HC Deb 15 June 1906 vol 158 cc1307-15

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]

Clause 1:—

MR. CLAUDE HAY (Shoreditch, Hoxton)

said he desired to know the effect of the words in line 12 upon the various provisions in the schedule. He was afraid that whilst certain advantages which were enjoyed under the law as it now stood might be taken away, the liabilities would remain, and it was obvious that it would be very unfair to take away an advantage and leave the liability.

MR. THOMAS SHAW

said that the language adopted in the Bill was not his own, nor by any means that of his recent predecessors. It was the language of previous generations. The necessity for a Statute Revision Bill had been the subject of inquiry by the late Lord Westbury and by the late Lord Cairns, and the present Bill, as drawn, was necessary if they were not to defeat the whole object of statute law revision.

Clause 1 agreed to.

Other clauses agreed to.

Schedule:—

MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSON moved an Amendment standing in the name of Viscount Helmsley to leave out the words "of ridaris and gangaris throu the cuntre." The noble Lord had pointed out to him that these words were of very great importance, and he believed they had some reference to riders and gangers on the King's highway. He understood it was a law of great importance in former times, and he did not see why it should be done away with. There was nothing to show why it would not be of great importance now. He should be glad if those responsible for the Bill would give him a satisfactory explanation why it was proposed to repeal this law.

Amendment proposed— In page 3, line 15, to leave out the words 'of ridaris and gangaris throu the cuntre.'" —(Mr. Meysey-Thompson.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule"

MR. THOMAS SHAW

said he thought it would please the humour of the House if he read the statute. The Scottish Parliament was a first-rate Parliament, and brought within the compass of two or three lines all that they wanted to do. This was an instance, of which there were not a few in the list, of a great suspicion of people who came from the south of the Tweed. These people came to the north with far more attendants than was healthy, and that was a suspicious circumstance. Therefore, these words occurred in the preamble of the Act— Na man suld travell with maa men, nor he may susteine. Item. It is statute that na man of what estate, degree or condition he be of, rydand or gangand in the Countrie, lead nor have maa persons with him, nor may suffice him, nor till his estaite, and for quhom he will make readie payment; and gif onie complaint be of sik ryders or gangers, the King commandis his officiares of the land, that quhair they happen to be, till arriest them, and put them under sicker burrowes, quhill the King be certified thereof, and send his will what sal be done of sic trespassourers.

MR MEYSEY-THOMPSON

On a point of order, may I ask for a translation?

MR. THOMAS SHAW

said it meant that no gentleman rider visiting Scotland should have more servants than could be accounted for on peaceable principles. What happened if the hon. Gentleman or his noble ancestors came north in those suspicious circumstances was that the King commanded his officers of the land where they happened to be to arrest them, and to put them in absolute security while the King sent his will what should be done with such trespassers. Would the hon. Gentleman not be easier in his mind if that were repealed?

MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSON

begged leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSON

moved to leave out the words "of sornaris." As he was entirely ignorant of the meaning of the word "sornaris" he would ask the right hon. Gentleman for information. He was delighted to hear during the discussion of the Soldiers' and Sailors' False Characters Bill that knowledge was necessary to constitute an offence. He thought in this case he should not very easily be guilty of an offence, because he had absolutely no knowledge of it. He did not even know how the word was pronounced. The Secretary of State for War with charming candour had already let them into some of the secrets of the present Government. In the event of one Bill not being satisfactory to the House the right hon. Gentleman produced another from his pocket and said that the first was not the one he meant to read. He wanted to know whether the Government had taken a tip from the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War.

THE CHAIRMAN

asked if the hon. Gentleman would be good enough to return to the subject of his Amendment.

MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSON

said he was going to say that in this case two Bills were necessary, one in Scottish and the other in English. He would like to ask whether "sornaris" was a crime, a disease, or a vegetable. If it were a crime or a disease it was very desirable that it should cease. But was it something good to eat, because, if so, had the right hon. Gentleman taken proper steps to bring it up-to-date and have the seeds distributed? Until ho had a satisfactory answer from the right hon. Gentleman he must persist in his Amendment.

Amendment proposed— In page 3, line 19, to leave out the words of sornaris.'"—(Mr. Meysey-Thompson.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."

MR. THOMAS SHAW

said the word was an old Scottish word. His hon. friend need not be alarmed; it was not exactly a crime or a disease. The modern equivalent was English slang, although it sounded Scotch. The slang English equivalent would be "sponger," and the statute in question dealt with spongers. He was sorry to say they nearly always proceeded from the south of the Tweed. When they came into Scotland they had what was popularly known as a high time. Speaking seriously, the sooner the like of that was abolished from the statute the better. The matter was raised in 1868 by Mr. George Howell, who pleaded that the laws of the county should be reduced to something like reasonable bulk by all obsolete matter being deleted. Since the Act of Union the laws of England up to the time of the Union had boon revised under statutes similar to the present and the whole of the laws of the United Kingdom up to a few years ago had also been revised, but all the Scottish statutes prior to the Act of Union had been left out. They were extremely involved and were written in the most archaic language, and though they formed a picturesque record of the history of Scotland, as business men they ought not to deprive Scotland of the opportunity of having her laws put into one single small volume instead of ten large folios as as present. He was sure the House would sympathise with the desire of the Lord Chancellor in this as in other matters to have Scotland brought absolutely up-to-date. The Bill was the result of very anxious inquiry made by skilled men led by his respected friend Sheriff Æneas Mackay. Everything had been done in every item of the Bill to make it absolutely straight and clear. But if between now and the passage of the Bill through the other House any communication was made to him concerning it he would convey it to the Lord Chancellor and it would receive full investigation.

SIR E. CARSON

fully agreed with everything the Lord Advocate had said. It was very desirable that this Bill should become law so that the statutes should be in a form which the people of Scotland could understand. The laws of Ireland were now in one small volume, and it would be a great boon to Scotland to be placed in a similar position.

MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON

said, as one who had at any rate a nodding acquaintance with the laws of Scotland, he entirely agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that this schedule represented the careful labour of a large number of skilled investigators continued during a long period. He could quite understand the natural and perhaps pardonable curiosity of his hon. friend as to the archaic language in which the old laws were written, but he hoped he would agree to the Bill proceeding.

MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSON

desired to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. CLAUDE HAY (Shoreditch, Hoxton) moved that the words, "Of slauchter of salmonde in tyme forbodyne be the law" be omitted from the schedule. His object was to ascertain from the right hon. Gentleman whether the laws which were somewhat complicated regarding salmon fishing in Scotland would be in any way affected by the repeal of the words he had quoted.

Amendment proposed— In page 3, line 28, to leave out the words 'of slauchter of salmonde in tyme forbodyne be the law.' "—(Mr. Claude Hay.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the schedule."

MR. THOMAS SHAW

said he had made certain inquiries in respect of this matter, and found that the statutes affecting salmon fisheries had been handled with extreme care by the skilled advisers of this Bill. But he would undertake to convey the views of the right hon. Gentleman to the Lord Chancellor, because it was quite possible that renewed investigation might suggest one or two further improvements. He could assure the hon. Gentleman, however, that to the best of his knowledge what had been done was best.

MR. CLAUDE HAY

said, in view of the explanation, he begged to withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdraw.

MR. CLAUDE HAY moved to omit the words, "Of the custum of gold and silver had oute of the realme." He again ventured to ask a question of the right hon. Gentleman. It might be that the repeal of this enactment might give an advantage to one country over the other.

Amendment proposed— In page 3, line 40, to leave out the words 'of the custum of gold and silver had oute of the realme.' "—(Mr. Claude Hay.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the schedule."

MR. THOMAS SHAW

said that through all the pre-Union period there was a large mass of legislation of a fiercely protective character.

SIR HOWARD VINCENT

You will not repeal that?

MR. THOMAS SHAW

said he gathered that Scotland in those times was determined to be protected against England. When Scotland had to give a race of kings and rebuild the English throne with the Scottish dynasty, and when in other ways Scotland was finding it to be of some advantage to have close relations with England, there was a union of Parliaments in 1707. It was another illustration of how carefully the whole matter had been gone into. Might he make an appeal to hon. Gentlemen? He could assure them that in no sense of the word was there the slightest Party political character in this Bill. He was doing his official duty to the best of his power as successor to those holding his high office, and also carrying out the behests of the most skilled lawyers of this and the last generation. He thought he had shown no unwillingness to give such explanations as would satisfy the House, and he trusted hon. Members would now pass the Bill.

MR. CLAUDE HAY

asked to be allowed to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSON

moved the Amendment standing in the name of Viscount Helmsley to leave out "of strangeris that sellis merchandise in the realme and takis mone tharfor."

Amendment proposed— In page 3, line 42, to leave out the words 'of strangeris that sellis merchandise in the realme and takis mone tharfor.' "—(Mr. Meysey-Thompson.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the schedule."

MR. THOMAS SHAW

said this was another illustration of what he had been saying in answer to previous speakers. It was a case of the repeal of laws with regard to the selling of goods, the taking of money, and the custom of money. The whole repeal arose out of the great historical fact of the Union of the two Kingdoms. That was the whole explanation.

MR. T. L. CORBETT (Down, N.)

said they all accepted the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that there was no Party motive behind this Bill. At the same time he thought there were a large number of points which might be more clearly expressed.

SIR E. CARSON

appealed to the hon. Gentleman to allow the Bill to pass. So far as he could see the Bill was most carefully drawn.

MR. T. L. CORBETT

said he would not pursue the subject after the assurances of his hon. and learned friend and the Lord Advocate.

MR. CLAUDE HAY

asked the Lord Advocate if he would give an undertaking that the remaining stages of the Bill in this House would not be taken for at least a week, so that hon. Members might have time to examine the Bill.

MR. THOMAS SHAW

said he would give the assurance.

MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSON

asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Schedule agreed to.

Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time upon Friday next.