§ MR. DILLONI beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the pledge given by the hon. Member for Dover, on July 1st, 1903; and whether, in pursuance of that pledge, he will not publish the instructions and orders to the Estates Commissioners contained in the letters received by them from the Irish Executive, and which instructions and orders are referred to in the Report of the Commissioners as controlling their action equally with the Act of Parliament.
§ MR. WALTER LONGThe statement made by my right hon. friend on the occasion referred to was that "he had not yet decided on the exact form of publication, but he agreed that the regulations should come before the House in some way." The regulations in question were those which are provided for by Section 23, Sub-section 8, of the Act. As I have already repeatedly stated, no such regulations have yet been made.
§ MR. DILLONDid the right hon. Gentleman, in making the promise to the House, refer to any proposal to issue secret regulations?
† See (4) Debates, cxxxvii., 1485.‡ See (4) Debates, cxxxix. 724.
§ MR. WALTER LONGSo far as I am aware, no secret regulations have been made. There have been communications between the Estates Commissioners and the Government, but these are always treated as confidential. I have promised, and intend to keep the promise, to lay the regulations on the Table as soon as possible.
§ MR. DILLONWas it not the impression of the House, on July 1st, 1903, that all orders and regulations issued by the Irish Executive to the Estates Commissioners should be laid on the Table?
§ MR. WALTER LONGI cannot possibly say what the impression of the House was. My right hon. friend promised that the regulations, when issued, should be published. None have yet been issued, but they will shortly be issued, as they are now practically complete. I have done my best to hasten their publication, but they deal with questions of great difficulty and delicacy, and it is necessary that they should be very carefully drawn. I certainly have issued no secret regulations.
§ MR. DILLONI beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what are the reasons for keeping secret the instructions and orders contained in the letters received by the Estates Commissioners; and whether the Irish Government propose to continue the practice of issuing secret instructions and orders to the Estates Commissioners.
§ MR. WALTER LONGSir, the reason is that these memoranda were of a, Departmental and confidential character. I may repeat what I have already more than once stated, that inasmuch as the Department of the Estates Commissioners is a branch of the Executive Government, communications of a Departmental character must necessarily pass from time to time between the Commissioners and the Government, which, like all other communications of an inter-Departmental character, are treated as confidential, in accordance with well-established practice, and, as such, will not be published. The issue of instructional orders or regulations of the nature contemplated by 340 statute is, however, on a different footing, and I have already undertaken to lay such regulations, when settled, on the Table of the House.
§ MR. DILLONThat is not a sufficient Answer to my Question whether the Government propose to continue the practice of issuing secret regulations?
§ MR. WALTER LONGI have stated that I am not aware that the Government has issued secret orders. Communications are always passing between the Executive and different branches of the Government, but secret orders have not, to the best of my knowledge, been issued, and certainly not by me.
§ MR. DILLONThe Attorney-General said that in the correspondence with the Commissioners there were contained instructions and orders; and they must be secret because you refuse to communicate them to the House.
§ MR. WALTER LONGThe word "instructions" may be interpreted in different ways. As far as I know, nothing in the nature of regulations governing the general action of the Commissioners has been issued by the Government. When the Commissioners applied to the Government in regard to the administration of the Act, the Government, as in duty bound, gave advice; but it is the invariable practice to regard such communications as confidential.
§ MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)Then are we to understand that for eighteen months the Land Act has been worked on the basis of communications with the Executive Government?
§ MR. WALTER LONGThe Member can understand what he likes. I cannot alter my Answer that no regulations have yet been issued. As soon as regulations are issued they will be laid on the Table; and I undertake that they shall not be altered or varied except by new regulations, which will also be laid on the Table.
§ MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford)But the Commissioners in their Report refer to regulations overruling them. 341 Are we not entitled to see those regulations?
§ MR. WALTER LONGI should say no, Sir. That is not the question we ale now speaking of—namely, the issue of regulations for the general instruction of the Commissioners. They will be issued, and as soon as they are ready they will be laid upon the Table of the House.
§ MR. DILLONI wish to submit a point of order. I wish to ask whether we are not entitled to obtain from the Government the instructions which are referred to in the Report of the Estates Commissioners submitted to the House of Commons. We have been informed by the Attorney-General for Ireland that these instructions were contained in written letters. We were assured in this House that we should have full information to enable us to criticise the Report of the Commissioners.
§ THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON, Londonderry, N.)said that his observation referred only to the evicted tenants' question.
§ MR. DILLONThat is a most important admission. We now know that written instructions were given in reference to the action of the Commissioners in regard to reinstating the evicted tenants. We have the Report of the Commissioners stating that their operations were controlled by the instructions they received. Are we not entitled to obtain from the Government those instructions referred to in the Report?
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI do not think that is a question of order. It is a matter for argument in debate, but there is no authority in the Chair to compel the production of these instructions.
§ MR. JOHN REDMONDIs it not the practice that a Minister cannot quote from a document without producing it? Are we not entitled to have this document produced?
§ MR. DILLONCertainly; it is quoted in the Report of the Commissioners.
§ MR. JOHN REDMONDIt is not a question of quotation by a Minister, I admit. It is a quotation of a document by the Estates Commissioners in their Report, and I submit that the same rule applies to this as to quotations by Ministers.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI do not think the rule can be carried as far as that. The rule is a well-ascertained one. If a Minister in this House quotes for the purposes of argument one or more sentences from a document he is bound to produce the whole document.
§ MR. JOHN REDMONDIn this case a Minister has presented to the House a Report in which reference is made to other documents. I say that the rule therefore applies.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLIn the Report of the Estates Commissioners, who are responsible to and controlled by this House, there is a distinct reference to the instructions received by them from the Government. The Attorney-General says he gave the advice to the Government on which the Commissioners acted. I think we ought to have the whole case before us.
§ MR. DILLONThe Commissioners say that their proceedings under Section 23 have been regulated by the provisional rules and the instructions received from time to time from his Excellency the Lord-Lieutenant. Yet Ministers tell us no instructions have been given. I think we are entitled, at any rate, to an explanation of this extraordinary contradiction between Ministers and the statement in the Report presented to the House by the Estates Commissioners.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI see no reason for altering my decision. There has been no quotation by a Minister from a particular document, and the rule only applies to that.
§ MR. BLAKE (Longford, S.)Surely the action of the Commissioners up to 343 the present must have been regulated by some instructions, and if we are entitled to have the regulations which are now in preparation to regulate the action of the Commissioners in the future, we are equally entitled to have those by which they have been regulated in the past.
§ MR. WALTER LONGAnd my answer is that there have been no regulations issued as contemplated by the Act up to the present, but there have been constant communications between the Executive and the Commissioners, and it would be an unheard of departure from practice to disclose such communications.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLThen does the right hon. Gentleman wish the Estates Commissioners to correct their Report?
§ [No Answer was returned.]