§ MR. SINCLAIRmoved to insert after the word 'works' the words "in the case of the two first mentioned buildings."He wished to make a brief explanation that the fund of £3,000, which had been contributed for the maintenance and repair of the fabric of Dunblane Cathedral would be held by the Board of Trustees and devoted for that purpose just as it was now held by the Board of Manufactures. The Committee might rest assured that there was complete agreement between the Government and the authorities of Dunblane Cathedral.
§ Amendment proposed—
§ "In page 3, line 29, after the word 'works' to insert 'in the case of the two first mentioned buildings."—(Mr. Sinclair.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ *MR. MORTONsaid he understood that in future whatever money was necessary for maintaining the fabric of the Cathedral beyond this £3,000 would be given by Parliament.
§ MR. SINCLAIRsaid that the agreement distinctly stated that the Board of Trustees were to be charged with the maintenance and repair of the Cathedral.
§ *MR. MORTONsaid he congratulated the right hon. Gentleman on the agreement come to with regard to this ancient and historic building.
§ Amendment proposed—
§ "In page 3, line 30, after the word 'and' to insert the words 'in the case of the two last-mentioned buildings for the purposes and subject to any rights for or subject to which such buidings are presently held. The said buildings."—(Mr. Sinclair.)
§ Question, "That those words be there inserted, put, and agreed to.
§ MR. BLACKsaid he had an Amendment to propose on Clause 7, line 30, to 881 insert after "and" the words "together with any buildings vested in the Commission of Works for the purposes of the Royal Society of Edinburgh."
§ MR. SINCLAIRsaid that subject to the concurrence of the Treasury he would introduce the Amendment on Report.
§ Amendments proposed—
§ "In page 3, line 39, leave out the word 'endowment' and insert the word 'repair."(Mr. Sinclair.)
§ "In page 3, line 40, at the end, to add 'Provided that nothing in this Act contained and nothing done under this Act shall have the effect of imposing upon the heritors of the parish of Dunblane any obligations from which they were free at the passing of this Act."—(Mr. Sinclair.)
§ Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 8 and 9 agreed to.
§ MR. C. E. PRICEsaid he wished to move a new clause providing that the Royal Scottish Geographical Society should, during the pleasure of the Secretary for Scotland, remain in undisturbed possession of the rooms at present occupied by the Society in the National Portrait Gallery, rent free. He very much regretted that in the very interesting and satisfactory review which the Secretary for Scotland had given to the Committee, the right hon. Gentleman had taken no notice of the Royal Scottish Geographical Society, his point being that this Bill dealt with art, and not with geographical science. The lease of the Royal Scottish Geographical Society of the present promises expired last year, and they were now asking for some security of tenure. The society had done some excellent work for Scotland and the world; and he questioned whether there was any Geographical Society that had done better work. Its membership numbered 2,000, and it had branches in Glasgow, Aberdeen, and Dundee, and there was a request for a branch to be established in Perth. The society received no grant from the Government, and while the Royal Geographical Society of 882 England received a grant of £500 a year, the Scottish Society was charged £120 a year for rent. The Society had a large number of maps which were always open for inspection. Further, a resolution had recently been passed that the teachers of Scotland should have the privilege of becoming Members of the Society on payment of £1 1s., instead of £2 2s. He hoped that the Secretary for Scotland would give some assurance that the modest request made in the Amendment which he proposed would be acceded to.
§ MR. EUGENE WASON (Clackmannan and Kinross)seconded the adoption of the new clause, and associated himself with all that the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh had said, he would point out that in the Report of the Departmental Committee of the Board of Education, a hope was expressed that it might be possible to forego this rent of £120 a year. This was a small thing to ask for, when it was remembered that the Royal Geographical Society of England received a grant of £500 a year.
§ New clause—
§ "The Royal Scottish Geographical Society shall, during the pleasure of the Secretary for Scotland, remain in undisturbed possession of the rooms at present occupied by them in the National Portrait Gallery free of rent."—(Mr. G. E. Price.)
§ Brought up and read a first time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."
§ MR. CROMBIEsaid he might be permitted as one who had taken a prominent part in the negotiations in regard to this Bill to express the hope that the hon. Member would not press the Amendment. He sympathised with the claim of the society to public support, but the Amendment would do the society no good, and would take away the ground for a claim for a grant from the Treasury, while the remission of the rent would simply be the transfer of the amount from one Scottish institution to another.
LORD BALCAREESsaid that, if this Amendment was carried, a charge of £120 a year would be put on the country, and 883 he did not think that any private Member had a right to make such a Motion. The hon. Member had spoken of the grant of £500 to the Royal Geographical Society of England, but the obligations attached to the grant actually involved a loss to the Society. Everybody knew that the Royal Scottish Geographical Society was a most admirable institution, perhaps the best of its kind in Great Britain; but he strongly objected that the existing rooms which they occupied were suitable to such a society, and he thought that those rooms should be added to the accommodation of the Antiquarian Museum, or the National Portrait Gallery.
§ MR. SINCLAIRsaid he wished to bear testimony to the excellent work done by the Royal Scottish Geographical Society, but he objected to the clause proposed by the hon. Member on the ground that it would deprive the new Board of Trustees of a part of its income, and fetter the discretion of the Board in giving consideration to any claim that the society might put forward in the ordinary way to the Treasury.
THE CHAIRMANsaid he had looked into the point raised by the noble Lord the Member for Chorley, and his opinion was that the clause was out of order as it involved the creation of a public charge. It was incompetent for a private Member to move such a Motion.
§ MR. C. E. PRICEaccepted the decision of the Chairman, but he wished to say that the debate had been eminently satisfactory to Scotland, and it would be most ungracious to press the Amendment to a division. He hoped, however, that the Prime Minister would use his influence to secure that something should be done by way of grant from the Treasury to the Royal Scottish Geographical Society.
§ Clause withdrawn.
§ *MR. MORTONsaid he wished to support his hon. friend, and would move his Amendment omitting from it the last three words viz., "free of rent." That would do something for the Royal Scottish Geographical Society, as it would enable them to remain in undisturbed possession of their present quarters.
§ New clause—
§ "The Royal Scottish Geographical Society shall, during the pleasure of the Secretary for Scotland, remain in undisturbed possession of the rooms at present occupied by them in the National Portrait Gallery."—(Mr. Morton.)—
§ Brought up, and read the first time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."
§ MR. PIRIE,in supporting the clause, expressed the hope that the Scottish Geographical Society would receive better treatment than they had received in the past. No society had done more useful work than the Scottish Geographical Society, and no body had been more shamefully treated.
§ MR. DALZIELsaid he had a good deal of sympathy with the present position of the Scottish Geographical Society. The question now before the Committee was whether the Bill should provide that the society should continue in its present offices without disturbance. There was no question of cost. His hon. friend had only asked for an assurance that some consideration should be given to the claim of this society to remain in undisturbed possession of the rooms they now occupied. He would suggest to the Secretary for Scotland whether he could not give an undertaking that in his official capacity he would send a communication to the new authority laying before them the claims of the society.
§ *MR. BUTCHER (Cambridge University)said he was one of the trustees of the Scottish Geographical Society, and as such he desired to say a word in support of the appeal made by hon. Members opposite. Not only had the society done remarkable work of a national character, but in its rooms was housed a very admirable library, which was consulted by people from all parts of Scotland and by many colonial people also. He believed it would be a real national loss if the society were liable to be summarily ejected from its rooms and to lose the use of that library.
§ MR. SINCLAIRassured his hon. friends that there was not the least reason to think that the transference of the powers of the old Board of Manufactures to the new authority would be 885 in any way hostile to the interests of the Scottish Geographical Society. They were not yet possession of materials which could enable them to pass judgment on the question of whether or not this Society deserved financial support from the Government. He appealed to his hon. friends not to prejudge the matter at present. It was a mere accident that the Scottish Geographical Society now occupied rooms in the National Portrait Gallery, and he did not think it would be a businesslike proceeding to fetter the new authority with any conditions of the kind proposed. They should not confuse the issue raised by the Bill with that of the welfare of the Scottish Geographical Society. The claims of the society could be considered on their merits at the proper time, and he was sure those claim would have much better prospect of favourable consideration at the proper time than they could have at the present moment. He begged the friends of the Scottish Geographical Society to be content to-day with the very emphatic testimony which, had been given to the public appreciation of their work in Scotland.
§ MR. PIRIEsaid he would be willing to fall in with the appeal of the Secretary for Scotland on the distinct understanding that when the society did make a claim for further consideration they would be treated in a different manner from that in which they had been in the past by the Government.
§ MR. DALZIELregretted the right hon. Gentleman had not been able to make the small concession asked for.
§ MR. RAINY (Kilmarnock Burghs)asked the Secretary for Scotland if he would go so far as to say that, in the event of the Geographical Society being removed from its present promises, he would see that the claims of the society were pressed on the Treasury.
§ *MR. R. DUNCANsaid the Committee had had an interesting discussion, and the statement of the right hon. Gentleman had been received with general good humour. He thought, however, that he showed far too much of that caution which was generally supposed to be a characteristic of the North. He asked 886 for a definite pledge that the claims of the Geographical Society should be borne in mind and that no harm should happen to it.
§ MR. SINCLAIRsaid he could not conceive anything more likely to prejudice the position of the society than the adoption of the suggestion of his hon. friend the Member for Kilmarnock Burghs. He thought the safest course was to leave the matter where it was. He had strong sympathy with the Geographical Society, but there were other societies, and they had to consider the general interests of the community. He promised to give his most careful consideration to the claims of the Geographical Society when the proper time came.
§ MR. MUNRO FERGUSONagreed with the Secretary for Scotland that this was a matter that stood by itself. When the Scottish Estimates came up next session they could raise the whole question and endeavour to get a proper grant for the Scottish Geographical Society.
§ Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Monday next.