HC Deb 01 August 1906 vol 162 cc1118-27

Postponed Proceeding on Consideration of Third Resolution resumed.

Question again proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

*DR.COOPER,

resuming his speech, said the Commissioners had placed upon them the duty of inspecting the plans for new asylums and for alterations of existing buildings. In connection with that work they had an architectural adviser. He had not the slightest personal knowledge of that gentleman, and it was the system which had grown up in connection with plans to which he objected. The architectural adviser of the Commissioners was a gentleman whose own professional work was very largely, almost exclusively, confined to the erection of asylums. The general complaint had been that unless the asylums committees of county councils engaged either the architectural adviser of the Commissioners, or an architect whose name appeared on a small list kept by them, great delay took place in the passing of the plans, and that the plans were unduly criticised. Not only was that the case, but if an asylums committee engaged the architect who was adviser to the Commissioners, or an architect whose name appeared on the Commissioners' list, he invariably tried to select the contractor. County councils all over England complained that they were in this way deprived of competition in obtaining both architects and contractors. In support of this statement he read an extract from speeches delivered at the annual meeting of the County Councils Association in May last year. This was a very serious matter, and he thought the Home Secretary should consider whether the time had not arrived when the architectural adviser of the Commissioners should be an architect who would devote his whole time to the duties of the office. His own experience as a Member of the Special Committee of the London County Council appointed to prepare plans for its new asylums brought him into close connection with the Lunacy Commissioners, and he could testify that a great deal of what he regarded as unnecessary delay was caused through plans being sent back time after time with inquiries and suggestions as to trifling details. The County Council had just finished the asylum at Epsom, when the Commissioners all of a sudden said that if they did not at once build another asylum, the replica of an asylum recently built by the Commissioners' architect, the Council would be reported for default to the Home Secretary. They had a rather weak-kneed chairman at the time, and unfortunately he gave way to the demands of the Commissioners, and this put several thousand pounds into the pocket of the architectural adviser of the Commissioners. He had known the Commissioners' architect have three or four asylums on his hands at the same time. He complained of the growing tendency to send aged people into asylums. The figures in regard to this were extremely startling. In 1903–4 there were 1,445 people over seventy years of age sent into asylums as lunatics, though suffering from senile degeneration and nothing more. There were 18 per cent. of the men and 24 per cent. of the women over eighty. He thought this was one of the things confined to the poor. The whole of these people ought to have been kept in workhouses. There was one woman on the verge of 100 years of age included in the number to which he had referred, and it was a scandal that she should have been sent to die in an asylum. There ought to be some inquiry into the increase of lunacy, and also into the way in which old people were treated. He was dining recently with an eminent lunacy expert who, in an after-dinner speech, said that if rich men were treated in exactly the same way as many of the poor people a third of the Members of another House would die in lunatic asylums. The percentage of discharges of recoveries was entirely in favour of the wealthy. It was, therefore, his desire to press upon the Home Secretary the appointment of a Commission to investigate into the condition of things. During the last fifty years great advances had been made in the science of medicine and of surgery which had been to the great advantage of mankind; but no improvement had been made in the treatment of lunacy; and until an inquiry into the present treatment of lunatics and the whole conditions under which these poor people were maintained at the cost of £3,000,000 per annum had been instituted there would be no improvement in the treatment of lunacy. He admitted that under the Asylums Committees of the County Councils matters had been much improved; the treatment was better, and the attendants were of a better type. But still, the percentage of cures had gone down, and the knowledge of the essential nature of insanity and its causes or its prevention was no better to-day than it was a hundred years ago. Until a more scientific investigation was made into the cause of brain disease there would be no better means of cure forthcoming. The London County Council had asked for Parliamentary powers to establish receiving houses from which they removed patients after observation to the asylums and Parliament had rejected their Bill. He invited the Home Secretary to place England more on the level with the Scottish system of Lunacy Commissioners which was infinitely better than that in this country. Another thing which he desired was that provision should be made for a visiting staff from. the outside. Wherever that had been recognised it had been found to be of the greatest value; and, as a matter of fact, the principle of a visiting staff from the outside had received the support of the Local Government Board, of the Lunacy Commission, and even of the late Lord Chancellor—which was something extraordinary ! When the New York Board of Lunacy heard of the scheme for receiving houses they had sent over to this country a Commission to make inquiry as to the methods suggested here, and they were so impressed with the scheme of the London County Council that they had adopted it in New York with great success. Glasgow also sent their medical officer, who has adopted it there successfully. While London after spending years to develop a scheme which met with the approval of the most eminent members of the medical profession was yet without its municipal mental hospital. What he pressed for was inquiry by a Commission or Committee—an inquiry which had not been made for fifty years. The lunatic asylums statistics were valueless in many respects, because they were not uniform. Every asylum sent in its figures in a different shape and form; and it was impossible to arrive at a consideration of the reasons for the very serious increase of lunatics in the country.

*MR. REMNANT (Finsbury, Holborn)

said that the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had been very unfair to the Home Secretary when he accused him of wanting interest in the matter which he was discussing. He did not think that anyone who had listened to the excellent speech of the Home Secretary could accuse him of any lack of interest in any of the subjects which had been touched upon. There was, however, one point which had been omitted by the right hon. Gentleman in his review. It was a matter in regard to which every Member in the House would, he believed, be in agreement with him, and that was the desirability of giving the members of the Metropolitan Police Force one day's rest in seven, instead of only one in a fort-night. Several questions had been asked upon the point, and the right hon. Gentleman had given sympathetic answers. Sympathy was all very well, but unless it was followed up by action it was not of much value in this case. What was the present position of affairs in regard to the Metropolitan Police Force? New demands were made upon them every day, but these had been accompanied by no increase in pay. It was true that some house allowance had been made, but it was very partial in its application. For instance, one policeman living on one side of the street, might get a house allowance while another policeman living on the other side of the street did not get it. It had been said that the concession of one day's rest in seven would involve a cost of £150,000, equal to the extra employment of 2,000 members of the force; but, in the opinion of competent advisers whom he had consulted one quarter of that number would meet the demand. Nobody in the House would deny that the members of the Metropolitan Police Force were deserving of every consideration. They were a body of men with difficult duties to discharge, which they performed with great ability and with every consideration for those with whom they were brought in contact. He did not believe that the cost of granting one day's rest in seven to the force would be anything like £150,000; he thought that £50,000 would more than cover the additional expense incurred, and no one would grudge that expenditure owing to the benefits that would be conferred on the force. If the right hon. Gentleman was uncertain about the cost he asked him to appoint a Committee which would investigate the matter thoroughly, and find out what the exact amount would be. If the right hon. Gentleman took this step it would be one which he was sure he would never regret.

*MR. REES (Montgomery Boroughs)

said that the electors in the district which he represented were very much interested in the question of the appointment of factory inspectors, because many of them had houses in the Montgomery boroughs, and worked in South Wales, and he urged the absolute necessity of the appointment of such factory inspectors in Welsh mines as possessed a thorough knowledge of the Welsh language. There was a solidarity of sentiment on this subject between South, North and Central Wales. His constituents, though they seldom approached the Home Secretary, were all worthy of his attention, and he was very sure he was representing their opinion when he said that every Government Inspector in Wales should speak the Welsh language. Indeed, his constituents made it a condition of his own election that he should learn it himself, and he was doing his best to carry out their wishes. He hoped that when the right hon. Gentleman replied to the speech of the hon. Member for Bermondsey, he would realise that some notice should be taken of the great expense of maintaining lunatics, as he thought that the pockets of the ratepayers ought to he considered quite as much as the comfort of the lunatics, though the latter subject only had been brought under his notice. In the county of Montgomeryshire, which was conspicuously well administered, he was aware that the heavy charges under this head gave the county council no little occasion for thought, though it was anxious that everything in reason should be done to alleviate the lot of the unfortunate.

MR. T. F. RICHARDS (Wolverhampton, W.)

said the failure of the factory inspector was often due to the fact that he had not been a practical man. In the boot and shoe industry, in which he was engaged, he had known instances in which large deductions were made from the wages of those employed owing to the fact that the factory inspector was not acquainted with the life of those employed in the district, and especially he did not know anything about the lives of the outworkers. He ought to visit the outworker and see the conditions of his employment. He was glad that some improvement was being made in this respect, but it seemed rather a peculiar thing so far as he was concerned that some gentleman who had held the position of the manager of a particular kind of works should take a berth at £150 a year to inspect factories. It reminded him of the time when they were inspected by Army officers. Men who received less than they considered they were entitled to did not take that interest in their work that the workers ought to do, and it was important that the workers should be protected against these exactions. In regard to those who worked in the forge, the mill and the mine, he did not think that sufficient attention was given by the inspectors to the dangerous side of their work, and therefore the men did not get the protection which the law provided. He thought upon all these grounds that an inspector should have some experience as a worker. He should like to add a word with respect to female inspectors. He noticed that we had nine for the whole of the country.

*MR. GLADSTONE

It will be fifteen this year.

MR. T. F. RICHARDS

said no doubt that was a better condition of things than had prevailed hitherto, but he still thought that the number was insufficient. Fifteen lady inspectors could not perform the work and cover the whole country. He came from the town of Leicester, in which he had spent his whole life, and they had only one female inspector for 220,000 people. Very insanitary conditions prevailed in the factories, and he was satisfied that in that town alone they could find work for half-a-dozen lady inspectors.

MR. GLADSTONE

said he echoed what the last speaker had said and agreed that the number of lady inspectors was very small indeed. He also appreciated the friendly criticism of his hon. friend who had insisted upon the fact that inspectors should be able to speak the Welsh language. He was aware that it was desirable that they should do so, and he spoke from an experience both of North and Central Wales. As a matter of fact the Home Office had paid and was paying special attention to the qualifications of factory inspectors for the work which they had to do. Extraordinary chaos now prevailed in regard to the responsibility for the management and control of lunatic asylums. In regard to them he had a mere shred of responsibility. He passed the plans and sanctioned the estimates. The county councils built the asylums, the Local Government Board sanctioned the loans, and the Lord Chancellor appointed the Lunacy Commissioners. At one time the Home Secretary appointed the Commissioners, but some seventy or eighty years ago a change was made and a Bill was brought into the House of Commons and sent up to another place and became law under which the Home Secretary was deprived of the charge of the Lunacy Commissioners and the Lord Chancellor was substituted for the Home Office. Consequently the responsible functions of the Home Secretary were taken away and vested in the Lord Chancellor, and he had been left with this shred of authority. He was not in the least satisfied with the position. He was not responsible for the management of the asylums and all he had to do was to pass plans which had been pretty well settled before they came up to him. He was all in favour of an examination into the whole system of inspection and the organisation of inspection. Under the present system they had six paid Commissioners, three legal and three lay, and they had to go all over the country in pairs inspecting the lunatic asylums. It seemed to him that that system was both antiquated and absurd. The Government appointed half a dozen highly qualified gentlemen at high salaries and then they said that they were to go over the country in pairs and inspect lunatic asylums. What was the result? The result was that there was a totally in-sufficient inspection and the Department had not got the handy man who was ready at their beck and call to go and inspect a particular asylum when inspection was necessary. Instead of a system of that sort they had to arrange that two of these stately Commissioners should go down and inspect. No doubt the system was instituted when the demands on the attention of the Commissioners were not what they were now, and the knowledge on the subject was not what it was now. It seemed to him that they ought to have a qualified staff of inspectors who could be told off to do their duty at any time that was required. The Commission on the Feeble-minded was on the point of reporting, and its Report would deal largely with lunatic asylums. When that Report had been received the Government would consider what action was desirable. He had already been in communication with the Lord Chancellor on the subject. As to the cost of giving the police one day's rest in seven, he had no reason to believe that the estimate of £150,000 was inaccurate, but he would go into the matter further. He was entirely in sympathy with the proposal, but he might point out that it involved expenditure and would lead to a corresponding increase of expenditure throughout all the provincial areas. Comparing Scotland, he found that they got one Sunday off in three in Glasgow and Edinburgh. he believed there were differences in practice among the Scottish County forces, but that usually on Sunday they gave the police time off in order to attend divine service and in some cases they made it compulsory for the men to attend. If the ball was started rolling in London it would have to run all over the country, and that meant a very serious question. He had drawn the attention of the police authorities to this matter. There was a strong desire on the part of the House that progress should be made towards realising what was in the minds of hon. Members with regard to this question.

MR. T. L. CORBETT (Down, N.)

said he would like to refer to the sympathetic terms in which the right hon. Gentleman referred to the question of inspection of women workers. The returns made during the last Parliament showed that no fewer than 144,000 women and girls were left entirely outside the protection of the Factory Acts, while 88,000 only were protected by the Acts. That in itself ought to be a sufficient appeal even to anybody less sympathetic than the right, hon. Gentleman, and should make them realise that the present situation was extremely unsatisfactory. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to promise some legislation during the coming autumn in order to bring in these 144,000 women and children who were working outside the protection of the Factory Acts.

Question put, and agreed to.

Subsequent Resolutions agreed to

Postponed Resolutions agreed to.