HC Deb 31 May 1905 vol 147 cc357-61


Order read, for resuming adjourned debate, on Question [17th May] "That the Bill be now read a second time."

Question again proposed.

MR. RUNCIMAN (Dewsbury)

said he did not propose to add anything to the remarks he was making when the Bill was last under discussion, except once more to enter his protest against men engaged by the Admiralty or other Government Departments in civil employment being brought under the Naval Discipline Act.


said that since this Bill was debated some days ago the objection then taken had been considered by the

Admiralty, and they had come to the conclusion that there was no necessity to put the hired crews of the vessels concerned under the Naval Discipline Act at all, except in case of war, in which event special measures would be open to the Admiralty. Therefore, the Bill was really one to enable the Admiralty to make regulations to govern these ships and their hired crews in peace time. In view of the opinion expressed in the House, the Admiralty were prepared to withdraw all reference to the Naval Discipline Act. They now proposed only to take power to apply all or any of the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act, and, in addition, to make regulations for one purpose only, to which the Merchant Shipping Act was not applicable, viz., to provide these ships with proper crews. In Committee Amendments would be introduced in the direction he had indicated, and any others that might be placed on the Paper could be then discussed. He hoped that with that understanding the House would give the Bill a Second Reading. As Amendments would be made in Committee there would of necessity be also a Report stage, and it would be much more convenient to discuss matters of detail in Committee than on the Second Reading.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 201; Noes, 164. (Division List, No. 190.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn. Hugh O. Baird, John George Alexander
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Arrol, Sir William Balcarres, Lord
Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)
Allsopp, Hon. George Bailey, James (Walworth) Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds
Anson Sir William Reynell Bain, Colonel James Robert Banbury, Sir Frederick George
Banner, John S. Harmood- Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury Muntz, Sir Philip A.
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Bartley, Sir George C. T. Grenfell, William Henry Myers, William Henry
Bignold, Sir Arthur Gretton, John Parker, Sir Gilbert
Bill, Charles Gunter, Sir Robert Parkes, Ebenezer
Bingham, Lord Hain, Edward Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Pemberton, John S. G.
Bond, Edward Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry Percy, Earl
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford Pierpoint, Robert
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hare, Thomas Leigh Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Brotherton, Edward Allen Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Brymer, William Ernest Heaton, John Henniker Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bull, William James Helder, Augustus Pretyman, Ernest George
Butcher, John George Hoare, Sir Samuel Pryce-Jones. Lt.-Col. Edward
Campbell, J H. M. (DublinUni. Hobhouse, Rt Hn H (Somers't, E Purvis, Robert
Carson Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Pym, C. Guy
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.) Hoult, Joseph Rankin, Sir James
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) Ratcliff, R. F.
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hozier, Hon James Henry Cecil Reid, James (Greenock)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hudson, George Bickersteth Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. Hunt, Rowland Renwick, George
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wore. Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.) Ridley, S. Forde
Clive, Captain Percy A. Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Coghill, Douglas Harry Kennaway, Rt Hon. Sir John H. Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T (Denbigh) Rothschild. Hon. Lionel Walter
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon Col. W. Round, Rt. Hon. James
Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C. R. Kerr, John Royds, Clement Molyneux
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Kimber, Sir Henry Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Corbett, A Cameron (Glasgow) Knowles, Sir Lees Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Cripps, Charles Alfred Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th Samuel, Sir Harry S (Limehouse
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Lawson, Hn. H. L. W (Mile End) Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Lawson, John Grant (yorks. N. R Seton-Karr, Sir Henry
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Farcham Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Dalkeith, Earl of Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Sloan, Thomas Henry
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Spear, John Ward
Davenport, William Bromley Llewellyn, Evan Henry Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk.
Denny, Colonel Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) Stanley, Edward Jas (Somerset)
Dickson, Robert Edmond Loyd, Archie Kirkman Stewart, Sir Mark J. M Taggart
Dickson, Charles Scott Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft Stroyan, John
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hadley
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Macdona, John Cumming Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Doxford, Sir William Theodore MacIver, David (Liverpool) Thorburn, Sir Walter
Duke, Henry Edward Maconochie, A. W. Thornton, Percy M.
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W Tollemache, Henry James
Fellowes, Rt Hn Ailwyn Edward M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir. J. (Manc'r Majendie, James A. H. Tritton, Charles Ernest
Fielden Edward Brocklehurst Malcolm, Ian Tuff, Charles
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Manners, Lord Cecil Tuke, Sir John Batty
Fisher, William Hayes Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n Walrond, Rt. Hn Sir William H.
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose Maxwell, W. J H (Dumfriesshire Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E, (Taunton
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Melville, Beresford Valentine Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne
Flower, Sir Ernest. Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Forster, Henry William Mildmay, Francis Bingham Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Galloway, William Johnson Milvain, Thomas Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)
Gardner Ernest Mitchell, William (Burnley) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn) Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir
Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets Morpeth, Viscount Alexander Acland-Hood and
Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- Morrison, James Archibald Viscount Valentia.
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Graham, Henry Robert Mount, William Arthur
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Atherley-Jones, L. Boland, John
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Barlow, John Emmott Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn
Ainsworth, John Stirling Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Brand, Hon. Arthur G.
Allen, Charles P. Benn, John Williams Brigg, John
Ashton, Thomas Gair Blake, Edward Bright, Allan Heywood
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Rea, Russell
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Hobbouse, C. E H. (Bristol, E.) Reddy, M.
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Holland, Sir William Henry Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Burke, E. Haviland- Horniman, Frederick John Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Burns, John Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Burt, Thomas Jacoby, James Alfred Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Caldwell, James Johnson, John Robson, William Snowdon
Cameron, Robert Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea Roche, John
Campbell John (Armagh S.) Jones, Leif (Appleby) Roe, Sir Thomas
Campbell, Bannerman, Sir H. Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Russell, T.W.
Causton, Richard Knight Joyce, Michael Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Channing, Francis Allston Kearley, Hudson E. Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Cheetham, John Frederick Kitson, Sir James Schwann, Charles E.
Churchill, Winston Spencer Labouchere, Henry Shackleton, David James
Clancy, John Joseph Lambert, George Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Lamont, Norman Sheehan,Daniel Daniel
Cremer, William Randal Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Crombie, John William Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Crooks, William Layland-Barratt, Francis Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Dalziel, James Henry Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan Leigh, Sir Joseph Soares, Ernest J.
Delany, William Leng, Sir John Spencer, Rt. Hn. C R. (Northants
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Levy, Maurice Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Dillon, John Lough, Thomas Stevenson, Francis S.
Doogan, P. C. Lundon, W. Sullivan, Donal
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Lyell, Charles Henry Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Duncan, J. Hastings Mac Neill, John Gordon Swift Tennant, Harold John
Dunn, Sir William Mac Veagh, Jeremiah Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower
Edwards, Frank M'Crae, George Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Elibank, Master of M'Hugh, Patrick A. Tomkinson, James
Ellice, Capt. E C (S Andrw'sB'ghs Mansfield, Horace Rendall Toulmin, George
Emmott, Alfred Mooney, John J. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Esmonde, Sir Thomas Murphy, John Villiers, Ernest Amherst
Fenwick, Charles Nannetti, Joseph P. Wallace, Robert
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Findlay, Alexander (Lanark, N E Norman, Henry Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Flavin Michael Joseph Norton, Capt. Cecil William Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)
Flynn, James Christopher Nussey, Thomas Willans Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Gilhooly, James O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset
Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)
Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E (Berwick) O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton O'Dowd, John Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Hummond, John O'Malley, William Young, Samuel
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil O'Mara, James Yoxall, James Henry
Harwood, George O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Hayden, John Patrick Parrott, William TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Partington, Oswald M'Kenna and Mr. Runcimnan.
Helme, Norval Watson Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Pirie, Duncan V.

Bill read a second time, and committed for Monday next.