§ MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL (Kerry, W.)I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, under the Act of 1878 constituting the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland, the Rules of that body must lie upon the Table of this House for forty days before they can come into operation; and whether, seeing that secondary schools commence their school year some time about the middle of August and others in the beginning of September, and require to know some time beforehand what programme has been definitely decided on by the Board and that only a short time remains if the Rules are to lay upon the Table for forty days and come into operation some short time before the commencement of the school year, he will give notice to the 179 Board that they adopt the Resolutions of this House and publish the revised Rules within a week, or, if not, that they must resign their posts, and that he will appoint a small provisional board to carry on secondary education until inquiry is made and a scheme adopted for placing a primary, secondary, and technical education in the hands of one board appointed by and responsible to the Irish people.
§ MR. LONSDALE (Armagh, Mid.)At the same time may I ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the refusal of the Commissioners of Intermediate Education to submit new rules for the forthcoming examinations, he proposes to ask the House of Commons to rescind the Resolution which was adopted on Monday, May 21st? †
* MR. BRYCEThe fact is as stated in the first part of the Question. Since I answered a Question on this subject last week, the Board of Intermediate Education have informed the Irish Government that they find it impossible to prepare a new set of rules in time to enable them to be approved by the Lord-Lieutenant and lie forty days on the Table of both Houses before August; and that as the gravest inconvenience would be caused to the numerous schools which prepare pupils for the Board's examinations if the programme of those examinations were not announced by the month of August, they conceive that the only course open to them is to continue the previously existing programme, viz., that prepared in 1905 to be in force for 1906. They accordingly propose to submit to the Lord-Lieutenant for his approval the rules for 1906 that they may be in operation for 1907. This is a purely temporary expedient, rendered necessary, in the opinion of the Board, by the shortness of the time available. It is hoped that the rules may be laid before Parliament in the time sufficient to enable the secondary schools to go on with their work of preparation in the usual way. In answer to the Question of the hon. Member for Mid. Armagh I have only to add that it is not the case that the Commissioners have refused to submit new rules.
§ † See (4) Debates, clvii., 1072.
180§ MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)Arising out of that reply I should like to ask whether the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has now communicated to the House is the first answer sent in by the Board, or whether it is a fact, as stated in a leading Dublin newspaper, that the Board by a large majority declined to submit to the unanimous decision of the House of Commons, and absolutely refused to alter their rules; also whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the alteration proposed by this House is so simple that there could be no difficulty in carrying it into effect.
* MR. BRYCEI have stated in my answer to the hon. Gentleman, which I regret has not yet been circulated, as I intended it should have boon, that communications were passing on the whole subject between the Government and the Commissioners of Intermediate Education, and I cannot make any statement as to the correspondence. I am bound to say that from the communications that passed, it is quite true that it would be more difficult than it appears at first sight to draw up a new set of rules consistent with the view that the Commissioners entertain, and considering the extreme technicality of the system under which these intermediate examinations are worked. I did not know until I looked into the matter how highly technical it is, and I can understand the difficulty.
§ MR. THOMAS O'DONNELLasked whether upon the Board receiving notice that the rules were to be changed in three points of importance, the delay arose not because of the difficulty itself, but purely and simply because the Nationalist representatives wanted to have Irish put on an equality with French and German.
* MR. BRYCEI do not think the latter part of the hon. Member's Question is well founded. I think there is a real difficulty.
§ MR. THOMAS O'DONNELLasked whether, if they agreed to allow the third part of the changes dealing with domestic economy to stand over for another year, the right hon. Gentleman would guarantee that Irish should be placed in the position they desired.
* MR. BRYCEI am sorry to say I cannot guarantee anything. The hon. Member seems to suppose that the rules are made by the Irish Government. They are not.
§ MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford)May I ask whether it is not a fact that the delay renders it impossible for the Commissioners to submit these amended rules in time to lay them upon the Table of the House for forty days before August, whether the delay of three weeks which has already taken place is not entirely due to the Commissioners themselves; and, secondly, will the right hon. Gentleman state how it is if there is not time to put the amended rules upon the Table there will be time to put last year's rules upon the Table. Why cannot the amended rules be laid as well as last year's rules?
* MR. BRYCEI am afraid I have failed to explain the matter sufficiently. It is an extremely difficult thing to fit into their general scheme the alterations which have to be made in order to comply with the Resolution of the House. They are of course willing to comply with the directions of this House, but find extreme difficulty in doing so. I think that is quite true, and if hon. Members would look into this matter they would understand that it is so. As regards the first part of the Question I do not think a certain amount of delay could be avoided, considering the position in which the Board was placed by the decision of this House.
§ MR. DILLONIs it not a fact that the real difficulty arises from the decision of the Commissioners to defy the decision of this House; and, further, is it not a fact that the decision of the Commissioners was communicated by them to a Dublin newspaper and published three weeks ago?
* MR. BRYCEI know nothing whatever about & Dublin newspaper. I have not seen it and I do not think it is fair to the Board to say that that is the cause of the delay. The matter is one of very great difficulty, and I can quite understand it.
§ MR JOHN REDMONDThe right hon. Gentleman has no control over this 182 Board, but the House is entitled to ask whether the Board, after the decision of this House, passed a Resolution defying the action of the House?
* MR. BRYCEI have already stated that pending the completion of the correspondence that is going on between the Board and the Irish Government I ought to make no further statement on the point.
§ MR. JOHN REDMONDIs that acting fairly to the House of Commons? It decided by a unanimous vote a certain thing, and I ask whether one of these Irish Boards for which the right hon. Gentleman is not responsible passed a Resolution defying the action of this House.
* MR. BRYCEThat might be stated if they were defying the action of the House, but their communication to the Irish Government is one accepting the decision of the House and accepting the rules.
§ MR. JOHN REDMONDI am very sorry to have to press this matter. Will the right hon. Gentleman answer—of course if he refuses to do so there is an end of the matter—did the Board, after an unanimous decision of this House, pass a Resolution declining to act upon the decision come to by the House?
* MR. BRYCEI can make no further statement on the matter. There has been correspondence between the Board and the Irish Government, but I am not now in a position to make any further statement.
§ MR. THOMAS O'DONNELLWill the right hon. Gentleman publish the minutes of the last meeting of the Board?