HC Deb 11 December 1906 vol 167 cc250-9

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]

Motion made, and Question proposed "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of the Cost of Maintenance and repair of the National Gallery and other buildings in Scotland, and of all Expenditure incurred in connection therewith under any Act of the present session to establish a Board of Trustees to manage the National Galleries of Scotland, and for other purposes; and to authorise the charge on the Consolidated Fund of an Annuity of £2,000 presently payable out of moneys provided by Parliament in pursuance of such Act"—(Mr. Sinclair.)

MR. MORTON (Sutherland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland what this was all about, what was the meaning of it, and whether the Government intended to pass it through the House if objection was taken to it.

THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. Sinclair,) Forfarshire

said that this was money which had hitherto been voted annually. It was placed on the Votes in accordance with the Act of Union. Part of the work the National Gallery proposed to carry out would be carried out by means of moneys that would be placed on the Consolidation Fund, and the Resolution now before the Committee was to carry that out.


said the Secretary for Scotland in his reply had only referred to the £2,000 paid under the treaty of Union, and no Resolution was necessary for the continuance of that. The reason this Resolution was brought in was because funds were going to be authorised out of the Treasury which now came from another source. In view of the very serious financial statements which were on the Paper to-day he would ask the right hon. Gentleman if he could say what was the total charge involved.


said he was unable to give either the total charge or the details. Under the Bill the Treasury had

undertaken certain expenses hitherto borne by Scottish money. Part of the new arrangement come to was that the expenses of maintenance of building should now be borne entirely by the Treasury. This Resolution was to make good that arrangement, and to enable the consideration of the Bill to be proceeded with on Friday next.


complained that the right hon. Gentleman had moved a Resolution involving a considerable amount of public money, and had had the audacity to admit that he could neither state the total amount involved nor give the details. In order to protect the House against this method of legislation, and to ensure that when a responsible person on behalf of the Government came forward with a Resolution to commit the House of Commons to the payment of a large sum of money he should at all events be able to give the rough total and some ideas as to details, he begged to move to report progress, and ask leave to sit again as a protest against this way of conducting the business.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report progress; and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. William Rutherford.)

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 31 Noes, 210. (Division List No. 490.)

Anson, Sir William Reynell Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Starkey, John R.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Hamilton, Marquess of Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Hunt, Rowland Thomson. W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Balcarres, Lord Keswick, William Valentia, Viscount
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N) Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S. Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Lonsdale, John Brownlee Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Marks, H. H. (Kent) Younger, George
Carlile, E. Hildred Morpeth, Viscount
Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W. Nield, Herbert Tellers for the Ayes—Mr.
Courthope, G. Loyd Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Watson Rutherford and Mr.
Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.) Sloan, Thomas Henry Claude Hay.
Craik, Sir Henry Smith, F.E. (Liverpool, Walton
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Burke, E. Haviland-
Acland, Francis Dyke Beaumont, Hn. W.C.B.(Hexh'm Burns, Rt. Hon. John
Agnew, George William Benn, W. (T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo. Burnyeat, W. J. D.
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Bertram, Julius Byles, William Pollard
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Billson, Alfred Cairns, Thomas
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Boland, John Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Brace, William Cawley, Sir Frederick
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Brodie, H. C. Cheetham, John Frederick
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Brooke, Stopford Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.
Barnard, E. B. Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeen Churchill, Winston Spencer
Clancy, John Joseph Hudson, Walter Rainy, A. Rolland
Clough, William Illingworth, Percy H. Reddy, M.
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Johnson, John (Gateshead) Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Cogan, Denis J. Jones, Leif (Appleby) Redmond, William (Clare)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Jowett, F. W. Renton, Major Leslie
Condon, Thomas Joseph Joyce, Michael Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th)
Corbett, CH.(Sussex, E. Grinst'd Kennedy, Vincent Paul Richardson, A.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Kincaid-Smith, Captain Rickett, J. Compton
Cory, Clifford John Laidlaw, Robert Ridsdale, E. A.
Cowan, W. H. Lambert, George Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln)
Crean, Eugene Lamont, Norman Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Dalziel, James Henry Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Davies, David (Montgomery Co. Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich Robinson, S.
Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Levy, Maurice Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lewis, John Herbert Russell, T. W.
Delany, William Lough, Thomas Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Lundon, W. Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Lupton, Arnold Scarisbrick, T. T. L.
Dobson, Thomas W. Lyell, Charles Henry Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne
Dolan, Charles Joseph MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Seely, Major J. B.
Donelan, Captain A. MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) Shackleton, David James
Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.) Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) M'Arthur, William Sheehy, David
Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall M'Callum, John M. Sherwell, Arthur James
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) M'Crae, George Shipman, Dr. John G.
Elibank, Master of M'Kean, John Silcock, Thomas Ball
Erskine, David C. M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Simon, John Allsebrook
Essex, R. W. M'Micking, Major G. Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Evans, Samuel T. Manfield, Harry (Northants) Smyth, Thos. F. (Leitrim, S.)
Farrell, James Patrick Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) Soares, Ernest J.
Fenwick, Charles Meagher, Michael Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Ferens, T. R. Meehan, Patrick A. Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Ffrench, Peter Micklem, Nathaniel Sullivan, Donal
Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Mooney, J. J. Summerbell, T.
Findlay, Alexander Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Flavin, Michael Joseph Morrell, Philip Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Fuller, John Michael F. Morse, L. L. Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E
Fullerton, Hugh Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Toulmin, George
Gilhooly, James Murnaghan, George Ure, Alexander
Gill, A. H. Murphy, John Verney, F. W.
Ginnell, L. Nannetti, Joseph P. Walsh, Stephen
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent
Goddard, Daniel Ford Nicholls, George Ward, W. Dudley(South'mpt'n>
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Nolan, Joseph Wason, John Cathcart( Orkney)
Gulland, John W. Norman, Sir Henry Watt, H. Anderson
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid. Whitbread, Howard
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) White, George (Norfolk)
Halpin, J. O'Doherty, Philip White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Haworth, Arthur A. O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Hayden, John Patrick O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Healy, Timothy Michael O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n
Hedges, A. Paget O'Grady, J. Williamson, A.
Helme, Norval Watson O'Hare, Patrick Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.
Hemmerde, Edward George O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Henry, Charles S. O'Malley, William Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.) Paul, Herbert Winfrey, R.
Higham, John Sharp Paulton, James Mellor
Hobart, Sir Robert Pirie, Duncan V. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Hogan, Michael Power, Patrick Joseph Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Holland, Sir William Henry Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh.Central) Pease.
Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset N. Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.)
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Radford, G. H.

Original Question again proposed.


said he asked just now whether before getting the money the Government intended to press this Bill through at al costs.


We are merely on the Resolution now, and not the Bill.


said this was the Resolution asking for money, and he would ask if he were not entitled to ventilate grievances.


The hon. Member must take notice of the rules of order. In this case we are not considering the Bill but a money Resolution.


said that without that money they could not get on, and he objected to getting this money to-night until the questions he had put had been answered. They had not yet had a chance of discussing the matter. They had never had a Second Reading debate, and now apparently there was an attempt to push it through at all costs without debate or Amendment.

MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs),

hoped his hon. friend would not persist in his observations, because it was rather unjust to Scotland at this late period of the session, when at last something at all events was being brought forward of some interest to the country, that they should protest against its being taken, more especially as money was involved. He did not think his hon. friend would be abandoning any principle by accepting all the money the Government were prepared to give, and he hoped he would not press his opposition at this stage.

MR. CLAUDE HAY (Shoreditch, Hoxton)

thought the Secretary for Scotland might have obtained the desired information during the opportunity that was afforded by the division on the Motion to report progress. This Resolution did not appear on the Order Paper.


said it was quite unusual to put these Motions on the Order Paper, so that hardly formed a proper subject of complaint.


said it was all the more incumbent upon the Minister in charge to give some information. Was the Committee of the House of Commons to be assembled at midnight in order that the Secretary for Scotland should propose money Resolutions without informing the Committee what was the capital sum involved? If the right hon. Gentleman could not give after ten months even the slightest indication of how much money he was proposing should be devoted to the purpose of the National Gallery of Scotland, either the right hon. Gentleman must be very inartistic, or—if he would allow him to say so—veiy incompetent.


said he would endeavour to repeat the explanation which he had purposely made very brief at that hour of the night. The money Resolution the Committee were now considering consisted of two parts. It was necessary because the Bill involved an extra expenditure of public money. The first part authorised the expenditure out of Votes in connection with the National Gallery of Scotland. These charges amounted last year to something between £3,000 and £4,000, but it was not possible to tell precisely what the extra charge under this head would come to, and it was not possible on that occasion to go into the details of the proposals in the Bill. The charges were perfectly simple and of a routine character. Some of the maintenance charges of these buildings had been paid hitherto out of income of the Board of Manufactures in Scotland. Some of these charges would be borne by the Treasury. Another charge was that for the maintenance of a new building to be purchased for the use of the Royal Society. These charges would not be excessive; they would be usual charges, and would be open to the scrutiny of the House of Commons. Therefore he did not think fears need been tertained with regard to them. The second part of the Resolution dealt with the placing of an annuity of £2,000 which had been hitherto voted by Parliament fur this purpose. The Government thought they were right in following the recommendation of the Committee which inquired into this matter, that this annuity should be placed upon the Consolidated Fund. He did not think it would be in order to enter into details as to the proposals they could be discussed in detail on the Committee stage of the Bill, which had already passed Second Reading, Everything would then be made plain to hon. Members opposite so far as it was in his power to make it plain.


said the Committee had had an extraordinary explanation of a kind from the Secretary for Scotland. In the first place the right hon. Gentleman informed them that these items were to be found in the Votes. It seemed to be a little inconsistent that the right hon. Gentleman should then tell them that hitherto the first portion had been paid out of the funds of the Board of Manufactures. If so, how was it that they had previously been in the Votes?


said the hon. Gentleman was confusing two things. The first portion of his remarks was directed to charges which would be on the Votes, and the second portion was directed to the £2,000 annuity which alone would be placed on the Consolidated Fund.


said the House had recently provided ten seats

in this House in order that the officials might attend with information for Ministers, and it seemed to be worth more than a protest on this occasion that despite those facilities the required information was not forthcoming.

MR. McCRAE (Edinburgh, E. )

moved that the Question be now put.

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 181; Noes, 18. (Division List No. 491.)

Abraham, William (Rhondda) Farrell, James Patrick Meagher, Michael
Acland, Francis Dyke Fenwick, Charles Meehan, Patrick A.
Agnew. George William Ferens, T. R. Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Allen, A Acland (Christchurch) Ffrench, Peter Morse, L. L.
Allen Charles P. (Stroud) Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Findlay, Alexander Murnaghan, George
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Flavin, Michael Joseph Murphy, John
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Fuller, John Michael F. Nannetti, Joseph P.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Fullerton, Hugh Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)
Barnard, E. B. Gilhooly, James Nicholls, George
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Gill, A.H. Norman, Sir Henry
Beaumont, Hn. W.C.B.(Hexh'm Ginnell, L. O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid.
Bonn, W. (T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo. Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Bertram, Julius Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Doherty, Philip
Billson, Alfred Gulland, John W. O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)
Boland, John Gwynn, Stephen Lucius O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Brace, William Halpin, J. O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Brodie, H. C. Haworth, Arthur A. O'Grady, J.
Brooke, Stopford Hayden, John Patrick O'Hare, Patrick
Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen) Hodges, A. Paget O'Malley, William
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Helme, Norval Watson Paul, Herbert
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Henry, Charles S. Paulton, James Mellor
Byles, William Pollard Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.) Pirie, Duncan V.
Causton, Rt Hn. Richard Knight Higham, John Sharp Power, Patrick Joseph
Cheetham, John Frederick Hobart, Sir Robert Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Hogan, Michael Priestley, W.E.B. (Bradford, E.)
Clancy, John Joseph Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N Radford, G. H.
Clough, William Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Rainy, A. Rolland
Cogan, Denis J. Hudson, Walter Reddy, M.
Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras, W Illingworth, Percy H. Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Johnson, John (Gateshead) Redmond, William (Clare)
Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, E. Grinstd Jones, Leif (Appleby) Renton, Major Leslie
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Joyce, Michael Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th)
Cory, Clifford John Kennedy, Vincent Paul Richardson, A.
Cowan, W. H. Laidlaw, Robert Rickett, J. Compton
Croan, Ergene Lamont, Norman Ridsdale, E. A.
Dalziel, James Henry Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich) Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Davies, David (Montgomery Co. Levy, Maurice Robinson, S.
Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Lewis, John Herbert Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lough, Thomas Russell, T. W.
Delany, William Lupton, Arnold Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Lyell, Charles Henry Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapal)
Dobson, Thomas W. MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Scarisbrick, T. T. L.
Dolan, Charles Joseph MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) Scott, A. H. Ashton-under-Lyne
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness MacVeagh, Chas. (Donegal, E.) Seely, Major J. B.
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) M'Arthur, William Shackleton, David James
Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall M'Callum, John M Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) M'Crae, George Sheehy, David
Elibank, Master of M'Laron, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Sherwell, Arthur James
Erskine, David C. M'Micking, Major G. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Essex, R. W. Manfield, Harry (Northants) Silcock, Thomas Bill
Evans, Samuel T. Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Simon, Join Allsebrook
Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John Verney, F. W. Williamson. A.
Smyth, Thos. F. (Leitrim, S.) Walsh, Stephen Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Soares, Ernest J. Ward, W. Dudlcy (Southampt'n Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Sullivan, Donal Watt, H. Anderson Winfrey, R.
Taylor, John W. (Durham) Whitbread, Howard
Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) White, Luke (York, E. R.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E White, Patrick (Meath, North) Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Toulmin, George Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Ure, Alexander Willams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n
Arkwright, John Stanhope Hamilton, Marquess of Starkey, John R.
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Hunt, Rowland Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Balcarres, Lord Keswick, William Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Carlile, E. Hildred Marks, H. H. (Kent) Watson Rutherford and Mr. Claude Hay.
Courthope, G. Loyd Morpeth, Viscount
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Nield, Herbert

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Resolved, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of the Cost of Maintenance and Repair of the National Gallery and other buildings in Scotland, and of all Expenditure incurred in connection therewith under any Act of the present session to establish a Board of Trustees to manage the National Galleries of Scotland, and for other purposes; and to authorise the charge on the Consolidated Fund of an Annuity of two thousand pounds presently payable out of moneys provided by Parliament in pursuance of such Act."

Resolution to be reported this day.