§ MR. LYNCH (York, W.E., Ripon),in moving a Motion declaring that further reforms were urgently required in Macedonia, said he found with special pleasure that his first speech in this House, for which he must claim its kind indulgence, would be directed to the important problem of the social peace and advancement of some of the peoples inhabiting the Ottoman Empire. He approached this question, not so much from the point of view of the philanthropist, as from that of the traveller who was conversant with its practical aspects and had breathed the atmosphere in which it had become evolved. It was true that the air of the Balkans was not so familiar to him as that of the Asiatic provinces of Turkey, but he felt that the problem with which they had to deal in the one case was much the same as the problem in the other. In fact the case of Macedonia could only be solved by similar methods to those which should be applied to some of the provinces of Asiatic Turkey where people of different race and creed were living side by side under Ottoman sway. If there existed any doubt in the minds of hon. Members as to the reality of the suffering of these peoples, or of the wrongs for which they claimed redress, he could assure them that nothing they read or heard of was more pathetic than what the traveller daily saw and heard. His own experience in relation to the Mohammedan states generally was that while the Persian Empire had comparatively stood still Turkey had steadily deteriorated. That was very regrettable to anyone who like himself desired to see a strong and progressive Turkey. The House was probably aware that while the Sultan had contracted certain special and individual obligations to this 1383 country in regard to certain provinces of Asiatic Turkey, our own engagements towards the Turkish peoples in Europe under Turkish rule were legally of a collective character, that was to say, they were shared by other Powers. But while that was true we must not forget that it was we who were mainly responsible for the rescission of the treaty of St. Stefano and for handing back large districts of Macedonia to Turkey. Therefore, we had assumed a special responsibility towards these peoples. We had prevented the formation of a big Bulgaria. In acting in that way we were not animated by any jealousy of Bulgaria, but by a fear lest these territorial changes might be merely a cloak for the extension of one of the great military Empires of Europe—an expansion which was the last thing that could be wished in the interests of the peoples of Asiatic or European Turkey. To seek such a solution would be very much like endeavouring to find a remedy for the grievances under which the Nonconformists of this country had suffered so patiently and so long by handing them over in a body to the Pope. He was glad to think that Lord Lansdowne had initiated a policy more in consonance with the responsibilities of this country, which, if strenuously pursued, would be in the best interests of Macedonia and of Europe. The first part of his Motion stated that this House considered that further reforms were urgently required in Macedonia in the interest alike of the Christian and Mohammedan population. Some hon. Members interested in this question might ask why he had limited himself to Macedonia, and why he had not included the remainder of the peoples of European Turkey. He was quite prepared to admit that there would be force in that contention. He saw no reason why the peoples of the Adrianople Villayet should not be included in a scheme of reform. But he thought they must allow proper weight to the opinions of the Governments of Russia and Austria-Hungary, that the Macedonian problem should be solved before that of the Villayet of Adrianople was undertaken. Therefore, he had confined his Motion to Macedonia. The time at his disposal would not permit of his giving the House any sufficient account of a country which was certainly by nature one of the richest in Europe, 1384 but which contained inhabitants who were, he believed, the poorest on the Continent. Macedonia was a homogeneous geographical unit, with a population of many races professing various creeds, the Bulgars being most numerous, and the Christians far outnumbering the Mussulmans, of whom about a third were Osmanli Turks. The country was infested by agents of the various Balkan States, whose political propaganda sharpened the animosities due to differences of race and creed. He was sure the House would approve of the representatitions which had recently been made on this subject by our Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to the Greek Government. At the same time he would venture to say that the only effective way of putting an end to the incessant political propaganda carried on was by the institution of real reforms. The Balkan States could not afford to relax their efforts in Macedonia, unless and until they should have been assured that the province was really to be placed on its legs. They knew very well that partition of the province would be almost certain to lead to war. The great statesman Tricoupi tried that in 1891 and signally failed. The Balkan States, therefore acquiesced in the cry of Macedonia for the Macedonians. But they required from the Powers interested some earnest of such a fortunate consummation. The urgency of the need of reforms was demonstrated in the pages of the recently issued Blue-book. The joint action of Russia and Austria had been attended by very poor results. Indeed, one was inclined to doubt whether those Powers ever intended reforms. Murders were frequent, there was no security for life and property, and over largo districts security for the lives of the people depended upon that illegitimate organisation called the Committees. During eight months ending August 1905, 785 persons lost their lives by violence. It was true that many of those outrages were due to bands of men fighting one with another; but there could be little doubt that the authorities in Macedonia, like the Russian authorities in recent occurrences in the Caucasus, had at all events shown a very largo measure of complacence towards the practice. The authorities in those provinces knew, like the Russian authorities in the Caucasus, that if they could only divide the people and set them by 1385 the ears there was far less danger of their own authority being undermined. As a result of this baneful system they had seen the rise of the Committees in Macedonia, and the law of those Committees was in certain districts practically the law of the laud. What were the reforms that were most urgently needed? He would like to turn first to the weighty despatch of Lord Lansdowne dated January 11th 1905. In that despatch the British Government laid down the general lines upon which, in their opinion, the reforms should be framed. First, there was to be an immediate reduction of the military forces now maintained by Turkey in Macedonia to the number strictly required for the maintenance of internal order and security, such reduction to be for a definite number of years. At the same time it was proposed by Lord Lansdowne that a collective guarantee should be given by the Powers to the effect that Macedonia should not be invaded by Bulgaria, and he could only therefore assume it should not be invaded by the army of any other Balkan State. Nothing whatever had been done, even up to the present time, towards the realisation of this important reform. He understood that the British Government was about to conclude an arrangement with Turkey under which the Customs dues all over Turkey were to be raised from 8 to 11 per cent. Lord Lansdowne calculated in the despatch he had quoted that the cost of the Turkish military forces in Macedonia amounted to £3,000,000 a year, the number of men employed being 130,000. This cost was saddled on the province, which as a consequence showed a deficit of from £700,000 to £800,000 in Turkish pounds, which were a little loss in value than English sovereigns. This deficit corresponded very nearly to the total estimated yield of the additional Customs duties. In connection with the financial Regulation which was the outcome of the Naval demonstration organised last winter against Turkey, the Powers granted to the Porte the right of making up this deficit of £700,000 or £800,000 by drafts on the Customs duties. This was almost tantamount to permitting an increase of the Customs, and he was sorry the British Government had oven listened to it on the terms obtained. At least 60 per cent. of 1386 the Turkish Customs were levied on British trade. But inasmuch as it had been admitted that the deficit in question should be made up from Customs duties, it became of the utmost importance that this military expenditure should be considerably reduced. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had recently stated that the sum included in the last Budget for Civil Administration amounted to £768,697. Would the right hon. Gentleman inform the House what was the sum allotted in that Budget for military expenditure? The second reform postulated by Lord Lansdowne was the formation of a Commission to consist of delegates of the Powers, and to be invested with executive functions with control over finances and justice. The Regulation to which he had referred as the outcome of the Naval demonstration, and of which at his instance a copy had been presented to Parliament, altered the status of the proposed "delegates" on the Commission to that of "advisers," added a Turkish adviser to the board, on which already sat the Ottoman Inspector-General, and also limited the exercise of their functions by the "advisers" to a period of two years. They were not invested with executive functions. They were not given a voice in the administration of justice. Surely this was a very poor result of the Naval demonstration. He trusted that His Majesty's Government would not embark in the future on collective action with the Powers before arriving at a preliminary and binding understanding with them as to the minimum demands to be satisfied by the Porte, and that the demonstration would not be withdrawn before those demands were satisfied. The measures formulated by Lord Lansdowne constituted the minimum of what was necessary to restore order in these provinces. He would mention a condition which, he thought, ought to be added. The boundaries of Macedonia urgently required readjustment, especially on the side of Albania. At present those boundaries were based, not on the principle of sound or convenient administration, but on that of including as many discordant nationalities as possible. Therefore one of the first things to be done to obtain efficient administration was to readjust the boundaries, nor should this be one of the last reforms. Time did not 1387 permit him to enter upon the very important question as to what the attitude of His Majesty's Government should be in regard to the pressing of reforms upon the Sultan. He would only say that he thought that in dealing with such a special provincial problem as that of Macedonia, His Majesty's Government were proceeding on sound lines. It was no use dissipating their efforts, as in the past they had no doubt dissipated them, by insisting upon reforms over the whole length and breadth of Turkey. He thought the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had inherited a thoroughly sound policy from his predecessor. They were told the other day by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in another place of the difficulties under which that policy had been evolved. There was at that time the the great question of Morocco, which presented a most delicate international situation; but in the course of that same speech they were happily informed by the Under Secretary that those difficulties had now, to a great extent, been dissipated, and that, in his own words, "their hands were now comparatively free." He expressed the hope that those hands might now be applied to an earnest solution of this problem of Macedonia. This was a problem in which we had contracted special obligations, or, at all events, special moral responsibilities towards the people of that country; and he felt that the interests of this country could never be safely dissociated from the interests of any of the peoples in any sense committed to our charge. He begged to move.
§ MR. GOOCH (Bath)said there were two questions pending between this country and the Porte. The first dated back nearly three months ago and related to the gendarmerie, the Sultan being asked to increase the very limited powers which they now enjoyed. The second point was that the Sultan was anxious to obtain the consent of this country to the raising of the tariff on foreign goods from 8 to 11 per cent. The House would remember that Lord Lansdowne expressed the opinion last year that this concession could only be granted by this country in return for very substantial reforms or guarantees of reforms on the part of the Sultan. He hoped the Foreign Secretary would be able to assure them that before allowing the Sultan to 1388 increase his tariff and thus increase the money at his disposal for maintaining the garrison in Macedonia, the English had done their utmost to see that substantial reforms were not only promised, but actually carried out. He begged to second the Motion.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That this House considers that further reforms are urgently required in Macedonia in the interest alike of the Christian and Mohammedan population, and is prepared to support His Majesty's Government in taking whatever steps are necessary to secure that end."—{Mr. Lynch.)
§ THE SECRETARY or STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir EDWARD GREY, Northumberland, Berwick)The hon. Member who moved this Motion has spoken on a subject of which he has great knowledge and great experience, not only commercially, but locally, and I congratulate him on having chosen for his first speech in the House a subject on which he speaks with special authority and special knowledge. I do not demur in the least to the statement that the reforms hitherto achieved have not yet gone far enough, nor do depreciate in any way the value of the advice he has given us as to what further reforms should be asked for, and, if possible, obtained. So far from demurring to it, I welcome some of the suggestions as to the further reforms which are desirable and which should be kept in view. In this matter of Macedonia our hands are comparatively free, but our action is bound to keep step with that of the other Powers. It is not a matter in which we can act in such a way as to separate ourselves from the other Powers; and I think it would be exceedingly undesirable, however strong our feelings in this House, however clear our views as to the larger measures of reform still required, if we were on our own behalf to sketch out a large programme unless we are sure that it is likely to receive the support of the other Powers; because if we do take a departure of that kind, which is in advance of what the Powers could support, the only result will be to disturb and alarm some of them and to weaken our power of joining with them and to concentrate with them in that which they are prepared to join with us in pressing. It is not because I do 1389 not think the reforms he sketched desirable or necessary, but because I want to do as Lord Lansdowne did formerly—to do what he could to get the other Powers to join with him in pressing for what they believed to be practicable, but keeping step with them and not going in advance of them. But something has been done. The hon. Member was right in saying that Lord Lansdowne's policy has had some good results. It is true that there were some things which he outlined and which he was not able to press. He did not press as far as he wished the reduction of the military forces in Macedonia, because in order to do that it would be necessary to guarantee the Turkish frontier of Macedonia against violation. That is a guarantee which might be undertaken by every Power, and it would have to be carried out by other Powers than ourselves; and that depends on the action of other Powers. But something has been done. The hon. Member said that Lord Lansdowne estimated the military expenditure in the vilayets in Macedonia at £3,000,000. This estimate of Lord Lansdowne included the vilayet of Adrianopole, which is not included in the three vilayets under discussion this evening. It is estimated that the expenditure of Lord Lansdowne for the three vilayets would have been£2,200,000. In the Budget drawn up by the Financial Commission, and sanctioned by Imperial Irad½, that expenditure is now reduced to £1,344,600. That is a considerable reduction in the military expenditure for the financial year ending March, 1907. As to reform of the judiciary, Lord Lansdowne found it impossible to press that, but he did find it possible to get the Powers to concentrate on the reform of finance. he rightly considered that the reform of finance underlay all the other reforms; that you could not get everything; and that, if you were obliged to concentrate on one thing, the best thing was the reform of finance. The Financial Commission was introduced shortly before Lord Lansdowne left office. I do not think its powers are large 1390 enough. I hope in time those powers will be increased. But it has already done something. It has drawn up a Budget which is, at all events, an intelligible Budget, and I think there is a nearer approach to accuracy in the finances of Macedonia than has been reached before. That is something gained. Then it has also made a step forward by better organisation and better attention to the finances. It estimates that it will be able to increase the revenue by about £60,000 in the year; that about £90,000 more revenue will be devoted to Civil purposes than has been done before; and that £9,000 will be devoted to the improvement of prison accommodation. I do not say that that is a large result, but it is, at any rate, a beginning. In the course of next year the Financial Commission hopes to revise the rates of pay of the Civil administration. Something has been done already to improve the position of the officials, on the effective performance of whose duties really depends the efficiency of the local administration. That is a step in advance, because the irregularity or inadequacy of the pay of the civil functionaries is no doubt one of the great troubles of government in the Turkish Empire, and anything which will make that pay more regular and adequate is a definite step forward towards the improvement of local administration. Then the collection of tithe is no longer made upon the estimated but upon the actual yield of the crops; and that in itself should tend to make the levy of tithes not only more just but more productive. These are small results, but they are steps in the right direction. It took considerable effort to get the Financial Commission even on its present footing; and I think it would be impossible to expect the Powers to join in collective action of a strenuous kind until they have had at least a year's experience of the working of the present Financial Commission. We have already results enough to show that that year's time will not be wasted, but that there will be 1391 some improvement in the financial position of Macedonia; and I hope in addition that the reports of the Powers received from each of the delegates that they have on the Financial Commission, founded on their own experience, will enable the Powers to draw up and formulate certain other improvements in the constitution of the Financial Commission, which they can press as reasonable on the Porte, and with hope of their being accepted. That at any rate is some, if not quick progress; and it justifies my hon, friend in saying that the policy which has been pursued was a policy worth carrying out. With regard to the gendarmerie, I have not yet a satisfactory answer to give. I am sorry that we have not yet received the reply of the Porto to the request that further powers should be given, or, rather, that the powers of the gendarmerie should be recognised as it was understood originally that they would be. It is, no doubt, time that an answer should have been received. But we on our part have naturally been engaged lately in pressing other matters at Constantinople; and it would not have been reasonable that the initiative in pressing for a reply on this point should have rested with us. It is a matter on which all the Powers have joined, and there is no doubt that, if a reply is not received soon, one Power or another will take the initiative. We shall certainly support the request that a favourable reply should be returned to the demand. With regard to the general question, I will only repeat that there is no intention of losing sight of the further objects which Lord Lansdowne had in view. We intend to follow out his policy of not separating ourselves from the other Powers and of acting with them in order to secure what results we can concentrate upon and what results they can approve. Lord Lansdowne, in the despatch which my hon. friend quoted, said—
If these Powers are prepared to put forward proposals of the kind I have indicated in this despatch, they may count on the loyal support of His Majesty's Government, and they may rest assured that nothing is further from on 1392 intentions than to cause embarrassment by action which might have the appearance of being antagonistic to theirs.It is necessary to bear that in mind, because some of these Powers have interests more intimate and more direct in this part of the world than we have. Our policy in this matter is a purely disinterested policy. But to prove that it is disinterested we are bound, when other Powers are sensitive, or are desirous that questions should not be pressed for fear their own interests should be affected, though our interests might be unaffected by them, to pay some regard to their wishes. We shall carry on the policy of Lord Lansdowne as strenuously as we can. We shall carry it on in concert with the other Powers; and I do not in the least deprecate—on the contrary, I think it is perfectly natural—that the House of Commons should express its opinion in favour of that policy, that further reforms are required, and that the support of the House of Commons will be forthcoming, as the support of His Majesty's Government will certainly be forthcoming, in any steps which the other Powers are prepared to join with us in taking to improve the condition of affairs in Macedonia
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Resolved, that this House considers that further reforms are urgently required in Macedonia in the interest alike of the Christian and Mohammedan population, and is prepared to support His Majesty's Government in taking whatever steps are necessary to secure that end.—(Mr. Lynch.)