§ MR. MACVEAGHI beg to ask the-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will state under what section of the Native Penal Code or the Special Decree of 1895 the sentence of flogging was passed in the Denshawi cases.
§ SIR EDWARD GREYBy Article 5 of the Decree of 1895 the Special Tribunal has full power to inflict whatever punishment is considered necessary 1055 without reference to the ordinary penal code. A translation of the Decree including this Article will be included in the Papers which have been promised.
§ MR. MACVEAGHDoes the Decree give power to inflict the punishment of flogging?
§ SIR EDWARD GREYThe Tribunal is given full discretion in the matter of punishment without regard to the code.
§ MR. BELLOC (Salford, S.)Have the Special Tribunal power to inflict any punishment they please; torture, for instance?
§ SIR EDWARD GREYI will lay the translation of the Decree on the table and the House will see what its wording actual is. If it is their desire to discuss the terms of the Decree, any question in regard to it can lie raised afterwards.
§ MR. MACVEAGHI beg to ask the Secretary of state for Foreign Affairs whether the request for trial by the Special Tribunal under the Decree of 1895 has to be made by Lord Cromer and the General Office Commanding the Army of Occupation jointly, and, if so, was this done in the recent case at Denshawi; whether, seeing that the officers in question had obtained no authoritative permission to shoot pigeons at Denshawi, they were committing an illegal act and liable as trespassers; and whether, as, even if permission had been granted, they were acting solely as private individuals, and not in the exercise of their regular functions, he will explain why the Decree of 1895 was applied.
§ SIR EDWARD GREYLord Cromer, on receipt of an application from the General Officer Commanding, requested the Ministry for Foreign Affairs to summon the Special Tribunal provided for by the Decree of 1895. It has not been suggested that the officers were guilty of trespass. The Special Tribunal was instituted to take the place of courts-martial; to insure that cases of this nature should be tried by competent judges acquainted with the country, customs, and language of the people; and, at the same time, to prevent any possible miscarriage of justice, by giving greater 1056 security to the accused than they would have had if tried by courts-martial.
§ MR. J. M. ROBERTSONIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that in a previous case, in which the officers or soldiers were not acting in their military capacity, it was held that the Decree did not apply?
§ SIR EDWARD GREYI am not aware that any case of that kind has arisen.
§ MR. MACVEAGHWill the right hon. Gentleman say whether these officers were acting as private individuals?
§ SIR EDWARD GREYI have said they were in uniform. The officers of an Army of Occupation in uniform cannot be considered as private individuals.
§ MR. MACVEAGHWere they committing an illegal act in uniform?
§ SIR EDWARD GREYNo, sir; they were not committing an illegal act.
§ MR. MACVEAGHI beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the President of the Special Tribunal, Boutros Pacha Ghali, had ever qualified in law and had ever sat as a judge in a criminal case before; if so, when and where; whether at the trial the questions were put by the members of the Court to the witnesses, instead of by counsel; and whether this is in accordance with the native code of; criminal procedure.
§ SIR EDWARD GREYBoutros Pacha was for many year's Under-Secretary of State at the Ministry of Justice. I am not aware whether he has previously officiated as a judge in a criminal case, but he is Acting Minister of Justice in the absence of the latter, and as such necessarily presided over the Court. At the trial, after each witness had been heard, counsel for the defence were invited by the Court to put any questions they pleased. This is in accordance with the code of criminal procedure in Egypt.
§ MR. J. M. ROBERTSON (Northumberland, Tyneside)I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when he hopes to be able to lay before the House 1057 official papers concerning the recent trials and executions at Denshawi, Egypt.
§ SIR EDWARD GREYAs soon as possible, and at any rate before the end of the session. I hope in a fortnight.
§ MR. MACVEAGHI beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether all the proceedings of the special tribunal under the Decree of 1895 are required to be taken in accordance with the Egyptian penal code; whether, in accordance with the provisions of such code, the prisoners at the preliminary investigation at Denshawi were confronted with the witnesses for the prosecution; whether the preliminary examination was conducted by an examining magistrate; whether the Parquet was represented thereat, and the evidence taken in the presence of the prisoners; whether the prisoners were represented by counsel who were afforded opportunities of examining directly the witnesses for the prosecution, or how otherwise; whether the body of Captain Bull, the injuries occasioned to his fellow officers, and these received by the woman shot and other villagers were examined by medical men other than these who gave evidence for the prosecution; if so, who carried out the examination on behalf of the prisoners; whether, seeing that the Egyptian code of criminal procedure requires that the prosecution in all criminal trials shall be represented by a member of the Parquet, he will say why this course was departed from in this instance; and whether he will explain why the native advocate, Ibrahim Bey Helbowi, was appointed to prosecute in this case, in view of the general practice and the interests of the accused.
§ SIR EDWARD GREYArticle 4 of the Decree of 1895 lays down that the Tribunal shall follow the rules of procedure as provided for by the native criminal code, in so far as they are compatible with the necessity of expediting the proceedings. I am not aware of the reasons for appointing Helbowi Bey to conduct the prosecution. I have no information as to the other points, which will doubtless appear in the account of the evidence given at the trial.