HC Deb 05 July 1906 vol 160 cc225-8
MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Egyptian Ministry of the Interior, acting under the advice of Mr. Machell, issued an official report of the facts of the Denshawi affray case, as presented by the Government at the trial, a week or some days before such trial took place; if so, whether, in view of the effect of such publication upon the public mind in Egypt and in England, and in view of the possibility of prejudicing the Court before which the trial was held, he will explain why this course was adopted; whether the trial was held under the special Khedivial Decree of 1895 and the Court duly constituted in accordance with such decree, and all the members thereof thoroughly familiar † See (4)Debates, clviii., 696. with the Arabic tongue, both written and spoken, and duly qualified in criminal law: whether, under the Egyptian native penal code, flogging is permitted for any offence whatever, and if he will state whether such flogging is permitted under the Decree of 1895; whether there was any preliminary investigation, and, if so, whether the prisoners, or any of them, were represented thereat by counsel, and whether such investigation was held in public or in private, and whether at the preliminary investigation, if any, and at the trial, counsel for the prisoners were permitted to cross-examine the witnesses for the prosecution, or whether all questions were put to the witnesses by the President of the Court.

MR. PICKERSGILL (Bethnal Green, S.W.)

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether flogging is permitted by the penal code of Egypt; and, if so, by what article of the code, and as a punishment for what offences.

SIR EDWARD GREY

In view of the very incorrect reports which were being circulated in the Press, a preliminary statement of the facts, so far as they were then known, was given to the Press by the Ministry of the Interior on June 17th. The trial was held under the Khedivial Decree of 1895, and the Court was duly constituted in accordance with that Decree. The English Members of the Court were specially chosen on account of their knowledge of Arabic, and all except the military member, who was specially selected for his knowledge of Arabic and his experience of such matters, were technically as well as thoroughly qualified in criminal lair. Flogging is no longer allowed under the ordinary criminal law, and no stipulation as to the character of the punishment to be inflicted is laid down in the Decree of 1895. The Decree of 1895 lays down that a preliminary investigation shall take place, on the termination of which the case shall be brought publicly before the Court. I have no official information as to the other points mentioned in the Question, but they will be dealt with in the full Report which has been asked for. I should like to add, as Captain Machell's name is mentioned in this Question and was mentioned the other day, that, while any responsibility that Captain Machell had in the matter cannot be pronounced upon until the full Report has been received, I have asked Lord Cromer about him, and I am told by him that there is probably no European in Egypt who is more popular I with Egyptians and whose character stands higher.

MR. PAUL (Northampton)

asked when his right hon. friend expected to receive the despatch for which he had asked.

SIR EDWARD GREY

A full Report of the judgment is on its way, and a full Report, I imagine also, of the execution of the sentences. The evidence, which I also promised, extends to 200 pages of Arabic, which have to be translated, and obviously I cannot expect to have that as early as the other Reports.

MR. DILLON

asked, inasmuch as the Decree of 1895 did not specifically mention the right of the special tribunal to give punishments not possible under the ordinary law of Egypt, on what principle the special tribunal acted?

SIR EDWARD GREY

The Decree, if I remember aright—I can give the quotation later on if necessary—gives the Court full discretion as to the punishments to be inflicted.

MR. PICKERSGILL

asked whether, with the other Papers, the right hon. Gentleman would include a translation of the Khedivial Decree of 1895?

SIR EDWARD GREY

Yes, Sir, there will be no difficulty about doing that.

MR. DILLON

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Denshawi trials and executions were not arranged for under the direction of Lord Cromer; whether Lord Cromer has not been in England for some days; and, if so, why it is necessary to send to Egypt for detailed information on these matters.

SIR EDWARD GREY

Lord Cromer had left Egypt before the special tribunal had concluded their investigations. In any case, the arrangements connected with the trial and the executions of the sentences were primarily under the authority of the Egyptian Government, and not under that of His Majesty's Representative in Egypt.

MR. DILLON

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether an appeal to the Court of Native Appeal from the judgment of the special tribunal was not allowed in the Mombasa case in July, 1900; and who was responsible for the non-allowance of an appeal in the Denshawi case.

SIR EDWARD GREY

In the case of the assault on two British officers at Montazah, in July, 1900, proceedings were instituted against the two principal offenders before the ordinary tribunals, and not before the special tribunal as in the present case. Article 4 of the Khedivial Decree of 1895, lays down that there shall be no appeal from the judgment pronounced by the special tribunal.