, whereby eleven seats appropriated for the use of Members near the Speaker's Chair have been obstructed, and a barricade erected in front of the same, and Members prevented from using them; whereby strangers are to be introduced above the Bar; also a further alteration, whereby Members are deprived of their right of introducing strangers on the right-hand side below the Gallery; and to report."


The hon. Member has not favoured me with any intimation of the fact that he was going to raise this question. I do not think this is a matter of privilege. It is a matter of the construction of the House. It is a very proper subject for consideration, but I do not think it is one that, raises a question of privilege, except in a very incidental manner.


May I submit that any obstruction to the use by any Member of any seat appropriated for the use of Members is a breach of privilege. I can give authority for it in Erskine May.


As I understand, the accommodation offered to Members is greater now than it was before the adjournment.


The second point of my Motion is that strangers are introduced above the Bar. This, I think, is contrary to all precedent, and requires the authority of the House before being permitted. I submit that it is a very serious breach of privilege. The Standing Orders are clear that notice is not required for a Question regarding a breach of privilege.


I know quite well that no notice to the House is required, but I think it has been customary to give private notice to the Speaker in order that he may have an opportunity of looking up the precedents and consulting the officers of the House. I am still of opinion that the matter ought not to be raised as a question of privilege, though it can very properly be raised, as the hon. Member suggests, by a Motion for a Select Committee.


said he had already arranged for a Supplementary Estimate to be placed before Parliament, which would give the requisite opportunity for discussing the matter.

LORD TURNOUR (Sussex, Horsham)

asked whether it was in order for any hon. Member so to alter the construction of the House that strangers could be introduced on the floor of the House above the Bar.


If the hon. Member thinks that strangers have been admitted into this House improperly, there is a course open to him under the Standing Orders—he can call attention to the fact that strangers are present.


The powers of ordering strangers to withdraw are strictly confined to strangers below the Bar and in the front gallery. There is this further anomaly, that we have actually got strangers here now above the Bar without the power of ordering them to withdraw.


The hon. Member has not in his mind the same Standing Order that I have.


As a protest against the action of the Government, I beg to give notice that I will call attention to the fact that I spy strangers.


asked when it was proposed to submit the Supplementary Estimate, which, it seemed, would afford the most convenient opportunity for discussing the subject.


was unable to say exactly when the Estimate would be produced. The alterations had been made in accordance with an intimation he gave during the discussion of the Vote for his own office, when he stated that unless some protest were raised he should assume there was general assent to the proposal. The alterations had added three seats to the accommodation provided for Members.

MR. CLAUDE HAY (Shoreditch, Hoxton)

Is it a matter of privilege that there are strangers above the Bar on the floor of the House?


I have pointed out already that if any hon. Member thinks strangers are present who he thinks ought not to be present, there is a course open to him.


I spy strangers.

Motion made, and Question put, "That strangers be ordered to withdraw."—(Viscount Turnour.)

The House divided:—Ayes, 61; Noes, 207. (Division List No. 319.)

Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F. Craik, Sir Henry MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Anstruther-Gray, Major Dalrymple, Viscount Magnus, Sir Philip
Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.HughO. Dixon-Hartland,Sir FredDixon Marks, H. H. (Kent)
Ashley, W. W. Doughty, Sir George Muntz, Sir Philip A.
Balcarres Lord Duncan,Robert(Lanark,Govan) Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)
Banner, John S. Harmood Fell, Arthur Nield, Herbert
Beach,Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks Fletcher, J. S. Parker, Sir Gilbert(Gravesend)
Bowles, G. Stewart Forster, Henry William Pease,HerbertPike(Darlington)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Carlile, E. Hildred Hay, Hon. Claude George Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Castlereagh, Viscount Helmsley, Viscount Roberts S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Cave, George Harvey,F.W.F.(BuryS.E'dm'ds) Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Chamberlain,Rt. Hn.J.A(Worc.) Houston, Robert Paterson Salter, Arthur Clavell
Channing, Francis Allston Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Sloan, Thomas Henry
Cochrane, Hon. Thos, H. A. E. Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.
Collings,Rt.Hn.J.(Birmingham) Lane-Fox, G. R. Starkey, John R.
Courthope, G. Loyd Long,Rt.Hn.Walter(Dublin,S.) Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh.)
Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Wilson, A. Stanley (York,E.R) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Watson Rutherford and Viscount Turnour.
Thomson, W. Mitchell (Lanark) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Thornton, Percy M. Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Tuke, Sir John Batty Younger, George
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Kearley, Hudson E.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.) Kekewich, Sir George
Agnew, George William Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N.) Kelley, George D.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. King, Alfred John (Knutsford)
Alden, Percy Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Kitson, Sir James
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Dobson, Thomas W. Laidlaw, Robert
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)
Barker, John Edwards, Clement Denbigh Lamont, Norman
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Layland-Barratt, Francis
Barnard, E. B. Elibank, Master of Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington)
Barnes, G. N. Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Lehmann, R. C.
Beauchamp, E. Erskine, David C. Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)
Bell, Richard Esmonde, Sir Thomas Levy, Maurice
Bellairs, Carlyon Everett, R. Lacey Lewis, John Herbert
Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R. Faber, G. H. (Boston) Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo. Ferens, T. R. Lupton, Arnold
Berridge, T. H. D. Field, William Lyell, Charles Henry
Bethell, J.H.(Essex, Romford) Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Lynch, H. B.
Billson, Alfred Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs)
Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire) Freeman-Thomas, Freeman Mackarness, Frederic C.
Boland, John Fuller, John Michael F. Maclean, Donald
Bottomley, Horatio Fullerton, Hugh Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Bowerman, C. W. Furness, Sir Christopher Macpherson, J. T.
Brace, William Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford,S. MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.
Bramsdon, T. A. Gill, A. H. MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)
Branch, James Gladstone, Rt.HnHerbertJohn M'Crae, George
Bright, J. A. Glover, Thomas M'Hugh, Patrick A.
Brodie, H. C. Goddard, Daniel Ford M'Iver,SirLewis(Edinburgh,W.
Brooke, Stopford Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) M'Killop, W.
Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs.,Leigh) Griffith, Ellis J. M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)
Brunner, Sir John T.(Cheshire) Gulland, John W. M'Micking, Major G.
Bryce, Rt.Hn.James(Aberdeen Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Maddison, Frederick
Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs) Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Mallet, Charles E.
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Hall, Frederick Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Burke, E. Haviland Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hardie, J. Keir (MerthyrTydvil) Markham, Arthur Basil
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Worc'r) Marks,G.Croydon(Launceston)
Buxton, Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles Hart-Davies, T. Marnham, F. J.
Byles, William Pollard Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Massie, J.
Cairns, Thomas Harwood, George Menzies, Walter
Cameron, Robert Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Micklem, Nathaniel
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Molteno, Percy Alport
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hedges, A. Paget Money, L. G. Chiozza
Chance, Frederick William Helme, Norval Watson Montagu, E. S.
Cheetham, John Frederick Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Mooney, J. J.
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Henry, Charles S. Morley, Rt. Hon. John
Churchill, Winston Spencer Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon.,S. Murnaghan, George
Clarke, C. Goddard Higham, John Sharp Murray, James
Clough, W. Hobart, Sir Robert Myer, Horatio
Clynes, J. R. Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Nicholls, George
Coats, Sir T.Glen(Renfrew, W.) Hodge, John Nicholson, Charles N.(Doncast'r
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset,N Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,EGrinst'd) Hudson, Walter O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Idris, T. H. W. O'Doherty, Philip
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Isaacs, Rufus Daniel O'Grady, J.
Cowan, W. H. Jacoby, James Alfred O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N
Cox, Harold Jardine, Sir J. O'Malley, William
Crombie, John William Jenkins, J. Parker, James (Halifax)
Crossley, William J. Johnson, John (Gateshead) Paul, Herbert
Dalziel, James Henry Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea Paulton, James Mellor
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Jones, Leif (Appleby) Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Jowett, F. W. Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Delany, William Joyce, Michael Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)
Rainy, A. Rolland Seely, Major J. B. Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Raphael, Herbert H. Shackleton, David James Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick, B.) Walton, Sir John L.(Leeds, S.)
Redmond, John E.(Waterford) Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent
Rees, J. D. Snowden, P. Ward, W.Dudley (S'thampton)
Rendall, Athelstan Soares, Ernest J. Wardle, George J.
Renton, Major Leslie Spicer, Sir Albert Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh. Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Richards, T. F (Wolverh'mpt'n Steadman, W. C. Weir, James Galloway
Richardson, A. Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) Whitbread, Howard
Rickett, J. Compton Straus, B. S. (Mile End) White, George (Norfolk)
Ridsdale, E. A. Stuart, James (Sunderland) White J.D. (Dumbartonshire)
Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Sullivan, Donal Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Robertson, Rt.Hn. E.(Dundee) Summerbell, T. Wilkie, Alexander
Robertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Taylor, John W. (Durham) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Robinson, S. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Williamson, A.
Robson, Sir William Snowdon Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan,E.) Wilson, Hn. C. H.W. (Hull,W.)
Rose, Charles Day Thomas,David Alfred(Merthyr) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Rowlands, J. Thomasson, Franklin Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Runciman, Walter Thorne, William Yoxall, James Henry
Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) Verney, F. W. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Scott, A.H. (Ashton-und.-Lyne Vivian, Henry
Seddon, J. Wadsworth, J.