HC Deb 28 November 1906 vol 166 cc65-7
MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the alterations made in Clauses 16 and 30 of the Bill for the establishment of an Agricultural and Technical Department in Ireland (1899) with the special object of making it impossible for the Department to subsidise out of public funds, either directly or indirectly, the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society or any other private association; and what steps the Irish Government propose to take to secure that the will of Parliament is carried out in this matter.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRE LAND (Mr. BRYCE,) Aberdeen, S.

My attention has been called to the questions which have arisen in respect of the alterations made in the Bill of 1899 referred to in the Question, but I have no personal recollections bearing on the subject, and no special or official data for enabling me to form an opinion upon it. As regards the legal question involved, I have asked for the opinion of the Irish law officers.

MR. DILLON

I desire to ask whether the attention of the right hon. Gentleman has been called to the fact that this is a question involving a matter of policy, whether the alterations made in the clauses of the Bill wore not made with the special object of making it impossible for the Department to subsidise the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society; and whether he would not hold himself bound by those alterations not to sanction such action on behalf of the Department.

MR. BRYCE

I said I did not know the precise point, but I understand the point the right hon. Gentleman raises is one which is disputed by those who are parties, viz., whether the alteration made had that intention. If it has that intention the question arises does the statute cover it? We have seen Acts of Parliament passed supposed to contain certain intentions, and we have seen the Court of Appeal hold that they were bound only by statute. I think I am bound by what the meaning of the statute is, and upon that I have asked for the opinion of the law officer.

MR. DILLON

The right hon. Gentle man has not really replied to my Question. What I ask is, whether the personal attention of the right hon. Gentleman has been called to the matter. I am speaking now not strictly on a matter of law, but of policy. I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in his opinion, the alterations made did not involve a pledge on behalf of the head of the Department not to give to these outsiders?

MR. BRYCE

That is covered by my Answer. With regard to the meaning of the statute, the view I take is that the Court of Appeal decided the other day, that what was said at the time the statute was passed does not govern the statute. The statute must be interpreted as it stands.

MR. DILLON

I am sorry to have to ask another Question. This is a matter of policy; it is not a question of legal interpretation. The Question I want to ask is this, whether the right hon. Gentleman has examined what took place at the passing of the Bill, and whether in his opinion as Minister he is not bound by the alterations to exercise his authority to prevent the Department subsidising these associations.

MR. BRYCE

Without expressing any opinion on that—which is a matter of controversy—I do not consider my view as a matter of policy should be governed by that matter. My view of the matter of policy so far as this House is concerned must be interpreted by the Act.

MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.)

May I ask whether this Irish Agricultural Organisation Society is not a private trading society in competition with importers and exporters, and therefore entitled to no help?

MR. BRYCE

That raises a totally different question. It is not the question raised by the hon. Member for Mayo, and it does not arise out of the Question.

MR. FLYNN

I shall raise this question on the Vote for the Department.

MR. DILLON

I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the action of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction in Ireland in subsidising the Irish Agricultural Organisation out of the public funds at its disposal is illegal; and what steps, he proposes to take to prevent the continuance of this illegal action on the part of the Department.

THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Cherry, Liverpool, Exchange)

My attention has been drawn to the action of the Department of Agriculture, and Technical Instruction in making payments out of public funds to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society. I am aware that the legality of these payments has been questioned; but the Department, on the other hand, hold that the payments are legal. The question is one of very great importance, and a case containing a full statement of the facts is being prepared for the opinion of the law officers. This will receive full consideration from my colleague the Solicitor-General and my self.