§ MR. MOONEY (Dublin County, S.)said those who knew Ireland at the present time knew that a great revival was taking place there; that a new spirit had been created amongst the people of Ireland by awakening them to the beauties of their old language and literature, and their ancient position amongst the artistic nations of the world. It was his hope that this spirit might be properly developed, and that by interesting the people in these things at home, emigration, the worst curse of Ireland, might be stopped. The question of the nurture of art was one which nearly every civilised Government in Europe had recognised to be the duty of the State. That was the policy long acknowledged and acted upon in England, Scotland, and Wales with success. The English Government had officially recognised this feeling as far back as 1858, when the Treasury in a Minute defined the position. That Treasury Minute had been largely acted on in England, Scotland, and Wales, but in Ireland the matter had Teen treated in a very different manner. Let them take the case of Scotland alone and compare it with that of Ireland, and the House would see the enormous difference in the treatment of this question in Scotland and in Ireland.
In Scotland and in Ireland there were two separate art institutions. In Scotland there was the National Gallery and the 1554 Royal Scottish Academy. In Ireland there was the National Gallery and the Royal Hibernian Academy. The point to which he desired to address himself that evening was the treatment of modern art in Ireland and Scotland, and the moment this question came to be discussed they were met by this curious difference between the two countries, namely, that, although Scottish Members had over and over again alleged that the position of modern art in Scotland was not satisfactory, the position there was far and away better than, and not to be compared with, the position of modern art in Ireland. The Royal Scottish Academy was derived from three different sources. It derived its establishment and buildings from the Corporation of Edinburgh, it got a grant from the Scottish public funds, and a grant also from the Imperial Treasury. The modern side of art in Ireland was established by the Royal Hibernian Academy, which was itself established in 1826. That Academy had no grant whatever from any public fund. In 1826 a solicitor of Dublin named Johnson bequeathed his establishment and its buildings to the Royal Hibernian Academy, and the latest valuation taken of the buildings was £7,000. That, however, was at a time when its value had not declined so much as it had now, and to bring that valuation up to date it would be necessary to reduce it by half. That was the way in which the Scottish and the Irish Academies were founded. It might be said that the National Gallery in Ireland was extremely well off; he did not dispute it, but the Treasury Minute of 1858 laid it down that the two things should go on side by side; that when an establishment was set up for ancient art an establishment should also be set up for the accommodation of modern art. For some extraordinary reason which they had not been able to discover, that system, so far as Ireland was concerned, had not been followed, but had been deliberately set aside, so much so that some years ago an attempt was made 1555 by the Irish Local Government Board to suppress the Royal Hibernian Academy altogether, and so strangle the modern side of art institutions in Ireland.
The Royal Scottish Academy in 1902 came to the House and complained that even with the endowments that they bad they were not in a proper position to tarry on the artistic education of the nation, and asked that a further grant should be made, and for an inquiry upon two points. They said, first, that the site was not a sufficiently good site for the establishment and was not sufficiently large for the Academy school, and, secondly, that the endowment was not sufficient for the purposes of the schools teaching modern art. The Chancellor of the Exchequer of that day appointed a Committee to inquire into the fact whether the site of the Royal Scottish Academy was a fit and proper one, and secondly whether the administration was as efficient as it might be. That Committee reported that certain grants ought to be made from the Treasury to bring the Royal Scottish Academy up to date, and that the site was not in their opinion a proper site for an institution which was doing so much good work for the artistic benefit of the nation. The terms of his Motion went no further than that. It only asked that the Secretary of the Treasury would appoint a Commission to inquire into the fact whether it was not necessary to give Ireland a new site for the Royal Irish Academy, and whether the grant given was sufficiently large for the purposes of this institution. In 1903 a Bill was brought into this House entitled the Public Offices (Dublin) Bill. That Bill authorised the taking over of a large plot of land in the heart of the city of Dublin to be utilised for public offices. That Bill was referred to a Select Committee of which the hon. Member for Durham was the Chairman. Mr. Thomas Drew, the president of the Royal Hibernian Academy was, among others, examined by the Committee, and gave evidence as to the area which would be necessary for the Royal Hibernian Academy. Nothing was done then, but at the end of the inquiry the Chairman said—
I think it might go out that the question has come before us, and I should not mind saying 1556 myself that it has been shown to be very desirable, if possible, that at all events a better site should be found for the housing of the Royal Hibernian Academy.Very little evidence had been necessary to convince that Committee that the present site was not one in which justice could be done to modern art in Ireland.With regard to the second branch of his Motion he had already read to the House the amount of money which was at the disposal of the Royal Scottish Academy, which was for all purposes an identical institution with the Royal Hibernian Academy. The Royal Scottish Academy had an annual income of about £2,000, the Royal Hibernian Academy an annual income of £50. It was perfectly true that the Treasury gave them £300 a year, but before that sum was given to them, they had to bind themselves by resolution to keep up modern schools of art for which they had to pay £250. Did the hon. Member think it right to' give the Royal Hibernian Academy £50 to-keep up a school for modern art, when in Scotland they got £2,000 for the same purpose, and were not even satisfied with that. The position of affairs was one they could not understand. In Scotland it was laid down that these two things should be going on at the same time, but by one of the secret processes, the working of which they could not get at, the National Gallery in Ireland was given everything, including powers given to the director which in Scotland a director did not possess, and there was an endeavour to strangle the Royal Hibernian Academy.
He wanted also some information from the Secretary of the Treasury with regard to the College of Science. It was the intention of the Government of Ireland to build a new College of Science in Dublin. They had acquired the site, but when it came to the question of appointing an architect to draw the plans for the new college an Englishman was appointed to do the I work, while at the same time they went to Scotland for a clerk of works. He thought the Secretary of the Treasury ought to have made a purely Irish job of this. There were many Irish architects who would have drawn equally good if not better plans 1557 and it was not necessary to get the services of either an English architect or a Scotch clerk of works. Ireland objected to undesirable alien immigration just as strongly as England, and, when they had people in Ireland who were as well or better qualified to do the work, they objected to the English and Scotch aliens being imported into the country to take the bread out of Irish mouths. As he had said, they had acquired the site for the new College of Science in one of the best parts of Dublin, and were now going to pull down some of the best old houses in that city and in their place erect the new College of Science. But in the upper part of that building they were going to house, not the College of Science, but a number of clerks from every other Government Department in Ireland, and they were going to put the College of Science in the basement. A portion of the building was also to be devoted to technical instruction, and the director of technical instruction was asked to specify what particular things he wanted. One of the things he asked for was a forge, for which, however, provision was not made, although the architect had made provision for everything else that had been asked for. He would like to know how that was going to be provided now. He would also like to know what the hon. Gentleman intended to do with the building which would be vacated by the College of Science when the new College of Science was built. He would suggest to the hon. Member that there was another institution in Dublin which was at present housed in an outlying portion of the city—the Irish College of Music—which might be housed in that building He begged to move.
§ MR. BOLAND (Kerry, S.)said he seconded the Motion of his hon. friend, who had shown so conclusively the necessity for it that he had left him very little to say upon the subject. He thought that his hon. friend had made it perfectly clear with regard to the Royal Hibernian Academy that the action of the Treasury in the past had been to cause a real set-back in the development of modern art culture in Ireland.
1558 As regarded the endowment of the Royal Hibernian Academy the amount given by the Treasury amounted to only £300 a year, out of which £250 had to go to the keeping up of the free school. The value of the site might be reckoned as equivalent to an extra £200 or £300 a year, but out of that the Academy had to pay its keeper, porter, and other fees of that kind. Making all allowances, the money which the Academy could devote to its maintenance was little over £100 a year, only £50 of which came from Government sources. Moreover, the site was not granted by the. Government as was done in the case of London and Scotland. In years past the Academy had sometimes had to depend on voluntary gifts to pay the ordinary honorarium to its President and Secretary. A site was desired near the other Art Institutions in Dublin, and in any proposal that might be made the proper autonomy of the Academy should be preserved. If Irish art was to flourish the Academy must have a free hand. It was further submitted that whatever future arrangements were made the small sum now granted should not be cancelled. These demands were. made not only by Nationalist Members, but by every shade of opinion in Ireland, and they had the support of two successive Lords-Lieutenant. It was much to be regretted that the opportunity of providing a suitable site in 1903 was not availed of. It was a curious anomaly that while the National Gallery, the School of Art, the Museum, and the Library were all together, the one institution necessary for the development of art was hidden away on the north side of the city.
In connection with the Royal College of Science a great opportunity was afforded for properly housing the Royal Academy of Music. The cultivation of music in Ireland was growing to a greater extent than at any time during the last fifty years, and the present accommodation of the Academy was altogether inadequate. The great belief in the permanence of the movement for the encouragement of art in Ireland—the language revival, the learning of folk songs and the cultivation of 1559 Irish art in all its phases—rested upon the fact that the movement sprang from the people themselves. He hoped, therefore, the Government would see their way to appoint the Commission asked for, provide a proper site for the Royal Hibernian Academy, and also see that there was no overlapping of functions on the part of the art institutions in Dublin.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That, in the opinion of this House, it is necessary in the interest of the development of modern art in Ireland to provide the Royal Hibernian Academy with a new site, and also to appoint a Commission to inquire whether the present system both of endowment and administration of this and other Art and Science Institutions in Ireland is as equitable and efficient as that of similar institutions in Great Britain."—(Mr. Mooney.)
§ MR. T. L. CORBETT (Down, N.)said it was so often the fate of Ulster representatives to differ sharply from Nationalist Members that it was a double pleasure when they found themselves able heartily to agree with them. He had often wondered why it was that Ireland, with all the natural gifts and qualities of her people, was so backward in matters affecting art. The Irish people had the gift of imagination, the romantic poetic temperament, and the love of the beautiful, and yet they had not taken a prominent place in art movements. Ireland had produced great soldiers out of all proportion to other parts of the United Kingdom, and had been prolific in the production of great orators, but she had not produced many great painters. Nor had she produced any really great poet, though there were a number of distinguished Irish poets and a school of Irish poetry which was claiming increased attention. It was commonly said that Ireland could not afford to encourage art. But Scotland, which also was a comparatively poor country, had produced many great artists, though one of the most prominent members of the Glasgow School was really an Irishman. He hoped the Commission, if appointed, would take 1560 into consideration the possibility of creating large loan exhibitions which did so much to cultivate a love of art. He heartily welcomed the Resolution and would give it his best support.
§ MR. HEMPHILL (Tyrone, N.)said that as an old citizen of Dublin he could endorse everything which had been said by previous speakers. Everybody who knew the topography of Dublin knew what a shabby and miserable abode the Academy was for one of the principal of the Muses. He wondered the representative of the Treasury did not blush when the net amount of the grant from the Government was named. He hardly agreed with the last speaker that Ireland had not produced some great votaries of painting, but they were by no means indebted to the Government patronage or to the existence of the Royal Hibernian Academy. Hogan, the sculptor, and several others might be named as showing that the Irish people had the imagination, the natural love of art, the romantic disposition and all those elements which went to uplift a material nation. They did not possess the art of making money, but they only needed fair play to excel almost every other country in Europe in producing modern artists. What was wanted by this Resolution was that the Government should institute an inquiry and provide a proper site. Dublin was rich in public buildings, but they were all built in the time of the Irish Parliament and not since that Parliament had been taken away. He hoped the discussion would lead to something being done, as the Academy at present was a standing reproach to the country. It was not reasonable that such institutions should be practically dependent on charitable subscriptions. £40,000 was given to endow the Scottish Academy. Without wishing to enter into any national rivalry, it had always seemed that Scotland took care of itself in its own quiet way, and, while the Irish were knocking at the door and vociferously demanding help, the Scotchman got in at the back and emptied the purse. As to the Academy of Music, that was wretchedly housed. He trusted that the endowment of that institution would be enlarged, because of all countries in 1561 the world Ireland ought to be productive of the greatest musicians and artists. Nothing would so far soothe and generally improve the rather depressed condition of the country as the encouragement and cultivation of music. He asked those at the British Treasury to put their hands in their pockets and give them a proper site for the Royal Academy of Music, and thus carry out the suggestion of the hon. Member for South Dublin. Irishmen believed that justice had not been done to Ireland in this matter, and that no encouragement whatever had been given to art and science in Ireland.
§ MR. HERBERT ROBERTSON (Hackney, S.), in supporting the Resolution, said that nobody could dispute that the public buildings which had been referred to were not so good as the country was entitled to demand. He considered, however, that the demand for improvement in art and science in Ireland was a modern one. [NATIONALIST cries of "No, no!"] He did not think that it had been an earnest demand until quite recent years. He thought that Ireland was now waking up to the necessity for having the opportunities for acquiring science and art decidedly improved, and he hoped there would be some improvements carried out in the buildings in which science and art were taught. There was no doubt that the public buildings which had been alluded to in Dublin were in a very bad state. Frequently he had taken people up to Dublin when visiting Ireland, and he had always been ashamed of the buildings of the Hibernian Academy. There were some fine buildings in Dublin, but the outside of the public buildings devoted to art were very shabby. A suggestion had been made that some good might be done to Ireland by a loan collection, but in his opinion Ireland was entitled to have such works of its own. He did not think it would be for the benefit of art in the United Kingdom as a whole to have the great national treasures now kept in London moved about from place to place. He thought such a course would distinctly lessen the value of London Museums. If foreigners thought that these valuable treasures were not always 1562 kept in London, but were sometimes kept at Edinburgh, Dublin, and other centres, it would do much injury to the London museums.
§ MR. T. L. CORBETTsaid he only meant that specimens of some of the great painters should be lent to other parts of the country occasionally, and he had no idea of denuding the London collections.
§ MR. HERBERT ROBERTSONsaid that, in his opinion, the taking away of a certain number of the best works would be an injury to a collection, and it would not do a corresponding amount of good to the country to which they were sent. It had been pointed out that at the present moment there was a movement on foot to increase the property of the Irish nation in works of art. It was clear, therefore, that the first step to be taken was to provide suitable buildings to receive works of art, and then it was more likely that works of art would be given to Ireland. As long as the art buildings remained in their present state there was no inducement to anyone to give works of art to Ireland.
§ MR. FIELD (Dublin, St. Patrick)said he wished to put it plainly to the hon. Gentlemen sitting on the Treasury Bench that the Hibernian Academy was a disgrace to the country. Everybody who had the slightest acquaintance with the rudiments of art must be aware of the fact that there was no encouragement whatever given to an Irish artist in Ireland. And why? Because the provision for teaching art was not sufficient. Irish artists had first of all to produce "pot boilers," and then, when celebrity came to them, they had to migrate to England. Indeed, there was no room for art production in Ireland, and the blame of starving art in Ireland was due to the policy of the British Exchequer. Scotland received forty times as much from the Treasury as Ireland did for art education. He supposed it was because the majority of Irish Members were looked upon not as art critics but political critics. Those who had visited the Academy of Music and the Royal Hibernian Academy in Dublin would at once 1563 see that the Government did not foster art in Ireland. Those acquainted with the history of Ireland could not deny that Ireland had produced a much greater crop of first-class artists in proportion to its opportunities than this country had. He hoped the Treasury would raise no objection to the terms of this Motion, because it was a very reasonable one, and ought to be granted immediately. He hoped that all the art buildings would be put together and arranged in one artistic group so that those using them would be able to visit them together. Those who had studied the question knew that art entered very largely into commercial education in Ireland. In the manufacture of lace it was admitted that in artistic design the Irish people were ahead of England and Scotland, and they only wanted the opportunity of still further developing the artistic talents which undoubtedly were to be found in the Irish people. He recommended the Chief Secretary to spend an afternoon in the so-called Royal Hibernian Academy, and he would come back convinced that the sooner it was rebuilt the better it would be, not only for Irish art, but for the reputation of the British House of Commons, which was responsible for this state of things. The policy of starvation had undoubtedly kept art back in Ireland, and that policy had been adopted by this country in regard to everything artistic in Ireland. He had much pleasure in supporting the Motion, and he hoped the Secretary to the Treasury would not offer any objection to its adoption by the House.
§ MR. WYLIE (Dumbartonshire)said that in 1902 the Scottish Members found that Scotland was not getting its fair share from the Imperial Exchequer for art. Ireland during thirty-three years had got £34,000, while Scotland during forty-five years only got £6,000. The then Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for West Bristol said that the contributions from the Imperial Exchequer for art were in proportion to the local donations, and that Scotland showed parsimony in that respect. But the Scottish Members demanded a Commission on the subject, 1564 and the investigations of that Commission proved that, on the contrary, no country in the world had been so generous in its private contributions to art as Scotland. In Edinburgh one private person had given £60,000; the city of Edinburgh had given a site for £1,000 which was valued at £30,000; and Glasgow had, during the last twenty or thirty years, expended £750,000 between private munificence and municipal enterprise upon the development of art. Out of private munificence the citizens of Glasgow had erected the finest art gallery in the world. And this was the country which was held up to ridicule not many years ago for its parsimony in connection with art. He sympathised with the demand of the Irish Members. The truth was that in grants for art London was the great monopolist.
§ MR. HUGH LAW (Donegal, W.)said that he should like very briefly to support his hon. friend in the Motion which he had brought forward. He did not think the language which had been used was at all too strong in describing the extraordinary buildings in which certain of our Science and Art Institutions were housed. Certainly he did not think that his right hon. friend had exaggerated the dinginess of the surroundings or of the edifice itself in which the Royal Hibernian Academy was to be found, nor did he think anyone had described adequately the amazing condition in which the only public institution in Dublin prosecuting the art of music was to be found- He certainly thought that the transference of the College of Science to another building afforded a very proper and obvious means of providing an institution doing most excellent work with a building which would be more suitable to its requirements. He hoped the suggestions put forward by the mover of this Amendment would be favourably received by the Treasury. It would not cost a very big sum, and it was practically all that was asked by Ireland for the encouragement of the art of music.
If the Commission asked for was appointed it should be given as wide a scope as possible so as to include 1565 not only those institutions which had been mentioned but others also. At the present time the National Library in Dublin was suffering from many quite avoidable defects. Its accommodation, whether for books or readers, was wholly insufficient. If the Secretary of the Treasury would look at the reports presented by the trustees, he would find that the growth in the number of readers in that institution had increased in the most remarkable way from year to year, and he would find that, as compared with the total population of Dublin, it compared in the most striking and favourable way with such a place as the reading-room of the British Museum. The trustees had reported that the lighting was extremely bad and the electric lamps were almost worn out, and that there was not sufficient accommodation for the books. At the present time the hall of the library was full of immense packing cases containing the proceedings of a learned society in America which had been presented by that society, but for which the Library was quite unable to find room. The accommodation for readers, especially in the evening, was wholly insufficient. He understood that the original plan contemplated the erection of a wing which had not yet been built, though the building as it stood was quite unfit for its purposes. He did not ask the Secretary of the Treasury to give any pledge on the subject; he merely pointed to these facts as showing that any Commission which might be appointed should be given sufficiently wide powers to enable it to take into consideration all the institutions of science and art in Dublin. He did not know that it ought not also to take into consideration the present constitution and working of the Royal Irish Academy. There had been in many quarters great dissatisfaction with the working of that institution. That dissatisfaction was felt not by hostile critics, but by members of the Academy, who desired that a Commission should be appointed to consider the working of the institution. He heartily supported the Motion.
§ SIR J. STIRLING-MAXWELL (Glasgow, College)said that, as a Scottish 1566 Member, he felt that he owed hon. Members opposite an apology for intervening in the debate, but he assured them that he did so in a very friendly spirit, and with every desire to help them in the important movement of which he hoped the Motion would be provocative. He felt that both Scotland and Ireland had been starved in regard to the institutions which were the subject of the Motion, but in justice to Scotland he must say chat the real difference between England and Scotland lay, not so much in the amount of money paid, as in what the character of that money was. The Scotch grant was not very large, but he thought it was equal to, if not larger than that received by Ireland, since the agitation on the question—an agitation which, he thought, had been successful. The great grievance was that the modest grant of £2,000 was not Imperial money at all, but money of which they should have, and he hoped would have, the capitalised value to spend on any building or public undertaking, while the charges now defrayed by the £2,000 a year would in decency have to be defrayed by the Treasury. In Scotland they were very grateful to Ireland for giving, a few years ago, the opportunity which led to a rather unwilling Chancellor of the Exchequer paying attention to their appeal. He could not say that either country had received anything like justice in this matter.
He did not presume to go into the details of the administration of the Irish institutions in question, but there were two things he should like to say. In the first place it was a very strange thing that in this country few people seemed to appreciate the importance of the subject, or to realise that the institutions now under discussion lay at the very root of the higher part of our commercial prosperity. If they dried up the wells of design their commercial prosperity would not be carried much further. It was of importance that every country should attend to this matter, but it was not attended to in the United Kingdom. We seemed to forget these things, but other countries 1567 did not forget them, and on the Continent, not only the capitals and great provinces, but the chief towns of every department, had institutions of which our Capitals would be very proud. In France and Italy, and even in such countries as Spain, these things were much better attended to than in this country. No people could take too much trouble in seeing that this class of institution was well managed. He did not say that these institutions in Ireland were not well managed—he believed most of them were well managed—but he did say that like institutions in Scotland had been worse managed than he had ever heard of in any country. They had a system under which one body threw a network over the great institutions of the kind included in this Motion and some others, and unfortunately it was a body of an extremely incompetent character. They had allowed these institutions to sink into a position which it was a scandal to witness. He was anxious to warn hon. Members opposite not to allow institutions of this kind to go under the management of such a body. In Scotland their institutions had sunk to an almost contemptible position through the neglect of the body who was supposed to look after them, and the effect had been that Scotland had I received in the last twenty or thirty years much less than she should have received of public money. While Ireland was getting the equivalent of private gifts their stupid governing body in i Scotland allowed such opportunities to pass. That was a warning to keep a strict eye on the governing body, and he hoped Ireland would not fall into difficulties from which Scotland was just beginning to emerge.
If a Committee was to be appointed for Ireland, he could not wish anything better than that they should have the same Chairman as they had in Scotland, namely, the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, who, by his perseverance and courage, had secured evidence and a Report which, it was to be hoped, would make a complete reform in these matters in Scotland. Some people seemed 1568 to think that matters relating to the adornment of life were, perhaps not trifling, but comparatively unimportant. He thought that was a very shallow view, and when he looked into history he felt convinced that that was the cause, why Spain, once a great commercial country, had lost its commercial greatness. These were not trifling matters, for they related in a very true sense to our national work, and to the conditions on which our commercial prosperity in a great measure depended.
§ MR. DOBBIE (Ayr Burghs)assured hon. Members from Ireland that the Scotch Members would do what they could to assist in getting this matter adequately settled. He was bound to say that the picture drawn by his hon. and learned friend gave too rosy a view of the relative financial position of Scotland and England, and perhaps even of Ireland. On some points Ireland was more favoured. He hoped that, if a Commission was appointed and there was a result favourable to Ireland, nothing definite would be done until the existing inequalities between Scotland and England had also been to some extent redressed. Reference had been made to the annual grant given to Scotland. That represented part of the repayment of a debt which was contracted at the time of the Union in return for burdens which were then imposed on Scotland, and the Report of the Departmental Committee bore out the view that in getting the £2,000 a year they were merely getting an annuity in respect of value given, and not getting a contribution from the Treasury. In regard to the £30,000 received by Scotland towards the cost of sites the House should bear in mind that it represented only a fifth of the value of the sites, and that four-fifths of the cost had come from private benefactions and the contributions of municipalities. As to the annual payment for maintenance he thought the treatment of Ireland compared favourably with that of Scotland. The figures for 1903 showed that while Ireland 1569 received several thousand pounds, Scotland only got £100. London got no less than £80,000. Looking at all these facts the House would realise that on the question of Treasury contribution Scotland had a great deal of leeway to make up before she could be said to be treated on favourable or just terms. He had received a print of a letter from Sir William Armstrong, director of the National Gallery of Ireland, in which that great authority on art said—
It is impossible to deny that Scotland, not the least artistic of the three countries governed from Westminster, has been treated very badly indeed by the central authorities. The whole blame for this must be borne by the Scottish representatives in Parliament.He was unwilling to lie under that censure any longer, and he hoped the Scottish Members would soon get an opportunity of ventilating their grievance on this question. He hoped that the Commission proposed by his hon. friend would be appointed, and that it would result in a rearrangement of the grants to Ireland and Scotland, which would remove the present inequalities and give great satisfaction to both countries in this matter.
§ MR. CUMMING MACDONA (Southward, Rotherhithe)said the Royal Hibernian Academy had carefully preserved many valuable manuscripts, and he supposed the reason why they had not preserved or published a larger number was that they had not been given sufficient money to search the libraries of the Continent, where these magnificent manuscripts were to be found, having been lodged there for safety hundreds of years ago by the great chiefs of Ireland driven from their country by the ruthless marauders who invaded their territory from here in 1641, and the subsequent risings of an indignant race, famed all over Europe for their magnificent manuscripts and illustrious literature up till then carefully preserved by themselves. The hon. Member for Dumbartonshire, and the hon. Member for the College Division of Glasgow, had talked of the liberality of the 1570 Scotch people in supporting art, and they had also borne generous testimony to the position of Ireland in this matter, but both had admitted—and they were Bill agreed in this—that both countries had been treated very illiberally in the matter. If Scotland had been treated scantily, Ireland had, so far as he could see, been treated shabbily by the paltry grant given to it. The Academy had republished the Book of Ballymote, the Book of Kells, and a number of magnificent manuscripts in their charge. These ware amongst the most magnificent productions in the world, full of the choicest gems of literature, and the rarest specimens of medieval illumination of the most brilliant and artistic description; and if funds could be provided to enable them to continue this work the House would be able to congratulate itself on having done a great deed.
§ THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH,) Derbyshire, W.said that before referring to the subject brought forward by the Resolution, he felt that he must touch on the aspersions cast on the Treasury by the mover in regard to the Royal College of Science in Dublin. In securing Sir Aston Webb as the principal architect of the Royal College of Science in Dublin, the Treasury had reason to congratulate themselves, for Sir Aston Webb had as great experience as any man in England. They had also availed themselves of the valuable services of an Irish architect. The clerk of the works, although he was by ancestry a Scotsman, had spent most of his business life in Ireland, and done a great deal of private and public work there. If they had gone outside Ireland for men in certain cases, he would point out that they were not the sole offenders in this respect. In The Times of the 2nd instant he read that the Dublin Corporation refused, by a considerable majority, to ratify the acceptance of proposed Irish contracts for cement and dustbins which were much higher than the lowest tenders. As far as was possible the Treasury would employ Irishmen and Irish materials, 1571 He was unable to state definitely that night what were their intentions with regard to the allocation of the rooms within the new building of the Royal College of Science, Dublin, but he would give his most careful consideration to the subject, and would most willingly bear in mind the suggestions which had been made from various quarters of the House.
With reference to the main portion of the Resolution, a great many comparisons had been made during the debate between Scotland and Ireland. He noticed that there was a very formidable combination between representatives of Scotland and Ireland—whatever differences otherwise they might have—to make a raid on the Treasury. The success which had attended the efforts of his hon. friends from Scotland a few years ago had been quoted as an additional inducement to continue that course on both sides of the House. He had no doubt that on the next occasion when his hon. friends from Scotland desired to make another demand on the Treasury they would receive the same amount of generous assistance from hon. Gentlemen from Ireland as they were giving that night to their Irish colleagues. But he would tell the House that the benches were not so full at that moment as they would be on Monday and Tuesday of next week when they would be discussing the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. He dared say much would be heard from hon. Gentlemen opposite about the waste and squandering of the public money by the Government in all directions. It was very easy to talk of economy, but these small sums demanded for various purposes amounted to an enormous total. As to comparisons between what had been given to Scotland and Ireland, he was not sure that they were not dangerous to Ireland, for he could adduce figures which would go to show that Ireland at that moment was receiving more than Scotland. However, he thought that those who had instituted those comparisons had not taken sufficient account of the facts of the case. He believed it had not been sufficiently present to the minds of those who had 1572 made these comparisons that much had been done by various corporations, and by private individuals.
The wish had been expressed that night that better arrangements should be made for the housing of the Royal Hiberian Academy. He thought he could take it that there was a very general agreement on that point. But there were two possible objections to which he would like to refer. In cases where an institution receiving Government aid, and bringing a certain amount of traffic to the district in which it was situated, was suddenly transferred elsewhere, there was very often a considerable outcry in the locality from I which the removal took place. He hoped he might take it that the Government would be free from attacks on that line. There had also been a good deal of criticism in the last, though he had not heard it in the case of Dublin, on plans for bringing all buildings of this nature within a small area. If anything were done to bring this academy nearer the other science and art buildings in Dublin, he hoped the Government would not be accused of improperly concentrating them in one comparatively small district.
He had given careful attention to the debate, and had noted a unanimous feeling in favour of inquiry. While unable, in any degree, to commit the Treasury to expenditure, he admitted that a case for inquiry had been made out. He was not at all sure that full value was obtained for the money expended. He, on behalf of the Government, would undertake that there should be an inquiry, though he was unable at the moment to describe the nature and scope of it. He gathered from what had been said that there was a desire that the inquiry should follow the lines of that which was held in reference to Scotland, and upon that he would consult with the Chief Secretary for Ireland and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Whether upon the Report of the tribunal the Treasury would be justified in making a further demand upon the taxpayers he could give no pledge; 1573 he would agree there should be an inquiry, and later, by private communication with hon. Members, or discussion upon the Estimates, details should be arranged. Upon this assurance he hoped the Motion would be withdrawn.
§ MR. MOONEYsaid that after the speech of the hon. Gentleman he would withdraw his Motion on the understanding that the hon. Gentleman would do his best to appoint this Committee of inquiry in the same manner as the Committee had been appointed for Scotland. As to the personnel of the Committee, he would be perfectly satisfied I if it were of the same stamp as the Committee for Scotland.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.