(In the Committee.)

HC Deb 09 July 1906 vol 160 cc535-645

[Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the chair.]

Clause 8:—

MR. CAVE (Surrey, Kingston)

moved to leave out the words in sub-section (a) " sufficient guarantee is given," and insert "they are satisfied that sufficient provision will be made." The hon. Member contended that the words of the section were too strong. A guarantee for five years was a very serious thing and might mean an expenditure of £500 or £1,000 during that period, which would be a severe strain; only the other Wednesday the Minister for Education said that he did not intend to require " guarantee" in the legal sense of the term, but only that the Commissioners should have a reasonable assurance that the school would be carried on.

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 19, to leave out the words 'sufficient guarantee is given, 'and insert the words 'they are satisfied that sufficient provision will be made.'"—(Mr. Cave.)

Question proposed, " That the word ' sufficient' stand part of the Clause."

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. BIRRELL,) Bristol, N.

said he thought the word " guarantee" was sufficient. What they wanted to do was simply to bring before the minds of the Commissioners that they must have some good grounds to go upon that the school was going to be carried on for five years. It was not a long period, and what Parliament had done was to give an indication of their opinion. A general assurance was not sufficient; what the Commissioners had to consider was whether the proposals put before them amounted to a reasonable guarantee. He did not consider that the words proposed by the hon. Member would make things any bettor. The word " guarantee" brought to the minds of the Commissioners the very point the Government wished. They would not put any strict legal definition upon the word, but they would take care that a positive assurance would be given that the school should be carried on; he thought the words as they stood were-good words and should be retained.

SIR E. CARSON (Dublin University)

pointed out that the sub-section enacted that a guarantee should be given. He wished to know by whom the guarantee would be given and in whose interests? He suggested that the right hon. Gentleman should select some words which. would reasonably satisfy the Commissioners and at the same time be more specific.

SIR GILBERT PARKER (Gravesend)

thought that the Minister for Education would be well advised in substituting the words " reasonable assurance," because the word " guarantee " was open to much misconstruction and misinterpretation by the Commissioners.

MR. EVELYN CECIL (Aston Manor)

did not think they should insist upon so strong a word us " guarantee."

MR. STUART WORTLEY (Sheffield, Hallam)

said that the word "guarantee" meant some promise which contained a legal obligation.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR (City of London)

said that the Minister for Education had stated over and over again that the new court would fulfil the same functions as the Charity Commissioners and the Chancery Court, and would give their decisions upon the same principles. He had never heard that it was the principle of the Court of Chancery or of the Charity Commissioners to require guarantees for the fulfilment of the trusts so long as trusts were being fulfilled. It seemed to him that the whole sub-section really violated the principles laid down by the Minister for Education in his speeches. He urged the Minister in charge of the Bill to do every thing he could to mitigate the severity of the section, and suggested that he would be well advised to accept some words less rigid than the words which stood upon the Paper. The more the Bill was mitigated the more it would conform to the intentions expressed by the Minister for Education.

MR. BIRRELL

said that the object of the words was to afford the Commissioners reasons for determining what should comprise a sufficient guarantee. In his opinion the word " guarantee" was a very good one and quite adequate. Anyone who read this clause would see that the Commissioners had imposed upon them the legal obligation of making schemes, and if a trust was in anything like default and the trustees came to the Court of Chancery nothing would be easier than to require some assurance or guarantee that they were in a position to keep their word. The duties of the Commissioners ought not to be confounded in this way, and the people who said they were able to keep a school going for five years should be in a position to satisfy the Commissioners that they were able to do so.

Amendment negatived.

SIR HENRY CRAIK (Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities)

said a principle of great importance was involved in the Amendment which he proposed. It had been said of the right hon. Gentleman that the sub-sections were only illustrative or superfluous. But sub-section (a) was something more than this. The Minister for Education said the course followed by the Commissioners would be precisely that of any Court of Justice, but was it possible that such, a Court could hold that a proposal to carry on a trust in exactly the same way as it had been carried on before, with instruction precisely the same as from the beginning, was not carrying out the spirit of the trust? Was it a proper mode of giving effect to it when the only alternative means by which it could be effected was by requiring that the school should pass under an authority which was not in existence or even contemplated when the trust was founded It seemed to him that a sub-section like that was neither illustrative nor descriptive, and that it introduced into the action of the Commissioners a consideration of an entirely new kind which was subversive altogether of trusts, and one which no Court would ever be likely to follow in deciding what was or was not a proper means of giving effect to the trust. What did this guarantee which was to be demanded amount to? The President of the Board of Education said it was not to be too exactly defined and that it was not necessary for any rich men to give the guarantee, and that poor men would do quite as well. How was a guarantee which implied the supporting of a school at great expense for five years to be given without being backed by some man of means? What means had the parents for giving such a guarantee? If a school, say, of 100 scholars was to be carried on without rate aid or grant, the expenditure could not be less than £400 a year, and to guarantee that amount for five years was exacting something that had never before been exacted from any school in the past, and no school in the future could undertake to fulfil it. The homes of the children might be moved, there might be a great change in the population, the school might become useless, and then the guarantee would not only become useless, but impossible to fulfil. It really meant that they were imposing a condition which had never before been imposed upon a public elementary school in the country, and it was a condition which most school managers would declare was impossible of fulfilment. Was it the right hon. Gentleman's intention to stamp out of existence the voluntary schools, even in cases where they were asking for no help from the Parliamentary grant and no assistance from the rates? The President of the Board of Trade had told them " clericalism was the enemy," and they knew the source from which he got that phrase. Had the Minister for Education derived his inspiration from the same source? He thought the words he suggested were a better and a sounder alternative than the guarantee proposed' and he hoped they would be accepted.

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 19, to leave out from the word ' sufficient,' to the word ' and,' in line 21, and insert the words ' evidence is furnished that such a proposal is in accordance with the wishes of the majority of the parents of children attending the school.' "—(Sir Herbert Craik.)

Question proposed, " That the words to the word 'for' in page 5, line 21 stand part of the clause."

MR. BIRRELL

reminded the Committee that Clause 1 placed certain obligations upon voluntary schools, and it was impossible to go back upon or disregard the principle laid down in that clause. The point they were now considering was that where a school could satisfy the Commissioners that it could keep its doors open for five years, it should be allowed to come under this sub-section. They were now considering the financial, not the educational position. The whole motive of this proposal was to substitute the wishes of the parents, and it was really irrele vant to sub-section (a). If the parents were in a position to promise financial support that might be sufficient, but the mere fact that the parents wished the schools to continue was not relevant to the matter with which they were now dealing. Therefore he could not accept the Amendment, which was inconsistent with the whole scope of Clause 1. A school had got to fulfil its trust as best it could, and the trustees might be bound by the decision of the Commissioners to transfer their school to the local authority as the only means of carrying out the trust. If the trustees were in a position to give a guarantee for the effective continuance of the school they would get the benefit of the clause. That was a financial consideration, and had nothing whatever to do with the wishes of the parents.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON (Oxford University)

said the Amendment was intended to meet the case of schools which otherwise did not fall under this Bill at all. That being so, they were surely entitled to look to the circumstances and conditions of the case, and to ascertain not merely whether the financial position of the trustees was adequate, but also whether there was a general desire that the school should go on under the exceptional conditions created by the Bill. He thought this clause was not merely financial, but that it related to schools outside the purview of the rest of the Bill.

LORD R. CECIL (Marylebone, E.)

said the Commissioners were to be empowered to make a scheme with respect to the best mode in which effect could be given to the trusts of the schoolhouse in future, but they were not to be allowed to do so unless certain conditions were satisfied. That was to say, the Commissioners were not to give the best effect that could be given to the trusts unless " sufficient guarantee is given to the effective continuance of the school for a period of at least five years." That was a perfectly unreasonable doctrine. He could understand the Government saving that they were not to be allowed to carry on a school as a certified efficient school, even if it was the best way of carrying out the trusts, unless the parents wished it. That was the Amendment of his hon. friend. He did not understand why any question of five years should arise. It appeared to him that the continuance of the school was a matter which might well be left entirely to the trustees. The question whether the parents desired the school was one which the Commissioners might not—he did not know that they would be entitled to—consider in determining the best way of carrying out the purposes of the trusts.

SIR E. CARSON

asked whether the Committee were to understand that if the trustees of a school desired to carry it on without any aid from the State, and if the parents of a majority of the children attending the school also desired to carry it on without any aid from the State, it would not be possible to do so after this Bill passed.

MR. BIRRELL

said the duty of the Commissioners was to see that effect

was given to the trusts, and in order to see that a school could be effectively carried on surely it was necessary to see that it would be effectively carried on for some time. If the trustees could snap their fingers and say, " We can get on without you, as our forefathers did," that was giving effect to the trust, and he did not think they should find fault. But it should be remembered that the local education authority had to consider the educational needs of the whole area, and that it had to satisfy itself that there was proper school accommodation for the whole of the children in the area. It was entitled to know what schools it could look to for performing this function. He did not think there was anything unreasonable in asking a sufficient guarantee for the effective continuance of the school for a period of five years.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 236; Noes, 120. (Division List No! 193.)

AYES.
Acland, Francis Dyke	Burnyeat, J. D. W.	Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Agnew, George William	Buxton, Rt. Hn. SydneyCharles	Fuller, John Michael F.
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Byles, William Pollard	Fullerton, Hugh
Alden, Percy	Cameron, Robert	Gibb, James (Harrow)
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Gill, A. H.
Asquith, Rt. Hon. HerbertHenry	Carr-Gomm, H. W.	Gladstone, Rt. Hn. HerbertJohn
Astbury, John Meir	Cheetham, John Frederick	Glendinning, R. G.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.	Gooch, George Peabody
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.	Churchill, Winston Spencer	Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Clarke, C. Goddard	Griffith, Ellis J.
Baring, Godfrey(Isle of Wight)	Clough, W.	Grove, Archibald
Parker, John	Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew, W.)	Gulland, John W.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Collins, SirWm. J.(S. Pancras, W.)	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Barnard, E. B.	Cooper, G. J.	Hall, Frederick
Beale, W. P.	Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.	Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis
Beauchamp, E.	Cory, Clifford John	Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)
Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)	Cotton, Sir H. J. S.	Hart-Davies, T.
Beck, A. Cecil	Cowan, W. H.	Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
Bellairs. Carlyon	Craig, Herbert J.(Tynemouth)	Haslam, James (Derbyshire)
Benn, W.(T'w'Harmlets, S. Geo.	Cremer, William Randal	Hazel, Dr. A. E.
Bennett, E. N.	Crombie, John William	Hedges, A. Paget
Bertram, Julius	Crosfield, A. H.	Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)	Dalziel, James Henry	Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)	Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan	Henry, Charles S.
Billson, Alfred	Davies, Timothy (Fulham)	Herbert, Col. Ivor (Hon., S.)
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Dickinson, W.H. (St. Pancras N.	Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)
Black, ArthurW.(Bedfordshire)	Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Higham, John Sharp
Brace, William	Dunne, MajorE. Martin(Walsall	Hobart, Sir Robert
Bramsdon, T. A.	Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)	Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Branch, James	Edwards, Frank (Radnor)	Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)
Brocklehurst, W. D.	Elibank, Master of	Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.
Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh)	Ellis, Rt. Hon John Edward	Horniman, Emslie John
Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen	Evans, Samuel T.	Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs	Everett, R. Lacey	Hudson, Walter
Burns, Rt. Hon. John	Ferens, T. R.	Illingworth, Percy H.
Jacoby, James Alfred	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)
Jardine, Sir J.	Paul, Herbert	Strachey, Sir Edward
Jenkins, J.	Paulton, James Mellor	Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Jones, Sir D. Brynmor(Swansea	Pearce, William (Limehouse)	Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Perks, Robert William	Summerbell, T.
Jones, William(Carnarvonshire)	Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Jowett, F. W.	Pickersgill, Edward Hare	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Kearley, Hudson E.	Price, C.E.(Edinburgh, Central)	Tennant, SirEdward(Salisbury
Kekewich. Sir George	Price, RobertJohn(Norfolk, E.)	Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
King, Alfred John (Knutsford)	Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.)	Thomasson, Franklin
Laidlaw, Robert	Radford, G. H.	Thorne, William
Lambert, George	Rainy, A. Holland	Tomkinson, James
Lamont, Norman	Raphael, Herbert H.	Torrance, Sir A. M.
Layland-Barratt, Francis	Rees, J. D.	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.)	Rendall, Athelstan	Ure, Alexander
Lehmann, R. C.	Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n)	Verney, F. W.
Levy, Maurice	Rickett, J. Compton	Vivian, Henry
Lewis, John Herbert	Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee	Walker, H. De R.(Leicester)
Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David	Robertson. SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd	Wallace, Robert
Lough, Thomas	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)	Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Lupton, Arnold	Robinson, S.	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Lyell, Charles Henry	Robson, Sir William Snowdon	Ward, John(Stoke-upon-Trent)
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Roe, Sir Thomas	Wardle, George J.
Macdonald, J. M.(FalkirkB'ghs	Rogers, F. E. Newman	Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
M'Callum, John M.	Rowlands, J.	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
M'Kenna, Reginald	Runciman, Walter	Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)	Russell, T. W.	Waterlow, D. S.
M'Micking, Major G.	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)	Whit bread, Howard
Maddison, Frederick	Scarisbrick, T. T. L.	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)	Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)	White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Marnham, F. J.	Schwann, Sir C. E.(Manchester)	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Massie, J.	Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne	Wiles, Thomas
Masterman, C. F. G.	Sears, J. E.	Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Menzies, Walter	Seaverns, J. H.	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Molteno, Percy Alport	Seely, Major J. B.	Wills, Arthur Walters
Montagu, E. S.	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)	Wilson, Hon. C.H.W.(Hull, W.)
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Shipman, Dr. John G.	Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Morrell, Philip	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Morse, L. L.	Sloan, Thomas Henry	Woodhouse, SirJT(Hudd'rsfi'l d
Murray, James	Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie	Yoxall, James Henry
Myer, Horatio	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Nicholls, George	Soares, Ernest J.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Nicholson, Chas. N.(Doncaster	Spicer, Sir Albert
Norman, Henry	Stanger, H. Y.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E).	Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-	Flynn, James Christopher
Acland-Hood, RtHn. SirAlex. F.	Claney, John Joseph	Forster, Henry William
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)	Ginnell, L.
Anstruther-Gray, Major	Condon, Thomas Joseph	Gordon, SirW. Evans.(T'rHam)
Arnold-Forster, RtHn. HughO.	Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)	Halpin, J.
Ashley, W. W.	Courthope, G. Loyd	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd
Balcarres, Lord	Craig, CharlesCurtis(AntrimS.	Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.
Balfour, RtHn. A. J.(City Lond.)	Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)	Hay, Hon. Claude George
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)	Crean, Eugene	Hayden, John Patrick
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Cullinan, . .	Hazleton, Richard
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)	Delany, William	Heaton, John Henniker
Beach, Hn. MichaelHugh Hicks	Devlin, CharlesRamsay(Galway	Helmsley, Viscount
Bignold, Sir Arthur	Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon	Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)
Blake, Edward	Dolan, Charles Joseph	Hogan, Michael
Boland. John	Donelan, Captain A.	Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Bridgeman, W. Clive	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.
Bull, Sir William James	Du Cros, Harvey	Kilbride, Denis
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Duffy, William J.	Lane-Fox, G. R.
Burke, E. Haviland-	Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan	Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Butcher, Samuel Henry	Faber, George Denison (York)	Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham
Carlile, E. Hildred	Fell, Arthur	Liddell, Henry
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.
Cave, George	Flavin, Michael Joseph	Lundon, W.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Fletcher, J. S.	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift	O'Shee, James John	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.	Parker, SirGillbert(Gravesend)	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G(Oxf'd Univ.
Magnus, Sir Philip	Pease, HerbertPike (Darlington	Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark
Marks, H. H. (Kent)	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Turnour, Viscount
Mason, James F. (Windsor)	Power, Patrick Joseph	Valentin, Viscount
Meagher, Michael	Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne	White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton	Rawlinson, John Frederick P.	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Mooney, J. J.	Redmond, John E.(Waterford)	Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
Nolan, Joseph	Redmond, William (Clare)	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)	Remnant, James Farquharson	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.'	Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall	Young, Samuel
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert	Younger, George
O'Hare, Patrick	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.	Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Henry Craik and Lord Robert Cecil.
O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)	Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)
O'Malley, William	Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton
O'Mara, James	Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
O'Shaughnessy, P. J.	Sullivan, Donal

MR. MIDDLEMORE (Birmingham, N.)

said that the intention of this Bill seemed to be to destroy the Church schools, although not the Jewish, Roman Catholic, and very few of the Wesleyan schools. Clause 8 was aimed specially at Church schools, and it was because of the animus of hon. Gentlemen opposite they were to be destroyed. A five years guarantee was impossible. The amount of money to be given was too much. He had been told by an hon. Gentleman who sat below him and who was an expert, that it would mean £400,000 a year. Elderly men, who might be asked to give a guarantee, would die in the meantime, and the whole guarantee would be unsatisfied, and young men who had given a guarantee might emigrate. Five years was too large a part of a man's life for him to feel confidence in giving a guarantee to maintain the present management of a Church school for that period. Therefore he moved to substitute "one" for "five."

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 21, to leave out the words 'five years ' and insert the words ' one year.' " —(Mr. Middlemore.)

Question proposed, " That the words 'five years' stand part of the clause."

MR. BIRRELL

said he was unable to agree with his hon. friend that a period of five years was too long as showing the amount of support which might be given by the neighbourhood to a particular school, nor could he believe that it was an impossible guarantee. It had not been suggested that the guarantee should be in the form of a sum named or anything of that kind. It was simply left to the Commission to satisfy themselves that there was a sufficient guarantee that the parents in the neighbourhood would continue to support the school in an efficient state. The guarantee of five years, he thought, did not go really beyond the necessities of the case. In fact, the Government had considered this point very carefully and some people thought that five years was too short a period. They must remember that the local authority had to consider the responsibility which was placed upon them and that they must know whether the school was likely to be continued to be supported.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said that this was only another instance of the way in which the Bill would affect injuriously the rural districts. In these districts it might be quite impossible to get more than one or two gentlemen to support a school continuously or for more than one year. He thought the right hon. Gentleman forgot that it was not a mere general assurance or general statement to the Commission which was required, but that a guarantee was to be given.

MR. BIRRELL

A sufficient guarantee.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

A sufficient guarantee for the effective continuance of the school for five years. Everybody knew that a guarantee was a technical term. He knew that it was sometimes used in a colloquial sense; but if the Commission acted with the powers of the Court of Chancery they would not use legal phraseology in that sense. The only persons who could give a guarantee would be very few, and he thought these persons would rather shrink from the term " guarantee." Nothing could happen under this clause unless demanded by the local education authority. Under these circumstances it would be exceedingly hard to insist upon this continuous assurance for five years, when they might get persons or bodies to give the guarantee from year to year. He admitted that the term of five years might not be excessive in urban districts where there were persons of wealth in considerable numbers who contributed to denominational schools, but he ventured to think that it was likely to impose very great hardship on the rural districts where there might be only one school to which the neighbourhood was attached and which might be continued if a large landowner in the neighbourhood were permitted to give an assurance for a year at a time, when he would not be likely to give it under the severe terminology of the clause.

MR. LAURENCE HARDY (Kent, Ashford)

said he would like the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider this question. If he could not agree to one year he might agree to three years, which he himself had ventured to suggest in an Amendment standing in his name. For himself he thought that if the Commission found that the school had been carried on efficiently, a guarantee for one year was quite as good as a guarantee for five years if there was evidence that there were really people of ability behind it. There were difficulties about a formal guarantee, and the piling up of conditions made it a formidable undertaking. In many rural districts where the owner of a property had only a title for life, he might be perfectly willing to give a guarantee for one year, but would hesitate to give a guarantee for five years. After all, these schools would have to be brought before the Commission by the local education authority, and he thought it would be rather unreasonable that the whole strength of the local education authority should be brought into force to make an additional barrier in the way of carrying on these schools. He pleaded with the right hon. Gentleman to accept the modified term of three years.

SIR E. CARSON

could not see why the Minister for Education should say that five years was of great importance Supposing the guarantee failed after one year, what would happen? Would anybody be sued? He could not see what the value of the five years guarantee would be, because, as he understood the Bill, if a school was not continued as efficient, the work of that school would not be a sufficient compliance with the Education Act, so that it would be no longer of any use as a public elementary school. It should be sufficient to have a guarantee renewed from year to year.

MR. SAMUEL ROBERTS (Sheffield. Ecclesall)

said he thought it would be a very serious thing for any person to give a guarantee for such a long period as five years. The liability to take on this responsibility for a period of five years might place the trustees in a very unfortunate position.

MR. BIRRELL

quite agreed that the sub-section did not give them very much, but they were trying to get what they could. Supposing a guarantee was given and it appeared that the school could be made an efficient school, and it paid to make it one then the local education authority was under a responsibility to take it over. Let the Committee consider the difficulty of the local education authority, if the guarantee was not forthcoming. They would be unable to ascertain their liabilities. This sub-section was not a protection of the local education authority at all because the local education authority might, if the guarantee after two or three years failed, find that the school was of no use, the children could no longer go to it, and they would be burdened with the responsibility of providing a site and buildings for themselves. It seemed to him important that the Commission should be able to protect the local authority against such a contingency. That was the reason why the Government had named a date, which would make the persons who wished to maintain their school as an efficient school see the responsibility they would assume, and make them come forward with such an amount of support as would satisfy the Commissioners that they would be able to keep their school going for five years. He thought the argument was in favour of retaining the words of the sub-section.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

thought the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman threw a strong light upon the whole object and intention of the sub-section, which seemed to be to impose a fine upon particular trustees so that they should be forced to give up their trusts, in favour of the local authority, in order that the school might be carried on. Such a course would be a very gross injustice, and would be very hard upon voluntary schools. In the parallel case of a hospital supported by voluntary contributions; who could guarantee that those subscriptions would be continued for five years? The provision would impose a severe disability upon trustees which should not be imposed upon them except for an adequate cause. What was the adequate cause put forward in this case? Education would, he thought, suffer unless the proposal of his friend were accepted. Suppose the right hon. Gentleman, instead of insisting upon five years,

assented to a proposal of one year, and at the end of two years it was found impossible for the philanthropists or parents in the neighbourhood to provide the accommodation, and they could not carry on the school. The Commission would then say that they must allow the local education authority to take over the school. Why not wait till that contingency happened? The right hon. Gentleman was really, by his own admission, trying to warp and pervert the practice of the Court of Chancery, which appeared so prominently in his speeches, by requiring the Court to impose an obligation which was absolutely of a destructive character. It was a fine so heavy that it could not be paid. It was a condition so onerous that it could not be complied with, and it was imposed because it could not be complied with and in order to drive the trustees into the arms of the local authorities. It was not justified in the interests of the children; it was not justified in the legitimate interests of the local authorities or the ratepayers; and it was profoundly injurious to the trustees.

MR. BRIDGEMAN (Shropshire, Oswestry)

wished to know why it was that in this particular kind of school a guarantee was to be exacted which was not exacted in regard to any of the existing certified schools.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 252;. Noes, 131. (Division List No. 194.)

AYES.
Agnew, George William	Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)	Cheetham, John Frederick
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Billson, Alfred	Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.
Alden Percy	Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Churchill, Winston Spencer
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Black, ArthurW.(Bedfordshire	Clarke, C. Goddard
Astbury, John Meir	Brace, William	Cleland, J. W.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Bramsdon, T. A.	Clough, W.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Branch, James	Coats, SirT. Glen(Renfrew, W.)
Baring, Godfrey(Isle of Wight)	Brocklehurst, W. D.	Cooper, G. J.
Barker, John	Brooke, Stopford	Corbett, CH(Sussex, E. Grinst'd
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh)	Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.
Barnard, E. B.	Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen)	Cory, Clifford John
Beale, W. I'.	Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)	Cotton, Sir H. J. S.
Beauchamp, K.	Burns, Rt. Hon. John	Cowan, W. H.
Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)	Burnyeat, J. D. W.	Craig, Herbert J.(Tynemouth)
Beck, A. Cecil	Buxton, Rt. Hn. SydneyCharles	Cremer, William Randal
Bellairs, Carlyon	Byles, William Pollard	Crombie, John William
Benn, W.(Tow'rHamlets, S. Geo.	Cameron, Robert	Crosfleld, A. H.
Bennett, E. N.	Causton. Rt. Hn. RickardKnight	Dalziel, James Henry
Bertram, Julius	Chance, Frederick William	Davies, David(MontgomeryCo.)
Davies, M. Vaughan - (Cardigan	Laidlaw, Robert	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland
Davies, Timothy (Fulham)	Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)	Scarisbrick, T. T. L.
Dewar, John A. (Inveniess-sh.)	Lambert, George	Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Dickinson, W. H(St. Pancras, N	Lamont, Norman	Schwann. Sir C.E. (Manchester)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Scott, A.H.(Ashton and. Lyne)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Lea, HughCecil(St. Pancras, E.)	Sears, J. E.
Dobson, Thomas W.	Levy, Maurice	Seaverns, J. H.
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)	Lewis, John Herbert	Seely, Major J. B.
Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)	Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David	Shackleton, David James
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)	Lough, Thomas	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)	Lupton, Arnold	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Edwards, Frank (Radner)	Lyell, Charles Henry	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Elibank, Master of	Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Sloan, Thomas Henry
Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward	Macdonald, J. M.(FalkirkB'ghs	Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Erskine, David C.	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Essex, R. W.	M'Callum, John M.	Soares, Krnest J.
Everett, R. Lacey	M'Kenna, Reginald	Spicer, Sir Albert
Faber, G. H. (Boston)	M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)	Stanger, H. Y.
Ferens, T. R.	M'Micking, Major G.	Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro	Maddison, Frederick	Strachey, Sir Edward
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)	Strauss, B.S. (Mile End)
Fuller, John Michael F.	Marnham, F. J.	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Fullerton, Hugh	Massie, J.	Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Gibb, James (Harrow)	Menzies, Walter	Summerbell, T.
Gill, A. H.	Moltono, Perce Alport	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Gladstone. Rt. HnHerbertJohn	Montagu, E. S.	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Glendinning, R. G.	Morrell, Philip	Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury
Gooch, George Peabody	Morse, L. L.	Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	Murray, James	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Griffith, Ellis J.	Myer, Horatio	Thomasson, Franklin
Grove, Archibald	Napier, T. B.	Thorne, William
Gulland, John W.	Nicholls, George	Tomkinson, James
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r	Torrance, Sir A. M.
Hall, Frederick	Norman, Henry	Trevelyan, Charles Phillips
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Ure, Alexander
Hardy, George, A. (Suffolk)	Nuttall, Harry	Verney, F. W.
Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Worc'r)	O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)	Vivian, Henry
Harmsworth, R.L(Caithn'ss sh	Paul, Herbert	Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Hart-Davies, T.	Paulton, James Mellor	Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)	Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Haslam, James (Derbyshire)	Pearce, William (Limehouse)	Ward, John(Stokeupon Trent)
Hazel, Dr. A. E.	Perks, Robert William	Wardle, George J.
Hedges, A. Paget	Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke	Warner, ThomasCouitenayT.
Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Pickersgill, Edward Hare	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Henderson. J.M.(Aberdeen, W.	Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)	Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney
Henry, Charles S.	Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.)	Waterlow, D. S.
Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon., S.	Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.)	Whithread, Howard
Herbert, T. Arnold(Wycombe)	Radford, G. H.	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Higham, John Sharp	Rainy, A. Holland	White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Hobart, Sir Robert	Raphael, Herbert H.	Whitehead, Rowland
Hobhouse, Charles E. H.	Rees, J. D.	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Hodge, John	Rendall, Athelstan	Wiles, Thomas
Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)	Renton, Major Leslie	Williams, J. (Glamorgan
Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N	Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth
Horniman, Emslie John	Rickett, J. Compton	Williamson, A.
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey	Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)	Wills, Arthur Walters
Hudson, Walter	Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)	Wilson, Hon. C.H.W. (Hull, W.
Hyde, Clarendon	Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd	Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Illingworth, Percy H.	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Jacoby, James Alfred	Robinson, S.	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Jardine, Sir J.	Robson, Sir William Snowdon	Woodhouse, SirJ. T.(Huddersf'd
Jenkins, J.	Roe, Sir Thomas	Yoxall, James Henry
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Rogers, F. E. Newman	TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease
Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Rowlands, J.
Jones, William(Carnarvonshire	Runciman, Walter
Russell, T. W.	Kearley, Hudson E.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)	Arkwright, John Stanhope	Balcarres, Lord
Ambrose, Robert	Arnold-Forster, RtHn. HughO.	Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(CityLond.
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Ashley, W. W.	Balfour, Capt. C. B.(Hornsey)
Anstruther-Grey, Major	Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.	Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)	Forster, Henry William	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.	Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)	O'Hare, Patrick
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks	Ginnell, L.	O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)
Bignold, Sir Arthur	Gordon, SirW. Evans-(T'rHam.	O'Maliey, William
Blake, Edward	Haddock, George R.	O'Mara, James
Boland, John	Halpin, J.	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Bridgeman, W. Clive	Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd)	O'Shee, James John
Bull, Sir William James	Hay, Hon. Claude George	Parker, SirGilbert(Gravesead)
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Hayden, John Patrick	Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington)
Burke, E. Haviland.	Hazleton, Richard	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Butcher, Samuel Henry	Heaton, John Henniker	Power, Patrick Joseph
Carlile, E. Hildred	Helmsley, Viscount	Rasch, Sir Frederick Came
Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward H.	Hervey, F. W. F. (B my S. Edm'ds	Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Cave, George	Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)	Redmond, William (Clare)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Hogan, Michael	Remnant, James Farquharson
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-	Hunt, Rowland	Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.	Kennedy, Vineant Paul	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Clancy, John Joseph	Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)	Kilbride, Denis	Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Lane-Fox, G. R.	Smith, Abel H.(Hertford East)
Court hope, G. Lloyd	Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)	Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)
Craig, Charles Curtis(AntrimS.	Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)	Starkey, John R.
Craig, CaptainJames(Down, E.)	Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham	Sullivan, Donal
Craik, Sir Henry	Liddell, Henry	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Crean, Eugene	Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.	Talbot, Rt. HnJ. G.(OxfdUniv
Cullinan, .J.	Long, Col. CharlesW.(Evesham	Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)
Delany, William	Lundon, W.	Thornton, Percy M.
Devlin, CharlesRamsayfGalway	MacNeill, John Gordon Swift	Turnout', Viscount
Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon	MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down, S.)	Warde, Col. C E. (Kent, Mid.)
Dolan, Charles Joseph	M'Kean, John	White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Donelan, Captain A.	Magnus, Sir Philip	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Marks, H. H. (Kent)	Wilson. A. Stanley (York. E.R.)
Du Cros, Harvey	Mason, James F. (Windsor)	Wolff. Gustav Wilhelm
Duffy, William J.	Meagher, Michael	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan	Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Faber, George Denison (York.)	Mooney, J. J.	Young, Samuel
Fell, Arthur	Murphy, John	Younger, George
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	Nolan, Joseph
Flavin, Michael Joseph	O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.
Fletcher, J. S.	O'Brien, Patrice (Kilkenny)
Flynn, James Christopher	O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)

Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.

MR. MIDDLEMORE

moved to leave out from " is" to " they," and insert " advisable," in order to protest against the wording of this sub-section, which seemed to him about the most satirical and cynical bit of printing he had ever read. The Government said they proposed to give effect to the trusts, and they proposed to give effect to them by abolishing them; they proposed to give effect to their affections by murdering the object of them. Why could not the Government say what they meant in plain words and save the Committee this al most Satanic cynicism. They were not going to give effect to the trusts in any legitimate way; they were going to abolish them, and the best way they could do that was to say so in plain and palpable language. The Government had adopted Dr. Clifford's policy; why did not they adopt his manly and straightforward attitude. Dr. Clifford—

THE CHAIRMAN

hoped the hon. Member would make plain the relevancy of his remarks to the Amendment.

MR. MIDDLEMORE

said he wished to protest against the cynical language of the clause. It had given him and others considerable pain. He did, however, now make his brief protest and would not make any further demand on the patience of the Committee.

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 24, to leave out from the word ' is' to the word ' they,' in line 25, and to insert the word ' advisable.' " — (Mr. Middlemore.)

LORD BALCARRES (Lancashire, Chorley)

moved to leave out the word " best," and insert the word " only " in line 25. They were told that the object of this clause was only to deal with charitable trusts. That being so, the word " only " was, in his opinion, better than " best." The words would then read " only mode of giving effect to the trusts." He supposed the right hon. Gentleman would object to this Amendment; and if he did he (Lord Balcarres) hoped he would explain to what the word " best" was meant to apply, and thus aid the Committee to come to a decision.

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 25, to leave out the word ' best.' and to insert the word 'only.'" — (Lord Balcarres.)

Question proposed, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

MR. BIRRELL

said the word best was employed to bring in the doctrine ofcypress. The Commissioners had to consider this problem. A school was governed by a particular trust to provide for the education of the children of a particular parish for ever. Then came difficulties as to finance. The trustees could not give the assurance required; they had no money; they had in the past carried on their trust with public money. Then came this legislation which put upon the Commissioners the task of determining whether or not the best way of carrying out the trust would not be to transfer the school to the public authority. That night not be the only way, but the best way. The word " best" simply enabled the Commissioners to apply the principle ofcypres if the best way of giving effect to the trusts was to transfer them.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said they started with the assumption that this was a mixed trust and that there were other things besides giving elementary education which the trustees had to do. Then came a conflict with the local authority which might have arisen in various ways as to the terms of taking over, and the local authority took the school before the Commission. Were the Commissioners to have no guidance whatever in considering these matters? Under the Act of 1902 when the Board of Education had to determine whether a school of this or that character was to be allowed they were told they had to consider the interests of the rate-payers, the area the school was to provide for, and the wishes of the parents. Did the word best include all or any of these things. What was the line they would have to take if they had to make a scheme for the school? It seemed to him that these different issues ought to be taken in the instructions to the Commissioners.

SIR E. CARSON

said he did not think on examination the Amendment of the noble Lord was a suitable Amendment at the moment, and he would ask his noble friend not to press it to a division. They had the assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that in the case of a mixed trust the Commissioners would not make a scheme at all.

MR. BIRRELL

The alternative trusts we do not touch.

SIR E. CARSON

said it was quite apparent, therefore, that the matter which the noble Lord tried to guard against really did not enter into consideration here at all. There might be the case of a mixed trust where the trustees of the school did not wish to raise the objection that it was a mixed trust, and in that case if it were best to carry the school on as a public elementary school the trustees might even be consenting parties to it; otherwise the trust might be left in a derelict form and of no use at all to the public. That would be somewhat of a misfortune to the public and the object of the trust. For that reason he did not think the noble Lord ought to press the Amendment. At the same time he failed to understand the reason the right hon. Gentleman had given for opposing the Amendment. It was the first time he had ever heard that the Court of Chancery could not carry out the doctrine ofcypres. He should have thought it was the very element of the case.

MR. BIRRELL

So it is.

SIR E. CARSON

Then why put this in again if they have the power already to carry out thecypressdoctrine?

MR. BIRRELL

said it was in order to enable them to give rent.

SIR E. CARSON

quite agreed that that was the object of the clause, but that was not the object of the word " best." If the word was not there at all, the object stated by the right hon. Gentleman would be secured. He could not help thinking the right hon. Gentleman was not candid in the matter.

MR. BIRRELL

I may be stupid, but I am quite candid.

SIR E. CARSON

I do not think anyone would accuse the right hon. Gentleman of being stupid.

MR. BIRRELL

I would much sooner be thought stupid than not candid.

SIR E. CARSON

said it was quite obvious that the Court of Chancery had the power of carrying out thecypressdoctrine, and what he really feared was that there was some hidden meaning behind this word " best." It seemed on the right hon. Gentleman's own argument to be absolutely unnecessary.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

moved to leave out the words after " scheme" in line 26 and to insert words requiring the local education authority to comply with such conditions as to payment or otherwise not being inconsistent with the Act. He said he only desired the President of the Board of Education to carry out the undertaking he gave when he introduced the Bill. Under the clause as it stood the trustees of a school might endeavour to make an arrangement with the local authority under Clause 2, but negotiations having failed in attaining this object, the local authority might bring the trustees before the Commission—which he supposed would be ambulatory—and the Commission, having inspected the schools and taken evidence, might come to the conclusion that on the whole the arrangement proposed by the trustees was a suitable and equitable one in accordance with thecypressdoctrine. A scheme would accordingly be made, and up to that moment there was no reason to suppose it would not be carried into effect. But then the local authority might refuse to agree and the school might be left derelict. What the local education authority agreed to do came first in the clause, and what the Commission thought to be just came second, and that seamed to him to put the Commission in a somewhat inferior position to the High Court, because when the High Court made a scheme he did not suppose it was open to either party to snap their fingers at the Court simply because they did not approve of the entire scheme. He therefore asked the right hon. Gentleman to make the clause what he said the clause would be when he introduced the Bill, giving them clearly to understand that the local authority would be required to adopt the scheme which the Commission thought just, and which embodied what they considered to be the best mode of carrying out the trust.

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 26, after the word ' scheme,' to insert the words ' require the local education authority to comply with such conditions as to payment or otherwise not being inconsistent with this Act.'"—(Sir William Anson.)

Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."

MR. BIRRELL

said he quite agreed that there was a point of substance in the Amendment. The condition of affairs was quite obvious under this clause. The local education authority had to take the trustees before the Commissioners either because of the terms, or in the event of the trustees being unwilling to be taken over, to ascertain whether or not the school was bound to be taken over owing to the nature of the trust. Therefore the matter rested entirely in the option of the local authority who, casting their eye abroad and fixing upon a school as being a desirable one for their educational system, accordingly endeavoured to come to terms. They might fail to do so, either because the trustees did not agree to the terms or because they objected to be taken over at all. On either one of these reasons, or because of both, they went before the Commissioners; he dared say the Commissioners would often visit the places, but it was not for him to say. He thought it would be unreasonable and unfair if, after the Commissioners had thrashed the whole matter out, and decided that the school was bound to be transferred, even against the will of the trustees or owners, and had fixed the terms, the local authority were to say, " We do not like these terms, and we will disregard them." He did not think that would be a satisfactory arrangement, and, without wishing to be reminded of anything he said before, he was quite desirous that this should be set right now. There were one or two words he would like an opportunity of adding on Report. Everyone desired that there should be as little litigation as possible, and that people should not come before the Commission and then discover what they might have known before, namely, that the trust was, for example, one of the alternative kind, over which the Commissioners had no real power. Therefore words ought to be inserted making it obligatory on the owners or trustees to give the local authority the opportunity of seeing the exact words of the trust, so that the owner might not be taken before the Commissioners ons peculation. He did not think this was a sort of tribunal that ought to be attended at great expense by great luminaries of the law. He hoped it would not become the scene of forensic eloquence and forensic costs. The matters with which it would have to deal were matters which could fairly be intrusted to the ordinary legal officers of the parties concerned and to the men of business connected with the local authorities. Consequently the authorities should be fully forewarned ' and forearmed. The proper course to adopt would be to omit the words " as may be agreed to by the local education authority and " in line 28 and the first word in line 29. The Clause would then read— "or other matters as the Commission think just." He thought that would fulfil his obligations and would also meet the justice and equity of the case. There was only one point which had occurred to him and that was the terms, and in regard to that matter he thought the local authority might very properly have a voice. Suppose the local authority wanted to take over the school for ten years and the Commission suggested fifteen or twenty years—that was a matter in which the local authority should not be bound by the view of the-Commission. On the question of rent, of course, the judgment of the Commission should be final, but the question of the term was one upon which the local authority ought not to be absolutely bound by the finding of the Commission. He intended to introduce words which would make it obligatory on both sides to disclose their case to each other and make known their points. Subject to that understanding he would move his Amendment.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said that in view of the statement of the right hon. Gentleman he would withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— In page 5, to leave out line 28, and the first word in line 29.''—(Mr. Birrel.)

Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

SIR E. CARSON

expressed his satisfaction with the way in which the Minister for Education had carried out his promise. He entirely agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that there ought to be an elimination of all those matters which might render the proceedings before the Commissioners nugatory. The local education authority ought to put their points before the managers and the managers should produce their trust deeds. He did not think there should be any very expensive legal judgments, because the trusts were not in such a flourishing condition as to be able to spend large sums upon legal proceedings. He thought they ought to do everything they could to save as much of the trust funds as possible for the purposes of the trust.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

also xpressed his satisfaction with the concession which had been made by the right hon. Gentleman.

MR. PERKS (Lincolnshire, Louth)

was afraid the concession of the right hon. Gentleman was a rather serious curtailment of the power of the local authority. It seemed to be open to the objection that the voluntary school owners and managers might be taken by the local authority before the new tribunal, and after costs had been incurred terms for the use of the voluntary schools might be held to be equitable by the judicial Commission, which the local authority might find extremely onerous. It was manifest that the costs incurred by the local authority in bringing the voluntary school managers before the tribunal would be an unjust imposition even if proceedings were limited in the way which the Minister for Education fondly hoped would be the case. He doubted whether the hope of the right, hon. Gentleman that the legal fraternity would be excluded from these inquiries would be realised. He was afraid that the most acute legal minds would have to be brought to bear to interpret some of the clauses. What was the position of the local education authority in the presence of this Amendment? They were bound to accept the judgment of the judicial Commission for the taking over of these voluntary schools, and they might have to take them over on conditions which might prove onerous to the locality. They might even prefer to put up their own new school fitted with all modern requirements. Under these circumstances it would be infinitely better to make the local authority repay to the managers of those schools the costs of any such abortive inquiry. The local authority would be able to inspect the school deeds before they embarked upon the legal inquiry, and therefore under such circumstances it was quite reasonable that they should pay the cost of the inquiry. He did not think it was wise, in the interests of education, that the local authorities, come what might, should be forced to take over the schools even on the conditions which the Commissioners might determine. He earnestly hoped that the Government would in some way, provide that the power now possessed by the local authority in the Bill as drawn should not be taken away from them.

MR. R. PEARCE (Staffordshire, Leek)

thought the Opposition would regret that this Amendment was ever put forward. The effect of it would be that in many places the local authorities would not bring the trustees before the Commission. By this clause the scheme of the Commissioners would have the effect of an Act of Parliament, without possibility of any review or appeal, and the local authority would be bound by whatever happened to be done by the scheme. The consequence would be that the local authority would much rather build a school of their own over which they would have complete control than take over a. voluntary school. He regretted that the clause as it originally stood had been marred in any particular.

MR. LEIF JONES (Westmoreland, Appleby)

said that in regard to material things it was quite reasonable that the local education authority, having taken unwilling trustees before the judicial Commissioners, should abide by their decision. Under the section as it, stood when the trustees had been before the Commissioners and a scheme had been drawn up, the local authority could say, " Yes, that scheme seems reasonable and we will accept it." But by the concession which had now been made that power was taken out of the hands of the local authority. When they talked of " payment or other matters " it seemed to him rather important that they should know precisely what those other matters were, and how far the powers of the Commissioners were to go in regard to them. Before this concession was made this was immaterial from the public point of view, because the authority could refuse to take the school over, but now they would have to accept the scheme and therefore they ought to know exactly what responsibility was involved in taking the trustees of a school before the Commissioners. There was a danger that unless the local education authorities were quite clear as to the responsibility they were incurring they would be very unwilling to take trustees before the Commission at all for the purpose of getting schemes drawn up. He appealed to the Minister for Education to consider whether the words " other matters" should not be more carefully defined in order that local authorities might know where they stood.

MR. BIRRELL

said the scheme contemplated under Clause 8 was a substitute for the voluntary agreement under Clause 2. The "other matters" contemplated were the rent, the term of years, it might be the time of day when the schoolhouse would be required, and things of that kind. His hon. friend was a little anxious about the " facilities." He himself did not see that the facilities had anything whatever to do with the matter. The facilities referred to were those given by the Act, and the Commissioners would have no power to extend them for denominational teaching beyond what was contemplated and proposed by the Act itself. He thought there was no occasion for the local authority to be nervous as to the terrible things that this Commission might impose upon them, because nothing would be imposed on them that was not within the direct legal authorisation of the Act. He deprecated anything being put in the Bill which would interfere with the local authorities desiring to take schools over which they thought fitted in with their educational schemes. The religious facilities contemplated by the Act were the only facilities which the Commissioners would impose on them.

MR. CAVE

moved to leave out " or repair" and insert " enlargement or improvement" in line 31. He said the sub-section provided that in fixing the payment for the use of the school the Commissioners were to have regard to the grants or assistance, if any, received from public funds towards the building of repair of the schoolhouse. He did not himself consider that any deduction ' should be made for building grants, but in any case he thought the provision should be confined to capital expenditure, and should not extend to expenditure on ordinary repairs. Under the Act of 1902 the local authorities had been paying for the ordinary wear and tear of the non-provided schools. The effect of the Bill would be that the cost of these repairs would be charged against the schools and deducted from any payment which the owners of the schools would otherwise have when taken over. To make a charge of that kind was not, he thought, a businesslike manner of dealing with the question. Personally, he objected to the whole clause, but he submitted that, at all events, the Amendment he now proposed should be made."

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 31, to leave out the words ' or repair,' and to insert the words ' enlargement or improvement.' ''—(Mr. Cave.)

Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause.

MR. BIRRELL

said he quite agreed that the words to which the hon. Member objected were not the proper words to use. The proper words were those which were to be found in Section 96 of the Act of 1870, namely, " enlarging, improving, or fitting up." He asked the hon. Member whether he would move the insertion of these words.

MR. CAVE

objected to the words "fitting up," and adhered to his proposal that the words inserted should be " enlargement or improvement," and not " enlarging or improving."

MR. BIRRELL

I will take your words.

MR. PERKS

asked the Minister for Education whether the " public funds " referred to in the sub-section would cover monies which had been received by many of these voluntary schools from public corporations which gave donations and subscriptions simply to keep out school boards. In towns like Crewe, Rugby, and Ashford these enlargements and improvement of voluntary schools had been largely provided out of subscriptions from the railway companies given simply to keep down the rates. It would be very unjust if the Commissioners in settling the rent to be paid for the voluntary schools were told that they must only have regard to monies arising from public funds. " Public funds " was not defined in the Bill, and he wished to know whether it included subscriptions from these corporations.

MR. BIRRELL

said he did not think it was possible for Parliament to inquire into the motives which induced these railway companies or any other subscribers to give to any fund. A great many public bodies conceived it to be part of their duty to provide education for the children of their employees and he thought it would be an impossible task—although the attempt would be one which his analytical mind would greatly enjoy—to ascertain the precise motive which induced either corporations or individuals to give millions or smaller sums. It was perfectly true there were towns where railway companies had subscribed funds for this particular purpose, but it would be impossible to treat their subscriptions as public funds within the meaning of the Act. He was obliged, therefore, to answer the Question in the negative.

MR. LEIF JONES

asked the Minister for Education whether the words " fitting up " should not also be included in the Amendment. He was not sure that the case was met by the words " enlargement or improvement." If money had been spent in "fitting up" it seemed fair that it should be reckoned. He moved as an Amendment to the Amendment the addition of the words " fitting up."

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— At end to add 'or fitting up.'"—(Mr. Leif Jones.)

SIR FRANCIS POWELL (Wigan)

moved an Amendment providing that the Commission, in making an arrangement for the transfer of a schoolhouse to the local authority, should consider the grants or assistance received from public funds towards the building or repair of the schoolhouse "and the dates at which such grants or assistance were received." He pointed out that in old days ' the grants to supporters of voluntary-schools were given under something of the nature of a contract. There was a condition that the promoters of the school should expend a similar amount, and when this had been done, there was no obligation remaining on one side or the other. Moreover, the amount paid by the Government for building Church of England schools was about £1,500,000, whereas the amount contributed by the friends of Church of England schools had exceeded £20,000,000. The beginning of building grants on a scale worthy of consideration was in 1840; and having regard to the deterioration of buildings which must, occur in sixty-five years it seemed to him most unjust to refer back to grants given at or near that period. Moreover, they knew what strong pressure had been put, and in his opinion rightly put, on the managers of schools by his hon. friend Mr. Acland, to improve their buildings, especially in regard to cloak-rooms, class-rooms and out offices. In consequence of such demands very large sums had been expended, and the charges made were in some instances so great that the old buildings might really be said to have disappeared. He did not think the Government meant to act unjustly, but unless there was direction given to the Commissioners that they should take into consideration the dates as well as the amounts of grants, great injustice and great wrong would be done.

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 32, after the word 'school-house,' to insert the weds 'and the dates at which such grants or assistance were recived.''—(Sir Francis Powell.)

Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."

THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir W. ROBSON,) South Shields

said that the Commissioners were directed in very general terms to take into consideration the whole circumstances; and he thought it would be very undesirable to give too minute directions in that regard.

SIR FRANCIS POWELL

said that the question was whether they would do that without a direction in the statute.

SIR W. ROBSON

said the words, "that the use of the schoolhouse for the purpose of a public elementary school by the local education authority" were sufficient to show that the Commissioners would consider the amount of the grant and all the circumstances under which the grant was made, and the present value of the school. It would be inadvisable to enter into too minute details in the clause of the Bill, and he thought the general expression was sufficient.

LORD BALCARRES

said the only objection which the hon. and learned Gentleman had made to accepting the Amendment was that it would encumber the clause; but even if the Amendment were accepted it would not unduly overburden the clause, and he thought the Commissioners would be able to master its contents. At any rate they would be making it clear that not only the amount but the date of the grants should be taken into consideration.

LORD R. CECIL (Marylebone, E.)

hoped the Government would accept the words. He understood the Solicitor-General to say that this sub-section directed the Commissioners not only to take into consideration the amount of the grants but all the circumstances under which they were made. The clause as it stood said that the Commissioners were to consider " the grants," not the circumstances under which they

were made. He could not suppose that there would be any general objection to adding the words " and all other circumstances affecting the grants." The Amendment of his hon. friend or those he suggested would only give effect to what the Solicitor-General had stated.

MR. LAURENCE HARDY

hoped that the Government would undertake to consider this question before the Report stage.

SIR W. ROBSON

said that the meaning was sufficiently clear already. If they stated one circumstance they would have to state all. The general reference was sufficient.

MR. LAURENCE HARDY

could not see what harm there would be in inserting words in the Bill enabling the Commissioners to consider the whole matter.

SIR W. ROBSON

said the Commissioners were given a discretion which was indicated by the fact that they might take into view " such other circumstances as may in their opinion properly be considered."

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 152; Noes, 304. (Division List No. 195.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)	Butcher, Samuel Henry	Duffy, William J.
Acland-Hood, Rt. HnSirAlexF.	Carlile, E. Hildred	Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan
Ambrose, Robert	Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Faber, George Denison (York)
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Cavendish, Rt. Hon. VictorC. W.	Fell, Arthur
Anstruther-Gray. Major	Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-	Flavin, Michael Joseph
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. HughO.	Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)	Fletcher. J. S.
Ashley, W. W.	Clancy, John Joseph	Flynn, James Christopher
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. SirH.	Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)	Forster, Henry William
Balcarres, Lord	Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A, E.	Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)
Balfour, RtHn. A.J.(CityLond.)	Condon, Thomas Joseph	Gibbs, C. A. (Bristol, West)
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)	Courthope, G. Loyd	Ginnell, L.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Craig, CharlesCnrtis(AntriniS.	Gordon. Sir W. Evans(T'rHam.
Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)	Craig, CaptainJanies(Down, E.	Haddock, George R.
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks	Craik, Sir Henry	Halpin, J.
Bignold, Sir Arthur	Crean, Eugene	Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford
Blake, Edward	Cullinan, J.	Hay, Hon. Claude George
Boland, John	Delany, William	Hayden, John Patrick
Bowles, G. Stuart	Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway	Hazleton, Richard
Boyle, Sir Edward	Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon	Heaton, John Henniker
Bridgeman, W. Clive	Dolan, Charles Joseph	Helmsley, Viscount
Bull, Sir William James	Donelan, Captain A.	Hervey, F.W.F.(BuryS. Edm'ds
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Hill. Sir Clement(Shrewsbury)
Burke, E. Haviland-	Du Cros, Harvey	Hills, J. W.
Hogan, Michael	Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Hornby, Sir William Henry	Mooney, J. J.	Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Houston, Robert Paterson	Murphy, John	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Hunt, Rowland	Nicholson, Wm. G.(Petersfield)	Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Kennaway, Rt. Hon. SirJohnH.	Nield, Herbert	Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)
Kennedy, Vincent Paul	Nolan, Joseph	Smith, F. E.(Liverpool, Walton
Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.	O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid	Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Keswick, William	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)	Starkey, John R.
Kilbride, Denis	O'Connor, James (Wicklow. W.)	Sullivan, Donal
Lambton, Hon. FrederickWm.	O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Lane-Fox, G. R.	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.
Law, Andrew Bonar(Dulwich)	O'Hare, Patrick	Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo. N.)	Thornton, Percy M.
Liddell, Henry	O'Kelly, James(Roscommon ,N.	Turnour, Viscount
Lockwood. Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.	O'Malley, William	Valentia, Viscount
Long, Col. CharlesW.(Evesham	O'Mara, James	Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Lonsdale, John Brownlee	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.	Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid).
Lundon, W.	O'Shee, James John	White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)	Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift	Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down, S.	Power, Patrick Joseph	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart.
M'Iver, SirLewis(EdinburghW.	Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
M'Kean, John	Rawlinson, John Frederick P.	Young, Samuel
Magnus, Sir Philip	Redmond, John E. (Waterford)	Younger, George
Marks, H. H. (Kent)	Redmond, William (Clare)
Mason, James F. (Windsor)	Remnant, James Farquharson	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Francis Powell and Mr. Cave.
Meagher, Michael	Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton	Roche, John (Galway, East)
NOES.
Acland, Francis Dyke	Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen)	Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)
Adkins, W. Ryland	Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)	Dunne, Maj. E. Martin (Walsall
Agnow, George William	Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Buckmaster, Stanley O.	Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)
Alden, Percy	Burnyeat, J. D. W.	Edwards, Frank (Radnor)
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)	Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas	Elibank, Master of
Armitage, R.	Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.	Ellis, Rt. Hn. John Edward
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Byles, William Pollard	Erskine, David C.
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry	Cameron, Robert	Essex, R. W.
Astbury, John Meir	Garr-Gomm, H. W.	Everett, R. Lacey
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard K.	Faber, G. H. (Boston)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Cheetham, John Frederick	Fen wick, Charles
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Cherry, Rt. Hon. B. R.	Ferens, T. R.
Barker, John	Churchill, Winston Spencer	Fiennes, Hon. Eustace
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Clarke, C. Goddard	Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter
Barnard, E. B.	Cleland, J. W.	Fowler, Rt. Hon, Sir Henry
Beak, W. P.	Clough, W.	Fullerton, Hugh
Beauchamp, E.	Clynes, J. R.	Gibb, James (Harrow)
Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)	Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.	Gill, A. H.
Beck, A. Cecil	Cobbold, Felix Thornley	Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John
Bell, Richard	Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)	Glendinning, R. G.
Bellairs, Carlyon	Collins, SirWmJ. (S. PancrasW	Gooch, George Peabody
Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.	Copper, G. J.	Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)
Bennett, E. N.	Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, EGrinst'd	Greenwood, Hamar (York)
Berridge, T. H. D.	Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.	Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward
Bertram, Julius	Cory, Clifford John	Griffith, Ellis J.
Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)	Cotton, Sir H. J. S.	Grove, Archibald
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)	Cowan, W. H.	Gull and, John W.
Billson, Alfred	Craig, Herbert J.(Tynemouth)	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton.
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Cremer, William Randal	Hall, Frederick
Black, Alexander Win. (Banff)	Crombie, John William	Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis
Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.	Crossfield, A. H.	Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)
Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire, N. E.	Davies, David(MontgomeryCo.	Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)
Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)	Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan	Harmsworth, R. L.(Caithn's-ssh
Brace, William	Davies, Timothy (Fulham)	Hart-Davies, T.
Bramsdon, T A.	Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)	Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
Branch, James	Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.	Haslam, James (Derbyshire)
Brocklehurst, W. D.	Dickinson, W.H. (St. Paenras, N.	Haslam, Lewis (Honmouth)
Brodie, H. C.	Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Hazel, Dr. A. E.
Brooke, Stopford	Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Brunner, J.F. L. (Lanes. Leigh)	Dobson, Thomas W.	Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)
Brunner, Sir J. T. (Cheshire)	Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)	Henry, Charles S.

Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon. S.	Mond, A.	Silcock, Thomas Ball
Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)	Morley, L.G. Chiozza	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Higham, John Sharp	Montagu, E. S.	Sloan, Thomas Henry
Hobart, Sir Robert	Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Hobhouse, Charles E. H	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)	Soares, Ernest J.
Hodge, John	Morley, Rt. Hon. John	Spicer, Sir Albert
Holland, Sir William Henry	Morrell, Philip	Stanger, H. Y.
Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)	Morse, L. L.	Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh)
Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.	Murray, James	Strachey, Sir Edward
Horniman, Emslie John	Myer, Horatio	Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey	Napier, T. B.	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Hudson, Walter	Nicholls, George	Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Hyde, Clarendon	Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster	Summerbell. T.
Illingworth, Percy H.	Norman, Henry	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Isaacs, Rufus Daniel	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Jackson, R. S.	Nuttall, Harry	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe))
Jacoby, James Alfred	O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)	Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)
Jardine, Sir J.	O'Grady, J.	Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Jenkins, J.	Paul, Herbert	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E)
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Paulton, James Mellor	Thomasson, Franklin
Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)	Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E
Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)	Pearce, William (Limehouse)	Thorne, William
Jowett, F. W.	Perks, Robert William	Tomkinson, James
Kearley, Huason E.	Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)	Torrance, Sir A. M.
Kekewich, Sir George	Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke	Toulmin, George
Kincaid-Smith, Captain	Pickersgill, Edward Hare	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
King, Alfred John (Knutsford)	Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central	Ure, Alexander
Laidlaw. Robert	Price, Robert John (NorfolkE.	Verney, F. W.
Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)	Priestley, W. E.B. (Bradford, E.	Vivian, Henry
Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)	Radford, G. H.	Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Lambert, George	Rainy, A. Rolland	Wallace, Robert
Lamont, Norman	Raphael, Herbert H.	Walton, Sir J. L. (Leeds, S.)
Layland-Barratt, Francis	Rees, J. D.	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.	Rendall, Athelstan	Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent
Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington)	Renton, Major Leslie	Wardle, George J.
Lehmann, R. C.	Richards, T.F. (Wolverh'mpt'n	Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)	Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln)	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Levy, Maurice	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)	Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
Lewis, John Herbert	Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)	Waterlow, D. S.
Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David	Robertson, SirGScott(Bradf'rd	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Lough, Thomas	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneskle)	White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Lupton, Arnold	Robinson, S.	Whitehead, Rowland
Luttrell, Hugh Fownes	Robson, Sir William Snowdon	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Lyell, Charles Henry	Roe, Sir Thomas	Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Rogers, F. E. Newman	Wiles, Thomas
Mackarness, Frederic C.	Rose, Charles Day	Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Maclean, Donal	Rowlands, J.	Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthett
Macpherson, J. T.	Runciman, Walter	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
M'Arthur, William	Russell, T. W.	Wilson, Hon. Ch. W.(Hull, W.)
M'Callum, John M.	Samuel, Herbert L.(Cloveland)	Wilson, J.H. (Middlesbrough)
M'Kenna, Reginald	Scarisbrick, T. T. L.	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
M'Laren, H. P. (Stafford, W.)	Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)	Winfrey, R.
M'Micking, Major G.	Schwann, Sir C. (Manchester)	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Maddison, Frederick	Scott, A. H-(Ashton-und.-Lyne	Woodhouse, Sir JT(Huddersf'd
Mallet, Charles E.	Sears, J. E.	Yoxall, James Henry
Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln	Seaverns, J. H.
Marnham, F. J.	Seddon, J.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Massie, J.	Seely, Major J. B.
Menzies, Walter	Shackleton, David James
Micklein, Nathaniel	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Molteno, Percy Alport	Shipman Dr. John G.

LORD BALCARRES

moved to insert at the end of Sub-section 1, line 32, after " schoolhouse" the words "the contributions of the supporters of the school to the maintenance and repair of the school-house and the saving effected to public funds as regards salaries of officials and expense of administration by the volun- tary service of school correspondents and other supporters of the schools." This would provide that these things should be taken into consideration in addition to the grants for assistance received from public funds towards the building or repair of the schoolhouse He brought the Amendment forward by way of illustration of the matters which the Commissioners should take into account. The four sub-sections given in the clause dealt with topics which obviously and manifestly would tell against the trustees of voluntary schools. He therefore proposed that Amendment to give illustrations in an opposite sense in favour of the owners. If the right hon. Gentleman took exception to the precise words perhaps he would put in one or more illustrations to act as counterpoise to those in the clause.

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 32, after the word ' school house,' to insert the words, ' and the contributions of the supporters of the school to the maintenance and repair of the schoolhouse and the saving effected of public funds, as regards salaries of officials and expenses of administration by the voluntary services of school correspondents and other supporters of the schools.' " —(Lord Balcarres.)

Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."

SIR W. ROBSON

thought the Amendment illustrated the advantage of not being too specific. It sought to give directions to the Commissioners, but he noticed that it omitted all reference to contributions by the supporters of the school towards the building of the school.

LORD BALCARRES

said that could be put in.

SIR W. ROBSON

said that, as the Amendment now stood, the Commissioners would have to take into account the giants made out of public funds towards building, but not the amounts subscribed by the personal supporters of the schools. That showed the danger of trying to go in great minuteness into these matters. The Government could not accept the Amendment.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

asked why the Government saw no difficulty and no objection as to all the things that were to be taken into account under Sub-sections (i), (ii), (iii), and (iv), which told against the owners of the schools, when directly a suggestion was made that there should be some balance— that suggestions should be made not for one side only, but for both, they suddenly became alive to the extraordinary danger of minuteness and precision. He did not deny that there was some force in the considerations urged by the hon. and learned Gentleman. He did not deny that there might be danger lurking in too great precision and microscopic and minute considerations in the drafting of the Bill. But if these cautious principles were thrown to the wind on the one side, let them, be thrown to the wind on the other. Let not the right hon. Gentleman resist suggestions in favour of the voluntary schools on grounds quite as valid as those urged in favour of the sub-sections and on grounds which ought to carry weight in the Committee. He did not wish to speak too strongly on the subject, because he recognised that the right hon. Gentleman had done much to meet them in this matter. But he confessed the clause as it originally stood was plainly and obviously framed in favour in every respect of the local authority and against the owners and trustees when they came before the Commission. Some not inconsiderable traces of that taint remained in the clause, and if there was an objection to the words of his noble friend some better grounds should be found for resisting the Amendment.

LORD R. CECIL

said that this was a matter in which the Committee was entitled to hear the views of the right hon. Gentleman. It was only reasonable to suggest that some directions should be given to the Commissioners to consider the wishes of the owners of the school if so many directions were given them to consider the wishes of the local authority. His noble friend had said he was quite ready to accept the words of the Government to his words were objected to, and that being so the criticism of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General of the words of the Amendment was no answer to it at all. The object was that the inquiry should not be one sided, and that was an object that he hoped the Government would carry out

Question put.

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.	Fell, Arthur	Nolan, Joseph
Acland-Hood, Rt. HnSir Al x F.	Field, William	O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid
Ambrose, Robert	Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Flavin, Michael Joseph	O'Connor. James(Wicklow, W.
Anstruther-Gray, Major	Fletcher, J. S.	O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Flynn, James Christopher	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn HughO	Forster, Henry William	O'Grady, J.
Ashley, W. W.	Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)	O'Hare, Patrick
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon Sir H.	Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Balcarres, Lord	Ginnell, L.	O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.
Balfour, RtHn. A. J. (City Lond)	Haddock, George R.	O'Malley, William
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)	Halpin, J.	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford	O'Shee, James John
Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)	Hay, Hon. Claude George	Parker, Sir (Gilbert (Gravesend)
Beach, Hn. MichaelHughHicks	Hayden, John Patrick	Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington)
Bignold, Sir Arthur	Hazelton, Richard	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Blake, Edward	Helmsley, Viscount	Power, Patrick Joseph
Boland, John	Hervey ,F. W. F. (BuryS. Edm'ds	Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne
Bowles, G. Stewart	Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)	Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Boyle, Sir Edward	Hills, J. W.	Redmond. William (Clare)
Bridgeman, W. Clive	Hogan, Michael	Remnant, James Farquharson
Bull, Sir William James	Hornby, Sir William Henry	Roche, John (Galway. East)
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Houston, Robert Paterson	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Burke, E. Haviland	Hunt, Rowland	Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Butcher, Samuel Henry	Kennaway. Rt. Hn. Sir John H.	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Carlile, E. Hildred	Kennedy, Vincent Paul	Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.	Smith, Abel K. (Hertford, East)
Cave, George	Keswick, William	Smith, F.E. (Liverpool, Walton)
Oavendish. Rt. Hn. VictorC. W.	Kilbride, Denis	Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.	Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Cheshire
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-	Lane-Fox, G. R.	Starkey, John R.
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone. E.)	Law, Andrew Bonar.(Dulwich)	Sullivan, Donal
Clancy, John Joseph	Lee, Arthur H(Hants. Fareham	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)	Liddell, Henry	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(OxfdUniv.
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)	Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Lundon, W.	Thornton, Percy M.
Courthope, G. Loyd	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Turnour, Viscount
Craig, CharlesCurtis(Antrim, S	MacNeill, John Gordon Swift	Valentia, Viscount
Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)	Macpherson, J. T.	Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Craik, Sir Henry	MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down. S.	Warde, Col, C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Crean, Eugene .	M'Iver. SirLewis(EdinburghW	White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Cullinan, J	M'Kean, John	Wilson, A. Stanley (Vork. E.R.)
Delany, William	Magnus, Sir Philip	Wolf, Gustav Wilhelm
Devlin, CharlesRamsay (Galw'y	Marks, H. H. (Kent)	Wortley. Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon.	Mason, James F. (Windsor)	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Dolan, Charles Joseph	Meagher, Michael	Young, Samuel
Donelan, Captain A.	Middlemore, Jhn. Throgmorton	Younger, George
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Du Cros, Harvev	Mooney, J. J.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Samuel Roberts and Mr. Rawlinson.
Duffy, William J.	Murphy, John
Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan	Nicholson, Wm. G.(Petersfield)
Faber, George Denison (York)	Nield, Herbert

NOES.
Acland, Francis Dyke	Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Berridge, T. H. D.
Adkins, W. Ryland	Barker, John	Bertram. Julius
Agnew, George William	Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Barnard, E. B.	Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)
Alden, Percy	Beale, W. P.	Billson, Alfred
Allen. A. Acland (Christchureh)	Beauchamp, E.	Biirell, Rt. Hon. Augustine
Armitage, R.	Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)	Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff)
Aehton, Thomas Gair	Beck, A. Cecil	Black. Arthur W.(Bedfordshire)
Asquith, RtHonHerbertHenry	Bell, Richard	Bolton. T. D. (Derbyshire. N.E.)
Astbury, John Meir	Bellairs, Carlyon	Boultou. A. C. F. (Ramsey)
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Benn, W. (T'w'r H'mlets. S. Geo.	Brace, William
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Bennett, E. N.	Bramsdon, T. A.

The Committee divided:—Aves, 151; Noes, 310. (Division List No. 196.)

Branch, James	Griffith, Ellis J.	Marnham, F. J.
Brocklehurst, W. D.	Grove, Archibald	Massie, J.
Brodie, H. C.	Gulland, John W.	Masterman, C. F. G.
Brooke, Stopford	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Menzies, Walter
Brunner, J.F.L. (Lanes., Leigh)	Hall, Frederick	Micklem, Nathaniel
Brunner.Sir John T. (Cheshire)	Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis	Molteno, Percy Alport
Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeen	Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)	Mond, A
Bryce, J.A.(InvernessBurghs)	Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)	Money, L. G. Chiozza
Buchanan, Thomas, Ryburu	Harmsworth, R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh	Montagu, E. S.
Buckmaster, Stanley 0.	Hart-Davies, T.	Montgomery, H. G.
Burnyeat, J. D. W.	Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)	Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas	Haslam, James (Derbyshire)	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)*
Buxton, Rt. Hn. SydneyCharles	Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)	Morley, Rt. Hon. John
Byles, William Pollard	Hazel, Dr. A. E.	Morrell, Philip
Cameron, Robert	Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Morse, L. L.
Carr-Gomm, H. W.	Henry, Charles S.	Murray, James
Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight	Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)	Myer, Horatio
Cheetham, John Frederick	Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)	Napier, T. B.
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.	Higham, John Sharp	Nicholls, George
Churchill, Winston Spencer	Hobart, Sir Robert	Nicholson, CharlesN(Doncaster
Clarke, C. Goddard	Hobhouse, Charles E. H.	Norman, Henry
Cleland, J. W.	Hodge, John	Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Clough, W.	Holland, Sir William Henry	Nuttall, Harry
Clynes. J. R.	Hope, John Dcans (Fife, West)	O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth;
Coats, SirT. Glen(Renfrew, W.)	Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.	Paul, Herbert
Cobbold, Felix Thornley	Horniraan, Emslie John	Paulton, James Mellor
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)	Howard, Hon. Geoffrey	Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)
Collins, Sir W m J(S. Pancras, W	Hudson, Walter	Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Corbett, CH(Sussex, G. Grinst'd	Hyde, Clarendon	Perks, Robert William
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.	Illingworth, Percy H.	Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampt'n
Cory, Clifford John	Isaacs, Rufus Daniel	Phillips, J. Wynford(Pembroke)
Cotton, Sir H. J. S.	Jackson, R. S.	Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Cowan, W. H.	Jacoby, James Alfred	Price, C.E.(Edinburgh, Central)
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth	Jardine, Sir J.	Price. Robert John(Norfolk, E.)
Cremer, William Randal	Jenkins, J.	Priestley, W. E. B. (BradfordE.),
Crombie, John William	Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Radford, G. H.
Crosfield, A. H.	Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Rainy, A. Rolland
Davies, David(Montgomery Co.	Jones, William (Carnarvonshire	Raphael, Herbert H.
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)	Jowett, F. W.	Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro'
Davies, M. Vanghan- (Cardigan)	Kearley, Hudson E.	Rees, J. D.
Davies, Timothy (Fulham)	Kekewich, Sir George	Rendall, Athelstan
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol. S.)	Kincaid-Smith, Captain	Renton, Major Leslie
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.	King, Alfred John (Knutsford)	Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n)
Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancas, N.	Laidlaw, Robert	Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles	Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.,
Dobson, Thomas W.	Lambert, George	Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)
Duncan, J.H. (York, Otley)	Lamont, Norman	Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Dunne, MajorE. Martin(Walsall	Lea, HughCecil (St. Pancras. E.)	Robinson, S.
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)	Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington	Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)	Lehmann, R. C.	Roe, Sir Thomas
Edwards, Frank (Radnor)	Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)	Rogers, F. E. Newman
Elibank, Master of	Levy, Maurice	Rose, Charles Day
Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward	Lewis, John Herbert	Rowlands, J.
Erskine, David C.	Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David	Runciman, Walter
Essex, R. W.	Lough, Thomas	Russell, T. W.
Everett, R. Lacey	Lupton, Arnold	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Faber, G. H. (Boston)	Luttrell, Hugh Fownes	Scarisbriek, T. T. L.
Fenwick, Charles	Lyell, Charles Henry	Schwann, C. Dunean (Hyde)
Ferens, T. R.	Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Schwann, Sir C.E.(Manchester)
Fiennes, Hon. Eustace	Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs	Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne
Foster, Rt. Hn. Sir Walter	Mackarness, Frederic C.	Sears, J. E.
Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry	Maclean, Donald	Seaverns, J. H.
Fullerton, Hugh	M'Arthur, William	Seddon, J.
Gibb, James (Harrow)	M'Callum, John M.	Seely, Major J. B.
Gill, A. H.	M'Kenna, Reginald	Shackleton, David James
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.	M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)	Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford
Glendinning, R. G.	M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W-)	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Gooch, George Peabody	M'Micking, Major G.	Silcock. Thomas Ball
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	Maddison, Frederick	Simon, John Allsebrook
Greenwood, Hamar (York)	Mallet, Charles E.	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward	Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)	Sloan, Thomas Henry

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie	Torrance, Sir A. M.	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Soames, Arthur Wellesley	Toulmin, George	Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Soares, Ernest J.	Trevelyan, Charles Philips	Wiles, Thomas
Spicer, Sir Albert	Ure, Alexander	Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Stanger, H. Y.	Verney, F. W.	Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthen
Strachey, Sir Edward	Vivian, Henry	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Straus, B. S. (Mile End)	Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)	Wilson, Hon. C. H. W.(Hull, W.)
Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)	Wallace, Robert	Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Stuart, James (Sunderland)	Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)	Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Summer bell, T.	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)	Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)	Winfrey, R.
Taylor, John W. (Durham)	Wardle, George J.	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)	Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.	Woodhouse, SirJ. T.(Hudd'rsfi'd
Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)	Yoxall, James Henry
Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)	Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)	Waterlow, D. S.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Thomasson, Franklin	Whitbread, Howard
Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Thorne, William	White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Tomkinson, James	Whitehead, Rowland

MR. ASHLEY (Lancashire, Blackpool)

moved to omit sub-paragraph (ii). He said he objected to all four sub-paragraphs, but especially to sub-paragraph (ii), because he thought it was grossly misleading and unfair. Why should they direct the Commission to take into account the limited nature of the user of the school by the local education authority, when they were not to be asked to take into account the limited nature of the user by the trustees? It was well known that if this Bill were passed the local education authority would be able by structural alterations so to alter the schoolhouse as to make it perfectly useless for any other purposes than that of a public elementary school. He had in his mind the schools of Christ Church, Hoxton. He understood these schools were held under trust which allowed of their use both as a public elementary school and as a gymnasium and for other purposes. The London County Council had intimated that they must have the schoolroom divided into classrooms in order that the elementary school might be carried on. He did not quarrel with that, but the trustees of the school had said they would not allow a public elementary school to be carried on there after the end of the term, because the use of the school for other purposes would be put an end to. As the law stood at the present moment the trustees had the power if they liked to safeguard the other uses of the school, but if this clause were passed they would have no control, and the local education authority would be able to put up partitions or fix seats in the schoolroom in a way that would prevent its use for other purposes.

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 33, to leave out subparagraph (ii)"—(Mr. Ashley.)

Question proposed, " That the word ' the ' stand part of the clause."

MR. BIRRELL

thought that some of the criticism of the hon. Gentleman approached what might be called without offence hypercriticism. There might be two opinions as to the necessity of the sub-paragraph. As the Commissioners were men of the utmost intelligence, integrity, and experience, the first thing that they would have before their minds would be that all that was required was that the local authority should obtain just that use of the premises for the purposes of a public elementary school—which was already going on, because one had always to bear in mind that they were now dealing with existing voluntary schools. Therefore they had not to consider the question of other uses to which the school was being put at other times than school hours. All that they had to consider was whether it was possible to continue the public elementary school on the premises during school hours. Although he would not mind one atom if these words were struck out, because they were of the very essence of the contract before the parties, namely, the acquisition of these premises for a very limited purpose, still he thought that, after all, these things had an educational influence in that they showed that they were not trying to drive people out of their own premises and destroying trusts extraneous to those of a public elementary school. It was useful that people should get it well into their heads that all that this Star Chamber—as it was once called, but which was now regarded as a perfectly safe and sound body—had to do was to consider whether the school should continue as a public elementary school during school hours on five days a week. That being so, he could not see what was the use of occupying the time of the Committee when there were so many more important things to be considered. The words proposed to be left out were as harmless as any that ever found their way into an Act of Parliament.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said the Committee could not forget the Solicitor-General's speech of a few moments ago. The right hon. Gentleman with admirable ingenuity had discovered an argument that had escaped the acute eye of the

Solicitor-General, and having nothing better to say in defence of this subsection it occurred to him that, however useless it might be from other points of view, it had a very great educational influence. He now understood for the first time what the right hon. Gentleman meant when he said on the First Reaching that this Bill had an educational side. He had discovered that it came in in sub-paragraph (ii.)of Clause 8. He was ready to accept all the educational value that; was derived from this sub-paragraph, if it was made educational not entirely in one direction, but leaving the mind of the educated person in that well-balanced state which was the sign of true wisdom. He therefore suggested that the right hon. Gentleman should either accept his hon. friend's Amendment, or make a more symmetrical arrangement than the subsection now presented.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Aves, 319; Noes, 149. (Division List No. 197.)

Ferens, T. R.	Levy, Maurice	Roe, Sir Thomas
Ferguson, R. C. Munro	Lewis, John Herbert	Rogers, F. E. Newman
Fiennes, Hon. Eustace	Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David	Rose, Charles Day
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter	Lough, Thomas	Row lands, J.
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Luptou, Arnold	Runciman, Walter
Fuller, John Michael F.	Luttrell, Hugh Fownes	Russell, T. W.
Fullerton, Hugh	Lyell, Charles Henry	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Gibb, James (Harrow)	Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Scarisbrick, T. T. L.
Gill, A. H.	Macdonald, J.M. (FalkirkB'ghs	Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Gladstone, Rt. Hn HerbertJohn	Mackaraess, Frederic C.	Schwann, Sir C.E. (Manchester)
Glendinning, R. G.	Maclean, Donald	Scott, A. H. (Asliton under Lyne
Goddard, Daniel Ford	M'Arthur, William	Sears, J. E.
Gooch, George Peabody	M'Callum, John M.	Seaverns, J. H
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	M'Crae, George	Seddon, J.
Greenwood, Hamar (York)	M'Kenna, Reginald	Seely, Major J. B.
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward	M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)	Shackleton, David James
Griffith, Ellis J.	M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Grove, Archibald	M'Micking, Major G.	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Gulland, John W.	Maddison, Frederick	Silcock, Thomas Ball
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Mallet, Charles E.	Simon, John Allsebrook
Hall, Frederick	Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis	Marnham, F. J.	Sloan, Thomas Henry
Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)	Massie, J.	Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcs'r	Masterman, C. F. G.	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Harmsworth, R.L (Caithn'ss-sh	Menzies, Walter	Soares, Ernest J.
Hart-Davies, T.	Micklem, Nathaniel	Spicer, Sir Albert
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)	Mond, A.	Stanger, H. Y.
Harwood, George	Money, L. G. Chiozza	Stanley, Hn. A Lyulph (Chesh.
Haslam, James (Derbyshire)	Montagu, E. S.	Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)	Montgomery, H- H.	Strachev, Sir Edward
Hazel, Dr. A. E.	Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)	Morley, Rt. Hon. John	Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Henry, Charles S.	Morrell, Philip	Summerbell, T.
Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon. S.)	Morse, L. L.	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)	Murray, James	Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Higham, John Sharp	Myer, Horatio	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Hobart, Sir Robert	Napier, T. B.	Tennant, SirEdward (Salisbury)
Hobhouse, Charles E. H.	Nicholls, George	Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Hodge, John	Nicholson, Charles N(Doncast'r	Thomas, SirA.(Glamorgan, E.)
Holden, E. Hopkinson	Norman, Henry	Thomasson, Franklin
Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Thompson. J. W. H. Somerset. E-
Hope, W. Bateman(Soinerset, N.	Nuttall, Harry	Thorne, William
Horninian, Emslie John	Paul, Herbert	Tomkinson, James
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey	Paulton, James Mellor	Torrance, Sir A. M.
Hudson, Walter	Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)	Toulmin, George
Hyde, Clarendon	Pearce, William (Limehouse)	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Illingworth, Percy H.	Perks, Robert William	Ure, Alexander
Isaacs, Rufus Daniel	Philipps,Col.Ivor (S'thampton	Verney, F. W.
Jackson, R. S.	Philipps, J. Wynfordf Pembroke	Vivian, Henry
Jacoby, James Alfred	Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)	Walker, H. De R, (Leicester)
Jardine, Sir J.	Pickcrsgill, Edward Hare	Wallace, Robert
Jenkins, J.	Price, C. E.(Edinb'gh,Central) .	Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Price, Robert John(Norfolk,E	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Priestlev, W.E.B.(Bradford,E.	Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent
Jones, William(Carnarvonshire)	Radford, G. H.	Wardle, George J.
Jowett, F. W.	Rainy, A. Holland	Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Kearley, Hudson E.	Raphael, Herbert H.	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Kekewich, Sir George	Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro')	Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)
Kincaid-Smith, Captain	Rees, J. D.	Waterlow, D. S.
King, Alfred John (Knutsford)	Rendall, Athelstan	Whitbread, Howard
Laidlaw, Robert	Renton, Major Leslie	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster	Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n	White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)	Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)	Whitehead, Rowland
Lambert, George	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Lamont, Norman	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)	Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Layland-Barratt,Francis	Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)	Wiles, Thomas
Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras. E.)	Robertson, SirG. Scott (Bradf'd	Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Leese, SirJoseph F. (Accrington	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)	Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthen
Lehmann, R. C.	Robinson, S.	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Lever, W. H (Cheshire.Wirral)	Robson, Sir William Snowdon	Wilson, Hon. C.H.W. (Hull, W.).
		Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras. S.)	Wood, T. M'Kinnon	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)	Woodhouse, SirJ. T.(Huddersf'd
Winfrey, R. V	Yoxall, James Henry

NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E)	Fineh, Rt. Hon. George H.	O'Brien, K. (Tipperary .Mid)
Acland-Hood, Rt, HnSirAlexF.	Flavin, Michael Joseph	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Ambrose, Robert	Fletcher, J. S.	O'Connor, James (Wicklow. W.)
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Flynn, James Christopher	O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Anstrntlier-Gray, Major	Forster, Henry William	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Gardner. Ernest (Berks, East)	O'Hare, Patrick
Arnold -Forater, Rt. Hn HughO.	Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Aubrey- Fletcher, Rt. Hon.SirH	Ginnell. L.	O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.
Balcarres, Lord	HaddocK, George R.	O'Malley, William
Balfour, RtHnA. J.(City Lond.	Halpin, J	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)	Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)	O'Shee, James John
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Hay, Hon. Claude George	Parker, Sir Gilbert(Gravesend
Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)	Hayden;, John Patrick	Pease, HerbertPike,(Darlington
Beach, Hn. MichaelHughHicks	Hazletoh, Richard	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bignold, Sir Arthur	Helmslejy, Viscount	Power, Patrick Joseph
Blake, Edward	Hervey, F.W.F.(BurySEdm'ds	Rasche, Sir Frederie Carne
Boland, John	Hill, Sir Glement (Shrewsbury)	Rawlinson, John Frederick P.
Bowles, G. Stewart	Hogan, Michael	Redmond. John E. (Waterford)
Bridgeman, W. Clive	Hornby, Sir William Henry	Redmond, William (Clare)
Brotherton, Edward Allen	Houston, Robert Paterson	Remnant, James Farquharson
Bull. Sir William James	Hunt, Rowland	Roberts, S. (Sheffield. Eeclesall
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Kennaway. Rt. Hn. SirJohnH.	Roche, John (Galway. East)
Burke, E. Haviland-	Kennedy. Vincent Paul	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Butcher, Samuel Henry	Kenyon-Slanney. Rt. Hn. Col. W.	Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H-	Keswick, William	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Cave, George	Kilbride, Denis	Scott, SirS. (Marylebone. W.)
Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W-	Lambton, Hon Frederick Win.	Smith, AbelH. (Hertford, East)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Lane-Fox, G. R.	Smith, F. E.(Liverpool. Walton)
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-	Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)	Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)	Lee, ArthurH. (Hants., Fareham	Starkey, John R.
Clancy, John Joseph	Liddell, Henry	Sullivan. Donal
Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)	Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.	Talbot. RtHn. J. G.(0xfdUniv.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham	Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)
Condon. Thomas Joseph	Lundon, W.	Thornton, Percy M.
Courthope. G. Loyd	Lytteiton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Turnour, Viscount
Graig, CharlesCurtis'Antrim. S	Macpherson. J. T'	Valentia, Viscount
Craig, Capt. James (H)own, E.)	MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.	Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Crean, Eugene	M'l ver, SirL (EdinburghW.	Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Cullinan, J.	M'Kean, John	White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Delany, William	M'Kiliop, W.	Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Devlin, CharlesRamsay(Galway	Magnus, Sir Philip	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Dixon-Hartland, SirFred Dixon	Marks, H. H. (Kent)	Wilson; A. Stanley(York. E.R.)
Dolan, Charles Joseph	Mason,, James F. (Windsor)	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Donelan, Captain A.	Meagher, Michael	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Du Cros, Harvey	Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Young, Samuel
Duffy, William J.	Mooney, J. J.	Younger, George
Duncan, Robt. (Lanark, Govan	Murphy, John
Faber, George Denison (York)	Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Ashley and Mr. Curlile.
Fell, Arthur	Meld, Herbert
Field, William	Nolan, Joseph

MR. LAURENCE HARDY

moved to omit the word "limited " from the subsection. The Government had again and again admitted that they only wanted to give general directions to the Commissioners as to what they had to consider, and that they did not want the directions to be of a one-sided character. In that case they should not insert a .word which must have an injurious effect on one of the parties. His Amendment really carried out the expressed intentions of the Government.

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 33, to leave out the word 'limited.'"—(Mr. Laurence Hardy.)

Question proposed, " That the word ' limited ' stand part of the clause."

MR. BIRRELL

said a limited user was the only user that was required, as the local authority would not be acquiring the complete freehold of the property of a school. He did not ask the Committee to admire the sub-section, but what possible object would be obtained by striking out the word "limited" he could not for the life of him understand.

LORD R. CECIL

said it was a perfectly rational Amendment. It would greatly improve the drafting of this Bill, if nothing else. But it did more than that. The sub-section as it stood directed the attention of the Commissioners to only one aspect of the transaction. There was nothing to prevent the Commissioners under this clause providing a scheme for handing the whole thing over to the local education authority if they arrived at the conclusion that on the whole that would be the best business transaction for both sides.

MR. CARLILE (Hertfordshire, St. Albans)

hoped the Government would withdraw this word from the sub-section, because really to all intents and purposes these schools were monopolised by the proposals of the Government. Who could describe the occupation of these schools by the local education authority as a limited use? It was outrageous. The word would convey a totally wrong impression, to the Commissioners, and would lead them astray. In the case of the Star Chamber there was some sort of appeal to the will of the Sovereign, but in this case there was no appeal, so that the Commission would be ten times worse than any Star Chamber.

MR. LAURENCE HARDY

asked leave to withdraw the Amendment, though he certainly thought it exactly carried out the intention of the right hon. Gentleman.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Ms. LANE-FOX (Yorkshire, W.R., Barkston Ash)

moved to omit sub-paragraph (iii), which provided that the Commissioners, in considering the payment to be made for the use of the school house, should have regard to " the facilities given therein for special religious instruction and the performance of the original trusts." He thought that involved an act of very great meanness indeed. He ventured to think that nothing more Jewish was contained in the wholes length of the Bill. [Cries of " Oh !"] He meant nothing offensive to any Gentleman present. He thought the provision a most mean and sordid one. The owners of the voluntary schools had been., trying to get the facilities which the Government had given with a very grudging hand; they had got infinitely less than they had a right to expect, and now they found that under this sub-section even these facilities were to be reckoned up in pounds shillings and pence against them It was obvious that that would be the effect of the sub-section. After the appeal made to the Committee not to increase the number of details to be put before the Commissioners, he thought they might fairly urge that this detail should not be put before them. They might fairly claim that this should be left to the Commissioners themselves. He appealed to the Minister for Education to consider whether the miserable right of two half hours a week in the schools for religious instruction should be reckoned up as part of a financial bargain.

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 35, to leave out sub-paragraph (iii)."—(Mr. Lane-Fox.)

Question proposed, " That the word " the " stand part of the clause."

MR. BIRRELL

said he was surprised that the hon. Gentleman should use such strong language. The fact that facilities were given went to the fulfilment of the trust. Surely the fact that the facilities were given was of the essence of the case. It was all very well for the hon. Gentleman to talk of this "miserable half hour." but it was, as a rule, the time which had hitherto been given to catechetical and formulary instruction, and to speak of it thus was both to underrate its value and the capacity of the children to stand more. The Commissioners might very fairly take into consideration the facilities given when estimating the rent. Hon. Gentlemen seemed rather to suppose that these provisions put some burden on the directing wills of the Commissioners; they did not do anything of the sort, they simply called their attention to particular matters which they might take into their consideration.

MR. RAWLINSON (Cambridge University)

said the Amendment raised a very important principle. The local educational authority, when considering the amount of compensation they were entitled to give to the owners, would look to these sub-paragraphs as being the basis on which the Commissioners would have to decide. The only test that ought to be applied was the market value of the user of the building which the local authority proposed to take over for a certain number of hours in the week. If more money would have to be paid in cases where facilities for religious instruction were given it would give a tremendous leverage to any agnostic element on the local authority. The local authority would be able to say to the owners that they would not give more than £25 if religious facilities were insisted upon, but that they would give £50 if the owners said nothing about religious facilities at all. There should be no higgling of the market in that way.

SIR E. CARSON

asked whether the facilities in question were those in Clause 4 as well as those in Clause 3. If that was so, he supposed that there would necessarily be a different standard of conditions as to payment in the event of the facilities being given under Clause 4 instead of Clause 3.

MR. PERKS

said the sub-paragraph which was proposed to be left out had a material bearing on Sections 3 and 4. He had been going to raise the same point as that to which the hon. and learned Gentleman's question referred. He entirely accepted the view of the Minister for Education that the facilities given for religious instruction were one of the main features which an arbitrator would necessarily take into consideration. A reference to the trust deeds would show that the main object for which the schools were built was to bring up children in, say, the tenets of the Church of England. It was admitted that this was not a money question at all. What was sought to be provided for was the future religious welfare of the children and, therefore, if that had already been provided for, and they came before the Commissioners, who he believed were all members of the Church of England, they would at once say, " This is one of the most material considerations for us to take into account." He asked the Minister for Education whether this sub-section applied as to ordinary facilities schools where on two mornings of the week denominational religious instruction would be given, or to schools under Clause 4 where extended facilities for special religious instruction were given on five mornings in the week. Clause 8 did not come into operation a all where there had been inability to agree. Was the Commission, to say at the outset of the arbitration, " What do you intend your school to be? Is it to be under Clause 3, because that would determine our judgment? " He wanted to know from the Minister for Education whether the provision for the Commission in making their inquiry did really apply to schools under Clause 4, which enjoyed extended facilities for special religious instruction. [Cries of " No."] Somebody said " No," but he wanted the Minister for Education to tell him that. Further, he wanted to know what would happen in the case of village schools where there had been no agreement, and where alone this section would operate.

MR. BIRRELL

said he should have thought that by this time the thing was pretty plain. The Commissioners were to be concerned only with the duty of declaring and of seeing to the fulfilment, so far as they could, of the condition of trusts under which schools were held. The question of trusts did not apply at all to Clause 4. These schools were frankly denominational, and in regard to them what was to be ascertained was the wishes of the parents, with an appeal to the Board of Education under the amended Clause 4, so that they were beyond the purview of the Commission altogether. Then there was a question as to whether or not the schools under trust had been transferred to the local education authority. His hon. friend the Member for Cambridge University seemed to think that they would get rid of the facilities by offering to pay a higher rent; but he was quite certain that they would not be able to transfer any school against the wishes of the owner unless the facilities were given, and that these were sufficiently good to carry out the conditions of trust. The two positions were perfectly and entirely distinct.

MR. LAURENCE HARDY

said he should like to urge the unfairness, if the Commissioners were to take into consideration in fixing the rent these extended facilities, that under Clause 3 no part of the living should be paid by the local education authority. They first made the owners pay for the advantage of the special facilities granted under Clause 3; and then under Clause 8 they fined them for having received them. That seemed to him an unfair method, for by the Bill the Government acknowledged the absolute right of demand. The only result was that the owners of schools were to be fined doubly for the granting of the facilities. The impression they had always had up to now was that religious instruction of a special character which was to be given was to be confined to Clause 3. It might be said in connection with the new Amendment, that the Bill dealt with many other considerations under Clause 4, which would come under the purview of the Commission. He confessed he understood that this Commission had nothing to do with the question of facilities at all. The facilities were not granted by the Commission, but by the scheme. He was very glad his hon. friend had moved the omission of the words, for he thought that an extreme, injustice would be inflicted when the school owners had to pay for those facilities and then to pay for them over again.

MR. BUTCHER (Cambridge University)

said there were strong reasons for omitting this sub-paragraph. He called the attention of the Committee to the words of sub-section (6); the Commission may by the scheme make provision for the purpose of giving effect to the trust "subject to such conditions (if any) as to payment, or other matters —where " other matters " must include " facilities " for special religious instruction, as these would be among the essential conditions of the bargain—and the clause then runs on, " having regard to ‥‥the facilities given " in the schoolhouse " for special religious instruction." Clearly there was a want of logical coherence in the drafting, nor was it possible to say what the effect of such words would be. Apart, however, from the form, the intention of sub-paragraph (iii) obviously was, as the Commission think just, that the rent of the schoolhouse should be, or might be reduced on the score that facilities were given for special religious instruction. He assumed that the local education authority would have already got the use of the school to the full extent they desired for the purpose of giving the particular form of religious instruction they required. Was it reasonable, then, because another form of religious teaching was being given in another room at the same hour, that the rent for the school should be diminished as if the rights of the local authority were thereby curtailed?

MR. WILLIAM REDMOND (Clare, E.)

said it appeared to him that these words meant that the rent was to be reduced in schools where special facilities were given for religious education. There was a general feeling abroad that the object of all these provisions was to discourage parents from declaring in favour of facilities being given for religious teaching, because these facilities would mean the loss of a certain amount of money. He did not know whether this proposal would apply to schools coming under Section 4. He presumed under the new Amendment it would not. But a great number of schools would in any case be excluded from the operation of Clause 4, as the Minister for Education knew, through a variety of reasons, and they would be affected by these words. It seemed to him, looking at the matter in a plain way, that the sum total of this provision was that in schools where facilities were given for teaching of a particular class, a certain amount of rent would be withheld simply because those facilities were given. He thought that would be unfair. It would not be in order for him to discuss upon this clause considerations applying to Clause 4, but he did say that the proposal to deprive schools of a certain amount of rent because they had declared in favour of facilities did not seem right or just. He assured the right hon. Gentleman that these words did bear the construction that it was intended to discourage schools from applying for special facilities. Surely the Commissioners, who were gentlemen of great position and commanded universal respect, might be left to settle the matter without hard and fast instructions of this kind.

MR. BIRRELL

said he was always desirous of keeping the loyal support of the hon. Gentleman, whose fairness he recognised, but he would point out to him that if the Government had not made arrangements in the Bill the, Commissioners would not in such cases I have been able to allow any rent at all. The Commissioners would have said to the trustees—" You must transfer your-self to the local authority on the terms of getting your catechetical and dogmatic instruction twice a week. That is the only way in which you can perform your trust. Therefore you have got to do it." Therefore the Commissioners would not have provided any rent if' this iniquitous Government had not come to t he assistance of the trustees by allowing the Commissioners to do that which the Court of Chancery could not have done — namely, give them a rent. But surely in considering what that rent should be it was not unreasonable that the Commissioners should be allowed to take into account the fact that the school was fulfilling a trust, that religious facilities would be given, and that the children would continue to be instructed in the principles of the denomination, in accordance with the provisions of the trust.

MR. LEIF JONES

wished to know how this provision would affect the schools in which four-fifths of the parents of the children desired facilities. Under Clause 4 the local authority might take over the four-fifths schools or they might refuse to do so. It was true there was an appeal to the Board of Education, but supposing the trustee did not appeal to the Board of Education, was it in the power of the local education authority to take the trustees of that school before the Commissioners and ask them to draw up a scheme? And in that event, could the facilities granted be facilities as under Clause 4?

MR. BIRRELL

If the four-fifths arrangement broke down, it would be in the power of the local authority to take the school before the Commissioners and then the only facilities given would be under Clause 3.

SIR E. CARSON

hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would further consider this matter. He could not see in this clause any provision except that facilities were to be given " in accordance with the provisions of the Act" and he could not see that there could be anything in " accordance with the provisions of the Act" except in regard to four-fifths schools. Why were the facilities therefore limited to Clause 3? Clause 3, moreover, only applied to cases where the local education authority had agreed to take over the school and that case also was covered by the words " in accordance with the provisions of this Act." He would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that the matter should be set right and needed further consideration.

MR. BIRRELL

said lie was always perfectly ready to consider a point. He was told that this provision was perfectly right, but he would look into it.

LORD R. CECIL

said he really did not understand how the clause would work. It was said that the Commissioners were to have regard to the facilities given, but facilities were not given to the school at all unless they were given by the Commissioners themselves. He could not understand how they were to have regard to facilities given by themselves. Then the right hon. Gentleman said that this clause did not apply in some cases to schools coming under Clause 4, but he could not understand how that could be, because under Clause 4 there were two alternative methods of procedure. The original procedure before the Amendment of the right hon Gentleman was that the school should be transferred, and that then, quite independently of the transfer, an application should be made under Clause 4 for facilities. But they had nothing to do with the transfer as the Bill was originally drafted. He agreed that it was suggested that the facilities should form part of the arrangement under this section, but under Clause 4, as originally framed, they were not part of the arrangement. Supposing in a school which would eventually turn out to be a Clause 4 school, negotiations had been entered into for a transfer but had broken down and the local education authority then came to the Commissioners and said, "We want this school." The Commissioners would then have to deal with the matter, and what they wanted was to settle the method of the transfer and how the facilities were to be settled, because no application for facilities, which was to be made by the parents, would have been made up to that point. How were the Commissioners to consider the facilities given in such a case? It was a matter which might not affect the rent, but which might affect many conditions under which the school would be transferred. The fact was that this sub-section I was an extremely difficult one and he did not think the right hon. Gentleman had even now appreciated the difficulty. The animus of it was clear enough. It was to provide for a less rent than the owners would otherwise get. Taking that as the intention, was that a proper arrangement? Here were the owners who were going to make an arrangement and they wished for facilities which would operate for the benefit of the children. The Bill said that under Clause 3 in obtaining the facilities—and this was the effect of the sub-section—the trustees would get less for their school than if facilities were not asked for. In short it would be to the interests of the owners to ask for as little religion for the children as possible. He could not think that that was intended and he ventured to appeal to the Government even at this late stage to leave out the sub-section.

MR. SAMUEL ROBERTS (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

said the effect of the subsection seemed to be that in certain cases schools which were transferred were to be penalised if religious instruction was granted.

MR. R. PEARCE

said he read the clause in this way, that where there had been no agreement made under Clauses 3 or 4 and no arrangement come to at all, then Clause 8 would come into operation. Under Clause 8 the Commissioners were to consider the best mode of giving effect to trusts and frame schemes. Under this section they would consider what were the facilities to be given for religious instruction, and if it I were struck out no facilities at all would be given.

LORD BALCARRES

pointed out that, with the amendment of Clause 4, the instructions given to the Commissioners, and the hint given to the local education authority, the Government practically settled that no transferred voluntary school enjoying religious facilities under Clauses 3 and 4 would receive anything in the nature of a rent. He thought that that was wrong. In order to carry on the trust school teachers would have to be found and paid by the trustees, and there could be nothing more akin to the trust than that payment should be made out of the rent to give the religious teaching for the provision of which the school had been founded.

MR. BIRRELL

I agree; that is the reason why this clause is in these words.

LORD BALCARRES

said in that case he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider the wording of the sub-section in order to remove a genuine doubt as to the meaning of the words. There was one other point. If religious instruction had to be given out of school hours, why penalise the owners and trustees for using that particular hour of the day over which the local education authority had no control? Such a restriction was unjust and indefensible, and that fact alone was sufficient to justify the right hon. Gentleman in reconsidering the whole question.

MR. HARWOOD (Bolton)

trusted the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider the wording of this clause, because there seemed to be at present two separate and distinct views of what it really meant. He thought it should be made clear, because no one reading it would come to any other conclusion than that it was a penalising clause, although the right hon. Gentleman denied that that was so.

SIR PHILIP MAGNUS (London University)

also expressed a hope that the right hon. Gentleman would reconstruct this clause. The Minister for Education had told them that the Commissioners would take into consideration the matters referred to in the sub-paragraph in assessing the rents of these schools under sub-section (b). He took that view and thought the clause was wholly unnecessary and might be left out. Sub-paragraph (ii), however, was of a different character altogether. If subparagraph (iii) had not been put in the Commissioners would not have directed their consideration to the religious facilities provided, in determining the rent to be paid for the schools. But he rose to call attention to a matter of great unfairness that this clause embodied. It was suggested when they were considering sub-paragraph (iii) that there was no necessity to include the word "limited," and the omission of that word had been proposed. He certainly thought if the word " limited'' was put into sub-paragraph (ii), it ought to be put into sub-paragraph (iii), because it must be admitted that the facilities for religious instruction under this sub-paragraph were of a much more limited character than they would have been if the school were held upon the trust. He therefore hoped the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider these sub-sections so as to see whether they could not be left out altogether, or whether at least, the word " limited " could not be inserted in sub-paragraph (iii), so that the Commissioners should recognise the fact in assessing the rent to be paid that the facilities given

AYES.
Acland, Francis Dyke	Ainsworth, John Stirling	Astbury, John Men
Adkins, W. Ryland	Allen, A. Acland (Christchurbn)	Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)
Agnew, Georage William	Armitage. K.	Baker, J. A. (Finsbury, E.)

under this clause for religious instruction were of a very limited character.

MR. CARLILE

wished to say a word or two in reply to the objection raised by the hon. Member for Stoke, who said that this was merely a question of money. If the hon. Member wanted to arouse the strongest and deepest feelings of hon.Members amongst whom he had the privilege of sitting he could not have made an interjection more calculated to arouse that feeling. Their opposition was not a question of money, but one of principle. He hoped the President of the Board of Education would see his way to insert words in this clause drawing the special attention of the three Commissioners to the fact that the so-called facilities under Clauses 3 and 4 were very largely hollow shams which did not give what they proposed to give and what the right hon. Gentleman doubtless thought they gave. As a matter of fact they robbed them of the right of ensuring that the children should be taught by people who believed in the religious instruction they had to impart. The facilities did not include what ought to be included and therefore this sub-paragraph ought to come out. He thought instructions should be given to the Commissioners that they should not allow these hollow shams to be referred —

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I have given the hon. Member a good deal of latitude thinking he was finishing his speech. He must confine himself to the Amendment.

MR. CARLILE

said reference had been made to the terms of the original trusts. With regard to the teachers it would be apparent to all of them that under this section the performance of the original trusts not only would not be carried out but they never could be carried out under this iniquitous Bill.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 256; Noes, 106. (Division List No 198.)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Essex, R, W.	M'Kenna, Reginald
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Eve, Harry Trelawney	M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)
Barker, John	Everett, R. Lacey	M'Micking, Major G.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Faber, G. H. (Boston)	Maddison, Frederick
Barnard, E. B.	Fenwick, Charles	Mallet, Charles E.
Barnes, G. N.	Ferens, T. R.	Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)
Beauchamp, E.	Fiennes, Hon. Eustace	Marnham, F. J.
Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)	Fuller, John Michael F.	Massie, J.
Beck, A. Cecil	Fullerton, Hugh	Micklem, Nathaniel
Bell, Richard	Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford ,S.	Mond, A.
Bellairs, Carlyon	Gibb, James (Harrow)	Money, L. G. Chiozza-
Benn, W.(Tw'rHamlets, St. Geo.	Gill, A. H.	Montagu, E. S.
Bennett, E. N.	Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John	Montgomery. G. H.
Berridge, T. H. D.	Glendinning, R. G.	Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Bethell, J.H. (Essex, Romford)	Goddard, Daniel Ford	Morgan,J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)	Gooch, George Peabody	Morse, L. L.
Billson, Alfred	Grant, Corrie	Murray, James
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	Myer, Horatio
Black, Alexander Wm.(Banff)	Greenwood, Hamar (York)	Napier, T. B.
Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.)	Griffith, Ellis J.	Nicholls, George
Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire,N.E.	Grove, Archibald	Nicholson, CharlesN.(Done'str.)
Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)	Gulland, John W.	Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Brace, William	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Nuttall, Harry
Bramsdon, T. A.	Hall, Frederick	Paul, Herbert
Branch, James	Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)	Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)
Brigg, John	Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.	Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Brodie, H. C.	Hart-Davies, T.	Pearson, W. H.M.(Suflolk, Eye
Brooke, Stopford	Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)	Perks, Robert William
Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh)	Haslam, James (Derbyshire)	Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke
Brunner, Sir J. T. (Cheshire)	Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)	Pollard, Dr.
Bryee, J. A.(Inverness Burghs)	Hazel, Dr. A. E.	Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Price, Robert John.(Norfolk, E.
Buckmaster, Stanley O.	Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.	Priestley, W. E.B. (Bradford, E.
Burns, Rt. Hon. John	Henry, Charles S.	Radford G. H.
Burnyeat, J. D. W.	Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon. S-)	Rainy, A. Holland
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas	Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)	Raphael, Herbert H.
Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.	Higham, John Sharp	Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro')
Byles, William Pollard	Hodge, John	Rees, J. D.
Cameron, Robert	Holden, E. Hopkinson	Rendall, Athelstan
Carr-Gomm, H. W.	Hope, W. Batenmn(SomersetN.	Renton, Major Leslie
Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard K.	Horniman, Emslie John	Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n
Cheetham, John Frederick	Hyde, Clarendon	Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R,	Illingvvorth, Percy H.	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Clarke, C. Goddard	Jackson, R. S.	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Cleland, J. W.	Jacoby, James Alfred	Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradford
Clough, W,	Jardine, Sir J.	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Clynes, J. R.	Jenkirs, J.	Robinson, S.
Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew.W.	Johnson, John (Gateshead)	Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Cobbold, Fchx Thornley	Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Roe, Sir Thomas
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)	Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Rogers, F. E. Newman
Collins, Sir W. J. (S. Pancras, W	Jowett, F. W.	Rowlands, J.
Corbett, CH(Sussex, E.Grinst'd)	Kearley, Hudson E.	Runciman, Walter
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.	Kekewich, Sir George	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Cory, Clifford John	King, Alfred John (Knutsford)	Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Cotton, Sir H. J. S.	Laidlaw, Robert	Schwann, SirC. E. (Manchester
Cowan, W. H.	Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster	Scott, A.H. (AshtonunderLyne)
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)	Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)	Sears, J. E.
Cremer, William Randal	Lambert, George	Seaverns, J. H.
Crosfleld, A. H.	Lamont, Norman	Shackleton, David James
Davies, David(MontgomeryCo.	Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.)	Shipman. Dr. John G
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)	Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington	Silcock, Thomas Ball
Davies, Timothy (Fulham)	Lehmann, R. C.	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)	Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral	Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.	Levy, Maurice	Soares, Ernest J.
Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras, N.	Lewis, John Herbert	Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)
Dobson, Thomas W.	Lough, Thomas	Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness	Lupton, Arnold	Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)	Luttrell, Hugh Fownes	Strachey, Sir Edward
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)	Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)	Macdonald, J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs	Strauss, E. A- (Abingdon)
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)	Maclean, Donald	Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Elibank, Master of	M'Callum, John M.	Summerbell, T.
Ellis, Rt. Hn. John Edward	M'Crae, George

Taylor, John W. (Durham)	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)	Wills, Arthur Walters
Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)	Wason, Jn. Cathcart (Orkney)	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)	Waterlow, D. S.	Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Thompson, J. W.H.(Somerset, E	Wedgwood, Josiah C.	Wilson, W.T. (Westhoughton
Torrance, Sir A. M.	White, J.D. (Dumbartonshire)	Winfrev, R.
Toulmin, George	White, Luke (York, E.R.)	Wodehouse, Lord(NorfolkMid)
Vivian, Henry	Whitehead, Rowland	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)	Whiteley, J. H. (Halifax)
Wallace, Robert	Wiles, Thomas	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent	Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Wardle, George J.	Williams, LIewelyn(Carm'rth'n

NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork. N. E.)	Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. SirAlex. F	Flavin, Michael Joseph	O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Forster, Henry William	O'Hare, Patrick
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Ashley, W. W-	Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)	O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.
Balcarres, Lord	Ginnell, L.	O'Malley, William
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(CityLond.)	Haddock, George R.	O'Mara, James
Bertram, Julius	Halpin, J.	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Bignold, Sir Arthur	Hardy, Laurenee(Kent, Ashford	O'Shee, James John
Blake, Edward	Hayden, John Patrick	Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington
Boland, John	Hazleton, Richard	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bowles, G. Stewart	Helmsley, Viscount	Power, Patrick Joseph
Bridgeman, W. Clive	Hill, Sir Clement(Shrewsbury)	Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne
Brotherton, Edward Allen	Hogan, Michael	Rawlinson, JohnFrederickPeel
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Houston, Sir Robert Paterson	Redmond, John E.(Waterford)
Burke, E. Haviland-	Hunt, Rowland	Redmond, William (Clare)
Butcher. Samuel Henry	Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir JohnH.	Roberts, S.(Shettield, Eeclesall)
Carlile, E. Hildred	Kennedy, Vincent Paul	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Kilbride, Denis	Seddon, J.
Cave, George	King, Sir HenrySeymour (Hull)	Sullivan, Donal
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)	Law, AndrewBonar (Dulwich)	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.
Clancy. John Joseph	Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)	Thomson, W.Mitchell- (Lanark
Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisliam)	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S.)	Valentia, Viscount
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Lundon, W.	Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Courthopo, G. Loyd	Macpherson, J. T.	Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Craik, Sir Henry	MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.	White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Grean, Eugene	M'Kean, John	Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Cullinan, J.	M'Killop, W.	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Delany, William	Magnus, Sir Philip	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Devlin, CharlesRamsay(Galw'y	Meagher, Michael	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Dolan, Charles Joseph	Middlemore, JohnThrogmort'n	Young, Samuel
Donelan, Captain A.	Mooney, J. J.	Younger, George
Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-	Murphy, John
Duffy, William J.	Nicholson, Wm. G. (PetersField)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Faber, George Denison (York)	Nolan, Joseph	Evelyn Cecil and Mr. Lane-
Fell, Arthur	O' Brien, Kendal(Tipperary, Mid	Fox.
Field, William	O' Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

MR. WYNDHAM (Dover)

moved to amend the sub-section by inserting the words " limited nature of the," so that the Commissioners should be directed to have regard to " the limited nature of the facilities given therein for special religious instruction." The Minister for Education had pointed out that the use of the school by the local authority was limited, and he had inserted the word " limited " in sub-paragraph (ii) of this clause. The facilities given for religious instruction were limited also, and the words ought to be inserted because the limitations were similar in each case. The local authority enjoyed the use of the schools upon certain days for certain hours, and the owners had the use of them on a fewer number of days, but there was a further limitation that they had to pay for the teacher out of their own funds, and no teacher in the school could give the instruction. The limitations in the sub-paragraph affecting these facilities were of a far more drastic character. The Minister for Education felt it necessary to insert the word " limited " when dealing with the user of the school, and why should he resist the insertion of the word in this case?

MR. BIRRELL

said that it was perfectly clear what the facilities were, and therefore the application of any qualifying word was wholly unnecessary. He did not attach much importance to the insertion of the word " limited " in sub-paragraph (ii), and he did not think that it would be right to apply the word to the facilities in this case. The facilities given therein were in the schoolhouse, and the facilities were for special religious instruction. Those were the facilities given and contemplated by the Act. The words proposed were quite unnecessary because they knew what the facilities were, and to insert those words would be surplusage wholly unnecessary and would not convey a single idea which the Commissioners were not already fully possessed of.

MR. BLAKE (Longford, S.)

thought the Amendment was utterly useless and inadequate. It was not the limited facilities they now had to consider, but the facilities. " Limited " did not appear to be either truthful or applicable in reference to its collocation.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said that if the word " limited " were admissible in the first sub-paragraph it was equally applicable in the second. The limitation in the one case was intimately associated with

AYES.
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington)
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Fell, Arthur	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Ashley, W. W.	Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	Rasch, Sir Frederick Carne
Balcarres, Lord	Forster, Henry William	Rawlinson, J. Frederick Peel
Balfour, RtHnA. J.(CityLond.)	Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)	Roberts, S. (Sheffield Ecclesall
Bignold, Sir Arthur	Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Bowles, G. Stewart	Haddock, George R.	Thomson, W. Mitchcll-(Lanark)
Bridgeman, W. Clive	Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford	Turnour, Viscount
Brotherton, Edward Allen	Helmsley, Viscount	Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)	Williams, Col R. (Dorset, W.)
Carlile, E. Hildred	Houston, Robert Paterson	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Cave, George	Hunt, Rowland	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)	Lane-Fox, G. R.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.
Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)	Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)
Courthope, G. Loyd	Magnus, Sir Philip
Craik, Sir Henry	Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton

NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)	Astbury, John Meir	Barnard, E. B.
Acland, Francis Dyke	Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Barnes, G. N
Adkins, W. Ryland	Baker, JosephA.(Finsbury, E.)	Beale, W. P.
Agnew, George William	Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Beaucharap, E.
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)	Barker, John	Beck. A, Cecil
Armitage, R.	Barlow, Percy (Bedford	Bell, Richard

the limitation in the other. He was astonished at the argument used by the right hon. Gentleman. He stated that the word " limited " in the previous paragraph was useless but that it was there. But how did the word get into that paragraph? It did not drop into it like flies in the amber. Its existence in the clause was not part of the order of nature. If it was there it was there because the draftsman acting under instructions put it there. Why should the word appear in one paragraph and not in the other? The facilities were as limited as the user. The voluntary schools enjoyed the full right of religious instruction. The Bill came down upon them and declared that they would lose that altogether and they only got it back in the form of a reduced right under the title of facilities out of school hours. Surely the limitation was as necessary in the one case as in the other. The less facilities there were the less would be the charge for the payment of the teacher which they would have to pay out of the rent which they got for the limited user.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 47; Noes 298. (Division List No. 199.)

Bellairs, Carlyon	Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward	Levy, Maurice
Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.	Eve, Harry Trelawney	Lewis, John Herbert
Bennett, E. N.	Everett, R. Lacey	Lough, Thomas
Berridge, T. H. D.	Faber, G. H. (Boston)	Lundon, W.
Bertram, Julius	Fenwick, Charles	Lupton, Arnold
Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford	Ferens, T. R.	Luttrell, Hugh Fownes
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)	Field William	Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Billson, Alfred	Fiennes, Hon. Eustace	Macdonald, J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Flavin, Michael Joseph	Maclean, Donald
Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff)	Flynn, James Christopher	Macpherson, J. T.
Black, ArthurW.(Bedfordshire)	Fuller, John Michael F.	Mac V'eagh, Jeremiah (Down, S-
Blake, Edward	Fullerton, Hugh	M'Callum, JohnM.
Boland, John	Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford, S.	M'Crae, George
Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)	Gibb, James (Harrow)	M'Kean, John
Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)	Gill, A. H.	M'Kenna, Reginald
Brace, William	Ginnell, L.	M'Killop, W.
Bramsdon, T. A.	Glendinning, R. G.	M'Micking, Major G.
Branch, James	Goddard, Daniel Ford	Maddison, Frederick
Brigg, John	Gooch, George Peabody	Mallett, Charles E.
Brodie, H. C.	Grant, Corrie	Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)
Brooke, Stopford	Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	Marnham, F. J.
Brunner. J.F.L.(Lanes., Leigh)	Greenwood, Hamar (York)	Massie, J.
Brunner, Sir JohnT.(Cheshire)	Grove, Archibald	Meagher, Michael
Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs)	Gulland, John W.	Micklem, Nathaniel
Buckmaster, Stanley 0.	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Mond, A.
Burke, E. Haviland-	Hall, Frederick	Montagu, E. S.
Burns, Rt. Hon. John	Halpin, J.	Montgomery, H. G.
Burnyeat, J. D. W.	Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)	Mooney, J. J.
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas	Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)	Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Chas.	Hart-Davies, T.	Morse, L. L.
Byles, William Pollard	Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)	Murphy, John
Cameron, Robert	Harwood, George	Murray, James
Carr-Gomm, H. W.	Haslam, James (Derbyshire)	Myer, Horatio
Causton, Rt. Hn. RichardKnight	Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)	Napier, T. B.
Cheetham, John Frederick	Hayden, John Patrick	Nicholls, George
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.	Hazel, Dr. A. E.	Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster
Clancy, John Joseph	Hazleton, Richard	Nolan, Joseph
Clarke, C. Goddard	Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Norman, Henry
Cleland, J. W.	Henderson, J.M. (Aberdeen, W.)	Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Clough, W.	Henry, Charles S.	Nuttall, Harry
Clynes, J. R.	Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon., S.)	0' Brien, Kendal (Tipporary Mid
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)	Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Collins, SirWm. J.(S. Pancras, W.	Higharu, John Sharp	O'Connor, James (VVicklow, W.)
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Hodge, John	O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Corbett, CH.(Sussex, E. Grinstd	Hogan, Michael	O'Hare, Patrick
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.	Holden, E. Hopkinson	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Cory, Clifford John	Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N)	O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N
Cotton, Sir H. J. S.	Horniman, Emslie John	O'Malley, William
Cowan, W. H.	Hyde, Clarendon	O'Mara, James
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)	Illingworth, Percy H.	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Crean, Eugene	Jackson, R. S.	O'Shee, James John
Cremer, William Randal	Jacoby, James Alfred	Paul, Herbert
Crosfield, A. H.	Jardine, Sir J.	Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)
Cullinan, J.	Jenkins, J.	Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Davies, David(Montgomery Co.	Johnson, John (Gateshead)	Pearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye)
Da vies, Ellis William (Eifion)	Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke
Davies, Timothy (Fulham)	Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Pollard, Dr.
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)	Jowett, F. W.	Power, Patrick Joseph
Delany, William	Kekewich, Sir George	Price, C.E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway	Kennedy, Vincent Paul	Price, RobertJohn(Norfolk, E.)
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.	Kilbride, Denis	Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)
Dickinson, W.H. (St. Pancras, N.	King, Alfred John (Knutsford)	Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.
Dobson, Thomas W.	King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)	Radford, G. H.
Dolan, Charles Joseph	Laidlaw, Robert	Rainy, A. Holland
Donelan, Captain A.	Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)	Raphael. Herbert H.
Duffy, William J.	Lambert, George	Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro')
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness	Lamont, Norman	Redmond, John E.(Waterford)
Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)	Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)	Redmond, William (Clare)
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)	Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.	Rees, J. D.
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)	Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington)	Rendall, Athelstan
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)	Lehmann, R. C.	Ren ton, Major Leslie
Ellibank, Master of	Lever, W.H.(Cheshire, Wirral)	Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'm't'n

Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln)	Stewart, Halley (Greenock)	Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)	Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire);
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)	Strachey, Sir Edward	White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd	Straus, B. S. (Mile End)	White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)	Whitehead, Rowland
Robinson, S.	Stuart, James (Sunderland)	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Robson, Sir William Snowdon	Sullivan, Donal	Wiles, Thomas
Rogers, F. E. Newman	Summerbell, T.	Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Rowlands, J.	Taylor, John W. (Durham)	Williams, Llewelyn(C'r'arth'n.
Runciman, Walter	Taylor, Theodore C (Radclifie)	Wills, Arthur Walters
Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)	Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E.	Wilson, P. W. (S. Pancras, S.)
Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)	Torrance, Sir A. M.	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughtou)
Scott, A.H.(Ashton-und.-Lyne)	Toulmin, George	Winfrey, R.
Sears, J. E.	Vivian, Henry	Wodehouse, Lord(NorfolkMid)
Seaverns, J. H.	Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Shackleton, David James	Wallace, Robert	Young, Samuel
Shipman, Dr. John G.	Ward, J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Silcock, Thomas Ball	Wardle, George J.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie	Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)
Soares, Ernest J.	Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney)
Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)	Waterlow, D. S.

MR. BRIDGEMAN,

on behalf of the noble Lord the member for East Marylebone, moved to insert the words, "Provided that, if required by the owners of the schoolhouse, any such scheme shall provide for affording facilities for religious instruction of a special character under Section 3 of this Act, and in cases satisfying the conditions of Section 4 for affording facilities under that section." The object of this was to carry out the intention of the President of the Board of Education expressed in discussion on Clause 3, when he said he would be ready to make it perfectly plain that if the local authority wanted the school and the trustees wanted facilities, then facilities there should be. As sub-paragraph (iii) stood it seemed impossible to make out the meaning of " facilities given therein," because facilities would not be given until this decision was arrived at. Unless the proposed words were inserted he really failed to see how the right hon. Gentleman could carry out the undertaking he had given.

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 40, after the word ' considered,' to insert the words 'provided that, if required by the owners of the schoolhouse, any such scheme shall provide for affording facilities for religious instruction of a special character under Section 3 of this Act, and in cases satisfying the conditions of Section 4 for affording facilities under that section.' "—(Mr. Bridgeman.)

MR. BIRRELL

said that under Clause 3 agreed facilities could be made a condition of the scheme, and a special pro- vision inserted to that effect, therefore it seemed to him the matter did not remain open for consideration. Having regard to the operation of Clause 4 as amended, Clause 8 might require a little readjustment in language in reference to what was meant by facilities. He adhered to what he had already said: the four-fifths facilities being based on the wishes of parents were not the facilities contemplated within Clause 8. He did not think, having regard to the way Clause 3 stood, this question really arose.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

reminded the right hon. Gentleman that Clause 3 referred to an arrangement when facilities were to be granted, but Clause 8 rested on the supposition that the negotiations for arrangement had broken down, and the local authorities and trustees could not come to terms. The Commission would then have to take up the matter and deal with it de novo. It was really important to insert words to secure that the negotiations should be taken up by the Commission at the point where they had broken down with the; local education authority.

MR. CAVE

said that if the facilities were refused there should be an appeal to some authority to compel them to be given; but under Clause 8 there was no such appeal, and no compulsion whatever.

MR. BIRRELL

said that the facilities might be demanded by the owner.

MR. CAVE

said he could not find in Clause; 8 any words which would compel the Commissioners to grant the facilities under Clause 3 if they were demanded by the owner or owners. There should be something of that kind in this clause, otherwise they would get back to the old gap. Apart from that, were they to understand that the Commissioners could not grant in their schemes the facilities provided in Clause 4?

MR. BIRRELL

said he had stated that many times. The facilities granted in Clause 4 would not come under the purview of the Commissioners.

LORD BALCARRES

said he would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to accept this Amendment. Its substance, it seemed to him, was perfectly sound in view of the decided pledges given to the House in answer to the right hon. Member for South Dublin.

MR. BIRRELL

said that he had amended Clause 3.

LORD BALCARRES

said that the right hon. Gentleman had given a pledge to fill up this particular gap, and he thought that he should in common sequence put in this Amendment. He attached great importance to the matter, because Clause 3 facilities would be of greater moment than Clause 8 facilities. A great majority of the Church of England schools could not come in under Clause 4. Therefore, they were thrown back on Clause 3 for the facilities which the Church of England required for their work under the trust. The right hon. Gentleman could not be surprised that they should press him to make it clear that those facilities were to be made a reality. If there was a corresponding Amendment in Clause 8 to that in Clause 3 it would then be clear that the Commissioners were bound to make the facilities under Clause 3 mandatory if they were demanded by the owners.

MR. HERBERT (Buckinghamshire, Wycombe)

said that the Amendment was totally unnecessary. If the owners made it a condition of any scheme that the facilities given in Clause 3 should be granted, then the Commissioners would be bound to make those facilities part of the scheme.

MR. BRIDGEMAN

said he could not see in reading Clause 3 that the matter was so clear. There was nothing about the owners there at all. It entirely depended upon the decision of the Commissioners whether there was to be a scheme or not.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said he would like the right hon. Gentleman to say whether, if the owners or trustees asked for facilities under Clause 3, the Commission was bound to give them.

MR. BIRRELL

Yes; if the owners or trustees require it as part of the scheme the Commissioners are bound to give them.

LORD BALCARRES

If it is part of the scheme; but if it is part of the scheme which the local education authority refuses to accept, and consequently the trust has to be considered under Clause 8, have the owners then any right to place their demands before the Commissioners, and have the Commissioners any power to order that Clause 3 facilities shall be given?

MR. BIRRELL

Certainly.

MR. BRIDGEMAN

With that assurance I will withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD BALCARRES

moved to add to the clause, "Provided that in no case shall the rent fixed by a scheme be less than the amount which will be produced by a charge of 5s. per head of average attendance," in order to elicit from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education what was in the mind of the Government as to the amount of rent to be paid. The figure he had put in the Amendment was a token figure; but after all 5 per cent, on the cost of accommodation per child, including cost of site and conveyance of land, was not excessive. In Lancashire the cost per child accommodated ranged from £12 to £15. The Chancellor of the Duchy had said that the sum of money provided by Clause 12 in the Bill would be paid to denominational schools for rent and repairs and he thought the right hon. Gentleman said that 2s. per child was a fair amount to pay for maintenance. He should like to know whether that was considered to be the rent payable under this arrangement.

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 40, after the word ' considered ' to add the words ' provided that in no case shall the rent fixed by a scheme he less than the amount which will be produced by a charge of 5s. per head on average attendance.' " —(Lord Balcarres.)

Question proposed " That those words be there added."

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. LOUGH,) Islington, W.

said it was quite impossible for the Government to accept these or any similar words. They would impose a quite unreasonable fetter on the Commissioners, and it would be extremely foolish on the part of the Government to do so at this stage. He did not desire to go into questions of finance, because he did not think this was the proper place to do so. A statement had been published in newspapers which dealt with this question.

LORD BALCARRES

said he had no desire to press the Amendment, but he did think that they were entitled to some more succinct reply than they had received from the hon. Member. No doubt there had been a long statement in Saturday's newspapers written by the President of the Board of Education, but all he could gather from it was that the Minister for Education said that educational finance was in a complete muddle and he hoped to settle it next year. It was no use saying that a satisfactory answer was given in the newspapers; it was much more important that a satisfactory answer should be given to the Committee at that moment.

SIR F. BANBURY (City of London)

said in regard to Clause 12 he wished to point out that it only provided for the payment of a grant of £1,000,000. That clause had nothing to do with rent, and simply provided that £1,000,000 should be advanced. It was impossible to say whether this Amendment, therefore, could be dealt with on that clause; he was not sure that it would then be in order.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

wished to call the attention of the Committee to the relevancy of this Amendment. The clause provided that the Commission should make schemes with respect to voluntary school buildings held under trust. It went on to give a great many directions to the Commission, some of which appeared to be important and some of which were admittedly unimportant. Further on the Bill proposed to provide for a million of money, which was to be given, he supposed, for rent and repairs. Under the circumstances it might be that the Government were unable to give them any answer, but he thought the request of his hon. friend was a reasonable one. Having regard to the variety of instructions which they had already given to the Commission it was not unreasonable that they should give directions as to the distribution of the £1,000,000.

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

said the question of the £1,000,000 had nothing to do with this clause, which merely dealt with the power to obtain schemes.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said that of course he bowed to the ruling of the Chair, but having regard to the tenor of the Bill he thought the Commissioners should have some indication as to the line they were to take as to the payments for rent in return for the use of the schools.

SIR W. ROBSON

said that the Government were not anxious to take more than was just, and he could imagine no worse kind of Amendment than that which they were now discussing. No form of instruction could be more undesirable than that which fixed either a maximum or a minimum. To take such a course might inflict great hardship upon voluntary schools, and it was not the kind of direction that the Government desired to give.

SIR F. BANBURY

thought the answer of the Solicitor-General was a good one, but said it was different from that which was given by the Minister for Education. If the sum of five shillings was fixed it would bind the Commissioners, who might desire to give more. He suggested the withdrawal of the Amendment.

LORD BALCARRES

asked leave to withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. CAVE (Surrey, Kingston)

moved an Amendment to provide that the schemes of the Commission— shall be subject to the like conditions as to publication and approval by His Majesty in Council as a scheme made by the Board of Education under the Endowed Schools Acts and subject thereto. He said that the object of the Amendment was that schemes made under this Act should be subject to the same provision as to publication and approval as schemes made under the existing Acts. They had no objection to the constitution of the Commission, but he did not think that any body of men should be freed from all control whatever, and no harm would be done if the procedure laid down by the Endowed Schools Acts were applied to these Commissioners. It was an extraordinary thing that in this Bill every one of the precautions to which they were accustomed in other Acts of Parliament was omitted. In every other case, including the Endowed Schools Acts, provision was made for the publication of the schemes, and time was given for objection. Under this Bill there was nothing of the kind. A scheme made by the Commissioners became operative at once, without the least chance being given for objection or appeal. If hon. Members went through the Bill from beginning to end, they would find that all the old precautions were omitted. He had not moved his Amendment on the Paper which provided that the Commission should not make any such scheme with respect to any schoolhouse of which the trusts had been declared less than thirty years before the passing of this Act except with the consent of the owners of the schoolhouse, but he felt bound to move the Amendment which he now brought forward.

Amendment proposed— In page 6, line 1, after the word ' Commission ' to insert the words ' shall be subject to the like conditions as to publication and approval by His Majesty in Council as a scheme made by the Board of Education under the Endowed Schools Act, but subject thereto.'"—(Mr. Cave.)

Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."

SIR W. ROBSON

thought his hon. and learned friend could hardly have considered the effect of his Amendment upon the procedure of the Commission. It was of the highest importance that their procedure should be rapid, and that was the reason why the idea of the Commission was adopted at all. It was a very strong Commission, and it was one from which one could safely say that no appeal was necessary. The object of the Government being to secure rapidity, it was not unreasonable to desire that the decisions of the Commission should be final. For that reason the Government stood by the provisions of the Bill and could not accept the Amendment.

MR. BRIDGEMAN

supported the Amendment. Rapidity had been urged as the great object to be aimed at. Considering the very short time the Commission would give to the decision of these questions in view of the number of cases, it was extremely probable they would make some mistakes, and therefore an appeal was necessary. Earlier in this clause they tried to obtain an extension of the date for voluntary agreements, and that having been refused it was still more important that there should be an appeal owing to the greater and heavier work which the Commissioners had to do. If there was this enormous number of schemes to make and no time to make them in—if rapidity was to be the one object that the Commissioners were to have in view—it was quite certain that there would be a considerable number of mistakes, and there would have to be some form of appeal. He therefore thought the Government ought either to accept the Amendment of his hon. friend or the one that stood a little lower down on the Paper in his name.

MR. HERBERT (Buckinghamshire, Wycombe)

thought that if they had had no experience in this matter there might have been a good deal to be said for the Amendment, but fortunately they were not without some experience. The hon. Member had pointed out that the Charitable Trusts Act and the other Acts he had referred to had always contained a provision for an appeal. He himself was so impressed by what had been said in this regard on previous occasions that he had asked the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education for a return of the number of appeals that had been lodged under these various Acts. The return showed the number to be twenty-six, of which only six had resulted in the alteration of the scheme. The appeals, therefore, were quite a negligible quantity, and having regard to the confidence the Committee had in the Commissioners he thought this matter might safely be left in their hands. It must not be forgotten that the schemes made under previous Acts had been made without argument on behalf of the persons concerned, while the present Commission would give the fullest opportunity of being heard to those whoso interests were affected. Seeing, therefore, that appeals had been so few when political passions were not aroused, and bearing in mind the possibility of the Act being made inoperative by an enormous number of appeals if trustees desired for political reasons to block its progress, he thought it would not be wise to give a right of appeal. It seemed to him that although, theoretically, it might be foolish not to have some appeal, looking at the matter in the light of experience it was utterly unnecessary.

SIR FREDERICK BANBURY

said the remarks of the hon. Member for Wycombe were, to his mind, a strong argument in favour of an appeal. His argument shortly was that there should not be an appeal because it was so seldom required; but that made it all the more necessary that there should be a court of appeal, in order to prevent the least chance of there being anything in the nature of a miscarriage of justice. The hon. and learned Solicitor-General said the Commissioners had met with the general approval of the Committee, but he forgot that those Commissioners would not live for ever, and that others would have to be appointed, and they might not enjoy the confidence of this House in the same way as these three gentlemen did. He believed, especially on the Liberal side of the House, there had been a strong argument not for diminishing courts of appeal but for increasing them. There had been a question of a criminal court of appeal and other courts of appeal, all of which had received strong support from the opposite side of the House. But here they had a Bill which was going to affect the whole of the country and was going to create a sort of Star Chamber, and the Radical Party were going to allow the Star Chamber to be created. He hoped his hon. friend would go to a division, in which case he would receive the support not only of all hon. Members on the Unionist but of many hon. Members on the Radical side of the House.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said that the main reason advanced for declining to accede to this Amendment was that it was essential there should be rapidity. They had heard of the " happy despatch," and that appeared to be the method the Solicitor-General proposed to adopt with regard to the voluntary schools of the country, 14.000 in number. He had, however, no quarrel with rapidity if it could be combined with justice. But it was surely expedient that every precaution should be taken that the Party brought before the tribunal should be assured of the justice of that tribunal. The Bill contained no provision whatever for the alteration or amendment of a scheme made by the Commission. There was nothing to suggest that a scheme once made could ever be altered. A scheme was made by the Commission and after a certain date the Commission disappeared and no arrangement was made for anybody to take its place, whereas in the area of the school, with its shifting population, the whole of the conditions might be altered in five years. He desired, with the Solicitor-General, that if this Bill came into operation it should come into operation with promptitude, but he also desired that it should come in with the goodwill of the parties concerned, and that would not be the case if there was any suggestion that the action of the Commission was hasty and illadvised, or that a decision once given could neither be recousidered nor amended.

SIR W. ROBSON

said the point of allowing a review of a scheme not by way of appeal from the decision of the Commission, but a review at a later date rendered necessary by a change in circumstances, was engaging the attention of the Minister for Education.

MR. CAVE

said that his Amendment did not provide for an appeal. Its only effect was to give time for consideration and objections. The clause provided no such opportunity, and that being so he must press the Amendment to a division.

MR. EVELYN CECIL

said he did not know quite where his Amendment, requiring schemes to be laid on the Table of both Houses for six weeks, stood with regard to this Amendment. It might be that they were the same in effect although they were quite different with regard to the working. However that might be it was not right that a new civil court should be set up without a court of appeal to revise its decisions. Under the law there was no civil court from which there was no appeal. They were now setting up a new jurisdiction— a new civil court without setting up a court of appeal. If the Government said at this stage of the Bill that there should not be a court of appeal there was a good deal more reason for calling this court a Star Chamber than there appeared to be at first. There ought to be an appeal. In the analagous case of the Charity Commissioners the schemes were laid upon the Table of both Houses, and the same thing

AYES.
Abraham, William(Cork, N.E.)	Banner, John S. Hannood-	Butcher, Samuel Henry
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)	Carlile, E. Hildred
Anstruther-Gray, Major	Bignold, Sir Arthur	Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Boland, John	Cave, George
Arnold-Forster, RtHnHughO.	Bowles, G. Stewart	Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)
Ashley, W. W.	Bridgeman, W. Clive	Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)
Balearros, Lord	Brotherton, Edward Allen	Clancy, John Joseph
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J. (CityLond.	Burdett-Coutts, W.	Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Burke, E. Hiiviland-	Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

was done in the case of provisional orders, and there ought not to be a new jurisdiction set up without some chance being given to revise its decisions These schemes ought certainly to b submitted to Parliament.

MR. PERKS

thought there was great force in the suggestion that the schemes should be allowed to lie on the Table of the House, and he came to the conclusion on quite different grounds from those which influenced the hon. Member for Aston Manor. He did not wish to say anything derogatory to the Commission, but at the same time he had to express his regret that among all the experts upon this question it had not been possible for the right hon. Gentleman to find a Nonconformist or a Member of the Liberal Party to serve as one of the Commissioners. Although the Government had no doubt been guided by the desire to find the best men, at the same time it was quite within the bounds of possibility to find Gentlemen for these very important posts who might have given perhaps, greater confidence to the Nonconformists of the country, and also to some Members of the Liberal Party. Therefore, he thought, having in view the extraordinary results that did sometimes arise in appointing to important positions men who had not altogether been tried, it was import that the House should have the opportunity from time to time in years to come to review some of the decisions, if they thought proper, of the Commissioners under the extraordinary powers with which they had been endowed under his Bill.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 116; Noes, 286. (Divisional List No. 200.)

Condon, Thomas Joseph	Hill. Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)	O'Kelly, James(Roscornmon, N
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)	Hogan, Michael	O'Malley, William
Courthope, G. Loyd	Houston, Robert Pateraon	O'Mara, James
Craik, Sir Henry	Hunt, Rowland	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Crean, Eugene	Kennedy, Vincent Paul	O'Shee, James John
Cullinan, J.	Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W	Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington
Delany, William	Kilbride, Denis	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway	King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)	Power, Patrick Joseph
Dolan, Charles Joseph	Lane-Fox, G. R.	Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne
Donelan, Captain A.	Law, Hugh A. (Donegal W.)	Rawlinson, John Frederick P.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin,S)	Ridmond, John E. (Waterfora
Du Cros, Harvey	Lundon, W.	Redrrond, William (Clare)
Duffy, William J.	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall
Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan	Macpherson, J. T.	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Fell, Arthur	MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.	Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Field, William	M'Kean, John	Starkey, John R.
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	M'Killop, W.	Sullivan, Donal
Flavin, Michael Joseph	Magnus, Sir Philip	Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)
Flyun, James Christopher	Marks, H. H. (Kent)	Turnour, Viscount
Forster, Henry William	Mason, James F. (Windsor)	Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)	Meagher, Michael	White, Patrick (Meath, N.)
Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)	Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton	Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Ginnell, L.	Mooney, J. J.	Willoughby, de Eresby Lord
Haddock, George R.	Murphy. John	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Halpin, J.	Nolan Joseph	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Hardy, Laurenee(Kent, Ashf'rd	O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary, Mid	Young, Samuel
Hay, Hon. Claude George	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)	Younger, George
Hay den, John Patrick	O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Hazleton, Richard	O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.
Helmsley, Viscount	O'Hare, Patrick
Hervey, F.W.F(BuryS, Edm'ds	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

NOES.
Acland, Francis Dyke	Brigg, John	Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh
Adkins, W. Ryland	Bright, J. A.	Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N.
Agnew, George William	Brocklehurst, W. D.	Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Brodie, H. C.	Dobson, Thomas W.
Alden, Percy	Brooke, Stopford	Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)	Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)	Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)
Armitage, R.	Brunner, SirJohnT.(Cheshire)	Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)
Asquith, Rt. Hn. HerbertHenry	Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)	Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)
Astbury, John Meir	Buckmastor, Stanley O.	Edwards, Frank (Radnor)
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Burns, Rt. Hon. John	Elibank, Master of
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)	Burnyeat, J. D. W.	Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas	Eve, Harry Trelawney
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles	Everett, R. Lacey
Barker, John	Byles, William Pollard	Faber, G. H. (Boston)
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Cameron, Robert	Fenwick, Charles
Barnard, E. B.	Carr-Gomm, H. W.	Fereng, T. R.
Barnes, G. N.	Causton. Rt. Hn. RichardKnight	Fiennes. Hon. Eustace
Beale, W. P.	Cheetham, John Frederick	Fuller, John Michael F.
Beauchamp, E.	Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.	Fullerton, Hugh
Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)	Clarke, C. Goddard	Gill, A. H.
Bock, A. Cecil	Cleland. J. W.	Gladstone, Rt. Hn. HerbertJohn
Bell, Richard	Clough, W.	Glendinning, R. G.
Bellairs, Carlyon	Clynes. J. R.	Goddard, Daniel Ford
Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R.	Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)	Gooch, George Peabody
Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets,S.Geo.	Cobbold, Felix Thornley	Grant, Corrie
Bennett, E. N.	Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)	Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)
Berridge, T. H. D.	Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras, W	Greenwood, Hamar (York)
Bertram, Julius	Corbett.CH (Sussex, E. Grinst'd)	Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward
Bethell, J.H. (Essex, Romford)	Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.	Griffith, Ellis J.
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)	Cory, Clifford John	Grove, Archibald
Billson, Alfred	Cotton, Sir H. J. S.	Gulland, John W.
Black, Alexander Win. (Banff)	Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Black, ArthurW.(Bedfordshire	Cremer, William Randal	Hall, Frederick
Bolton, T.D. (Derbyshire, N.E.)	Crosfield, A. H.	Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)
Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)	Davies, David(MontgomeryCo.	Harms worth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)
Brace, William	Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)	Hart-Davies, T.
Bramsdon, T. A.	Davies, Timothy (Fulham)	Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
Branch, James	Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)	Harwood, George

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)	Masterman, C. F. G.	Seaverns J. H.
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)	Micklem, Nathamel	Shackleton, David .James
Hazel, Dr. A. E.	Molteno, Percy Alport	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Hedges, A. Paget	Mond, A.	Sliipman, Dr. John G.
Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Money, L. G. Chiozza	Silcock, Thomas Ball
Henderson, J. M (Aberdeen, W.)	Montagu, E. S.	Sloan, Thomas Henry
Henry, Charles S.	Montgomery, H. H.	Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)	Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Snowden, P.
Herbert, T. Arnold (Wyeombe	Morgan, J Lloyd (Carmarthen)	Soares, Ernest J.
Higham, John Sharp	Morrell, Philip	Spicer, Albert
Hobart, Sir Robert	Morse, L. L.	Stanley, Hn. A Lyulph (Chesh)
Hobhouse, Charles E. H.	Murray, James	Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Hodge, John	Myer, Horatio	Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Holden, E. Hopkinson	Napier, T. B.	Strachey, Sir Edward
Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N)	Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)	Straus, B. S. (Mile End.)
Horniman, Emslie John	Nicholls, George	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey	Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r	Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Hyde, Clarendon	Norman, Henry	Summerbell, T.
Illingworth, Percy H.	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Isaacs, Rufus Daniel	Nuttall, Harry	Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Jackson, R. S.	Paul, Herbert	Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)
Jacoby, James Alfred	Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Lock)	Tennant,Sir Edward (Salisbury
Jardine, Sir J.	Pearce, William (Limehouse)	Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Jenkins, J.	Pearson, W.H.M.(Suffolk, Eye)	Thomas, SirA. (Glamorgan, E.)
Johnson, John (Gateshead)	Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)	Thomasson, Franklin
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Philipps. J Wynford(Pembroke	Thompson, J. W.H(Somerset, E.
Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)	Torrance, A. M.
Kearley, Hudson E.	Pollard, Dr.	Toulmin, George
Kekewich, Sir George	Price, C.E. (Edinburgh, Central)	Vivian, Henry
King, Alfred John(Knutsford)	Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.)	Walker, H. De E. (Leicester)
Laidlaw, Robert	Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)	Wallace, Robert
Lamb, Edmund G. (Leorainster	Priestley, W.E.B. (Bradford, E.	Walsh, Stephen
Lamb, Ernest H.(Rochester)	Radford, G. H.	Walters, John Tudor
Lambert, George	Rainy, A. Holland	Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Lamont, Norman	Raphael, Herbert H.	Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent
Lea, HughCecil (St. Pancras, E.)	Rea, Russell (Gloucester)	Wardle, George J.
Leese, SirJoseph F. (Accrington	Roa, Walter Russell (Scarboro'	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Lohmann, R. C.	Rees, J. D.	Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney)
Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)	Rendall, Athelstan	Waterlow, D. S.
Lever, W. H.(Cheshire, Wirral)	Renton, Major Leslie	Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Levy, Maurice	Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Lewis, John Herbert	Rickett, J. Compton	White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Lough, Thomas	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)	Whitehead, Rowland
Lupton, Arnold	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)	Whitley, J.H. (Halifax)
Luttrell, Hugh Fownes	Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)	Wiles, Thomas
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd	Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs	Robertson, J. M. (Tynesido)	Williams, LlewellynfCarm'rth'n
Maclean Donald	Robinson, S.	Williams, Arthur Walters
Maenamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Robson, Sir William Snowdon	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
M'Arthur, William	Rogers, F. E. Newman	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
M'Crae, George	Runciman, Walter	Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk, Mid
M'Kenna, Reginald	Russel, T.W.	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
M'Micking, .Major G.	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)	Yoxall James Henry
Maddison, Frederick	Scarisbrick, T. T. L.
Mallet, Charles E.	Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Mr. Whiteleyand Mr. J. A. Pease.
Mansfield, H. Rendall (Liocoln)	Schwann, SirC- E. (Manchester
Marnham, F. J.	Scott, A.H (Ashton under Lyne)
Massie, J.	Sears, J.E.

MR. EVELYN CECIL

moved an Amendment requiring that a scheme made by the Commission should be laid upon the Table of both Houses of Parliament as soon as possible after the same had been made, and should lie there for six weeks, and should have effect as if enacted by the Act, unless within that period a Resolution were passed by either House rejecting the same. This practice was a very usual one. It was done in the case of the Charity Commissioners and in the case of Provisional Orders, and he thought the decisions of this Commission were exactly in the same category. It would secure a much greater measure of justice to the schemes and to the parties represented. It was a much shorter procedure than that under the Endowed Schools Acts. It was entirely different from the last Amendment in that particular. It was also more concise and simplified. It was one which hon. Gentlemen who had studied the practice of Parliament thoroughly understood, and it seemed to him that in a matter of this kind where no appeal whatever was to be made, the simple, natural, and usual procedure was to establish a time limit during which these schemes should lie on the Table of both Houses, and during which objectors who had a locus standi could make themselves heard, and the matter could be decided by Parliament.

Amendment proposed— In page 6, line 1, after the word ' shall' to insert the words ' be laid upon the Table of both Houses of Parliament as soon as possible after the same has been made, and shall lie there for six weeks, and, unless within that period a Resolution shall be passed by either House rejecting the same.'"—(Mr. Evelyn Cecil.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

SIR W. ROBSON

said he could not accept the Amendment, first, on the ground that its effect would be to delay proceedings, and, secondly, on the ground that it would not enable the parties to come to an amicable settlement.

SIR E. CARSON

submitted that, since they were giving to the Commission a much greater power than even the Court of Chancery possessed, there ought to be some provision for Parliament to review their decisions. There was no precedent for enacting that a scheme should have effect without Parliament having any power whatever in the matter. There were precedents for giving power to make schemes, but in this case they were going

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)	Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Burke, E. Hiiviland-
Acland-Hood, Rt. HnSirAlex F	Banner, John S. Harmood-	Butcher, Samuel Henry
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Baring, Hn. Guy (Winchester)	Carlile, E. Hildred
Anstruther-Gray, Major	Bignold, Sir Arthur	Carson, lit. Hon. Sir Edw. H.
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Boland, John	Cave, George
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. HughO	Bowles, G. Stewart	Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W
Ashley, W. W.	Boyle, Sir Edward	Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. SirH.	Bridgenian, W. Clive	Cecil, Lord K. (Marylebone, E.)
Balcarres, Lord	Brotherton, Edward Allen	Clancy, John Joseph
Balfour, RtHn. A.J. (CityLond.)	Burdett-Coutts, W.	Coates, E. Feetham (Lewishani)

a great deal further, because they we making them part of the Act of Parliament. They had been told that the Commissioners were going to act in the same way as the Court of Chancery, b all schemes drawn up by the Court Chancery were subject to review in the Court of Appeal and if necessary in the House of Lords. Were they giving the exceptional powers to the Commissioners because the Government thought the were better judges than the Judges in the Court of Chancery? He could not si why they should be placed in a different position.

MR. LYTTELTON (St. George's, Hanover Square)

thought they were entitled to some answer from the Government upon this point. No precedent had bee put forward for such a procedure as this in fact it was an absolutely unprecedented clause, because it deprived the King's Bench of the right to interfere even by the old remedy of prohibition or the rule of certiorari. It was astonishing that they could get no further explanation in regard to a proceeding which place these three distinguished men in position superior to the Court of Chancery and made their schemes perpetual. Surely they were entitled to some explanation t make their bewilderment less.

SIR W. ROBSON

said the question c the terms of the agreement was a matter which would be reserved for consideration on Report, but as to precedent, the provision now challenged was adopted and adapted from the Church of Scotland Act, 1905, for which the Front Opposition Bench itself was responsible.

Question put.

The Committee divided—Ayes, 135 Noes, 299. (Division List No.201.)

Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.	Hunt, Rowland	O'Shee, James John
Collins, SirWm J(S. Pancras, W	Kennedy, Vincent Paul	Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington)
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. HnCol. W.	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Courthope, G. Loyd	Keswick, William	Power, Patrick Joseph
Craik, Sir Henry	Kilbride, Denis	Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne
Crean, Eugene	King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull	Redmond, John E.(Waterford)
Cullinan, J.	Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)	Redmond, William (Clare)
Delany, William	Lane-Fox, G. R.	Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway)	Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)	Roche, John (Galway, East)
Dolan, Charles Joseph	Long, Col. Ch"s. W. (Evesham)	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Donelan, Captain A.	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S.)	Rutherford, John (Lancashire,
Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-	Lundon, W.	Scott, SirS. (Marvlebone, W.)
Du Cros, Harvey	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Smith, AbelH. (Hertford, East)
Duffy, William J.	Macpherson, J. T.	Starkey, John R.
Duncan, Robt. (Lanark, Govan)	Mac Voagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)	Sullivan, Donal
Fell, Arthur	M'lver, SirLewisfEdinburghW.	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.
Field, William	M'Kean, John	Thomson, W. Mitchell (Lanark)
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	M'Killo ., W.	Thornton, Percy M.
Flavin, Michael Joseph	Magnus, Sir Philip	Valentia, Viscount
Flynn, James Christopher	Marks, H. H. (Kent)	Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Forster, Henry William	Mason, James F. (Windsor)	Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)	Meagher, Michael	Warde, Col. ('. K. (Kent, Mid)
Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)	Middle more, J. Throginorton	White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Ginnell, L.	Mooney, J. J.	Wiles, Thomas
Haddock, George R.	Murphy, John	Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Halpin, J.	Nicholson, Win. G. (Petersfield)	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf' d.)	Nolan, Joseph	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Harrison Broadley, Col. H. B.	O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid.	Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart
Hay, Hon. Claude George	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)	Wyndham, Rt. Hn. George
Hayden, John Patrick	O'Connor, James(Wieklow, W	Young, Samuel
Hazloton, Richard	O'Connor, John (Kildare, N)	Younger, George
Helmsley, Viscount	O'Hare, Patrick
Hervev, F.W.F.(BurvS.Edm'ds	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Evelyn Cecil and Mr. Rawlinson.
Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)	O'Kelly, James(Roscommon ,N.
Hogan, Michael	O'Malley, William
Hornby, Sir William Henry	O'Mara, James
Houston, Robert Paterson	O Shaughnessy, P. J.

NOES.
Acland, Francis Dyke	Billson, Alfred	Clynes, J. R.
Adkins, W. Ryland	Birrell, Rt. Hon Augustine	Coats, Sir T. Glon(Renfrew. W.)
Agnew, George William	Black, Alexandi-ii Win. (Banff)	Cobbold, Felix Thornley
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire	Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)
Alden, Percy	Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)	Cooper, G. J.
Allen, A. Acland (Christehurch)	Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)	Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)
Armitage, R.	Brace, William	Corbett, C. H.(Sussex, E Grinst'd
Asquith, Rt. Hn. HerbertHenry	Bramsdon, T. A.	Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.
Astbury, John Meir	Branch, James	Cory, Clifford John
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Brigg, John	Cotton, Sir H. J. S.
Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.	Bright, J. A.	Craig, Herbert.). (Tynemouth)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Brocklehurst, W. D.	Cremer, William Randal
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Brodie, H. C.	Crosfield, A. H.
Barker, John	Brooke, Stopford	Davies, David(Montgomery Co.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Brunner, J. F.L. (Lancs., Leigh)	Davies, Ell s William (Eifion)
Barnard, E. B.	Brunner, Sir John T.(Cheshire)	Davies, Timothy (Fulham)
Barnes, G. N.	Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)	Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)
Barren, Rowland Hirst	Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.
Beale, W. P.	Buckmaster, Stanley O.	Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N.)
Beauchamp, E.	Burns, Rt. Hon. John	Dobson, Thomas W.
Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne	Burnyeat, J. D. W.	Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness
Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)	Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas	Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)
Beck, A. Cecil	Buxton, Rt. Hn. SydneyChas.	Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)
Bell, Richard	Byles, William Pollard	Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall
Bellairs, Carlyon	Cameron, Robert	Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)
Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R.	Carr-Gomm, H. W.	Edwards, Frank (Radnor)
Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.)	Causton, Rt. HnRichard Knight	Elibank, Master of
Bennett, E. N.	Cheetham, John Frederick	Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward
Berridge, T. H. D.	Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.	Eve, Harry Trelawney
Bertram, Julius	Clarke, C. Goddard	Everett, R. Lacey
Bethell, J.H.(Esseex, Romford)	Cleland, J. W.	Fenwick, Charles
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)	Clough, W.	Ferens, T. R.

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace	Lough, Thomas	Runciman, Walter
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Lupton, Arnold	Russell, T. W.
Fuller, John Michael F.	Luttrell, Hugh Fownes	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Fullerton, Hugh	Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Scarisbrick, T. T. L.
Gibb, James (Harrow)	Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs)	Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Gill, A. H.	Maclean, Donald	Schwann, Sir C.E.(Manchester)
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne)
Glendinning, R. G.	M'Arthur, William	Sears, J. E.
Goddard, Daniel Ford	M'Callum, John M.	Shackleton, David James
Gooch, George Peabody	M'Crae, George	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford
Grant, Corrie	M'Kenna, Reginald	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	M'Micking, Major G.	Silcock, Thomas Ball
Greenwood, Hamar (York)	Maddison, Frederick	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward	Mallet, Charles E.	Sloan, Thomas Henry
Griffith, Ellis J.	Manfield, Harry (Northants)	Smetton, Donald Mackenzie
Grove, Archibald	Mansfield, H. Rendall(Lincoln)	Snowden, P,
Gulland, John W.	Marnham, F. J.	Soares, Ernest J.
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Massie, J.	Spicer, Sir Albert
Hall, Frederick	Masterman, C. F. G.	Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)
Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)	Micklem, Nathaniel	Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)	Molteno, Percy Alport	Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Harmswoth, R.L. (Caithn'ss-sh	Mond, A.	Strachey, Sir Edward
Hart-Davies, T.	Money, L. G. Chiozza	Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Harvey A. G. C. (Rochdale)	Montagu, E. S.	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Harwood, George	Montgomery, H. G.	Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Haslam, James (Derbyshire)	Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Siunmerbell, T.
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)	Morgan, J. Llovd(Carmarthen)	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Hazel, Dr. A. E.	Morrell, Philip	Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Hedges, A. Paget	Morse, L. L.	Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Myer, Horatio	Tennant, SirEdward(Salisbury)
Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)	Napier, T. B.	Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Henry, Charles S.	Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)	Thomas, SirA. (Glamorgan, E.
Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)	Nicholls, George	Thomason. Franklin
Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe	Nicholson, Chas. N.(Doncaster)	Thompson, J. W,H.(S'mers't, E..
Higham, John Sharp	Norman, Henry	Tomkinson, James
Hobart, Sir Robert	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Torrance, A.M.
Hobhouse, Charles E. H.	Nuttall, Harry	Toulmin, George
Hodge, John	Paul, Herbert	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Holden, E. Hopkinson	Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)	Ure, Alexander
Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)	Pearce, William (limehouse)	Vivian, Henry
Hope, W. Bateman (Somerest, N	Pearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye)	Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Horniman, Emsile John	Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)	Wallace, Robert
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey	Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke	Walsh. Stephen
Hyde, Clarendon	Philpps, Owen C. (Pembroke)	Walters, John Tudor
Illingworth, Percy H.	Pollard, Dr.	Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Isaacs, Rufus Daniel	Price, C.E. (Edinburgh, Central)	Ward, John (Stoke-on-Trent)
Jackson, R.S.	Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)	Wardle, George J.
Jacoby, James Alfred	Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Jardine, Sir J.	Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.)	Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
Jenkins, J.	Radford, G.H.	Waterlow, D.S.
Johnson, John (Gateshead)	Rainy, A. Rolland	Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Raphael, Herbert H.	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Rea, Russell (Gloucester)	White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Kearley, Hudson E.	Rea, Walter Russell (Scarbora'	Whitehead, Rowland
Kekewich, Sir George	Rees, J. D.	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
King, Alferd John (Knutsford)	Rendall, Athelstan	Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Laidlaw, Robert	Renton, Major Leslie	Williams, Llwwelyn (C'rm'rth'n
Lamb, EdmundG. (Leominster	Richards, T.F. (Wolverhampt'n	Wills,Arthur Walters
Lambert, George	Rickett, J. Compton	Wilson, Hon. C.H.W.(Hull, W.
Lamont, Norman	Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton
Leese, SirJosephF. (Accrington)	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)	Winfrey, R.
Lehmann, R.C.	Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)	Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk, Mild)
Lever, A.Levy (Essex, Harwich	Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradf 'rd	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)	Robertson, J.M. (Tyneside)	Yoxall, James Henry
Levy, Maurice	Robson, Sir William Snowdon	TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Lewis, John Herbert	Rogers, F. E. Newman
Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David	Rowlands, J.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

moved to insert words providing that a scheme " may from time to time be altered by-order of the Board of Education on the application of the owners of the school or the local education authority, and with the consent of both." He understood that this matter had already engaged the attention of the President of the Board of Education. He moved the Amendment for the purpose of calling attention to the extraordinary gap which existed in the clause as it stood. He did not suppose that it was intended that the Commission should be permanent. That being so, there was no power to which the owners of schools and the local education authorities might go for the determination of questions arising between them after the Commission had ceased to exist. Unless words were inserted a curious state of things might arise. After a school had been adopted under Clause !i the neighbourhood might change altogether and the school be no longer needed, yet the local authority would be bound to maintain the building and the owners to provide the school. In that way the owners of the school might be prevented from using the school for some more useful purpose. Under these circumstances he moved the Amendment pro forma. He thought the Government i had already considered the question, butt he was sure that there would be great difficulty in working the clause.

Amendment proposed— In page 6, line 2, at end, to insert the words " but may from time to time be altered | by older of the Board of Education on the application of the owners of the school or the local education authority, and with the consent | of both.' "—(Sir William Anson.)

Question proposed, " That those words j be there added."

MR. BIRRELL

said that Part II. provided for an alteration of the scheme, but, as he proposed, with the approval of Gentlemen opposite, to move the omission of Part II., some Amendment would be necessary. He did not himself think that the Amendment of the hon. Baronet went quite far enough; and, therefore, it would be necessary on Report for him to introduce words which would fill the gap and carry out the object desired more efficiently.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

asked leave to withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

SIR FRANCIS POWELL

moved the omission of sub-section (4). It had been stated that there was an analogy between the action of the Commission in the case of the Scottish Churches and the power to be given to the Commission in this Bill; but he believed that there was no relation between the circumstances of the two cases, Whether that were so or not, this was a new Parliament, and Members were fully entitled to receive some justification for this entirely unprecedented and most remarkable action. It was more than whispered that this Court was of a highly exalted character, and that it would be almost an insult to submit its decisions to review. It should be remembered however, that Courts of the highest authority, manned by lawyers of the greatest legal distinction, experience, and skill were not ashamed to have their decisions reviewed. The Commission proposed to be set up by this Bill was at least as liable to error as other human institutions. It might err by exceeding its powers, by greatly mistaking them, or by inadequate interpretation of the language of the statute. He maintained that old principles should be adopted the solution of new problems which demanded the highest exercise of the best judicial mind. The power of review was one of the greatest importance. He happened to remember the time when this House passed an Address to the Crown relating to schemes of the Endowed Schools Commission with no power of review. Some change was necessary. Shortly after a Bill was introduced and passed to effect a change by giving powers to review. He thought that instead of establishing this new Commission certain powers required in dealing with trusts, charitable or educational, might have been given to the Charity Commissioners.

Amendment proposed— In page 6, line 3, to leave out subsection (4)."—(Sir Francis Powell.)

Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out to the word ' and,' in line 5, stand part of the clause."

MR. BIRRELL

said that strong words had been used in reference to a provision which had not even the merit of originality. The sub-section followed the language of the Churches of Scotland Act of 1905. He thought that in a case of this sort, having constituted a Court consisting of a member of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council and two other distinguished men, it would be absurd to allow an appeal in even case. It was essential that the Court should be strong, competent, and likely to inspire confidence; and that it should be allowed to carry out the object they all desired, a speedy settlement. It was true that the Commission would have to deal with very difficult questions affecting a large number of cases, but none of the forebodings expressed in old times in similar circumstances had been warranted by facts. There was no more remarkable and useful Commission of lawyers than that which was presided over by Sir Matthew Hale and which settled all the cases between landlord and tenant, leaseholders and freeholders, remaindermen and reversionaries, arising out of the Fire of London. That seemed going back a long time, but let anyone visiting Guildhall see the portrait there of Sir Matthew Hale, presented by the Corporation of London as a testimony of their obligation to him and the Court over which he presided. There was no appeal from their decisions, and they brushed aside the ordinary rules of evidence as then existing, and in the course of thirteen months an enormous number of cases were settled, involving immense sums, arising out of the Fire of London, which destroyed hundreds of deeds. All the cases were settled to the satisfaction of everybody end no appeal was allowed. Only one solitary peer made a complaint in the book of protests, that true home of lost causes, because he was shocked at there being no appeal. It was essential that the competent Court to be established under the Bill should settle these cases finally and quickly.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

had nothing whatever to say against the interesting historical review of the right hon. Gentle-ma n, in which he went back to 1666. [Mr. BIRRELL: The same period as the Act of Uniformity.] The right hon. Gentleman assumed that the perpetual tribute was awarded to Sir Matthew Hale because he swept aside all the rules of evidence and forms of procedure, and he might ask the right hon. Gentleman if these three gentlemen wore expected to perform a great public service of the same character. ["No, no."] Then there was no chance of their earning the immortality accorded to Sir Matthew Hale. One observation of the right hon. Gentleman's was unnecessarily controversial, when he said that no man who was party to the Act of the late Government in connection with the troubles in the Scottish Presbyterian Churches could object to this. But there was absolutely no parallel. The right hon. Gentleman had reminded them that this Commission would act according to the procedure of the Courts. The Scottish Commission had to deal with a great practical issue which was outside any mere legal decision, and of the three gentlemen appointed only one was a lawyer. There was no suggestion that they were to follow the practice of any Court of law. The gentlemen appointed under this Bill were a Court of law. He should like to ask what Court would have power to interfere with the Commission if sub-section (4) was not passed? If the Commission, acting within their powers, were to misuse those powers, it might be desirable that there should be an appeal, though he would be prepared to take the risk simply with a view to stopping interminable legal proceedings. But it was also possible that the Commissioners might go outside their powers. In that case, was there any power to restrain their action by any of His Majesty's Courts?

SIR W. ROBSON

expressed the opinion that if there was reason to believe that the Commission had not acted in accordance with the ordinary principles of the Court of Chancery, and there was no sub-section like that with which they were dealing, it would be possible to proceed, not by way of direct appeal, but by mandamus or prohibition, by some order from a superior Court on the ground that the Commissioners were not acting within their proper scope. In his opinion, this sub-section would prevent any proceedings by way of prohibition so long as the Commissioners did not go outside the whole scope of the Act. If they were to enact that money should be devoted under a scheme to some purpose wholly foreign to the general objects and purpose of the Act, in his opinion the right of the superior Court to proceed by way of prohibition would exist, but within certain limits.

MR. F. B. SMITH (Liverpool, Walton)

said he did not know whether it was the intention and desire of the Government that there should be a right of prohibition or some such power surviving to interfere with the action of the Commissioners if that action had been to travel outside the powers vested in them; but if so, he desired to impress upon the Government the fact that the language of this section was particularly ill-adapted to secure that result. It was provided in the first place in Clause 8, sub-section (2), that the Commission should act in accordance with the principles followed by the High Court, but the Committee must consider the effect of sub-section (4),which provided that no Court should have power to review or interfere in any way with the scheme or proceedings of the Commission. He asked under what words in this Bill, or under what common law right existing independently of the Bill, the Solicitor-General suggested that the right of prohibition could survive in the face of the perfectly clear statement in the clause. Did he understand the Solicitor-General to say that such an interference would not be in direct violation of the words of this section, which were that no Court should interfere in any way? He thought if the hon. and learned Gentleman had spoken a little more considerately he would not have given that opinion. It became necessary, therefore, to ask for a clear and distinct opinion from either the Solicitor-General or the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, who had had the advantage of a long and distinguished career on the Chancery side. He contended that if they were to attempt any proceedings by way of mandamus or prohibition upon the Bill as drafted, and if they were asked how they could justify their claim ' to this remedy in face of the words of Clause 4, no living lawyer could make an answer which would satisfy the Court. He welcomed the statement, however, that it was the intention of this Bill that if the Commissioners travelled outside their jurisdiction they should be dealt with. If that was the view of the Government he should certainly ask the Minister in charge of the Bill to make some change in these words.

MR. PAUL (Northampton)

said he had observed that upon every legal question of great general public interest and importance all the eminent lawyers in the House always differed, while the sensible laymen always agreed. He merely rose to remind the Loader of the Opposition that there was a Court, the creation of a recent statute, from which there was no appeal at all, namely, the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.

LORD R. CECIL

sincerely hoped the Government would accept this Amendment. The real point was whether under this clause there would be any appeal at all. He would, therefore, ask the solicitor-General whether he really suggested that there would be any means of-restraining the Commissioners, however widely they might travel beyond their jurisdiction.

SIR W. ROBSON

said that no proceeding of prohibition would be effective under Sub-section (4), but that he could imagine a case arising under the Churches of Scotland Act where the Commissioners had allocated the property to some other community altogether than either the United Free Church or the Free Church. That, clearly, would be going so entirely beyond the real purpose of the Act as to approach almost to the committing of an illegal act. Under those circumstances, he thought prohibition would lie.

SIR E. CARSON

reminded the hon. Member for Northampton that it was not at all to be wondered at that lawyers and even Courts disagreed on these points. When lawyers were spoken of contemptuously it might be only fair to bear in mind that they rendered a service in this House in pointing out directions in which improvements could be effected in Bills. He gathered from the speech of the Solicitor-General that under certain circumstances prohibition might lie and that under certain other circumstances prohibition might not lie: but he thought the hon. and learned Gentleman would agree that it would be impossible to tell under what circumstances

AYES.
Acland, Francis Dyke	Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.	Hall, Frederick
Adkins, W. Ryland	Churchill, Winston Spencer	Hardie, J. Koir(MerthyrTydvil)
Agnew, George William	Clarke, C. Goddard	Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)
Alden, Percy	Cleland, J. W.	Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch	Clough, W.	Harmsworth. R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh
Armitage, R.	Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)	Hart-Davies, T.
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Cobbold, Felix Thornley	Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert H.	Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)	Harwood, George
Astbury, John Meir	Collins, SirWm J(S. Paneras, W.	Haslam, James (Derbyshire)
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Cooper, G. J.	Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E)	Corbett, C.H(Sussex, E. Grinst'd	Hazel, Dr. A. E.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.	Hedges, A. Paget
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Cory, Clifford John	Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Barker, John	Cotton, Sir H. J. S.	Henderson. J. M. (Aberdeen, W-
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Craig, H. J. (Tynemouth)	Henry, Charles S.
Barnard, E. B.	Cremer, William Randal	Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Crosfield, A. H.	Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)
Beale, W, P.	Davies, David (Montgomery Co	Higham, John Sharp
Beauchamp, E.	Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)	Hobart, Sir Robert
Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne	Davies, Timothy (Fulham)	Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Beaumont. W. C. B. (Hexham)	Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)	Hodge, John
Beck, A. Cecil	Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.	Holden, E. Hopkinson
Bell, Richard	Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N	Holland. Sir William Henry
Bellairs, Carlyon	Dobson, Thomas W.	Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)
Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo	Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness	Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.
Bennett, E. N.	Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)	Horniman. Emslic John
Berridge, T. H. D.	Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)	Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Bertram, Julius	Dunne, MajorMartin(Walsall)	Hyde, Clarendon
Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)	Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)	Illingworth, Percy H.
Bethell, T. H. (Essex, Maldon)	Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)	Isaacs, Rufus Daniel
Billson, Alfred	Edwards, Frank (Radnor)	Jackson, R. S.
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Elibank, Master of	Jardine, Sir J.
Black, Alexander Win. (Banff)	Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward	Jenkins, J.
Black, ArthurW.(Bedfordshire	Ev., Harry Trelawney	Johnson, John (Gateshead)
Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire, N.E.	Everett, R. Lacey	Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)
Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)	Fenwick, Charles	Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Brace, William	Fereny, T. R.	Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.
Bramsdon, T. A.	Fiennes, Hon. Eustace	Jowett, F. W.
Branch, James	Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter	Kearley, Hudson E.
Brigg, John	Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Kekewich, Sir George
Bright, J. A.	Fuller. John- .Michael F.	Kineaid-Stniih, Captain
Brocklehurst, W. D.	Fullerton, Hugh	King, Alfred John (Knutsford)
Brodie, H. C.	Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford, S.	Laidlaw, Robert
Brooke, Stopford	Gibb, James (Harrow)	Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)
Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh)	Gill, A. H.	Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)
Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeen	Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John	Lambert, George
Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs)	Glendinning, R. G.	Lamont, Norman
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Goddard, Daniel Ford	Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras. E.)
Buckmaster, Stanley O.	Gooch. George Peabody	Leese, Sir. J. F. (Accringrton
Burns. Rt. Hot. John	Grant, Corrie	Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)
Burnyeat, J. D. W.	Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	Level, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas	Greenwood, Hamar (York)	Levy, Maurice
Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles	Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward	Lewis, John Herbert
Byles, Willam Pollard	Griffith, Ellie J.	Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
Carr-Gomm, H. W.	Grove, Archibald	Lough, Thomas
Causton, Rt. Hn. RichardKnight	Gulland, John W.	Lupton. Arnold
Cheetham, John Frederick	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

stances they would lie and under what circumstances they would not. If the Committee passed this section they would be opening the door to further litigation.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 315; Noes, 148. (Division List No. 202.)

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Priestley, Arthur (Granthnm)	Summerbell, T.
Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs	Priestley ,W. E. B. (Bradford, E.	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Maekarness, Frederic C.	Radford, G. H.	Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Maclean, Donald	Rainy, A. Holland	Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)
Macnmara. Dr. Thomas J.	Raphael, Herbert H.	Tennant, SirEdward(Salisbury)
M'Arthur, William	Rea, Russell (Gloucester)	Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
M'Callum, JohnM.	Rea, WalterRussell(Scarboro')	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
M'Crae, George	Rees, J. D.	Thomasson, Franklin
M'Kenna, Reginald	Rendall, Athelstan	Thompson, J.WH.(Somerset, E.
M'Laren, Sir C. K. (Leicester)	Renton, Major Leslie	Tomlinson, James
M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)	Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mton)	Torrance, A. M.
M'Micking. .Major G.	Rickett, J. Compton	Toulmin, George
Maddison, Frederick	Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)	Ure, Alexander
Mallet, Charles E.	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)	Verney, F. W.
Manfield, Harry (Northants)	Roberts, John H. (Danbighs)	Vivian, Henry
Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)	Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd.	Walker, H. lie R. (Leicester)
Marnham, F. J.	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)	Wallace, Robert
Massie, J.	Robinson, S.	Walsh, Stephen
Menzies, Walter	Robson, Sir William Snowdon	Walters, John Tudor
Micklem, Nathaniel	Roe, Sir Thomas	Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Molteno. Percy Alport	Rogers, F. E. Newman	Walton. Joseph (Barnsley)
Mond, A.	Rowlands, J.	Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent
Money, L. G. Chiozza	Runciman. Walter	Wardle, George J.
Montagu, E. S.	Russell, T. W.	Wason, Eugene ((Clackmannan)
Montgomery. H. G.	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)	Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Scarisbrick. T. T. L.	Waterlow, D. S.
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen	Schwann, C. Duncvi (Hyde)	Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Morley, Rt. Hon. John	Schwann, Sir C. E.(Manchester)	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire
Morrell, Philip	Scott, A.H. (Ashton-und.-Lyne	White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Morse, L. L.	Sears, J.E.	Whitehead, Rowland
Murray, James	Seddon, J.	Whitlev. J. H. (Halifax)
Myer, Horatio	Seely, Major J. B.	Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Napier, T. B.	Shackleton, David James	Wiles, Thomas
Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)	Shaw, Charles Edw (Stafford)	Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Nicholls, George	Shipman, Dr. John G.	Williams, Llewolyn(Carm'rth'n
Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster	Silcock, Thomas Ball	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Norman, Henry	Simon, John Allsebrook	Wills, Arthur Walters
Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Nuttall, Harry	Sloan, Thomas Henry	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Paul, Herbert	S meat on, Donald Mackenzie	Winfrey, R.
Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)	Snowden, P.	Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk, Mid)
Pearce, William (Limehouse)	Soares, Ernest J.	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Pearson.W. H.M. (SntTolk.Eye)	Spicer, Sir Albert	Woodhouse, SirJT. (Huddersfi'd
Perks, Robert William	Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)	Yoxall, James Henry
Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)	Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke	Stewart-Smith', D. (Kendal)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)	Strechev, Sir Edward
Pollard, Dr.	Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Price, C.E.(Edinburgh,Central)	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.)	Stuart, James (Sunderland)

NOES.
Abraham, William, (Cork, N.E.	Boyle, Sir Edward	Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)
Acland-Hood, Rt. HnSirAlexF.	Bridgeman, W. Clive	Courthope, G. Loyd
Ambrose, Robert	Brotherton, Edward Allen	Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Bull, Sir William James	Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)
Anstruther-Gray, Major	Burdett-Coutts, W.	Craik, Sir Henry
Arkwright, .John Stanhope	Burke, E. Haviland-	Crean, Eugene
Arnold-Korster, Rt. Hn. HugliO .	Butcher. Samuel Henry	Cullinan, J.
Ashley, W. W.	Carlile, E. Hildred	Delany, William
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.	Carson, Rt. H m. Sir Edw. H.	Devlin, CharlesRamsay(Galway
Balcarres, Lord	Cave, George	Dolan, Charles Joseph
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(City Lond.	Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.	Donelan, Captain A.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Banner, John S. Harmood-	Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-	Du Cross, Harvey
Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)	Clancy, John Joseph	Duffy, William J.
Barrie, H. T.(Londonderry. N.)	Coates, E.Feetliani(Lewisham	Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan)
Beach, Hn. Michael HughHicks	Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Fell, Arthur
Bignold. Sir Arthur	Cogan, Denis J.	Field, William
Boland, John	Condon, Thomas Joseph	Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.
Bowles, G. Stewart	Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)	Flavin, Michael Joseph

Fletcher, J. S.	Lonsdale, John Brownlee	Rawlinson, JohnFrederickPeel
Flynn, James Christopher	Lundon, W.	Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Forster, Henry William	Macpherson, J. T.	Redmond, William (Clare)
Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)	MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.	Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall
Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)	M'Iver, SirLewis(EdinburghW	Roche, John ((Sahvay, East)
Ginnell, L.	M'Kean, John	Ropner, Col. Sir Robert
Haddock. George R.	M'Killop, W.	Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Halpin, J.	Magnus, Sir Philip	Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford)	Marks, H. H. (Kent)	Smith, AbelH-(Hertford, East)
Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.	Mason, James F. (Windsor)	Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton
Hay, Hon. Claude George	Meagher, Michael	Starkey, John R.
Hayden, John Patrick	Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Sullivan, Donal
Hazleton, Richard	Mooney, J. J.	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUniv.
Heaton, John Henniker	Murphy, John	Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Helmsley, Viscount	Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield	Thornton, Percy M.
Hervey, F.W.F.(Bury S. Edm'ds	Nield, Herbert	Turnour, Viscount
Hill, Sir Clement(Shrewsbury)	Nolan, Joseph	Valentia, Viscount
Hogan, Michael	O'Brien, Kendal (TipperaryMid	Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Hornby, Sir William Henry	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)	Walrond. Hon. Lionel
Houston, Robert Paterson	O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.	Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.
Hunt, Rowland	O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)	White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Kennedy, Vincent Paul	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)	Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.
Kenyon-Slanoy, Rt. Hn. Col. W.	O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)	Willougliby de Eresby, Lord
Keswick, William	O'Hare, Patrick	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Kilbride, Denis	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stnart-
King,Sir HenrySeymour(Hull)	O'Kelly, JameslRoseoinmonN.)	Wyndham. Rt. Hon. George
Lane-Fox, G. R.	O'Malley, William	Young, Samuel
Law, Andrew Bonar(Dulwieh	O'Mara, James	Younger, George
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)	O'Shaughnessy, P.J.
Long, Col. Chas. W.(Evesham)	O'Shee, James John	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Robert Cecil.
Long, Rt. Hn.Walter (Dublin, S.	Power, Patrick Joseph

And, it being after Eleven of the clock, the Chairman proceeded to interrupt the business.

Whereupon Mr. BIRRELL claimed, "That the Question, 'That the clause as

AYES.
Acland, Francis Dyke	Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford	Cherry. Rt. Hon. R. R.
Adkine, W. Ryland	Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)	Churchill, Winston Spencer
Agnew, George William	Billson, Alfred	Clarke, C. Goddard
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Cleland, J. W.
Alden, Percy	Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff)	Clough, W.
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch	Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire	Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)
Armitage, R.	Bolton, T. D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)	Cobbold, Ft'lix Thonrley
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)	Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry	Brace, William	Collins, .Sir W. J. (S. Pancras, W
Astbury, John Meir	Bramsdon, T. A	Cooper, G. J.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Branch, James	Corbett, CH.(Sussex, E.Grinst'd
Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.)	Brigg, John	Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Bright, J. A.	Cory, Clifford John
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Brocklehurst, W.D.	Cotton .Sir H. J. S.
Barker, John	Brodie, H. C.	Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Brooke, Stopford	Cremer, William Randal
Barnard, E. B.	Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes. Leigh	Crosfield, A. H.
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen)	Crossley, William J.
Beale, W. P.	Bryce, J.A (Inverness Burghs)	Davies, David (MontgomeryCo.
Beauchamp, E.	Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)
Beaumont, Hubert (Eastbo'rne	Burns, Rt. Hon. John	Dovies, Timothy (Fulham)
Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)	Burnveat, J. D W.	Davies W. Howell (Bristol, S.)
Beck, A. Cecil	Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas	Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)
Bellairs, Carlyon	Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.	Dickinson, W. H. (StPancrasN.
Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.	Byles, William Pollard	Dobson, Thomas W.
Bennett, E. N.	Carr-Gomm, H. W.	Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness
Berridge, T. H. D.	Causton, Rt. HnRichardKnight	Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)
Bertram, Julius	Cheetham, John Frederick	Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

amended stand part of the Bill,' be now put."

The Committee divided:— Ayes, 311; Noes, 145. (Division List No. 203.)

Dunne, Major E. Marin(Walsall	Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominser	Richards, T.F. (Wolverh mp 'n
Edwards, Clemen (Denbigh)	Lamb, Ernest H. (Rocheser)	Rickett, J. Compton
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)	Lamber, George	Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Edwards, Frank (Radnor)	Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Elibank, Maser of	Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accringon	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)
Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward	Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)	Roberson, SirGScott (Bradf'r
Eve, Harry Trelawney	Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside
Everett, R. Lacey	Levy, Maurice	Robinson, S.
Fenwick. Charles	Lewis, John Herbert	Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Ferens, T. R.	Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David	Roe, Sir Thomas
Ferguson, R. C. Munro	Lough, Thomas	Rogers F. E, Newman
Fiennes, Hon. Eustace	Lupton, Arnold	Rowlands, J.
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Lutrell, Hugh Fownes	Runciman, Walter
Fuller, John Michael F.	Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Russell, T. W.
Fullerton, Hugh	Maedonald, J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S	Mackamess, Frederic C.	Scarisbrick. T.T.L.
Gibb, James (Harrow)	Maclean, Donald	Snhwaun, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Gill, A. H.	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Schwann, SirC. E(Manchester)
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.	M'Callum, John M.	Scott, A.H.(Ashton underLyne)
Glendinning, R. G.	M'Crae, George	Sears, J. E.
Goddard, Daniel Ford	M'Kenna, Reginald	Seddon, J.
Gooch, George Peabody	M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester	Shackleton, David James
Grant, Corrie	M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	M'Micking, Major G.	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Greenwood, Hamar (York)	Maddison, Frederick	Silcook, Thomas Ball
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward	Mallet, Charles E.	Simon, John Allsebrook
Griffith, Ellis J.	Manfield, Harry (Northans)	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Grove, Archibald	Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)	Sloan, Thomas Henry
Gulland, John W.	Marnham, F. J.	Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Gnrdon, Sir W. Brampton	Massie, J.	Snowden, P.
Hall, Frederick	Menzies, Walter	Soares, Ernest J
Hardie, J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil)	Micklem, Nathaniel	Spicer, Albert
Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)	Molteno, Percy Alport	Stanley, Hn. A.Lyulph(Chesh.)
Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.	Mond, A.	Stewar, Halley (Greenock)
Harmsworth, R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh.	Money, L. G. Chiozza	Stewar-Smith, D. (Kendal,
Hart-Davies, T.	Montagu, E. S.	Strachey, Sir Edward
Harvey A. G. C. (Rochdale)	Montgomery, H. H.	Straus, B.S. (Mile End
Harwood, George	Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Haslam, James (Derbyshire)	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen	Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)	Morley, Rt. Hon. John	Summerbell, T.
Hazel, Dr. A. E.	Morrell, Philip	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Hedges, A. Paget	Morse, L. L.	Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Murray, James	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Henderson, J.M (Aberdeen, W.	Myer, Horatio	Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)
Henry, Charles S.	Napier, T. B.	Tennant, H J. (Berwickshire)
Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)	Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)	Nicholls, George	Thomasson, Franklin
Higham, John Sharp	Nicholson, CharlesN. (Doncast'r	Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset.E
Hobart. Sir Robert	Norman, Henry	Tomkinson, James
Hodge, John	Norton, Cap. Cecil William	Torrance, Sir A. M.
Holden, E. Hopkinson	Nutall, Harry	Touhnin, George
Holland, Sir William Henry	Paul, Herbert	Ure, Alexander
Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)	Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)	Verney, F. W.
Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset, N	Pearce William (Limehouse)	Vivian, Henry
Horniman, Emslie John	Pearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye)	Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey	Perks, Robert William	Wallace, Robert
Hyde, Clarendon	Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)	Walsh, Stephen
Illingworth, Percy H.	Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke	Walters, John Tudor
Isaacs, Rutus Daniel	Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)	Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Jackson, R. S.	Pollard, Dr.	Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)
Jardine, Sir J.	Price, C.E.(Edinburgh, Central)	Wardle, George J.
Jenkins, J.	Price, Robert John (Norfork, E.	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Johnson, John (Gateshead)	Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)	Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Priestley, W. E. B.(Bradford, E.	Waterlow, D. S.
Jones, Sir D. Brynmor(Swansea	Radford, G. H.	Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Rainy, A. Holland	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Jowett, F. W.	Raphael, Herbert H.	White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Kearley, Hudson E.	Rea, Russell (Gloucester)	Whitehead, Rowland
Kekewich, Sir George	Rea, Walter Russell (Gl'cester)	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Kincaid- Smith, Captain	Rees, J.D.	Wiles, Thomas
King, Alfred John (Knutsford)	Rendall, Athelstan	Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Laidlaw, Robert	Renton, Major Leslie	Williams, Llewelyn (Carm'thn

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)	Winfrey, R.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Wills, Arthur Walters	Wodehouse, Lord (Norfolk, Mid
Wilson, Hn. C. H. W. (Hull, W.)	Wood, T M'Kinnon
Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)	Woodhouse, Sir J.T(Hudd'rsfi'd
Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton	Yoxall, Thomas Henry

NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Duffy, William J.	Nield, Herbert
Ambrose, Robert	Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan	Nolan, Joseph
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Fell, Arthur	O'Brien, Kenilal(Tipperary, Mid
Anstruther-Gray, Major	Field, William	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Arkwriglit, John Stanhope	Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Amold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.	Flavin, Michael Joseph	O'Connor, John (Kiltlane, N)
Ashley, W. W.	Fletcher, J. S.	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.	Flynn, James Christopher	O'Donnell. John (Mayo, S.)
Balcarres, Lord	Forstor, Henry William	O'Hare, Patrick
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(CityLond.	Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)	0'Kelly,James(Roscommon, N.
Banner, John S. Harmood-	Ginnell, L.	O'Malley, William
Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)	Haddock, George R.	O'Mara James
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)	Halpin, J.	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Beach, Hon. MichaelHugh Hicks	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford	O'Shee, James John
Bignold, Sir Arthur	Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.	Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington
Boland, John	Hay, Hon. Claude George	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bowles, G. Stewart	Hayden, John Patrick	Power, Patrick Joseph
Boyle, Sir Edward	Hazleton, Richard	Rawlinson, Joim Frederick P.
Bridgeman, W. Clive	Heaton, John Henniker	Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Brotherton, Edward Allen	Helmsley, Viscount	Redmond, William (Clare)
Bull, Sir William James	Hervey, F.W.F.(Bury S. Edm'ds	Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Burdett-Coutta, W.	Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)	Roche. John (Galway, East)
Burke, E. Haviland-	Hogan, Michael	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Butcher, Samuel Henry	Houston, Robert Paterson	Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Carlile, E. Hiklred	Hunt, Rowland	Scott, Sir S. (Marvlobone, W.)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Kennedy, Vincent Paul	Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East
Cave, George	Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.	Smith, F.E. (Liverpool, Walton)
Cavendish, Rt. Hon. VictorC. W.	Keswick, William	Starkey, John R.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Kilbride, Denis .	Sullivan, Donal
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-	King, Sir HenrySeymourf Hull)	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(0x'fdUniv
Cecil.Lord R. (Marvlebone, E.)	Line-Fox, G. R.	Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)
Claney, John Joseph	Law, Andrew 15onar (Dulwich	Thornton, Percy 11.
Cochrane, Hon. Thrw. H. A. E.	Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)	Tumour, Viscount
Cogan, Denis J.	Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)	Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S.	Walrond, Hon. Lionel
C rbett, A. Camton (Glasgow)	Lonsdale, John Brownlee	Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)	Lundon, W.	White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Courthope, G. Loyd	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)	MaeVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)	M'lver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh)	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Craik, Sir Henry	M'Kean, John	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Croan, Eugene	M'Killop, W.	Wyndham, Ht. Hon. George
Cullinan, J.	Magnus, Sir Philip	Young, Samuel
Delany, William	Marks, H. H. (Kent)	Younger, George
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay(Galway)	Mason, James F. (Windsor)
Dolan, Charles Joseph	Meagher, Michael	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.
Donelan, Captain A.	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Mooney, J. J.
Du Cros, Harvey	Murphy, John

Question put accordingly, " That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

AYES.
Acland, Francis Dyke	Armitage, R.	Balfour, Robert (Lanark)
Adkins, W. Ryland	Asrhton, Thomas Gair	Baring, Godfrey(Isle of Wight)
Agnew, George William	Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.	Barker, John
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Astbury, John Meir	Barlow, Percy (Bedford)
Alden, Percy	Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Barnard, E.B.
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)	Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)	Barran, Rowland Hirst

The Committee divided:— Ayes, 311; Noes, 146. (Division List No. 204.)

Beale, W. P.	Everett, R. Lacey	Lewis, John Herbert
Beauchamp. E.	Fenwick, Charles	Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne	Ferens, T. R.	Lough, Thomas
Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)	Ferguson, R. C. Munro	Lupton, Arnold
Beck, A. Cecil	Fiennes, Hon. Eustace	Luttrell, Hugh Fownes
Bellairs, Carlvon	Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Benn, W. (T'wr HamlotsS, Geo.	Fuller, John Michael F.	Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs)
Bennett, E. N.	Fullerton, Hugh	Mackarness, Frederic C.
Berridge, T. H. D.	Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford, S.	Maclean, Donald
Bertram, Julius	Gibb, James (Harrow)	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)	Gill, A. H.	M'Cullum, John M.
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)	Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herb, John	M'Crae, George
Billson, Alfred	Glendinning, R. G.	M'Kenna, Reginald
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Goddard, Daniel Ford	M'Laren, SirC. B. (Leicester)
Black, Alexander Win.(Banff)	Gooeh George Peabody	M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)
Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire)	Grant, Corrie	M'Micking, Major G.
Bolton, T. D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)	Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	Maddison, Frederick
Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)	Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward	Mallet, Charles E.
Brace, William	Griffith, Ellis J.	Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Bramsdon, T. A.	Grove, Archibald	Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)
Branch, James	Gulland, John W.	Marnhara, F. J.
Brigg, John	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Massie, J.
Bright, J. A.	Hall. Frederick	Menzies, Walter
Brocklehurst, W D.	Hardie J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil)	Micklem, Nathaniel
Brodie, H. C.	Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)	Molteno, Percy Alport
Brooke, Stopford	Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)	Mond, A.
Brunner, J.F.L.(Lanes.,Leigh)	Harmsworth, R.L.(Caith'ss-sh)	Money, L. G. Chiozza
Bryee, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen)	Hart- Davies, T.	Montagu, E. S.
Bryoe, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)	Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)	Montgomery, H. G-
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Harwood, George	Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Burns, Rt. Hon. John	Haslam, James (Derbyshire)	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Burnyeat, J. D. W.	Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)	Morley, Rt. Hon. John
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas	Hazel, Dr. A. E.	Morrell, Philip
Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.	Hedges, A. Paget	Morse, L. L.
Bylea, William Pollard	Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Murray, James
Carr-Gomm, H. W.	Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.	Myer, Horatio
Causton, Rt. Hn. RiehardKnight	Henry, Charles S.	Napier, T. B.
Cheetham, John Frederick	Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon. S.)	Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.	Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)	Nicholls, George
Churchill, Winston Spencer	Higham, John Sharp	Nicholson, Chas. N.(Doncast'r)
Clarke. C. Goddard	Hobart, Sir Robert	Norman, Henry
Cleland, J. W.	Hodge, John	Norton, Captain Cecil William
Clough, W.	Holden, E. Hopkinson	Nuttall, Harry
Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew, W.)	Holland, Sir William Henry	Paul, Herbert
Cobbold, Felix Thornley	Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)	Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)	Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.	Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Collins, Sir W.J.(S.Pancras, W.)	Horninian, Emslie John	Pearson, W.H.M.(Suffolk, Eye)
Cooper, G. J.	Howard, Hon. Geoffrey	Perks, Robert William
Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, E Grinst'd	Hyde, Clarendon	Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.	Illingworth, Percy H.	Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke)
Cory, Clifford John	Isaacs, Rufus Daniel	Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Cotton, Sir H. J. S.	Jackson, R. S.	Pollard, Dr.
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)	Jardine, Sir J.	Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)
Cremer, William Randal	Jenkins, J.	Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.
Crosfield, A. H.	Johnson, John (Gateshead)	Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)
Crossley, William J.	Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.
Davies, D. (Montgomery Co.)	Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Radford, G. H.
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)	Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)	Rainy, A. Rolland
Davies, Timothy (Fulham)	Jowett, F. W.	Raphael, Herbert H.
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)	Kearley, Hudson E.	Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)	Kekewich, Sir George	Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro')
Diekinsou, W.H.(St. Pancras, N.	Kincaid-Smith, Captain	Rees, J. D.
Dobson, Thomas W.	King, Alfred John (Knutsford)	Kendall, Athelstan
Duncan, C.(Barrow-inFurness)	Laidlaw, Robert	Rsnton, Major Leslie
Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)	Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster	Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mp'n)
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)	Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)	Rickett, J. Compton
Dunne, Maj. E. Martin(Walsall)	Lambert, George	Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)	Lamont, Norman	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)	Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Edwards, Frank (Radnor)	Leese, SirJoseph F.(Accrington)	Robertson, SirG, Scott(Bradf'rd
Elihank, Master of	Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward	Lever, W. H.(Cheshire, Wirral)	Robinson, S.
Eve, Harry Trelawney	Levy, Maurice	Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Roe, Sir Thomas	Strachey, Sir Edward	Wason, Eugene(Claekmannan)
Rogers, F. E. Newman	Straus, B. S. (Mile End)	Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Rowlands, J.	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)	Waterlow. D. S.
Runciman, Walter	Stuart, James (Sunderland)	Wedgwood. Josiah C.
Russell, T. W.	Summerbell, T.	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)	White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Scarisbrick, T. T. L.	Taylor, John W. (Durham)	Whitehead, Rowland
Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)	Taylor. Theodore C. (Radcliffe	Whitley, J.H. (Halifax)
Schwann, Sir C.E.(Manchester)	Teimant, SirEdward(Salisbury	Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Scott, A.H.(Ashton underLyne)	Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)	Wiles, Thomas
Sears, J. E.	Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)	Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Seddon, J.	Thomasson, Franklin	Williams, Llewelyn(Caimarthea
Shackleton, David James	Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset,E.	Williams, Osmond(Merioneth
Shaw, Chas. Edward (Stafford)	Tomkinson, James	Wills. Arthur Walters
Shipman, Dr. John G.	Torrance, Sir A. M.	Wilson, Hon.(' H.W.(Hull, W.
Silcock, Thomas Ball	Toulmin, George	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Simon, John Allsebrook	Ure, Alexander	Wilson, W.T. (Westhoughton)
Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John	Verney, F. W.	Winfrey, R.
Sloan, Thomas Henry	Vivian, Henry	Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk, Mid
Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie	Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Snowdon, P.	Wallace, Robert	Woodhouse, SirJT(Henrdersf'd
Soares, Ernest J.	Walsh, Stephen	Yoxall, James Henry
Spicer, Sir Albert	Walters, John Tudor
Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)	Walton, Sir John L.(Leeds, S.)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Stewart, Halley (Greenock)	Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent
Stewart-Smith, D.(Kendal)	Wardle, George J.

NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)	Cullinan, J.	Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Ambrose, Robert	Delany, William	Lundoti, W.
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Devlin, CharlesRamsay(Galway	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Anstruther-Gray, Major	Dolan, Charles Joseph	Maopherson, .J. T.
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Donelan, Captain A.	MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)
Arnold-Forster, RtHnHughO.	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	M'lver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.)
Ashley, W. W.	Du Cros, Harvev	M'Kean, John
Aubrey-Fletchor, Rt. Hn. Sir H.	Duffy, William J.	M'Killop, W.
Balcarres, Lord	Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan	Magnus, Sir Philip
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(CityLond.	Fell, Arthur	Marks, H. H. (Kent)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Field, William	Mason, James F. (Windsor)
Banner, John S. Harmood-	Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	Meagher, Michael
Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)	Flavin, Michael Joseph	Mildmay. Francis Bingham
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)	Fletcher, J. S.	Mooney, J. J.
Beach, Hn. Michael HughHicks	Flynn, James Christopher	Murphy, John
Bignold, Sir Arthur	Forster, Henry William	Nield, Herbert
Boland, John	Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)	Nolan, Joseph
Bowles, G. Stewart	Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)	O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid
Boyle, Sir Edward	Ginnell, L.	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Bridgeinan, W. Clive	Haddock, George R.	O'Connor, James(W7ieklow,W.)
Brotherton, Edward Allen	Halpin, J.	O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Bull, Sir William James	Hardy, Laurenee(Kent, Ashford	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.	O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Burke, E. Haviland-	Hay, Hon. Claude George	O'Hare, Patrick
Butcher, Samuel Henry	Hayden, John Patrick	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Curlile, E. Hildred	Hazleton, Richard	O'Kelly, James(Roscomnion, N-
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Heaton, John Henniker	O'Malley, William
Cave, George	Helmsley, Viscount	O'Mara, James
Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.WT.	Hervey, F.W.F.(BuryS, Edm'ds.	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)	O'Shee, James John
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-	Hogan, Michael	Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington)
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)	Houston, RobertPaterson	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Clancy, John Joseph	Hunt, Rowland	Power, Patrick Joseph
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.	Kennedy, Vincent Paul	Rawlinson, John Frederick P.
Cogan, Denis J.	Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.	Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Keswick, William	Redmond, William (Clare)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)	Kilbride, Denis	Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall}
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)	King, SirHenrySeymour(Hull)	Roche, John (Galway, East)
Courthope, G. Loyd	Lane-Fox, G. R.	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim, S.	Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)	Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)	Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)	Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Craik, Sir Henry	Long, Col. CharlesW.(Evesham)	Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)
Crean, Eugene	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S.	Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)

Starkey, John R.	Walrond, Hon. Lionel	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Sullivan, Donal	Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)	Young, Samuel
Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(OxfdUniv.	White, Patrick (Mcath, North)	Youngor, George
Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)	Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Thornton, Percy M.	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord	TELLERS FOR THR NOES— Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentin.
Turnour, Viscount	Wolff, Gustav Wilhulm
Waldron, Laurence Ambrose	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

Whereupon the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.