HC Deb 20 December 1906 vol 167 cc1800-6

Lords Amendments considered.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (MR. GLADSTONE, Leeds, W.)

said that although the list was formidable in appearance the Amendments were in the main of a drafting character approved by the Government. There were but two exceptions with which the Government disagreed, one relating to infirm workmen and the other to the provision for applications to the Registrar for submission of cases to the medical referee.

The following Lords Amendments were agreed to—

Lords Amendments—

"In page 3, line 14, after the word 'mistake' to insert the words 'absence from the United Kingdom'; in line 18, to leave out the words 'employment abroad' and to insert the words' absence from the United Kingdom'; in line 23, to leave out the words 'it was sustained' and insert 'the accident happened'; in line 41, to leave out from 'and' to 'and' in page 4, line 2,and insert the words 'that where the scheme provides for contributions by the workmen, the scheme confers benefits at least equivalent to those contributions, in addition to the benefits to which the workmen would have been entitled under this Act."

"In page 4, line 5, to leave out the word 'those' and to insert the word 'his'; line 20, to leave out from the second 'the' to 'or' in line 23, and insert the words 'benefits conferred by any scheme no longer conform to the conditions stated in sub-section (1) of this section."

"In page 6, line 5, to leave out from the first 'and' to the end of line 7, and insert the words 'upon any such transfer the insurers shall have the same rights and remedies and be subject to the same liabilities as if they were the employer, so however that the insurers shall not be under any greater liability to the workman than they would have been under to the employer'; line 17, after the word 'exceeding,' to insert the words 'in any individual case'; line 19,to leave out from 'up' to 'and' in line 23; line 23, after the word 'and,' to insert the words 'those Acts and'; line 24, after the word 'accordingly,' to insert the words 'where the compensation is a weekly payment, the amount due in respect thereof shall, for the purposes of this provision, be taken to be the amount of the lump sum for which the weekly payment could, if redeemable, be redeemed if the employer made an application for that purpose under the First Schedule to this Act."

"In page 7, line 27, after the word 'may,' to insert the words 'except where the person injured is the master'; in line 32, after the third 'the,' to insert the word 'master'; in line 33, to leave out the word 'may,' and insert the word 'shall'; in line 36, after the word 'injured,' to insert the word 'master."

"In page 8, line 8, after the word 'a,' to insert the word 'master'; in line 17, after the word 'injured,' to insert the word 'master';' in line 35, after the second word 'of,' to insert the word 'masters'; 'in line 38, to leave out the word 'such."

"In page 9, lines 1 to 5, to leave out paragraph (h). In line 9, at end, to insert as a new sub-section:—

'(2) This section shall extend to pilots to whom Part X. of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, applies, as if a pilot when employed on any such ship as aforesaid were a seaman and a member of the crew.'''

"In page 10, line 8, after the word 'furnished,' to insert the words 'or is not sufficient to enable that employer to take proceedings under the next following proviso."

"In page 12, line 6, to leave out the words 'one or more' and insert the word 'a'; in line 7, to leave out the word 'schemes,' and insert the words 'company or society,' and to leave out the word 'have,' and to insert the word 'has'; 'in line 10, to leave out the words 'scheme or in one or other of such 'schemes,' and insert the words 'company or society'; in lines 10 and 11, to leave out the words 'managers of the scheme consent,' and to insert the words 'company or society consents'; in line 13, to leave out the words schemes or in one or other of such schemes,' and to insert the words 'company or society'; in line 15, at end, to insert the words 'where such a company or society has been established, but is confined to employers in any particular locality or of any particular class the Secretary of State may for the purposes of this provision treat the industry, as carried on by employers in that locality or of that class, as a separate industry'; in line 26, after the word 'order,' to insert the word 'provisional order."

"In page 13, line 13, to leave out the words 'either party,' and insert the words 'an employer or workman'; in line 24, to leave out the words 'rules of,' and to insert the words' the rules of the."

"In page 14, lines 16 and 17, to leave out the words 'summary conviction,' and insert the words 'conviction under the Summary Jurisdiction Acts."

"In page 15, line 25, to leave out from '1894' to the end of the paragraph;

Read a second time, and agreed to.

Lords Amendment—

"In page 19, line 9, after the word 'shillings' to insert the words '(c) In the case of a workman who has in accordance with regulations made by the Secretary of State obtained from a certifying surgeon a certificate to the effect that on account of old age or the loss of an eye, or a limb, or of any other serious physical infirmity or incapacity specified in the regulations, he is specially liable to serious accident if employed in any employment of any class specified in the certificate, and who has entered into an agreement in writing with his employer as to the maximum amount of compensation to be payable to him under this Act, the compensation if payable in respect of an accident happening to the workman whilst employed in an employment of any such class shall not exceed that maximum, but the maximum shall not be less—

  1. (i) Where death results from the injury and the workman leaves any dependants, than fifty pounds;
  2. (ii) Where total or partial incapacity for work results from the injury, than a weekly payment during the incapacity of ten shillings, and,"read a second time.

MR. GLADSTONE

said he need not go into the history of this Amendment. The question came up in the Standing Committee, and on the discussion in this House he undertook to bring up a clause on Report which should afford the House an opportunity for a free and full discussion of the subject upon its merits. They had a fair discussion upon Report, and he stated certain arguments in favour of the clause which he formally moved. He did not pretend then, and he did not pretend now, to have any strong feeling on the clause, but he had given these who were more closely representative of labour the opportunity of discussing the matter. The case against the proposal was stated with great lucidity by the hon. Member for Glasgow, and, the House deciding against the Amendment, the Government accepted that decision. In consequence of that decision he moved to disagree with the Lords Amendment.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

MR. HARMOOD-BANNER (Liverpool, Everton)

thought that it was desirable to point out the effect of this proposal. The House of Lords had made an effort against the opinion of this House to continue the employment of aged and infirm workmen. He agreed with the Labour Members that there was a difficulty about retaining this class of men at lower wages, but the position which it was proposed to set up was particularly hard upon the old men, and he would call attention to the fact that in some large railway works in the north recently over ninety-six men had had to leave their employment because of old age, and there was no provision for them. They were turned out into the world without support in consequence of this compensation having to be given. [Cries of "No."] That was what it came to. These old men had no provision made for them. He thought hon. Gentlemen below the gangway should give careful consideration to the case of these men who would be displaced under the stringent regulations to be brought into force. He would be very glad to assist in bringing in such a system of old age pensions as would be satisfactory, but if they disagreed with this Lords Amendment they would throw these old men upon the rates, without any other means of relief from the difficulties, misfortunes, and miseries of a dependent old age.

Question put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendments—

"In page 19, line 10, to leave out the words 'in computing.' and to insert the words 'for the purposes of the provisions of this schedule relating to'; in lines 10 and 11, to leave out the words 'for the purposes of this schedule', and to insert the words 'of a workman'; in lines 12 to 15, leave out Paragraph (a); in lines 16 and 17, to leave out the words 'where the workman was not employed at such a fixed rate of earnings, his'; in line 19, to leave out the word 'he,' and to insert the words 'the workman'; in line 30, to leave out the words 'was engaged under,' and to insert the words 'had entered into concurrent'; in line 31, after the word 'employers,' to insert the words, 'under which he worked at one time for one such employer, and at another time for another such employer."

"In page 20, line 12, after the word 'and,' to insert the words, 'to take or prosecute."

"In page 21, line 2, after the word 'court,' to insert the words 'or an award'; in line 6, to leave out the word 'further'; in line 7, after the word 'order,' to insert the words 'or the award'; in line 21, after the first 'or,' to insert the words 'subject to regulations of the Treasury;"

Read a second time, and agreed to.

Lords Amendments—

"In page 22, line 3, to leave out the words 'both parties,' and insert the words 'either party,' and to leave out the word 'applicants' and insert the word 'applicant," read a second time.

MR. GLADSTONE

said the House had on the subject of this Amendment accepted a proposal of the Government by which the original draft of the Bill was altered, and there was something to be said on both sides in this matter. Representations had been made that the feeling of those who spoke for the workmen was against the provision in the Bill as it stood. In consequence of that feeling, the Government put in an Amendment, but it was now proposed to restore the Bill to its former state. He therefore moved that the House should disagree with the Lords Amendment.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

MR. LAURENCE HARDY (Kent, Ashford)

said he did not wish to press the point, because after the decision of the Government it would be practically useless to do so. The House should remember, however, that this was a distinct suggestion of the Departmental Committee.

Question put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendments—

"In page 22, line 19, after the word 'and,' to insert the words 'to take or prosecute;"

"In page 23, line 3, after the word 'thereto,' to insert the words' provided that nothing in this paragraph shall be construed as preventing agreements being made for the redemption of a weekly payment by a lump sum;' to leave out lines 31 and 32; in line 33, after (1), to insert the words 'For the purpose of settling any matter which under this Act is to be settled by arbitration;"

"In page 24, line 30, to leave, out the word 'or,' and after the word' arbitrator,' to insert the words 'or Judge of the County Court, subject as respects such Judge and an arbitrator appointed by him to rules of Court;' in line 43, to leave out from the word 'Court' to 'who' in line 44;"

"In page 26, line 6, after the word 'unless,' to insert the words 'in either case;' in lines 13 and 14 to leave out the words 'in which the accident out of which the said matter arose occurred,' and insert the words 'prescribed by rules of Court;"

"In page 27, lines 2 and 3, to leave out the words 'appoint a medical referee to report on,' and to insert the words 'submit to a medical referee for report;' in line 14, to leave out (b) and (c), and to insert (d) and (e);"

Read a second time, and agreed to.

Committee appointed to draw up reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to certain of the Amendments made by the Lords to the Bill.

Committee nominated of—Mr. Secretary Gladstone, MR. Herbert Samuel, Mr. Burns, MR. Barnes, and Mr. Fenwick.

Three to be the quorum.

To withdraw immediately.—(Mr. Secretary Gladstone.)