§ Motion made and Question proposed, "That Sir John Dickson-Poynder be a Member of the Select Committee on the Housing of the Working Classes Acts Amendment Bill."—;(Mr. Whiteley.)
§ MR. KEIR HARDIE (Merthyr Tydvil)expressed a hope that this Motion would not be pressed at the moment. The Bill was intended to recast the law with regard to housing, giving railway and tramway companies certain powers that they did not possess in the matter, while also conferring a power to amend the by laws framed to secure adequate housing 1003 accommodation for labourers in rural districts. He complained that no Member of the Labour Party occupied a place on the Committee which was to deal with a question with which the working classes were ultimately concerned. If the Motion were pressed they might have to press the opposition to the fullest extent the forms of the House would permit.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. GEORGE WHITELEY,) Yorkshire, W.R., Pudseysaid that he was sorry he could not accept the view of the hon. Member. He denied the statement that there was no Member of the Labour Party on the Committee. It was not the turn of the Labour Party for which the hon. Member spoke to have a representative on this Committee; it was the turn of the Labour Party sitting on the Government side of the House. The Labour Party as a whole had the right to one representative on the Committee, but the Labour Party was divided and sat on both sides of the House. He had tried to observe a scrupulous attitude of fairness and justice throughout the session in the appointment of Members to these Committees, and he maintained that the Labour Party sitting on the Opposition Benches had received more favourable treatment from the Government than ever before. For example, last week the Local Taxation Committee was appointed, and on that Committee there was a representative of the Independent Labour Party. For the Income Tax Committee, selected two or three days later, he had purposely left out from the names of the Committee a representative of the Labour Party on the other side and had included a member of the Party from the Government side of the House. The hon. Member for Barnard Castle and the hon. Member for Leicester came to him and represented that, as this Income Tax Committee was one directly affecting the labour interest, it was not fair to leave out of that Committee a representative of the Independent Labour Party. He thought the argument was a good one, and after consultation with the Chancellor of the Exchequer he included the hon. Member for Merthyr on that Committee. He had to ask the assent of the Irish Party and of the Opposition to the enlargement of that Committee, and there was some little difficulty, and 1004 he had further to enlarge it in order to preserve the balance. Of the two Committees—;the Income Tax Committee and the Housing of the Working Classes Committee —; hon. Members below the gangway said they would prefer the nomination of a member of the Independent Labour Party on the former. ["No, no."] The hon. Member for Barnard Castle if he were present would bear him out on that.
§ MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD (Leicester)said that both the hon. Member for Barnard Castle and himself said that the Housing of the Working Classes Committee was a matter which would have to be discussed when it came before the House.
§ MR. GEORGE WHITELEYsaid the hon. Member was quite right. The hon. Member said they would not pledge themselves in any way, and he replied:—; "No. I am telling you what I intend to do. When we nominate the Housing of the Working Classes Committee we shall nominate a Labour Member from this side and not from that." The hon. Member for Merthyr claimed for the Labour Party double the amount of representation that they were entitled to. If they got that representation who was to suffer? Was the Irish Party, the Opposition, or the Liberal Party to suffer? The Liberal Party nominated only eight members instead of nine and then there was the Labour Party sitting on the Liberal side of the House, whose interest and welfare he declined to sacrifice to the hon. Members below the opposite gangway.
§ MR. CROOKS (Woolwich)rose to continue the discussion.
§ * MR. SPEAKEROrder, order. There can only be one speech on each side.
§ MR. CROOKSThen may I move the substitution of another name for that of Sir John Dickson-Poynder?
§ * MR. SPEAKERNo; the Question having been put must now be decided.
§ Question put.
1006§ The House divided:—;Ayes, 335; Noes, 85. (Division List No. 69.)
1009| AYES. | ||
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Helmsley, Viscount |
| Acland-Hood, RtHn.SirAlexF. | Collins, SirW.J.(S.Pancras,W.) | Henderson,J.M. (Aberdeen,W.) |
| Adkins, W. Ryland | Corbett,C H(Sussex, E Grinst'd | Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.) |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) |
| Agnew, George William | Cory, Clifford John | Hervey, F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'd |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Higham, John Sharp |
| Alden, Percy | Courthope, G. Loyd | Hill, Sir Clement(Shrewsbury) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Cox, Harold | Hobart, Sir Robert |
| Armitage, R. | Craig, C. Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Holland, Sir William Henry |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Craik, Sir Henry | Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset,N |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. | Cremer, William Randal | Horniman, Emslie John |
| Astbury, John Meir | Crombie, John William | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hon.SirH | Crossley, William J. | Hunt, Rowland |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Dalziel, James Henry | Hutton, Alfred Eddison |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury,E.) | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Hyde, Clarendon |
| Balcarres, Lord | Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Illingworth, Percy H. |
| Balfour, RtHn.A.J.(CityLond.) | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh,S.) | Jackson, R. S. |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | Jacoby, James Alfred |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N | Jardine, Sir J. |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Dobson, Thomas W. | Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) |
| Baring, Hon. Guy(Winchester) | Doughty, Sir George | Kearley, Hudson E. |
| Barker, John | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Kekewich, Sir George |
| Barlow, J. Emmott(Somerset) | Duckworth, James | Kennaway,Rt.Hon.SirJohn H. |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Du Cros, Harvey | Kenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hon.Col. W |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Keswick, William |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N. | Dunoon,Roberts(Lan'rk,Govan | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) |
| Beach,Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall) | Kitson, Sir James |
| Beale, W. P. | Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) | Laidlaw, Robert |
| Beauchamp, E. | Edwards, Frank (Radnor) | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster |
| Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham | Elibank, Master of | Lambert, George |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward | Lambton, Hon.FrederickWm. |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Erskine, David C. | Lamont, Norman |
| Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo. | Essex, R. W. | Lane-Fox, G. R. |
| Bertram, Julius | Everett, R. Lacey | Lea, Hugh Cecil(St.Pancras,E. |
| Billson, Alfred | Faber, George Denison (York) | Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Fell, Arthur | Lehmann, R. C. |
| Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire | Fenwick, Charles | Lever, W. H. (Cheshire,Wirral) |
| Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Ferens, T. R. | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Ferguson, R. C. Munro | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David |
| Brace, William | Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Lockwood,Rt.Hn. Lt.-Col.A.R. |
| Branch, James | Fuller, John Michael F. | Long, Col.CharlesW.(Evesham |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
| Bryce,Rt.Hn.James (Aberdeen | Gibb, James (Harrow) | Lough, Thomas |
| Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs) | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Lowe, Sir Francis William |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert J. | Lupton, Arnold |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Glendinning, R. G. | Lynch, H. B. |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Gooch, George Peabody | Macdonald, J. M. (FalkirkB'ghs |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Grant, Corrie | Mackarness, Frederic C. |
| Buxton,Rt.Hn. Sydney Charles | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Maclean, Donald |
| Cairns, Thomas | Greenwood, Hamar (York) | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Cameron, Robert | Griffith, Ellis J. | M'Callum, John M. |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Gulland, John W. | M'Kenna, Reginald |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Haddock, George R. | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hall, Frederick | Maddison, Frederick |
| Causton,Rt. Hn. RichardKnight | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis | Magnus, Sir Philip |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. | Mallet, Charles E. |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Hart-Davies, T. | Manfield, Harry (Northants) |
| Chance, Frederick William | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Markham, Arthur Basil |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Harwood, George | Marks,G.Croydon(Launceston) |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Marks, H. H. (Kent) |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Marnham, F. J. |
| Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham) | Haworth, Arthur A. | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) |
| Clough, W. | Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Mason, James F. (Windsor) |
| Coates, E.Feetham(Lewisham) | Hedges, A. Paget | Massie, J. |
| Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew,W.) | Helme, Norval Watson | Menzies, Walter |
| Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Richards, Thomas (W.Monm'h | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Ridsdale, E. A. | Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Molteno, Percy Alfred | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Montagu, E. S. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Torrance, A. M. |
| Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield,Ecclesall) | Toulmin, George |
| Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Robertson, Sir G Scott(Bradf'rd | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Morpeth, Viscount | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Morrell, Philip | Robson, Sir William Snowdon | Verney, F. W. |
| Morse, L. L. | Rogers, F. E. Newman | Villiers, Ernest Amherst |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Rose, Charles Day | Vivian, Henry |
| Murray, James | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter | Wadsworth, J. |
| Myer, Horatio | Rowlands, J. | Wallace, Robert |
| Napier, T. B. | Runciman, Walter | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) | Russell, T. W. | Ward, W. Dudley (Southamp'n |
| Nicholls, George | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan) |
| Nicholson, C. N. (Doncaster | Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) | Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney) |
| Nicholson, W. G. (Petersfield) | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Sandys, Lieut. -Col. Thos. Myles | Weir, James Galloway |
| Nussey, Thomas Willans | Scarisbrick, T. T. L. | Whitbread, Howard |
| Nuttall, Harry | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| O'Brien, William (Cork) | Schwann, Chas. E.(Manchester) | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Seaverns, J. H. | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| O'Shee, James John | Seely, Major J. B. | Whitehead, Rowland |
| Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Paul, Herbert | Silcock, Thomas Ball | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Paulton, James Mellor | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) | Williams, W. L. (Carmarthen) |
| Pease, H. Pike (Darlington) | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Williamson, A. (ElginandNairn |
| Perks, Robert William | Soares, Ernest J. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Spicer, Albert | Wills, Arthur Walters |
| Pollard, Dr. | Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) | Wilson, A.Stanley (York, E.R.) |
| Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Stanley, Hn A. Lyulph (Chesh.) | Wilson, Henry J. (York,W.R.) |
| Price, R. John (Norfolk, E.) | Starkey, John R. | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N. |
| Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) | Steadman, W. C. | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Priestley, W. E. B.(Bradford, E. | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Winfrey, R. |
| Radford, G. H. | Strachey, Sir Edward | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Rainy, A. Rolland | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Raphael, Herbert H. | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) | Woodhouse,Sir J.T(Huddersf'd |
| Rawlinson, John Frederick P. | Stuart, James (Sunderland) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | Sutherland, J. E. | Younger, George |
| Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' | Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G.(Oxf'dUniv. | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Rees, J. D. | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) | |
| Remnant, James Farquharson | Tennant, E. P. (Salisbury) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—;Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease. |
| Rendall, Athelstan | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) | |
| Renton, Major Leslie | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.) | Fardell, Sir T. George | M'Killop, W. |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Masterman, C. F. G. |
| Barnard, E. B. | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Meagher, Michael |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Fletcher, J. S. | Meehan, Patrick A. |
| Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R. | Flynn, James Christopher | Mooney, J. J. |
| Bennett, E. N. | Ginnell, L. | Muntz, Sir Philip A. |
| Blake, Edward | Halpin, J. | Murnaghan, George |
| Bottomley, Horatio | Hammond, John | Hurphy, John |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hardie, J. Keir (MerthyrTydvil) | Nolan, Joseph |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid. |
| Byles, William Pollard | Hazleton, Richard | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Hodge, John | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Hudson, Walter | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Crean, Eugene | Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Crooks, William | Jowett, F. W. | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Delany, William | Joyce, Michael | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | O'Grady, J. |
| Dillon, John | Law, Hugh Alexander | O'Hare, Patrick |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon | Lundon, W. | O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N. |
| Dolan, Charles Joseph | Macpherson, J. T. | O'Malley, William |
| Donelan, Captain A. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down, S.) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Duffy, William J. | MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | M'Calmont, Colonel James | Reddy, M. |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | M'Kean, John | Redmond, John E. (Waterford |
| Redmond, William (Clare) | Sullivan, Donal | Young, Samuel |
| Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'm't'n | Summerbell, T. | |
| Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Wardle, George J. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—;Mr. Ramsay Macdonald and Mr. Barnes. |
| Seddon, J. | Watt, H. Anderson | |
| Sloan, Thomas Henry | Wilkie, Alexander | |
| Snowden, P. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
Motion made, and Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Major Dunne be one other member of the Select Committee on the Housing of the Working Classes Amendment Bill."—;(Mr. Whitely.)
§ MR. CROOKSsaid he rose to move the adjournment of the debate. The hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary of the Treasury did not understand the difference between their argument as to their right occasionally—;not on every Committee—;to representation, and the argument the hon. Gentleman himself had used, because it was not fair to say that in the House there were two Labour Parties. There was only one Labour Party in the House. The representatives whom the hon. Gentleman claimed as a Labour Party were elected to support the Liberal Party, pure and simple, and it was therefore a little invidious for the hon. Gentleman to choose from that Party certain Members, and declare that they represented the Labour Party. They might just as well appoint a Liberal Member in the place of a Nationalist to serve on a Committee on the ground that he was a sympathiser with the cause of Home Rule. He objected to their taking a section of the Liberal Party and declaring that it represented the Labour Party. The housing question was one of the questions which the Labour Party could seriously claim to know something about, and they contended that they were entitled to a representative on the Committee who really understood the lodger—;the one-room man—;side of the question. He hoped the hon. Gentlemon would allow the debate to be adjourned, so that they could have a quiet talk over the matter. They did not want to enforce anything; they rather wanted to encourage the hon. Gentleman to do the right thing. He begged to move.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the debate be now adjourned." —; (Mr. Crooks.)
1010§ MR. GEORGE WHITELEYsaid the matter would have to be decided by the House as to whether these Committees should be actually representative of the House or not. The question to be decided was whether a Party which had only a right to one-twenty-third representation could legitimately claim one-eleventh. He said they could not, and the hon. Gentleman's argument that his Party was the only Labour Party in the House was, he ventured to say, a mistake altogether. Was not the hon. Member for Birkenhead a representative of Labour? Was he not a greater expert in regard to this matter than any hon. Member below the gangway on the Opposition side? He would agree to the adjournment of the debate on the understanding that the appointment of the Committee was put down as the second order tomorrow and the 11 o'clock rule suspended, so that the question could be settled after that hour.
§ Debate to be resumed to-morrow.