CENSUS OF PRODUCTION BILL. (Hansard, 1 August 1906)

§ LORD BALCARRES
thought that Parliament ought to settle generally within certain limits how often this census should take place. What he wished to refer to more particularly were the last words of Clause 3 under which forms had to be prepared to give particulars with respect to production. The words of the clause were very wide indeed, and people did not like to give to Government Departments the whole particulars in a great many industrial occupations. He was aware that it was done in agriculture, but that was a very open industry and it differed entirely from the secret processes of manufacture which came under this Bill. There was the Wireless Telegraphy Act which he would give as an instance. Under that Act nobody might practice wireless telegraphy without a licence from the Postmaster-General. The result of that was that people preferred to run the risk of the penalities in some instances rather than allow the officials of a Public Department to know the secrets of their business. In this case there were certain applications of what were known as chemical physics which were extremely precious and which it was quite unnecessary that a Government Department should investigate. If the compiling of these returns was carried out in any hostile or inquisitorial spirit the value of them would be absolutely nil. As the object of this Bill was purely statistical the measure ought not to be put in this general form. It was like the ordinary Board of Trade Return, but it was placed in a more extended form and in carrying it out he trusted the President 1172 of the Board of Trade would not keep it in such a vague and extended form because that might defeat the object he had in view. There was a great deal of anxiety about this Bill in industries which were now in their infancy. There was one particular company which was doing much useful work in the development of wireless telegraphy, and he was sure they would suffer all the penalites rather than make returns about their business. He would suggest that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee.

§ MR. STUART
said he hardly needed to say anything but ditto to what the noble Lord had said. The object of the Bill was to obtain statistical information as to the course of trade apart from exports and imports. There were many details that did not come under the statistics required. He desired to second the appeal which had been made by the noble Lord that this Bill before it became law should go before a Select Committee. He thought that would calm the fears which some of them felt and he hoped that course would be taken by the Government.

MR. T. M. HBALY
regarded this Bill as a great invasion of public liberty. There was no necessity for it and no case had been made out for it, and it was a deplorable thing that such a Bill should come on during the dying hours of the session. He regretted that this Bill should have been moved without a word of explanation from the Board of Trade or any indication of the nature of its provisions showed the extraordinary state of things which, the House of Commons could come to during the hot weather of the month of August. Supposing the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham had been President of the Board of 1173 Trade and by a measure of this sort he had got into his hands the possibility of prying into the secrets of the trade and commerce of the men of Birmingham. What would have been said about it by hon. Gentlemen opposite? Where was the necessity for this and where was the demand for it? They were simply sacrificing their liberty to a gang of clerks in Downing Street. Every plumber or every man who was employed upon a building job would be expected, under this Bill, to spend hours making a public return or run the risk of being fined £10. Who wanted this return? They were told that manufacturers were flourishing and that free trade was triumphant all over the land. This was an extraordinary illustration of the use the Government were making of their power to compel every man to make a return of his business. This Bill lent itself to oppression of every kind. The Government if they could save a single farthing on any orders would send their orders to Germany instead of to Ireland; would the Government send an inspector to Ireland to ascertain why Irish industries were languishing?

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OP TRADE (Mr. LLOYD-GEOKGE, Carnarvon Boroughs)
assured the hon. and learned Gentleman that it was not the case that he did not wish to defend the measure. The hon. and learned Gentleman was not correct in saying that there was no demand for the Bill. The Chambers of Commerce had passed a unanimous resolution in favour of an inquiry of this character. When the Bill was first introduced there was no voice raised against it, but the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham got up and supported it, expressing the hope that 1174 it would be passed this session. His hon. and learned friend had rather exaggerated the dangers of the Bill; he said bids was an experiment which had not been tried anywhere before. As a matter of fact this was a system which had been in operation in the United States for fifty rears. It had been exceedingly successful there. In Australia a similar Bill had been passed. He thought it would be desirable before the Bill passed the House of Commons that the rules to be prescribed should be laid on the Table if the House, so that anyone would have the opportunity of scrutinising them and moving the excision of any particular part of them. He had received a deputation of traders who expressed the wish that the clause should be modified, and he was able to remove their apprehensions. What he proposed to do was, under the general powers taken in the Bill, to set up a Committee representing trades and industries for the purpose of settling; these forms. He thought that would be much better than the appointment of a Select Committee of the House of Commons. The Committee would take into account all the points raised by the hon. Members who had taken part in this discussion. The noble Lord had expressed anxiety lest secret processes should be divulged. He could not imagine that any Committee of that character would frame regulations in such a way as to invite traders to divulge their secret processes to any Government Department. What they wanted, to know was the aggregate of the home trade. They knew the export trade in the details divulged to the Customs. At present their information with regard to home trade was more or less a matter of conjecture. While one man would say that it was £800,000,000, another would 1175 say that it was £1,500,000,000 what they wanted was to ascertain the actual facts in regard to our industries from decade to decade. Hon. Members might rest assured that there was no desire to have an inquisition of any sort into the trade of any man.

§ LORD BALCARRES
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman would consider the propriety of making the Committee statutory.

§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGE
said he was prepared to consider that suggestion.

§ MR. JOHN O'CONNOR (Kildare, N.)
said he had heard some objections stated by an hon. Member to the proposal in the Bill to obtain returns in regard to the various trades of the country. The right hon. Gentleman boasted of his ignorance of figures; but that was one of the exaggerated statements which the right hon. Gentleman made when he wanted to score a point. He himself was rather fond of figures both for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and he hoped that the President of the Board of Trade would get all the statistics possible, and have hem arranged in an admirable manner. A short time ago he had received a most interesting return on all the industries in the State of Massachusetts which he would be glad to put into the hands of the right hon. Gentleman. Complaint had been made about the want of statistics of the trade of Ireland. It was true that the trade of Ireland had been practically wiped out more than a century ago, and that they did not know much about it. They were short of official statistics both under the old Irish Parliament and since the Union.