HC Deb 16 July 1906 vol 160 cc1452-88

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1:—

MR. BYLES (Salford, N.)

hoped the Committee would permit him briefly to make one or two general observations before he moved the Amendment he had on the paper, [cries of " Order " and "Chair."]

THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member can only speak to his Amendment.

MR. BYLES

said the Committee would remember that the hon. Member in charge of the Bill had risen night after night and cast certain reflections upon the opponents of the Bill, and that they had no opportunity of replying.

THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member must move his Amendment.

MR. BYLES

said he was only excusing himself for not having replied before. He wished to move to insert words which would provide that unless a person knew that he was committing an illegal act he should not be penalised. He had always regarded it as a principle of English law that a man must be considered innocent unless it was proved to the contrary. The Bill proposed to reverse that.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 6, after the words last inserted, to insert the words ' which he knows to be pirated.' "—(Mr. Byles.)

Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."

MR. HARWOOD (Bolton)

supported the Amendment. He objected to this interference with criminal law being made upon the initiative of private Members. It was a very serious step to take against persons belonging to the poorest and least educated class to put them in the dock and say, " we assume you guilty unless you prove your innocence." That was the essence of the Bill. The present was the fourth Bill which had been introduced on this subject, but it was the first which had contained this clause. On a previous occasion a Grand Committee had unanimously struck out the provision. They were, asked to stretch the principles of English criminal law, which they ought not to do unless for very good reasons shown, and they were asked to do so in the interests of a trade which was in the hands of a syndicate. [" No."] Oh, yes, it was; and unless they were careful they would take from the English public the supply of cheap music. ["How about the composer? "] He did not object to the interests of the composer being guarded, but he objected to attempts to stifle discussion. If the Government were prepared to say that they would be responsible and if they recommended the House to make this departure, he would say no more. The real person who should be struck at was the producer of the pirated music and not the hawker, but if a Liberal Government were prepared to take upon themselves the responsibility for this interference with individual freedom, Liberals like himself would sit still.

THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir JOHN WALTON,) Leeds, S.

said the objections of hon. Members seemed to be to matters rather of form than of substance. He would remind the Committee of the exact scope of this proposal. The Bill provided that if a man was found in possession of property which should upon examination evidence that it was of a pirated character, he should be called upon to explain how that property came into his possession, and if that explanation was unsatisfactory, and if he failed to remove the natural suspicion which his conduct aroused, he could not complain if penalties were inflicted upon him. The Bill was exceptional, but the circumstances were exceptional, and analogies for this kind of treatment were to be found in the Acts dealing with the possession of stolen property, in the Food and Drugs Act, the Merchandise Marks Act, and other Acts where the onus was thrown upon the defendant of explaining his position. If in this case the hawker proved that he was ignorant of the character of the music then his explanation would be accepted under the Bill. Appeal was made to the general principles of law, but there was a very strong recommendation of the Committee to the effect that as a prisoner could now give evidence on his own behalf, and as it was open to him to prove whether he was innocent or not, and the way in which the property came to be in his possession, the burden of proof that he did not know that the music was pirated and could not with reasonable care have ascertained that the music was pirated should rest upon the accused. The conclusion of the Committee was affirmed by two London police magistrates, Mr. Rose and Mr. Dickinson, and also endorsed by Sir Harry Poland, who was an expert in criminal law and a great stickler in regard to all matters of criminal jurisprudence.

MR. LUPTON (Lincolnshire, Sleaford)

said the Attorney-General started by saying that the Bill was an exceptional one and wound up by saying that it was in accordance with general law. He did not see how those statements could be reconciled. The hon. and learned Gentleman talked about stolen property, but this was not a case of that sort. Let them take the case of a patent; the patentee or those interested had to pay so much to the Government and spend thousands of pounds in developing the invention, and yet in that case there was no criminal remedy against an infringer, but only a civil remedy. Hon. Members had said that there was no difficulty in enforcing the law against those who were guilty of selling pirated music. If so what was the use of passing this Bill? A great deal of music was registered as copyright which was not copyright. What they did was to apprehend a hawker for selling pirated music and before the case came on go down and register the piece of music at Stationers Hall. That should have been done before. He had been told by hon. Members that if a man got hold of a piece of music which had not the publisher's name on it the music was pirated. He tested that by going to a stall, and the first piece of music he purchased, and he purchased it for 2d., was " Kathleen Mavourneen." If hon. Members would look at the piece of music which he held in his hand they would find it had not the publisher's name on it, neither was it copyright. It was sung when he was a child and its composer was long since dead. There was nothing to prove whether that was copyright or not, and yet the poor man who was taken up had the onus put upon him to prove that it was not.

MR. LLOYD MORGAN (Carmarthenshire, W.)

supported the Amendment. He said the clause was one he had always taken exception to. He suggested that the Amendment was one of substance and that the Committee had not had adequate time to discuss it. On the whole he was in favour of the Bill, but his view was that the onus of proof should be on the prosecutor. If a charge was brought against a man it was the duty of the prosecutor to establish the offence and not the accused person's duty to establish his innocence. It seemed to him that the Government were taking rather an extraordinary line with regard to the Bill. Three years ago it was introduced by Mr. Galloway and was sent to the Grand Committee on Law. The words now objected to were in the Bill, and after full consideration the Grand Committee came to the conclusion that they ought to be struck out and that the onus of proof should remain on the prosecutor. That Bill was defeated. The late Government then introduced a Bill and accepted loyally the decisions which the Committee upstairs came to. They assumed that the Committee upstairs had gone carefully and fully into the matter, and that their deliberations were of some value. The Bill, which provided that the onus should be on the prosecution was not proceeded with because of lack of time. Then the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool introduced a Bill this session, incorporating all the objectionable features that the Committee upstairs had struck out of the previous Bill. The penal clauses were much more severe, the right of appeal to quarter sessions was absolutely taken away, and the onus of proof was thrown on the prisoner. If the Bill was going to be in the stringent form in which it was now it was much more important that the onus should be on the prosecution. Why should not the prosecution have to establish the guilt of a prisoner in the same way as in all other cases? In the case of a man charged with receiving stolen goods it had to be shown, not only that the goods in his possession were stolen, but that he well knew them to have been stolen. Why should not the same provision be made in regard to pirated music? He was not at all satisfied with the argument of the hon. and learned Gentleman that any man who had pirated music in his possession would know it, or he could go into the witness box and establish his innocence. The hon. and learned Gentleman had referred to the fact that some of the magistrates had given evidence in favour of such a Bill. That evidence, however, did not amount to very much. He agreed that Mr. Rose was a great authority, and if he had made any emphatic statement upon the subject it would influence his view; but the question—a very leading one—put to Mr. Rose, was, " What do you say with regard to that? " So far as he understood, the Departmental Committee had got a copy of the Bill which was introduced in the House of Lords containing this clause, and they put it in the hands of the witnesses, who were asked their opinion about it. Mr. Rose replied— I think that under the circumstances the onus of satisfying the court could he put upon him without any great injustice. He asked any fair-minded man whether that statement of Mr. Rose's entitled him to be called as a witness in support of this contention.

SIR JOHN WALTON

Read on.

MR. LLOYD MORGAN

said the next question put to Mr. Rose was, " Do you think it is desirable that the onus should be put upon him? " and the answer was " Yes." He was not saying that the gentlemen who signed the Report were guilty of so distorting Mr. Rose's evidence as to attribute to him something he did not say, but he was showing the weakness of the evidence in support. It was said that various other authorities were in favour of it, and very likely they were. Sir Harry Poland was a great authority, but he seemed to have a weakness for wishing to throw the onus on to the prisoner rather than on the prosecution. Sir Harry Poland was entitled to hold the views he did, but although he would take his opinion with regard to most questions in criminal matters he declined to accept it in reference to this matter. The Committee would be making a mistake if they refused to accept the Amendment of his hon. friend. If they relaxed this principle of requiring the prosecution to establish the guilt of the prisoner in these small matters, the tendency would be to drift in that direction in larger matters.

MR. BERTRAM (Hertfordshire, Hitchin)

thought the consideration of this Amendment might be combined with the consideration of another Amendment standing in the name of the Home Secretary which he understood would be accepted and which would make a substantial difference in the treatment which would be meted out to these hawkers of pirated music when charged with the offence. As the clause was drawn a hawker was liable even on a first conviction to imprisonment, but the Home Secretary's Amendment substituted a fine for a first offence. It was very plain that the man who was found in possession of pirated music knew it was not honestly come by. There could be no question of piracy in the case of " Kathleen Mavourneen," the copyright of which expired years ago. He thought it would make very little difference in most courts of justice whether the words of the Amendment were inserted or not. He did not believe any substantial injustice would be done to hawkers, because there would be a certain amount of sympathy on the part of magistrates, who must feel that they had not got hold of the real offender. At the same time it was plain that the vendor of pirated music must of necessity make his purchase under circumstances which ought to put him upon suspicion, and although they could not get hold of the real offender they were anxious to give to musical composers the only protection which was possible.

MR. CREAN (Cork, S. E.)

supported the Amendment. He could not understand how any hon. Member who knew the effect of exceptional legislation in Ireland could propose it under this Bill. In Ireland every man on his trial was considered to be guilty before he stood in the dock. This Bill proposed exceptional legislation against the poorest of the poor, men who sometimes could not read the very name of the song they were trying to sell. A man might be deprived of making an honest living because he was afraid to sell a piece of music on which there was no publisher's name. They were dealing with men who were incapable of defending themselves and could not afford to employ solicitors. They were beginning on the lowest rung of the ladder and letting the real culprits off.

MR. J. D. WHITE (Dumbartonshire)

said he should like to support this Amendment because it seemed to him that this was emphatically a case in which they ought to follow the ordinary rule of criminal law, that it ought not to be for the accused person to prove his innocence, but for the prosecution to prove his guilt. In his opinion there ought also to be an express provision requiring the prosecution to prove that the music was copyright, and that it had been registered as copyright before the alleged offence was committed.

MR. MORTON (Sutherland)

said he had not opposed this Bill up to the present stage. This was a clause in regard to which there had been no Second Reading debate, and there had been no defence of it except by the Attorney-General. He should like to know from the head of the Government whether they were to be advised to pass this exceptional law whereby in future a citizen would be adjudged guilty unless he could prove his innocence. That was an exceedingly serious matter. He was surprised to find some of the representatives of Ireland supporting that proposal in view of what their country had suffered under exceptional laws. The Attorney-General's speech was very half-hearted; he was apparently speaking from a brief. The hon. and learned Gentleman had said that the same sort of law existed with regard to the adulteration of food. Evidently he knew nothing at all about that, for, as a matter of fact, the vendor of adulterated food had to be proved guilty. He should like to hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Liberal Government were going to take the responsibility of introducing a law into this country whereby an innocent man charged with an offence would have to prove his innocence. Even the Tory Party last year, wicked and bad as they were, did not dare to propose any such proceedings. Were Liberals going to be worse than Tories? God forbid that he should see anything of the sort.

MR. KEIR HARDIE (Merthyr Tydvil)

said the objection to the clause as it stood was that it might operate harshly towards hawkers who were unconsciously selling pirated music. He asked the Home Secretary whether some distinction could not be drawn between the producer and the seller. If that could be done the objection to the clause would be removed. He spoke as one of the backers of the Bill, but his sympathies were altogether with this Amendment.

THE HOME SECRETARY (Mr. GLADSTONE,) Leeds, W.

said he was unable to accept the Amendment. It would greatly weaken the effect of the Bill. It was in this matter as in the case of coining. It was comparatively easy to lay hold of the man who passed false coin, but it was very difficult to lay hold of the man who coined it. If they exempted the hawker the difficulty of dealing with piracy would be greatly increased. It was well known that a regular business in pirated music had grown up in the last year or two. It was confined to a certain class, and they knew perfectly well what they were doing. He felt certain that if a change was made in the law the offenders would disappear.

MR. BYLES

said that after the explanation given by the Government he must divide the Committee. He thought the defence of the clause as it stood was so extraordinarily weak as to constitute an argument in favour of the Amendment. The hon. and learned Gentleman began by saying that every piece of pirated music had evidence of piracy stamped upon it, and then he turned round and said there was no stamp at all. But he admitted in his next sentence that the clause was exceptional—that unless a man could prove that he was innocent he was guilty. The Attorney-General had said there were two precedents for this, one of them being the Adulteration Act. [" Divide."] If that was so then for God's sake let them not establish another precedent. [" Divide."] Or he would say with a great literary authority that " the law is a Hass." [" Divide."] He proposed to take this one division so far as he was concerned. He wished to say that he had as much sympathy with the suffering composer under the present law as any Gentlemen around him, but there was one thing he would not consent to, even if he stood alone in the House of Commons, and that was to menace the liberties which had been fought for and won by our forefathers. [Ironical cheers.] That was not nonsense. If hon. Members would read their own history they would find that former Parliaments, even centuries ago, had been ready to defend those liberties which were attacked in this Bill. He appealed to those who represented labour — pure labour — to defend the principle that a man should not be put into the dock to prove that he was innocent.

MR. O'HARE (Monaghan, N.)

said he regretted exceedingly to differ from some of his colleagues on this question. He considered that, notwithstanding all the strong speeches they had heard, a sufficient case had not been made out to justify drastic legislation of this kind. If this legislation did not apply to Ire-

land he would give no opposition to its applying to England, Scotland, and Wales. But unfortunately it did apply to Ireland. According to the common law of the country the Crown was under the necessity of setting up a case that the man charged with an offence was likely to be proved guilty; but according to this Bill a man was compelled to prove his innocence before any man had established his right to the copyright of certain pieces of music. He contended that the general feeling was that nineteen persons charged with an offence should escape rather than that one innocent person should be convicted.

MR. LYELL (Dorsetshire, E.)

said he thought a way out of the difficulty would be to put in some words providing that a man would be prosecuted if he sold music without the authority of the composer or the publisher.

Question put.

The Committee divided; Ayes 71; Noes 213. (Division List, No. 220.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Pirie, Duncan V.
Atherley-Jones, L. Haslam, Lewis (.Monmouth) Pollard, Dr.
Barnes, G. N. Hay, Hon. Claude George Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh,Central
Brace, William Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Rendall, Athelstan
Branch. James Hodge, John Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n
Brigg, John Hyde, Clarendon Richardson, A.
Burnyeat. W. J. D. Jowett, F. W. Ridsdale, E. A.
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Kennedy, Vincent Paul Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W Levy, Maurice Seddon, J.
Cooper, G. J. Lupton, Arnold Summerbell, T.
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Walsh, Stephen
Crean, Eugene Macdonald, J. M. (FalkirkB'ghs Watt, H. Anderson
Delany, William Manfield, Harry (Northants) Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Dolan, Charles Joseph Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln White, J. D(Dumbartonshire)
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Marks, H. H. (Kent) White, Patrick (Meath. North)
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Wilkie, Alexander
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas William J. (Glamorgan)
Evans, Samuel T. Nussey, Thomas Willans Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.
Everett, R. Lacey O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Wilson,J. W. (Worcestersh, N.
Fullerton. Hugh O'Grady. J. Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton
Gill, A. H. O'Hare, Patrick Winfrey, R.
Glover, Thomas O'Mara, James
Goddard, Daniel Ford Parker, James (Halifax) TELLERS FOR THE AYES, Mr.
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) Byles and Mr. Harwood.
Hardie,J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil Pickersgill, Edward Hare
NOES.
Abraham, William(Cork,N.E.) Ainsworth, John Stirling Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.HughO
Acland, Francis Dyke Anson, Sir William Reynell Astbury, John Meir
Acland-Hood.Rt.Hn.SirAlexF. Arkwright, John Stanhope Balcarres, Lord
Agnew, George William Armitage, R. Balfour, Robert (Lanark)
Banbury, Sir FrederickGeorge Halpin, J. Radford, G. H.
Baring,Godfrey(Isle of Wight) Hamilton, Marquess of Raphael, Herbert H.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Barran, Rowland Hirst Hart-Davies, T. Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'
Barrie,HT.(Londonderry, N.) Hayden, John Patrick Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Beale, W. P. Hazleton, Richard Redmond, William (Clare)
Beaumont,Hubert(Eastbourne Hedges, A. Paget Rees, J. D.
Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham Helme, Norval Watson Renton, Major Leslie
Benn,SirJ.Williams(Devonp'rt Henry, Charles S. Rickett, J. Compton
Benn,W.(T'w'tHamlets,S.Geo Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon.. S.) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Berridge, T. H. D. Hervey,F. W.F.(BuryS. Edm' ds Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Bertram, Julius Higham, John Sharp Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall
Bignold, Sir Arthur Hobart, Sir Robert Robertson, SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd
Billson, Alfred Hogan, Michael Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff) Hope, W. Bateman(SomersetN Robinson, S.
Boland, John Horniman, Emslie John Rose, Charles Day
Bowles, G. Stewart Horridge, Thomas Gardner Runciman, Walter
Brocklehurst, W. B. Hunt, Rowland Russell, T. W.
Brooke, Stopford Jenkins, J. Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Brotherton, Edward Allen Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Bryce,J.A.(InvernessBurghs) Jones, Leif (Appleby) Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Jones. William (Carnarvonshire Scarisbrick, T. T. L.
Buxton,Rt.Hn. Sydney Charles Kearley, Hudson E. Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne
Cairns, Thomas Kekewich, Sir George Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.
Campbell, Rt.Hon. J. H. M. Kincaid-Smith, Captain Seely, Major J. B.
Carlile, E. Hildred King. Alfred John (Knutsford) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Laidlaw, Robert Silcock, Thomas Ball
Carson, Rt.Hon. Sir Edw. H. Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Simon, John Allsebrook
Causton.Rt.Hn.RichardKnight Lambert, George Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Lamont, Norman Sloan, Thomas Henry
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Smiht, Abel H. (Hertford,East
Clarke, C. Goddard Leese, Sir JosephF.(Accrington Smith, F.E. (Liverpool,Walton
Clough, W. Lehmann, R. C. Soares, Ernest J.
Coats,SirT.Glen(Renfrew,W.) Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulhp (Chesh.
Cogan, Denis J. Lever, W.H. (Cheshire,Wirral) Starkey, John R.
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Lewis, John Herbert Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Lundon, W. Strachey, Sir Edward
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Maclean, Donald Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Corbett,C.H.(SussexE.Grinst'd MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) M'Crae, George Sullivan, Donal
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. M'Hugh, Patrick A. Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Courthope, G, Loyd M'Kenna, Reginald Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Cox, Harold M'Killop, W. Tennant, SirEdward(Salisbury
Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.) M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Crombie, John William M'Micking, Major G. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Crossley, William J. Marnham, F. J. Thompson, J. W.H.(Somerset,E.
Cullinan, J. Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Thomson,W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Massie, J. Thornton, Percy M.
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway Meagher, Michael Tomkinson, James
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Meehan, Patrick A. Ure, Alexander
Duckworth, James Menzies, Walter Valentia, Viscount
Duffy, William J. Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Verney, W. F.
Dunne,MajorE.Martin(Walsall Mond, A. Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Edwards, Frank (Radnor) Mooney, J, J. White, George (Norfolk)
Elibank, Master of Morse, L. L. White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Murray, James Whitehead, Rowland
Essex, R. W. Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Faber, George Denison (York) Nicholls, George Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthn
Ferens, T. R, Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro Norman, Henry Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Norton, Capt. Cecil William Woodhouse, SirJ.T.(Huddersfd
Findlay, Alexander Nuttall, Harry Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Fletcher, J. S. O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid Younger, George
Forster, Henry William O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Fuller, John Michael F. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Ginnell, L. O'Dowd, John Pease.
Gladstone.Rt.Hn Herbert John O'Malley, William
Gulland, John W. Paul, Herbert

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 7, leave out the words, that he acted innocently,' and to insert the words, ' as to any pirated copies that he had taken reasonable steps to ascertain whether the said copies were pirated, and did in fact believe that they were not pirated, and as to any plates that he had taken reasonable steps to ascertain whether the said plates were intended to be used for the purpose of printing or reproducing pirated copies, and did in fact believe that they were not intended for that purpose.' "—(Mr. T. P. O'Connor.)

Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part."

MR. LUPTON

said the Amendment appeared to him to make the Bill worse than before. They first put a man in the dock and then made their case out of his mouth. In the debate just concluded the Committee had discussed the question of the accused man having to prove his innocence, but by this Amendment not only was the onus of proving his innocence placed upon the accused man, but he had to take a particular course, he had to prove that he had taken reasonable steps to ascertain whether the said copies were pirated.

SIR JOHN WALTON

suggested that the Amendment should be withdrawn. He pointed out that they had discussed whether the onus should be cast on the person prosecuted, that he should prove that he "obtained it innocently" and those words covered every conceivable case.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

said he would certainly withdraw the Amendment on the suggestion of the hon. and learned Gentleman.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. LUPTON

said the great difficulty in this case was to know who was the owner of the copyright. He thought that should be ascertained before the prosecution was started. This Bill gave the owner of a musical copyright an extremely drastic method of procedure, and therefore he thought they should provide, as he did by his Amendment, an authorised prosecutor. The promoters of this Bill only desired to get the best price for the music. It was not in the interest of the composers as had been suggested, otherwise the promoters would have agreed to his suggestion that they should put in a clause that there should be no prosecution unless it was proved that the composer was getting something out of the music. When such drastic methods of procedure were allowed to the owners of copyright the public should also be protected.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

, on a point of order, said the hon. Gentleman for the last ten minutes had been discussing everything but the Amendment.

THE CHAIRMAN

said the hon. Gentleman was certainly not in order in discussing the question of the price of music.

MR. LUPTON

said he would conclude by saying that this drastic criminal procedure should only be applied when there was an authorised prosecutor to conduct the prosecution.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, lines 8 and 9, to leave out from the word ' conviction,' to end of line 9, and to insert the words ' if the prosecution is instituted by an authorised prosecutor.' "—(Mr. Lupton.)

Question proposed, " That words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

MR. GLADSTONE

said the Amendment he had put on the paper showed that he was in favour of the first part of the hon. Gentleman's Amendment, He was opposed to the latter part, which he thought was quite unnecessary. It was necessary, however, to leave out the words he proposed to leave out because they included the Channel Islands, which were not included in the existing Act, and therefore they made nonsense of the Bill. Another reason was that the Government's relations with the Channel Islands were of a somewhat delicate nature, and it was customary in such cases to refer the matter to them.

Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause," put, and negatived.

Question, " That the words 'if the prosecution is instituted by an authorised prosecutor' be there inserted," put, and negatived.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, lines 10 and 11, to leave out the words, ' imprisonment, with or without hard labour, for a term not exceeding one month, or to.' "—(Mr. Gladstone.)

Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

MR. LUPTON

moved an Amendment with the object of making the penalty, he said, fit the offence. To summon a hawker and fine him £5 was tantamount to sending him to gaol, because he would be unable to pay the fine. If the maximum as he proposed were £1 and 2s. for each copy over ten copies, and £5 for each plate in respect of which the offence was committed, the Bill would be a little more reasonable. The fines he proposed would be quite sufficient to prevent a repetition of the offence, it would make conviction much easier, and cause a great deal less hardship.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 12, to leave out from beginning of line to the word ' Any,' in line 14, and to insert the words, ' not exceeding one pound and two shillings for each copy over ten copies, and five pounds for each plate in respect of which the offence is committed.' "— (Mr. Lupton.)

Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

MR. GLADSTONE

said he thought the Bill as it stood was much better.

MR. LUPTON

said it seemed a most abominable law to pass. He little expected that the Ministerial side of the House would have been in favour of such drastic laws. He sincerely hoped the Committee would not pass a clause imposing a penalty of two months imprisonment for selling a piece of music. The selling of a piece of music was not a bad thing in itself, but was a good and meritorious act.

Amendment negatived.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS (Glamorganshire, Mid.)

moved to leave out from " pounds" in line 14 to the end of the clause. He was in favour of the Bill so far as it was for the protection of musical composers. He was only sorry they were by this Bill getting at the poor people who were trying to make a living, perhaps with a very inaccurate knowledge of the subject. It was a very tall order to say that a man was to be taken into custody without any warrant if he happened to have in his possession in a public place any pirated music at all. They would not be punishing the real offenders. He protested strongly against the principle in this clause, and it would be perfectly inconsistent, after having struck out the possibility of imprisonment for the first offence, to leave in the words he asked the Committee to reject.

MR. J. D. WHITE

seconded the Amendment. He considered that the proposal for arrest without warrant was quite unjustified. There was no provision that the copyright should be registered, and even if there were, a great many bogus copyrights had been registered. How could a constable form an opinion as to whether a given piece of music was copyright or not? If there was to be any such provision as these words proposed, he would make two suggestions. In the first place there should be proof that the copyright had been registered, and, secondly, there should be a request by the owner of the copyright that the alleged offender should be taken into custody, so that if the arrest had been wrongful, the man who had been wrongfully arrested should have every facility for obtaining damages from the person who had abused the law.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 14, to leave out from the word 'pounds' to end of clause."—(Mr. Samuel Evans.)

Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

SIR JOHN WALTON

said that it appeared to him that a hawker was a person whom it would be difficult to arrest unless they gave some discretion to the constable to take him into custody. If the aggrieved person had to apply to the magistrate for a summons, and had then to return to the place where he last saw the hawker, he might find that the hawker had gone away. The figures before the Committee showed how difficult it was under the legislation of 1902 even to serve the first process in the step by which a conviction was sought to be secured.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

said there were 5,000 or 6,000 summonses taken out by the Musical Copyright Association and only 278 were served.

SIR JOHN WALTON

said those engaged in the trade were perfectly well aware of the character of the music they were selling. They were persons against whom no civil proceedings could be brought. [An HON. MEMBER: Deal with their licences.] They had no licences, and the only way of making criminal proceedings effectual was to give the constable in this case the discretion, which he already possessed under various Acts of Parliament, to arrest without warrant. If a hawker were asked to go to the police station and if he could show to the inspector that he was a respectable man, and had a good answer to the charge, he did not think he would be detained in custody. He, therefore, trusted the Committee would refuse the Amendment.

Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause," put.

THE CHAIRMAN

The " Ayes" have it. [Some HON. MEMBERS: The Noes have it."]

THE CHAIRMAN

called upon the Home Secretary to move the next Amendment. [Renewed cries of " The Noes have it.]

THE CHAIRMAN

said he had declared " The Ayes have it," and he was really very sorry that he did not hear the cries of " The Noes have it."

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

said he heard the cries.

MAJOR SEELY (Liverpool, Abercromby)

said he also heard the cries.

THE CHAIRMAN

I am not disputing in any way that there were cries. What I said was that the cries did not reach me nor, I may add, those sitting near me.

MR. CREAN

moved to report progress.

Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Chairman do report Progress; and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Crean.)

MR. GLADSTONE

appealed to the hon. Member not to press the Motion.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 45; Noes, 191. (Division List, No. 221.)

AYES.
Acland-Hood,Rt.Hn.SirAlexF. Hay, Hon. Claude George Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Seddon, J.
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. Hodge, John Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton
Bowles, G. Stewart Kennedy, Vincent Paul Sullivan, Donal
Brace, William Lupton, Arnold Summerbell, T.
Byles, William Pollard Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark
Carlile, E. Hildred Marks, H. H. (Kent) Valentia, Viscount
Cooper, G. J. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Watt, H. Anderson
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) O'Hare, Patrick Wilkie, Alexander
Delany, William O'Mara, James Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Parker, James (Halifax) Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mptn Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Evans, Samuel T. Ridsdale, E. A.
Forster, Henry William Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Hardie,.J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil) Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Crean and Mr. Patrick White.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E. Goddard, Daniel Ford Nussey, Thomas Willans
Acland, Francis Dyke Gulland, John W. Nuttall, Harry
Agnew, George William Halpin, J. O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid
Ainsworth, John Stirling Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Arkwright, John Stanhope Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) O'Connor. T. P. (Liverpool)
Armitage, R. Hayden, John Patrick O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)
Arnold-Forster.Rt.Hn.HughO. Hazelton, Richard O'Dowd, John
Astbury, John Meir Hedges, A. Paget O'Malley, William
Balcarres, Lord Helme, Norval Watson Paul, Herbert
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Henry, Charles S. Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.) Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Hervey, F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds Pollard, Dr.
Barran, Rowland Hirst Higham, John Sharp Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh.Central)
Beale, W. P. Hobart, Sir Robert Radford, G. H.
Beaumont,Hubert(Eastbourne Hogan, Michael Raphael, Herbert H.
Beaumont. W. C. B. (Hexham) Horniman, Emslie John Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Benn,SirJ.Williams(Devonp'rt Hunt, Rowland Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'
Benn, W. (T'wrHamlets.S.Geo. Jenkins, J. Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Berridge, T. H. D. Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Redmond. William (Clare)
Bertram, Julius Jones, Leif (Appleby) Rendall, Athelstan
Bignold, Sir Arthur Jones, William(Carnarvonshire Renton, Major Leslie
Billson, Alfred Kearley, Hudson E. Richardson. A.
Black, Alexander Win. (Banff) Kekewich, Sir George Rickett, J. Compton
Boland, John Kilbride, Denis Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Branch, James King, Alfred John(Knutsford Robertson, SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd
Brooke, Stopford Laidlaw, Robert Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Brotherton, Edward Allen Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Robinson, S.
Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs Lambert, George Rose, Charles Day
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Lamont, Norman Russell, T. W.
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Buxton, Rt. Hn.Sydney Chas. Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington) Samuel. S. M. (Whitechapel)
Cairns, Thomas Lehmann, R. C. Scarisbrick. T. T. L.
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Lever, W. H. (Cheshire,Wirral) Seely, Major B.
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Levy, Maurice Shipman, Dr. John G.
Clarke, C. Goddard Lewis, John Herbert Silcock, Thomas Ball
Clough, W. Lundon, W. Sloan. Thomas Henry
Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew,W.) Lyell, Charles Henry Soares, Ernest J.
Cogan, Denis J. Macdonald, J.M. (FalkirkB'ghs Stanley, Hn. F. Lyulph(Chesh.
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Maclean, Lonald Starkey, John R.
Condon, Thomas Joseph MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S. Strachey, Sir Edward
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) M'Crae, George Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Corbett,C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstd M'Hugh, Patrick A. Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. M'Kenna, Reginald Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury
Courthope, J. Loyd M'Killop, W. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Crombie, John William M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Thompson. J. W. H. (Somerset,E
Crossley, William J. M'Micking, Major G. Tomkinson, James
Cullinan, J. Manfield, Harry (Northants) Ure, Alexander
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) Verney, F. W.
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway Marnham, F. J. Walton. Sir John

. (Leeds, S.)
Dolan, Charles Joseph Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Wedgwood. Josiah F.
Duckworth, James Massie, J. White. George (Norfolk)
Duffy, William J. Meagher, Michael White, Luke (York. E.R.)
Dunne, MajorE.Martin(Walsall Meehan, Patrick A. Whitehead, Rowland
Edwards, Frank (Radnor) Menzies, Walter Whitley. J. H. (Halifax)
Elibank, Master of Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Essex, R. W. Mond, A. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.
Everett, R. Lacey Montagu, E. S. Wilson. P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Ferens, T. R. Morse, L. L. Wood. T. M'Kinnon,
Ferguson, R. C. Munro Murphy, John Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-
Fuller, John Michael F. Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Younger, George
Fullerton, Hugh Nicholls, George
Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Ginnell, L. Norman, Henry Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerberJohn Norton, Capt. Cecil William Pease.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 16, after the word ' who,' to insert the words ' in any street or public place.' "—(Mr. Secretary Gladstone.)

Question put, " That those words be there inserted."

THE CHAIRMAN

named Mr. Whiteley And Mr. Joseph Pease as Tellers for the Ayes; but no Member being willing to act as Teller for the Noes, the Chairman declared the Ayes had it.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

moved to insert after the Home Secretary's Amendment the word " knowingly." A person should not be convicted, in his judgment,

unless he knowingly committed an offence.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 17, after the words last inserted, to insert the word ' knowingly.' "— (Mr. Samuel Evans.)

Question put, " That the word ' knowingly ' be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 40; Noes, 190. (Division List No. 222.)

AYES.
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. Hodge, John Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Bowles, G. Stewart Kennedy, Vincent Paul Seddon, J.
Branch, James Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Sullivan, Donal
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Lupton, Arnold Summerbell, T.
Byles, William Pollard Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Cooper, G. J. Marks, H. H. (Kent) White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Murphy, John White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Wilkie, Alexander
Crean, Eugene O'Hare, Patrick Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Delany, William O'Mara, James Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Dolan, Charles Joseph Parker, James (Halifax)
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Everett, R. Lacey Pollard, Dr. Samuel Evans and Mr.
Hardie, J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil) Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mptn Arthur Henderson.
Hay, Hon. Claude George Ridsdale, E. E.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)
Acland, Francis Dyke Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Hayden, John Patrick
Acland-Hood,Rt.Hn.SirAlex F. Clarke, C. Goddard Hazleton, Richard
Agnew, George William Clough, W. Hedges, A. Paget
Ainsworth, John Stirling Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew,W.) Helme, Norval Watson
Arkwright, John Stanhope Cogan, Denis J. Henry, Charles S.
Armitage, R. Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)
Arnold-Forster, Rt.Hn.HughO. Condon, Thomas Joseph Hervey,F. W. F. (BuryS.Edm'ds
Astbury, John Meir Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Higham, John Sharp
Balcarres, Lord Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinstd Hobart, Sir Robert
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hogan, Michael
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Courthope, G. Loyd Horniman, Emslie John
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Crombie, John William Hunt, Rowland
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Crossley, William J. Jenkins, J.
Barran, Rowland Hirst Cullinan, J. Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)
Beale, W. P. Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Beaumont,Hubert (Eastbourne Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway Jones,William (Carnarvonshire
Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) Duckworth, James Kearley, Hudson E.
Benn,Sir J.Williams(Devonp'rt Duffy, William J. Kekewich, Sir George
Benn,W.(T'wrHamlets,S.Geo.) Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Kilbride, Denis
Berridge, T. H. D. Dunne, MajorE.Martin(Walsall King, Alfred John (Knutsford)
Bertram, Julius Edwards, Frank (Radnor) Laidlaw, Robert
Bignold, Sir Arthur Elibank, Master of Lambert, George
Billson, Alfred Essex, R. W. Lamont, Norman
Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff) Ferens, T. R. Law, Hugh N. (Donegal, W.)
Boland, John Ferguson, R. C. Munro Leese,SirJosephF. (Accrington)
Brace, William Forster, Henry William Lehmann, R. C.
Brigg, John Fuller, John Michael F. Lever, A.Levy(Essex,Harwich)
Brooke, Stopford Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, W.) Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)
Brotherton, Edward Allen Ginnell, L. Levy, Maurice
Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs) Gladstone, RtHn.HerbertJohn Lewis, John Herbert
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Goddard, Daniel Ford Lundon, W.
Cairns, Thomas Gulland, John W. Lyell, Charles Henry
Carlile, E. Hildred Halpin, J. Macdonald, J.M(FalkirkB'ghs)
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Maclean, Donald
MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. O'Dowd, John Smith, F.E. (Liverpool,Walton
M'Crae, George O'Malley, William Soares, Ernest J.
M'Hugh, Patrick A. Paul, Herbert Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.
M'Kenna, Reginald Pickersgill, Edward Hare Starkey, John R.
M'Killop, W. Price, C.E.(Edinburgh,Central) Strachey, Sir Edward
M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Radford, G. H. Straus, B.S.(Mile End)
M'Micking, Major G. Raphael, Herbert H. Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Manfield, Harry (Northants) Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)
Mansfield, H. Kendall (Lincoln) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Marnham, F. J. Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Thompson,J. W. H.(Somerset,E.
Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Redmond, William (Clare) Tomkinson, James
Massie, J. Ronton, Major Leslie Ure, Alexander
Meagher, Michael Richardson, A. Valentia, Viscount
Meehan, Patrick A. Rickett, J. Compton Verney, F. W.
Menzies, Walter Roberto, Chas. H. (Lincoln) Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Robertson, Sir G.Scott(Bradf'd Watt, H. Anderson
Mond, A. Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) White, George (Norfolk)
Montagu, E. S. Robinson, S. White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Morse, L. L. Rose, Charles Day Whitehead, Rowland
Newnes, A. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Russell, T. W. Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Nicholls, George Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Williams,Llewelvn(Carmarth'n
Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Williams, Col. R (Dorset, W.)
Norman, Henry Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Norton, Capt, Cecil Williams Scarisbrick, T. T. L. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-
Nussey, Thomas Willans Scott, A. H.(Ashton underLyne Younger, George.
Nuttall, Harry Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.) Seely, Major J. B. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Shipman, Dr. John G. Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Silcock, Thomas Ball Pease.
O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) Sloan, Thomas Henry '

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 17, to leave out the words ' pirated music,' and insert the words ' such copies as aforesaid.' "—(Mr. Secretary Gladstone.)

Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause," put, and negatived.

Proposed words inserted.

Motion made, and Question put,. " That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 205; Noes, 22. (Division List No. 223.)

AYES.
Abraham, W m. (Cork, N.E.) Brooke, Stopford Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)
Acland, Francis Dyke Brotherton, Edward Allen Dunne,MajorE.Martin(Walsall
Acland-Hood,Rt.Hn.SirAlex.F Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs Edwards, Frank (Radnor)
Agnew, George William Burns, Rt. Hon. John Elibank, Master of
Ainsworth, John Stirling Cairns, Thomas Essex, R. W.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Carlile, E. Hildred Evans, Samuel T.
Armitage, R. Carr-Gomm, H. W. Everett, R. Lacey
Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.HughO. Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Ferens, T. R.
Astbury, John Meir Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Ferguson, R. C. Munro
Balcarres, Lord Clarke, C. Goddard Forster, Henry William
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Clough, W. Fuller, John Michael F.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Coats, SirT. Glen(Renfrew, W.) Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Cogan, Denis J. Ginnell, L.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Gladstone, Rt.Hn. Herbert J.
Barran, Rowland Hirst Condon, Thomas Joseph Goddard, Daniel Ford
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow Gulland, John W.
Beale, W. P. Corbett,C.H(Sussex,E.Grinst'd Halpin, J.
Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Hardie, J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil)
Benn, Sir J.Williams(Devonp't Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)
Benn,W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo. Courthope, G. Loyd Hay, Hon. Claude George
Berridge, T. H. D. Crombie, John William Hayden, John Patrick
Bertram, Julius Crossley, William J. Hazleton, Richard
Bignold, Sir Arthur Cullinan, J. Hedges, A. Paget
Billson, Alfred Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S. Helme, Norval Watson.
Black, Alexander. Wm. (Banff). Devlin, Chas. Ramsay(Galway Henderson. Arthur (Durham)
Boland, John Duckworth, James Henry, Charles S.
Bowles, G. Stewart Duffy, William, J. Herbert, Col. Ivor(Mon., S.)
Hervey,F.W.F.(BurySEdm'ds) Meagher, Michael Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)
Higham, John Sharp Meehan, Patrick A. Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Hobart, Sir Robert Menzies, Walter Scarisbrick, T. T. L.
Hogan, Michael Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Scott,A.H(Ashton under Lyne)
Horniman, Emslie John Mond, A. Seely, Major J. B.
Hunt, Rowland Montague, E. S. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Jenkins. J. Morse, L. L. Silcock, Thomas Ball
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Murphy, John Sloan, Thomas Henry
Jones, Leif (Appleby) Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Smith, F. E. (Liverpool,Walton.
Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. Nicholls, George Soares, Ernest J.
Kearley, Hudson E. Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.
Kekewich, Sir George Norman, Henry Starkey, John R.
Kilbride, Denis Norton, Capt. Cecil William Strachey, Sir Edward
King, Alfred J. (Knutsford) Nussey, Thomas Willans Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Laidlaw, Robert Nuttall, Harry Sullivan, Donal
Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.) Summerbell, T.
Lambert, George O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Lamont, Norman O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Tennant.Sir Edward (Salisbury
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)
Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) O'Dowd, John Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset
Lehmann, R. C. O'Malley, William Tomkinson, James
Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich) Parker, James (Halifax) Ure, Alexander
Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) Paul, Herbert Valentia, Viscount
Levy, Maurice Pearce, Robers (Staffs, Leek) Verney, F. W.
Lewis, John Herbert Pickersgill, Edward Hare Walton, Sir J. L (Leeds, S.)
Lundon, W. Pollard, Dr. Watt, H. Anderson
Lyell, Charles Henry Price, C. E. (Edinbugh, Central) White, George (Norfolk)
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Radford, G. H. White, Luke (York, E.D.)
Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs Raphael, Herbert H. Whitehead, Rowland
Maclean, Donald Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' Wilkie, Alexander
M'Crae, George Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
M'Hugh, Patrick A. Redmond, William (Clare) Williams.Llewelyn (Carmarth'n
M'Kenna, Reginald Renton, Major Leslie Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
M'Killop, W. Richardson, A. Wilson, Henry J.(York, W.D.)
M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Rickett, J. Compton Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
M'Micking, Major G. Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Manfield, Harry (Northants) Robertson,SirG.Scott (Bradf rd Younger, George
Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Marks, H. H. (Kent) Robinson, S. TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr.
Marnham, F. J. Rose, Charles Day Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Mason, A. E. W (Coventry) Russell, T. W. Pease.
Massie, J. Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
NOES.
Brace, William Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Branch, James Hodge, John Seddon, J.
Brigg, John Kennedy, Vincent Paul White, J. D. (Dumbartonsnire)
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Lupton, Arnold Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Byles, William Pollard O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Cooper, G. J. O'Hare, Patrick TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) O'Mara, James Crean and Mr. Patrick
Delany, William Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mptn White.
Dolan, Charles Joseph Ridsdale, E. A.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 2:—

MR. GLADSTONE

said he had a number of Amendments to the clause on the Paper and he would state their general purport to the Committee. The clause dealt with the question of search warrants, and in the opinion of the Government it was too drastic. All the Amendments standing in his name must be taken together. The object was to prevent a constable from entering premises by force without a search warrant properly granted. In the second place the Amendment would allow a constable who had a search warrant to seize any pirated music found on the premises, and he was not confined to those pieces which might be specified. The Act as it stood enabled a constable to break into a house and seize the pirated copies of a particular piece of music without a search warrant, but the seizure was restricted to the copies of that specified piece.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 18, to leave out the words ' Any constable authorised by an order of,' and insert the word ' if.' "—(Mr. Secretary Gladstone.)

Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

MR. O'HARE

said the fragmentary way in which the Amendments appeared gave the Committee no idea of what actually was going to be the effect of the Amendments. He did not think it was fair to ask them to approve of a clause as to which they had no exact indication of the effect it might have upon the unfortunate people who might come within its meshes. On these grounds he would ask to report progress.

THE CHAIRMAN

said he could not reasonably accept the Motion after so recent a division upon a similar Motion.

MR. CREAN

said these appeared to be rather drastic Amendments tacked on to a most drastic clause. The first clause was bad and was not much improved by the Amendments inserted. It was impossible to realise what the effect of Clause 2 would be. They were asked to swallow this gilded pill, and the gilt that was put on might be worse than the ingredients. Would the Secretary of State for the Home Department explain what the effect of the clause with the Amendments would be.?

MR. GLADSTONE

read the clause in the form in which he proposed to amend it.

Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause," put, and negatived.

Proposed word " if " inserted.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 19, leave out the words from ' jurisdiction,' to ' between,' in line 21, and insert the words ' is satisfied by information on oath that there is reasonable ground for suspecting that an offence against this Act is being committed on any premises, the court may giant a search warrant authorising the constable named therein to enter the premises.' "—(Mr. Gladstone.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, lines 22 and 23, to leave out the words ' enter any house or place named in such order.' "—(Mr. Gladstone.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 23, after the word 'necessary ' to insert' to.' "—(Mr. Gladstone.)

Question proposed, " That the word ' to ' be there inserted."

MR. O'HARE

said an Amendment in his name had priority, and he desired to ask the Chairman whether each Member had not an equal right in this House.

THE CHAIRMAN

said he had not examined whether the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman could have been proposed, but he thought the Amendments of the Secretary of State were generally accepted, and that all the other Amendments would not be moved. In any Case he had passed the point of the hon. Gentleman's Amendment and he could not go back to it now.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 25, after the word 'otherwise,' to insert the words ' and to seize any copies of any musical work or any plates in respect of which he has reasonable ground for suspecting that an offence against this Act is being committed. (2) All copies of any musical work and plates seized under this section shall be brought before a court of summary jurisdiction, and if proved to be pirated copies or plates intended to be used for the printing or reproduction of pirated copies shall be forfeited and destroyed or otherwise dealt with as the court think fit.' " —(Mr. Gladstone.)

Question put, " That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 216; Noes, 3. (Division List No. 224.)

AYES.
Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.) Ferens, T. R. Montagu, E. S.
Acland, Francis Dyke Ferguson, R. C. Munro Morse, L. L.
Acland-Hood,RtHn.Sir Alex.F Forster Henry William Murphy, John
Agnew, George William Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)
Ainsworth, John Stirling Ginnell, L. Nicholls, George
Arkwright, John Stanhope Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster
Armitage, R. Goddard, Daniel Ford Norman, Henry
Arnold-Forster, Rt.Hn.HughO. Gulland, John W. Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Balcarres, Lord. Halpin, J. Nussey, Thomas Willans
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Hardie, J.Keir (Merthyr Tydvil Nuttall, Harry
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.)
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Hayden, John Patrick O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Barron, Rowland Hirst Hazleton, Richard O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. Hedges, A. Paget O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)
Beale, W. P. Helme, Norval Watson O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Dowd, John
Benn, Sir JWilliams(Devonp'rt Henry, Charles S. O'Malley, William
Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets.S.Geo. Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon. S.) O'Mara, James
Berridge, T. H. D. Hervey, F. W. F. (BuryS. Edm'ds Parker, James (Halifax)
Bertram, Julius Higham, John Sharp Paul, Herbert
Bignold, Sir Arthur Hobart, Sir Robert Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)
Billson, Alfred Hodge, John Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff)] Hogan, Michael Pollard, Dr.
Boland, John Horniman, Emslie John Price, E. E. (Edinburgh, Cen.
Bowles, G. Stewart Hunt, Rowland Radford, G. H.
Brace, William Jenkins, J. Raphael, Herbert H.
Branch, James Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Brigg. John Jones, Leif (Appleby) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'
Brooke, Stopford Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Brotherton, Edward Allen. Kearley, Hudson E. Redmond, William (Clare)
Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs) Kekewich, Sir George Renton, Major Leslie
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Kennedy, Vincent Paul Richards, T. F. (Wolverhamt'n
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Kilbride, Denis Richardson, A.
Byles, William Pollard King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Rickett, J. Compton
Cairns, Thomas Laidlaw, Robert Ridsdale, E. A.
Carlile, E. Hildred Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln)
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Lambert, George Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Cecil, LordJohn P. Joicey- Lamont, Norman Roberston,SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Clarke, C. Goddard Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Robinson, S.
Clough, W. Lehmann, R. C. Rose, Charles Day
Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew,W. Lever, A. Levy(Essex,Harwich Russell, T. W.
Cogan, Denis J. Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) Rutherford, W. W.(Liverpool)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Levy, Maurice Samuel, Herbert L (Cleveland)
Cooper, G. J. Lewis, John Herbert Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Lundon, W. Scarisbrick, T. T. L.
Corbett,CH(Sussex,EGrinst'd.) Lyell, Charles Henry Scott, A. H.(Ashton und. Lyne)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Seddon, J.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Macdonald,J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs) Seely, Major J. B.
Courthope, G. Loyd Maclean, Donald Shipman, Dr. John G.
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) MacVeagh,Jeremiah (Down.S.) Silcock, Thomas Ball
Crombie, John William M'Crae, George Soares, Ernest J.
Crossley, William J. M'Hugh, Patrick A. Stanley, Hn A. Lyulph (Chesh)
Cullinan, J. M'Kenna, Reginald Starkey, John R.
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) M'Killop, W. Strachey, Sir Edward
Delany, William M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway M'Micking, Major G. Sullivan, Donal
Dolan, Charles Joseph Manfield, Harry (Northants) Summerbell, T.
Duckworth, James Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)
Duffy, William J. Marnham, F. J. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Dunn, A. Edward(Camborne) Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Thompson, J. W.H.(Som'set,E.)
Dunne, Maj. E. Martin(Walsall Massie, J. Tomkinson, James
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Meagher, Michael Ure, Alexander
Edwards, Frank (Radnor) Meehan, Patrick A. Valentia, Viscount
Elibank, Master of Menzies, Walter Verney, F. W.
Essex, R. W. Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Everett, R. Lacey Mond, A. Watt, H. Anderson
Wedgwood, Josiah C. Williams, J. (Glamorgan) Younger, George
White, George (Norfolk) Williams, Llewelyn (Carm'th'n)
White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
White, Luke (York, E.R.) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Whitehead, Rowland Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S. Pease.
Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Wilkie, Alexander Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
NOES.
Hay, Hon. Claude George TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Lupton, Arnold Patrick White and Mr.
O'Hare, Patrick Crean.

Motion made, and Question, " That this House do now adjourn,"—(Mr. Whiteley)—put, and agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3:—

Amendments made.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

moved an Amendment to exclude appliances used for playing mechanical instruments from the expressions " pirated copies " and " plates." He said this proviso was proposed in consequence of an engagement he had made to those interested in the gramaphone and other instruments who thought that their property would be imperilled by this Bill. There was no such intention.

Amendment proposed— In page 2, line 4, at end, to add the words ' provided also that the expressions " pirated copies " and " plates" shall not, for the purposes of this Act, be deemed to include perforated music rolls used for playing mechanical instruments, or records used for the production of sound waves, or the matrices or other appliances by which such rolls or records respectively are made.' "—(Mr. T. P. O'Connor.)

Question put, '' That these words be there added."

MR. LUPTON

said it was hardly creditable to the House that they should pass a Bill which imposed penalties on certain music sellers and exempted others from the penalties.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4:—

MR. O'HARE

moved that Clause 4 should not apply to Ireland. No evidence had been produced that there was anything of the kind referred to Ireland, He was therefore surprised that the Government wanted to apply this new crime to Ireland and to thrust into the hands of the police of Ireland the power to break open doors with a power of search and all the rest of it. He believed that if these new powers were applied to Ireland they would produce consequences greater than were intended to be removed.

MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford)

said that the speech of his hon. friend did not represent the views of the majority of the Irish Members, because while the pirate musical trade was at present absent from Ireland, the consummation they were bound to wish for was that it should be avoided in their country. Therefore, if a division were taken, the immense majority of the Irish Members would vote in favour of the clause.

MR. CREAN

said that the great majority of the Irish Members were opposed to anything approaching coercion in Ireland. And they objected to these additional powers being given to the police in Ireland. How many times had they come to this House and opposed the action of the police in using their weapons against the people of the country? [Ironical OPPOSITION laughter.] That might be a matter of laughter for hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition side of the House, but he would be very sorry to give more power into the hands of the police in Ireland. The Amendment proposed that Ireland should be left out of the operation of this Bill. This was not the first time that a request had been made for the exclusion of Ireland from the operation of a Bill applicable to the rest of the United Kingdom. He had no particular interest in this Bill; but what he and his friends asked for was that the Government should not give more power to the police for coercion work in Ireland. They were dealing with men who had created crimes in Ireland, and why should they give them facilities to create more crimes? [OPPOSITION cries of " Order."] He was order. Rightly or wrongly, the House would have to judge whether they took a serious view of this matter. He did not accuse the Chairman of anything worse than a lapse of memory in ruling that an Amendment previously moved was out of order.

THE CHAIRMAN

said the hon. Member must not discuss the Chairman's conduct of business. The particular Amendment in question was out of order.

MR. CREAN

said he was only saying that the particular Amendment was omitted by the Chairman's action, but he did not accuse him of doing it intentionally. He did not accuse the Chairman of doing anything wrong or discourteous, but they had not had the opportunity of speaking to the Amendment which was put down. He thought they were justified in asking that this Bill should not apply to Ireland.

Question put.

MR. O'HARE

rose to speak but—

THE CHAIRMAN

pointed out that the hon. Member was not entitled to address the Committee except on a point of order, and then he must be seated.

MR. O'HARE

, speaking seated and with his hat on, amidst laughter, said he hoped that hon. Members would have nothing more extraordinary to laugh at.

THE CHAIRMAN

said the hon. Member could only speak to a point of order. What he was talking about was not a point of order.

MR. O'HARE

said he begged leave to withdraw the Amendment.

THE CHAIRMAN

said the hon. Member need not cry " Aye " when the Amendment was put, and it would be negatived, but he could not withdraw it at that stage.

Amendment negatived.

Clause 4 agreed to.

MR. O'HARE

moved the following new clause, " The Act shall not apply to any musical copyright which is not registered in terms of the Copyright Act 1842, and no proceedings shall be competent in respect of any offence committed prior to such registration." He objected to plaintiffs bringing an action and then only registering the copyright. A man should, he thought, establish a claim to copyright before he took proceedings.

New Clause— This Act shall not apply to any musical copyright which is not registered in terms of The Copyright Act, 1842, and no proceedings shall be competent in respect of any offence committed prior to such registration."—(Mr. O'Hara). Brought up and read a first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the clause be read a second time."

MR. LUPTON

thought the new clause was a reasonable one. If a man did not register his copyright at Stationer's Hall until he brought an action no opportunity was given for investigation.

SIR JOHN WALTON

said the Government had considered the suggestion and had come to the conclusion that it was unwise and unnecessary because it would cast an unnecessary burden upon the owners of this species of copyright property. Copyright in this country might be held without registration, but if proceedings were proposed to be taken it became necessary that the copyright should be put upon the register. It would put the owners of this class of copyright in a serious difficulty if the clause were adopted, and especially the owners of the copyright of foreign music. Under the Berne Convention we were bound to extend to foreigners the same copyright as they extended to us. If we insisted upon their registering all their songs and music as they wrote them, it would be held we were casting a new and unjustifiable burden upon them.

Question put, and negatived.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Wednesday, and to be printed. [Bill 311.]

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