§ Order for Consideration of the Lords Amendment read.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Lords' Amendment be now considered."
§ LORD BALCARRES (Lancashire, Chorley)said that in his opinon, the Bill was of much greater importance than appeared on the face of it three or four months ago when it was first before the House. Since that time various new facts had come to light in regard to this question of wireless telegraphy, and he was anxious to submit certain points upon the subject to the Postmaster-General. Since the Bill was hurriedly passed in the first few days of the session, the facts which had come out threw a different complexion upon the attitude of the Government. In the first place the Admiralty had responded to a request and had published its agreement with the Marconi Company, and the Postmaster-General had given a statement as to the licenses in vogue under the Act of 1904. They had, moreover, had the advantage of hearing the views of Lloyds Shipping Company and other commercial concerns which were vitally interested in the subject. The character of the Bill had been changed three times, and the measure had been materially altered in the course of its discussion here 1203 and in another place. He was convinced that if it passed as it now stood very serious danger would be involved, not only to this country but to the commercial interests of the world generally. The Bill continued for a third period of three years what was virtually a monopoly to a private company, and the Marconi Company would under it receive a position of complete supremacy in this country although a great deal of progress had been made since they first started. There were now other companies in the field whose apparatus, he was told by scientists, was as efficient from the telegraphic point of view as that of the Marconi Company. The Indian Government had adopted a system which was working with extraordinary success.
§ MR. HENNIKER HEATON (Canterbury)Nothing of the kind.
§ LORD BALCARRESsaid his information upon the matter was that the system was working with success.
§ MR. HENNIKER HEATONI know it is not so.
§ LORD BALCARRESsaid that had he known that the debate on taking the time of the House would have concluded so early he would have provided himself with the official statements of the Blue-book in which it was stated in black and white that the system adopted by the Indain Government had been carried on with great success. That was one of the new facts which had arisen since the Bill was in Committee in this House, and he did not like the idea of this monopoly being carried on for another three years, especially in view of the fact that at the present moment the company was trying to bring litigation before the Courts in order to establish the validity of its patents. He suggested that three years was too long an extension of time to give to the Wireless Telegraphy Act of 1904. The Act had only been in force for two years and science had revolutionised the whole system of wireless telegraphy and in the next three years the result might be still more marked. Therefore he thought it was unwise on the part of the Government to tie their hands for too long a 1204 period. There were good reasons from another point of view why this should not be done. In three or four months time an international congress was to be held to consider the whole question. Why should they tie the hands of the British Government a few months before the congress took place? Let them wait until the congress was over and the litigation had taken place and they saw whether the Marconi or the Forrest patents were the correct patents before they tied their hands for another three years. He ventured to suggest to the Prime Minister that no harm could possibly be done by including the present Act in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill for one year; that it would give the competing companies time to fight out their quarrels in the Law Courts and enable the Government to discuss the whole matter in the conference without being tied down to a particular system. He moved that the Lords' Amendments be considered this day three months.
§
Amendment proposed—
To leave out the word 'now,' and add the words ' upon this day three months.' "—(Lord Balcarres.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
§ MR. HENNIKER HEATONsaid he was a little astonished at the line taken by his noble friend considering that the agreement was originally made and forced upon the country by a Government of which his noble friend was a member.
§ VISCOUNT TURNOUR (Sussex, Horsham)called attention to the fact that forty Members were not present.
§ The House was counted, and forty Members being present,
§ MR. HENNIKER HEATONsaid the Marconi agreement had been approved by the late Government and by this House. He himself had no interest in the Marconi Company and cared very little which side won in the litigation which might take place. But the facts were these. If the present agreement was thrown out, the Marconi Company would be placed in a better position, and he had 1205 authority for saying that they would rather welcome the defeat of the Bill. The Bill really protected the interests of the Postmaster-General and the Government, and had nothing to do with monopoly. The Marconi Company under this Bill enjoyed no monopoly whatever.
§ MR. J. D. WHITE (Dumbartonshire)said that on a previous occasion he gave his reasons for objecting to this Bill and those reasons applied with still greater force to the original Act of 1904. He pointed out that the responsibility for the Act of 1904, or the continuance of it, so far as it created a monopoly—and it did—really rested with the late Government, of which the noble Lord was a Member. Another point the noble Lord did not allude to was this. Although he mentioned the Admiralty agreement, he made no mention of the agreement between the Postmaster-General and the Marconi Telegraph Companies concluded on August 11, 1904. It seemed to him that that agreement must be read with the Act, which was contemporaneous with it. That agreement, which was made at the time when the Act was passed, gave very great powers and privileges to the Marconi Companies. If it did not give them a monopoly, it at least gave them a very strong preference over any other competitors who might undertake wireless work, and must, if developed, prove a serious barrier to the progress of wireless telegraphy. The noble Lord had said it was unwise to tie our hands for too long a time. What had the late Government done in that respect? The first and master patent of the Marconi Companies would expire in 1910, but by that agreement made with them on behalf of the late Government, the privileges given to the Companies were to extend to 1919, so that these preferences were extended to a term of nine years after the expiry of their master patent. British patents, moreover, did not extend to the Channel Islands, but the privileges granted to the company under the agreement extended to those islands. This agreement, which had been entered into by the late Government, was one of the most improvident that any Government had ever made. More than eighteen months passed after it had been entered 1206 into before it was brought before the House, and the House had to thank the present Postmaster-General for making it public. Had it not been for the right hon. Gentleman they would never have known what the agreement contained. He asked his right hon. friend to bear in mind how much the hands of the Post Office were tied in this matter. He reminded the House that the Act of 1894 had been passed on the plea of national defence, but by the operation of the agreement it had become to no small extent a source of profit of a private company instead of the country. That he considered was very regrettable. No doubt his right hon. friend would bear all these matters in mind when the international conference on wireless telegraphy took place, and he would no doubt be in a position later to afford the House ample opportunity for discussion when the question came before the House again. They might in future see some modifications of the measure designed to promote wireless telegraphy and extend its usefulness in every way for the benefit of the country.
§ THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,) Tower Hamlets, Poplarsaid the noble Lord seemed to assume that he (Mr. Buxton) was forcing on this Bill contrary to the general feeling of the House, but he must point out that the Bill was only carrying out the-policy of the late Government with regard to this matter, which was the putting of wireless telegraphy under the control of the Postmaster-General. It was necessary that the measure should be extended for three years because the subject was now under a great process of expansion, and also owing to the meeting of an international conference which he hoped would make a considerable alteration in the basis upon which these questions had been placed. But it was necessary, in order to maintain the present position,, that this Bill should be passed for a limited period. In three years the Government then in power would have to deal with the question on a larger basis. The real object of the Bill was to enable the Postmaster-General to maintain some control over the system of wireless telegraphy, and it was not intended through it to give a monopoly to 1207 any one company. He intended to do his best to encourage all the varied forms of wireless telegraphy, so that the country might have an opportunity of making experiments with reference to its use, and thus in the end to be able to adopt the best system.
§ MR. LUPTON (Lincolnshire, Sleaford)said he was glad to hear the statement of the Postmaster-General that he did not propose to give a monopoly to any company. He did not see why the Government should have any control over wireless telegraphy in times of peace. In time of war, of course, all the rules of commerce were in abeyance. It was not to be supposed that in time of war the Government would allow any telegraphic signals to go to and from the country except such as they desired. That, however, was no reason why the Government should control wireless telegraphy to-day. Another invention of great hope and promise, the telephone, had retarded to a very unfortunate extent, and was still because the Post Office had monopolised it. Any attempt on the part of science or of enterprise to come between the Post Office and its monopoly was ruthlessly "squashed."
§ LORD BALCARRESOn the assurance of the Postmaster-General that his policy is actively to encourage all forms of wireless telegraphy I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Main Question put, and agreed to.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed " That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
§ LORD BALCARRESasked whether, as there was to be an International Conference in October, and very important litigation was pending between several companies, it was not possible, instead of passing this Bill for three years, to put it into the Expiring Laws Continuance Act for twelve months? By the end of a year litigation would probably be completed, and the Conference, he presumed, would have been held. The 1208 position of the companies would have become much more clearly defined after the litigation, and the position of the Government would be made clear both in relation to the wireless telegraph companies and, what was still more important, in relation to the Governments who were represented at the International Conference.
§ MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he was afraid he could not accept the suggestion, and he thought on the noble Lord's own argument it would be a mistake if he did so. If they once got an Act into the Expiring Laws Continuance Act it was likely to continue there. The objects of the noble Lord would be better secured by passing an Act for three years, at the end of which period the question must be considered by the Government of the day. If it should be thought necessary to move in the matter before the end of three years there was nothing to prevent their doing so. If necessary the Government could introduce a Bill with regard to any question whether there was an Act on the Statute Book or not. The noble Lord was very sanguine it he thought the litigation was likely to be completed in twelve months. Litigation in respect of wireless telegraphy had continued since the commencement of its invention and was likely to last for all time. He hoped under the circumstances the noble Lord would not press his objection.
§ Question put, and agreed to.