HC Deb 02 March 1905 vol 142 cc259-95

Motion made, and Question proposed, ''That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £550,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, for Additional Expenditure in respect of the following Army Services, viz.:—

vote 1. Pay, etc., of the Army 985,000
Vote 2. Medical Establishments, Pay, etc. 21,000
Vote 6. Transport and Remounts 265,000
Vote 7. Provisions, Forage and other Supplies 260,000
Vote 12. Miscellaneous Effective Services 2,000
Vote 14. Retried Pay, Half-Pay, and other non effective charges for Officers etc. 1,000
Vote 15. Pensions and other non effective charges for Warrant Officers, Non Commissioned Officers Men, and other 2,000
Less Surpluses on other Votes 386,000
Deduct Excess Appropriations in Aid 600,000

Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item, Vote 1, Sub-head D (Army Deferred Pay) be reduced by £100."—(Mr. McKenna.)

CAPTAIN JESSEL (St. Pancras, S.)

explained that there used to be a system in the Army under which a man when he left the colours received a large sum of money which he had accumulated at the rate of 2d. a day. He did not think the system was a good one, because, although the idea was to provide the recipient with capital upon which to start civilian life, it very seldom happened that it was devoted to that purpose. It was more generally squandered in a very short time. The system, however, was retained in order to persuade men to join the Reserve. It was necessary to have a big Reserve. He did not, however, think that this system of giving a lump sum to the men when they left the Army was a good one, and he would like to see it done away with, and the Army placed on the same level in this matter as the Navy, which had a system whereby the deferred pay of the men was given in the form of a pension. He sincerely hoped this suggestion would meet with the approval of the right hon. Gentleman, as in the opinion of many of the officers this system was neither in the interest of the service nor of the men, and could not be justified.


said the debate which had taken place about this item and the reduction which had been moved and the whole of the discussion of that afternoon, all went to show that the new system of presenting the Estimate, although it might make clear the item with which it was connected, was not very clearly understood by hon. Members of this House. He had spent all the morning trying to understand this Supplementary Vote, and until he had received that enlightenment, which was always so freely conceded by hon. Members on both sides of the House, he had failed to understand the system upon which the Estimate had been presented to the Committee. The Government had made a reduction of £104,000 last year on this item of deferred pay, and if there was an increase of £10,000 this year it was a small matter.

At this point Mr. J. W. LOWTHER left the Chair, which was taken by Mr. PRETYMAN. There were immediately cries of "Chair, Chair" from the OPPOSITION.


Captain Pretyman, may I ask you, are you a Deputy-Chairman, and have you authority to take the Chair?


The Chairman has asked me to take the Chair for one moment in his temporary absence.


You are not a Deputy-Chairman. [OPPOSITION cries of "Chair."] What right have you there?


Is it not a well-known practice of the House that any Member can take the Chair by request of the Chairman? [OPPOSITION cries of "No."]


Is there any rule by which a Member of the Government shall take the chair during a sitting of this House?


You are a Minister of the Crown. [Cries of "Leave the Chair."]


who was received with Opposition cheers, rose to a point of order, but at this juncture Mr. J. W. LOWTHER returned and again took the Chair.

MR. J. F. HOPE (Sheffield, Brihtside)

Upon a point of order, during your absence, Sir, a question was raised as to whether you had invited the hon. Gentleman to take the Chair.


That is not a point or order. There is nothing before the House.


I can easily explain the reason. For a moment I invited the gentleman who was nearest to the Chair to occupy it.


Is there any precedent for asking a Minister of the Crown?


It has generally on similar occasions been taken, I think, by a junior member of the Ministry.


said he entirely agreed with what the hon. Member who had last spoken had said with regard to the deferred pay doing a great deal of harm to the Army. Time after time he had known men of good character who wanted to serve in the Army but who left when they had a certain amount of deferred pay due to them simply because they wanted to go out on the spree. He thought the whole system had been done away with long ago, and he should like to know if, and why, it was reinstated.

*COLONEL LEGGE (St. George's, Hanover Square)

confessed that he had some difficulty in understanding these Estimates. So far as he could make out the War Office last year had underestimated the sum required for the deferred pay of the Army, and had since used certain windfalls in the shape of appropriations-in-aid to cover the loss. The hon. Member opposite had moved a reduction in the Vote for deferred pay; the object of his doing so was difficult to appreciate. He could not understand any hon. Member desiring to take away from a soldier the money which he had earned. Another thing he could not understand was why this system of deferred pay was still in force. It was introduced with the idea that it would assist in recruiting, and that at the end of his service the soldier would receive a substantial sum to help him to start in civil life. The experiment was not very successful because the soldier found himself in possession of a considerable sum, which he generally got rid of in a very short time, and the object for which the money was really saved, namely, to enable the soldier to tide over the time between his leaving the Army and getting employment, was not served. A plan was then adopted where by a soldier's money was sent to his home for him, instead of being placed in his hands, and thus subjecting him to the temptation of being led away by bad characters outside the barracks. That scheme did not have a much better effect. There was now a different scheme altogether, and he certainly thought that the Committee should have some explanation from the Secretary of State as to why this item of deferred pay appeared on the Estimates year after year, and why this year he should have asked for an increased amount. He had no desire to detain the Committee, but he was an old soldier himself, and he thought that on military questions it was desirable that old soldiers thould be heard.

*MR. RENWICK (Newcastle-on-Tyne)

said he was not sure that he understood the argument of the hon. Member who moved the reduction of the Vote; but it appeared to him it meant the repudiation of the liability of the country to pay £10,000 of deferred pay which was owing to the soldiers in India. He could not understand how those hon. Members opposite who shortly expected to appeal to the country could make such an attempt to deprive our unfortunate soldiers of the pay due to them. It might be that the system of deferred pay was bad for the Army, but that was not a question they had anything to do with that evening. He could imagine any Member moving the reduction of the Vote by £100 which provided arms, horses, or even clothing for the soldiers, because the hon. Member might imagine that the soldiers could do with so much less of these, provided they did not go too far in reducing the clothing. He insisted that if this deferred pay to the soldiers was refused it would at once increase the number of unemployed. Complaint had been made by hon. Gentlemen on the other side as to a mistake of £10,000 in the Indian accounts. When they remembered that the different depots in India were, many of them, hundreds and even thousands of miles apart, it was not surprising that some of the deferred pay accounts had not been made up owing to the carelessness of some officers. They did not expect the highest efficiency from some officers—[Loud OPPOSITION cries of "Name"]—he meant that they did not look for the highest state of efficiency in regard to accounts from some officers. [OPPOSITION cries of "Oh, oh!"] For the reasons he had mentioned he should certainly vote against the reduction, and he hoped the whole House, would do so.


said that there was one observation of his hon. friend who had just sat down that appeared to him to have been misunderstood. His hon. friend did not say that they should not look to officers for correct accounts, as one would suppose from the derisive cheers of hon. Gentlemen opposite, at any rate his hon. friend did not mean that the accounts were not correct in themselves. What he meant was that, after all, an officer was not a booking clerk; although from what he had heard from friends of his own who were colonels in the Army they were little better than booking clerks, considering the number of accounts they had to keep. [An HON. MEMBER on the IRISH BENCHES: Sit down; your majority has arrived now.] Item D of the Vote, "Army Deferred Pay," really consisted of two items, one of £90,000 for the British establishment, and the other of £43,000 for the Indian establishment. The Army Service Corps, the Royal Medical Corps, and the Colonial and Indian Stores Department were not included in the original Estimates, and therefore it was exceedingly likely that the £10,000 mistake was due to the Indian establishment and not to the English officials. He did not think it was the wisest way to recoup the soldiers for depriving them of deferred pay by increasing their daily pay. He had known soldiers who had come home with money in their pockets and had immediately wasted it upon the spot. [OPPOSITION cries of "Oh, oh!"] He did not say that they had absolutely squandered it, but had invested it at once in some small business without careful inquiry. While he thought that the deferred pay system was not a good one, yet when it was abolished it would have been much better to have given something in the way not of an old-age pension, but of a small pension after the term of service had ended. An obviously capital way of getting out of the difficulty in regard to recruiting for the Army was to increase the pensions. [At this point the right hon. Gentleman he Secretary of State for War entered the Chamber.] He was glad that his right hon. friend had come in and he would conclude.

COLONEL PILKINGTON (Lancashire, Newton)

said he was rather surprised that derogatory remarks had been made about officers who did not understand the principles of arithmetic.

MR. O'MARA (Kilkenny, S.)

said he could not see what the principles of arithmetic had to do with this Vote.


said that the hon. Member was replying to some aspersions which had been cast on certain officers.


said that as regarded this mistake of £10,000 he had heard of a Chancellor of the Exchequer who had suddenly found himself placed

in that high position, and who, when certain statistics in decimals were put before him by his officials, asked what the black dots meant. [OPPOSITION cries of "Name."] Hon. Gentlemen opposite were so intelligent that he should have thought they would have been in the position of Joseph when asked by Pharoah to interpret his dream. If hon. Gentlemen opposite, who were supposed to have a monopoly of wisdom, did not know who that Chancellor of the Exchequer was they were not worthy to sit on those benches.


invited the hon. and gallant Member to confine himself to the question before the Committee.


said he was only trying to defend the officers who had been attacked, and to show that they were not so very far behind in their arithmetic. As to deferred pay, he thought it was one of the very best things ever invented. Why should hon. Members opposite try to rob the soldiers of their hard-earned wages? They had served their country well and faithfully while hon. Gentlemen opposite refused to go out to the Boer War. Was it not absurd, considering the existing condition of unemployment, and after all that had been said about employers of labour not engaging old soldiers, to attempt to deprive them of their deferred pay? They ought to have every chance in life after the sacrifices they had made, and why, then, rob them of their deferred pay?

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 153; Noes, 179. (Division List No. 20.)

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. Burns, John Dalziel, James Henry
Ainsworth, John Stirling Buxton, Sydney Charles Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan
Allen, Charles P. Caldwell, James Delany, William
Barlow, John Emmott Cameron, Robert Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galw'y
Barran, Rowland Hirst Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Donelan, Captain A.
Boland, John Causton, Richard Knight Doogan, P. C.
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Charming, Francis Allston Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)
Brigg, John Cheetham, John Frederick Duffy, William J.
Bright, Allen Heywood Cogan, Denis J. Duncan, J. Hastings
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh Condon, Thomas Joseph Emmott, Alfred
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Crean, Eugene Esmonde, Sir Thomas
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Crooks, William Eve, Harry Trelawney
Burke, E. Haviland Cullinan, J. Farrell, James Patrick
Fenwick, Charles Lundon, W. Robson, William Snowdon
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Lyell, Charles Henry Roche, John
Ffrench, Peter Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Runciman, Walter
Flynn, James Christopher MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Schwann, Charles E.
Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. M'Crae, George Shackleton, David James
Gilhooly, James M, Fadden, Edward Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Gladstone, Rt.Hn Herbert John; M'Hugh, Patrick A. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Goddard, Daniel Ford M'Kean, John Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Griffith, Ellis J. M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Soares, Ernest J.
Hammond, John Markham, Arthur Basil Spencer, Rt.Hn.CR.(Northants
Harcourt, Lewis Mooney, Arthur Basil Sullivan, Donal
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil Mooney, John J. Taylor, Theodore C.(Ratcliffe)
Hayden, John Patrick Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Tennant, Harold John
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Murphy, John Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Nannetti, Joseph P. Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Higham, John Sharpe Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Tillett, Louis John
Hobhouse, C. E. H (Bristol, E. Norton, Capt. Cecil William Tomkinson, James
Holland, Sir William Henry O'Brien, Kendal (T'pper'ry Mid Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Horniman, Frederick John O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Johnson, John O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney)
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Weir, James Galloway
Joyce, Michael O'Dowd, John White, George (Norfolk)
Kearley, Hudson E. O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan, W O'Malley, William Whiteley, George (York, W. R.
Kilbride, Denis O'Mara, James Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Kitson, Sir James O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Labouchere, Henry Partington, Oswald Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset
Lambert, George Paulton, James Mellor Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. Pirie, Duncan V. Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Power, Patrick Joseph Woodhouse, Sir JT(Huddersf'd
Layland-Barratt, Francis Reckitt, Harold James Young, Samuel
Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington Reddy, M.
Leigh, Sir Joseph Redmond, John E. (Waterford TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Levy, Maurice Reid, Sir R.Threshie(Dumfries M'Kenna and Mr. Trevelyan.
Lewis, John Herbert Rickett, J. Compton
Lloyd-George, David Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Compton, Lord Alwyne Godson,Sir AugustusFrederick
Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Gordon,Hn.J.E.(Elgin & Nairn)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Dalkeith, Earl of Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-
Arkwright, John Stanhope Dalrymple, Sir Charles Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Arnold-Forster, Rt.Hn.Hugh O. Davenport, William Bromley Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Davies,Sir Horatio D. (Chatham Greene, Henry D (Shrewsbury)
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hon.Sir H Denny, Colonel Greville, Hon. Ronald
Bain, Colonel James Robert Dewar,SirT.R.(Tower Hamlets Harnilton,Marq.of(L'nd'nderry
Baird, John George Alexander Dickinson, Robert Edmond Hare, Thomas Leigh
Balcarres, Lord Dickson, Charles Scott Haslam, Sir Alfred S.
Balfour,Rt. Hon.A.J.(Manch'r Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Hay, Hon. Claude George
Balfour,RtHn GeraldW.(Leeds Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Heath.Sir James(Staffords. NW
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Dorington, Rt. Hon.Sir JohnE. Heaton, John Henniker
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Doughty, Sir George Helder, Augustus
Banner, John S. Harmood- Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Henderson,Sir A.(Stafford, W.)
Bill, Charles Doxford, Sir William Theodore Hickman, Sir Alfred
Bingham, Lord Dyke,Rt.Hon.Sir William Hart Hoare, Sir Samuel
Blundell, Colonel Henry Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Hogg, Lindsay
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Fardell Sir T. George Hope, J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Fergusson,Rt.Hn.SirJ(Manch'r Horner, Frederick William
Brymer, William Ernest Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Hoult, Joseph
Bull, William James Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Houston, Robert Paterson
Campbell, J.H.M.(Dublin Univ. Finlay,SirR.B(Inv'rn'ssB'ghs Howard, John(Kent,Faversham
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Fisher, William Hayes Hozier,Hn. James Henry Cecil
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Hunt, Rowland
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Flannery, Sir Fortescue Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton
Chamberlain,Rt Hn.J.A.(Worc. Flower, Sir Ernest Kenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hn.Col. W.
Chapman, Edward Forster, Henry William King, Sir Henry Seymour
Coates, Edward Feetham Foster,PhilipS.(Warwick, S.W. Knowles, Sir Lees
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Gardner, Ernest Laurie, Lieut.-General
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Stanley,Hon.Arthur (Ormskirk
Lawson,JohnGrant(Yorks.N R Nicholson, William Graham Stanley,Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.)
Lee,Arthur H(Hants.,Fareham Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury) Stewart,Sir Mark J.M'Taggart
Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Peel,Hn. Wm.Robert Wellesley Stone, Sir Benjamin
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Pemberton, John S. G. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Leveson-Gower,FrederickN.S. Percy, Earl Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Llewellyn, Evan Henry Pilkington, Colonel Richard Thornton, Percy M.
Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Platt-Higgins, Frederick Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Plummer, Sir Walter R. Tritton, Charles Ernest
Long,Col.Charles W.(Evesham Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Tuff, Charles
Long,Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol,S) Pretyman, Ernest George Tuke, Sir John Batty
Lowe, Francis William Purvis, Robert Tumour, Viscount
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Pym, C. Guy Valentia, Viscount
Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth Rankin, Sir James Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Rasch, Sir Frederick Carne Walrond,Rt.Hn.Sir William H.
Macdona, John Cumming Ratcliff, R. F. Warde, Colonel C. E.
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Reid, James (Greenock) Welby,Lt.-Col.A.C.E.(Taunton
Majendie, James A. H. Renwick, George Welby, Sir Charles GE. (Notts.)
Manners, Lord Cecil Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Marks, Harry Hananel Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Martin, Richard Biddulph Round, Rt. Hon. James Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Maxwell,W.JH(Dumfriesshire Royds, Clement Molyneux Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Milner, Rt.Hn. Sir Frederick G. Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Wilson-Todd,Sir W.H.(Yorks.
Milvain, Thomas Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Wodehouse,Rt.Hn. E.R.(Bath)
Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants Samuel, Sir Harry S(Limehouse Wylie, Alexander
Morpeth, Viscount Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Morrell, George Herbert Sharpe, William Edward T.
Morrison, James Archibald Skewes-Cox, Thomas TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Alexander Acland-Hood and
Mount, William Arthur Spear, John Ward Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

Original Question again proposed.


moved to report Progress. He did so, he said, in order to call attention to the spectacle—as he thought, the very disgraceful spectacle—which the House of Commons had witnessed during the last hour, and for which he was prepared to suggest and to prove that the Government was primarily responsible. [An HON. MEMBER: Where is the Prime Minister?] What had been the course of events that day? This was the first working day of the session and they were engaged on the Supplementary Estimates. The Financial Secretary to the War Office, in introducing them, delivered a very lengthy speech, which was contrary to precedent, for a very obvious reason. [Cheers and MINISTERIAL cries of "No."] It was perfectly palpable that he went out of his way to expand every little detail. [The PRIME MINISTER entered the House.] He was very glad to see that in a matter which pertained to the Estimates they had for the first time the presence of the First Lord of the Treasury. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh."] They were entitled when Supply was before the House to ask that the chief official of the Treasury should be present and more especially when things were going on which the Prime Minister knew in every detail, he being primarily the man to whom the dignity and honour of the House was charged. But he was very diplomatically absent. What was the course taken? The Financial Secretary to the War Office made a lengthy appeal to them for short speeches. An hon. friend of his moved an Amendment in a very brief speech, but the debate was prolonged for something like an hour by hon. Members opposite, who had really no criticisms to offer. [Cheers and cries of "Oh!] If they had why did they not support them in the Lobby? The debate was prolonged for something like an hour. The Chief Whip of the Government kept ostentatiously walking into the House and passing the word round. He was in command of the reserves and organised all this obstruction to the work of the House of Commons. At seven o'clock there was a division [Several HON. MEMBERS: A quarter past], and immediately afterwards a reduction was moved. That division was taken after a debate, which he did not think anybody would say was a prolonged one, upon an important matter involving the expenditure of £400,000. The Opposition were prepared to take a division before half-past seven, but the hon. Member for Peckham—he agreed that the hon. Baronet had earned the gratitude of hon. Members opposite; he was the colonel of the Old Guard—the hon. Member talked the Motion out. He did not think the hon. Baronet would deny that suggestion. Immediately after dinner the same process began again. The test of the sincerity of the utterances of hon. Members opposite was that the Secretary for War never got up to answer them because he knew they were not addressed in good faith. [Cheers and MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh."] The object was not to get an answer, but simply to waste time. The Prime Minister knew perfectly well that the House of Commons was absolutely tired of him and his Ministry. That night they all came down for the purpose of these skirmishes as a sort of detaining force until the rest of the army came up. It was true that they came up in rather larger numbers that night than usual. There were three vacanciesin the Ministry, and they were looking for deferred pay. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Divide."] He submitted that this was humiliating to the House of Commons, and that to carry on proceedings such as those they had witnessed during the past hour was inflicting a deep blow on its dignity and efficiency, and he ventured to move to report Progress in order to call attention to it.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Lloyd-George).


Sir, I understand that the hon. Gentleman has risen with a double motive. One is to safeguard the dignity of the House, and the other is to expedite business. I cannot say that in either of those most laudable objects he appears to me to have attained any great success. The hon. Gentleman, in the course of his speech, levelled a taunt at this side of the House which I certainly thought unworthy of him, and which I did not think added to the dignity of the House. He told the House in the earlier portion of his oration that the House was tired both of me and of the Government. That may be so. There are very simple methods of establishing the fact, and if we be a nuisance the nuisance is easily abated. The hon. Gentleman suggested that it is not with the view of supporting the Government on principle that my hon. friends have come down, but with some desire for office—that it was some desire to fill the vacant places in the Government that animated the Gentlemen whom I see around me. I do not think it is wise that taunts of this sort should be put forward across the floor of the House. There may be, I am told by the vast school of prophets I see opposite to me, an immediate chance of another Government being formed other than the one sitting on this bench. There will be more than three places to dispose of when that time comes, and I do not know whether we are to follow the example set by the hon. Gentleman and attribute any of the feverish activity we see on that side to a desire to form part of another Ministry. For my part, I do not think that these questions are very profitable matters for discussion, and I should certainly not have named them had the hon. Gentleman not thought fit to begin that particular game of repartee in which I am always very pleased to meet him, although I do not pretend to compete with equal strength.

The hon. Gentleman gave a picture of this afternoon's and evening's proceedings which my friends near me tell me does not correspond with the facts; and he reproaches me with not having been here myself to be an eye-witness and to bear first-hand testimony to the matters in debate. There are many younger and less experienced Members than he, but all may know, or ought to know, that it is quite impossible for the First Lord of the Treasury to sit here during all the debates in Supply. It is neither customary, nor is it possible. Nor could the business of the country be carried on if that were the practice. I make not the smallest apology for not having been here during all the afternoon; indeed, if I am to accept the hon. Gentleman's testimony to the value of the speeches delivered on this side of the House, and the testimony of my hon. friends to the value of the speeches delivered on that side, I do not think I can have lost much by ray non-attendance. What is the real gravamen of the charge of the hon. Gentleman? He wraps it up in a great many fine phrases about the dignity of the House. I would put it in two words. Hon. Gentlemen opposite wanted to have a snap division. Now, Sir, I am not quarrelling with the benevolent desire of the hon. Gentleman opposite to have a snap division. Doubtless he thinks he would thereby reap much benefit for himself and his Party. He is at liberty to pursue legitimate ends by means not contrary to the Rules and Orders of the House; but if he is at liberty to aim at getting a snap division, we are at least as much at liberty to do what we can to prevent it. And I will tell the House why. After all, the object of taking a division at all is to obtain the best reflection you can of the opinions of the representatives of the people—the Members of this House. How is that best attained? By so manœuvring as to obtain a snap division, or by taking a division when the House of Commons is comparatively full? The question has only to be put to beanswered. I hope the hon. Gentleman, whose Parliamentary talents I admire, will not suppose I am attacking him for endeavouring to make use of every device which the Rules of the House permit to embarrass those to whom he is opposed. My Parliamentary career is now rather a long one, and I certainly am not going to stand up and say I have never adopted the same course, and attempted to reap what small and petty advantages can be obtained by such an expedient. But to get up as the hon. Member has done, and in tones of thunderous indignation to indicate that the constitution of the House is being shattered and the dignity of its proceedings destroyed simply because we meet his manœuvre by another, and, I venture to say, a more legitimate one, is—I do not wish to be offensive—playing with words. It is to indulge in a speech of parade, the true meaning of which every one in this House understands. It is not intended to convince hon. Members, and if it is to be consumed at all it is by other audiences elsewhere. I am bound to say this Motion to report Progress is exceedingly ill-timed, and no good purpose is served by it. The hon. Gentleman has mourned over the waste of time that has already taken place upon what he rather unkindly calls the first working day of the session, and I hope he will now support the Government in the attempt to carry on business.


The right hon. Gentleman has excused himself for not being present during the last hour, and I make the admission at once that it is not to be expected that the Prime Minister will always be in his place; but I think the Prime Minister will admit on his part that we have never had a Leader of the House who has so habitually absented himself during our proceedings. [Cries of "Oh, oh!" "No," "Hear, hear!" and "Withdraw."] As an instance, I will go no further back than yesterday. We then had an Amendment to the Address brought forward, not directed against any mere departmental administration with which the Minister for the Department might deal, but which was an arraignment of the general financial policy of the Government, and throughout that debate, from first to last, the right hon. Gentleman was only here for a few minutes while the Chancellor of the Exchequer was speaking.


There were very good reasons for my absence yesterday, but, in addition to the claims of public business, it was understood that by arrangement the debate should close at half-past seven o'clock. I consulted with the Minister whose particular business it was—the Chancellor of the Exchequer—and it was not considered necessary that two Ministers should address the House; but had the debate extended through the evening I would have taken my part in it


I did not refer to the right hon. Gentleman not speaking in the debate; I referred to the fact of his being absent. He did not listen to one of the speeches made against the financial policy of his Government. The right hon. Gentleman says he has lost nothing by his absence this evening. Well, he has lost one thing, because I am quite sure if he had been present he would not have made the speech he has just now made. He attributes to us a manœuvre. I can only say for my part—and I ought to know something about the business of the House—that if there was a manœuvre I had no knowledge whatever of it. But I leave the right hon. Gentleman the benefit of his imputed manœuvre, and ask what is the business of the Government? It is to have their supporters here at the hours they have themselves fixed, and then they would be proof against any manœuvre. But what we saw was Member after Member from that side of the House get up and unblushingly occupy time without any attempt at concealment. There was no concealment about it, every one of them spoke with his tongue in his cheek, and I am afraid some of them must have bitten their tongues in the process. It was the business of the supporters of the Government to be here in sufficient numbers. The Amendment which was before us was talked out by supporters of the Government. There might have been a division at half-past seven, I am told—I was away myself, which in itself shows the absence of any manœuvre—there might have been a division if it had not been for the action of the hon. Member for Peckham. The same course was pursued at nine o'clock and continued until ten minutes to ten. The Government will be appealing to us by-and-by for some indulgence on account of pressure of time for proceeding with their business, and now, by flagrant neglect of their duty and by pushing to an indecent extreme the forms of the House, they have wasted nearly an hour, and they have done this in an evident and exuberantly willing manner, their supporters seeming to think it was a great joke to play these tricks with time. The present Motion is a proper one, and I hope it will be carried to a division.


said as he was present he wished to put on record his impression of the debate the right hon. Gentleman did not hear.


I cannot say I was here the whole time. I was not here until shortly after nine.


said he would remind the House what the debate had been. At twenty minutes past seven an Amendment was moved for the purpose of depriving the soldiers of £10,000 worth of the property they had earned. That money was as much the soldiers' property as anything hon. Gentlemen opposite had in their pockets was their property. If there was an illegitimate proceeding in the House that night it was moving an Amendment which, on the face of it, was illusory and absurd. As to the absence or presence of the Prime Minister, if the time ever came when the Leader of the Opposition might be able to set them an example, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would stick to the rule he had laid down and always be present during all the debates. He could not imagine a greater sustenance to the Party to which he (the speaker) belonged than to hear a bad case so ill-sustained as the right hon. Gentleman had that night sustained the case of the Opposition.


said that he also had been present throughout the debate, and it was his Amendment upon which the discussion had arisen. The right hon. Gentleman had, unintentionally, grossly misdescribed that Amendment, which was not one to deprive the soldier of £10,000. It was three times read from the Chair to be a reduction of £100. [Cries of, "Withdraw."] Oh, they would never withdraw. That Amendment was moved, not on the ground of desiring to withdraw from any soldier any deferred pay, but, as he explained in moving, and as the right hon. Gentleman was aware, because no such error should have been made in the accounts as would require an additional Estimate of £10,000. It was on that account he moved a reduction so small that it would not have affected the pay of a single soldier by a farthing. He could assure the Prime Minister that the picture drawn of the debate by the mover of the adjournment was strictly accurate; he would go further and say that the Prime Minister knew it was correct, otherwise why did the right hon. Gentleman defend in the, second half of his speech what he described as a manœuvre on the part of his followers? There had been no manœuvre to get a snap division. But he would tell the right hon. Gentleman what there had been. There had been an earnest desire on the part of hon. Members on his side to attend to the business of the House. There had been an earnest desire also on the part of the right hon. Gentleman's Whips to make his followers attend to the business of the House, but they had refused to do so. They were in a state of rebellion which the right hon. Gentleman considered a condition precedent to

an appeal to the country, and on the first working day of the session the House had had an example of how a worn-out. Government had lost all authority, not only in the country, but amongst their own followers. If the right hon. Gentleman retained any regard for the reputation and honour of the House he would not endeavour to protract a struggle which must inevitably end in defeat.

Question put.

The Committee divided:— Ayes, 167; Noes, 191. (Division List No. 21.)

Abraham, William(Cork. N. E.) Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. Nannetti, Joseph P.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Gilhooly, James Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Allen, Charles P. Gladstone, Rt. Hn. HerbertJohn Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Barlow, John Emmott Goddard, Daniel Ford Nussey, Thomas Willans
Barran, Rowland Hirst Griffith, Ellis J. O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton O'Brien, Patrick(Kilkenny)
Bell, Richard Hammond, John O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Boland, John Harcourt, Lewis O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil) O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Brigg, John Harwood, George O'Dowd, John
Bright, Allan Heywood Hayden, John Patrick O'Kelly, James (RoscommonN
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. O'Malley, William
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. O'Mara, James
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Burke, E. Haviland Higham, John Sharpe Partington, Oswald
Burns, John Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) Paulton, James Mellor
Buxton, Sydney Charles Holland, Sir William Henry Pirie, Duncan V.
Caldwell, James Horniman, Frederick John Power, Patrick Joseph
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk Rea, Russell
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Reckitt, Harold James
Causton, Richard Knight Johnson, John Reddy, M.
Cawley, Frederick Jones Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Redmond, John E.(Waterford)
Channing, Francis Allston Joyce, Michael Reid, Sir R.Threshie(Dumfries
Cheetham, John Frederick Kearley, Hudson E. Rickett, J. Compton
Cogan, Denis J. Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W) Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Kilbride, Denis Robson, William Snowdon
Crean, Eugene Kitson, Sir James Roche, John
Crooks, William Labouchere, Henry Rose, Charles Day
Cullinan, J. Lambert, George Runciman, Walter
Dalziel, James Henry Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan Lawson, Sir Wilfrid(Cornwall) Schwann, Charles E.
Delany, William Layland-Barratt, Francis Shackleton, David James
Devlin, C. R. (Galway) Leese, SirJosephF. (Accrington Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Leigh, Sir Joseph Sheehy, David
Donelan, Captain A. Levy, Maurice Shipman, Dr. John G.
Doogan, P. C. Lewis, John Herbert Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark) Lundon, W. Slack, John Bamford
Duffy. William J. Lyell, Charles Henry Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Duncan, J. Hastings Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Ellice, Capt. EC(S. Andrew'sBhs MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Soares, Ernest J.
Emmott, Alfred MacVeagh, Jeremiah Spencer, Rt. HnC. R.(Northants
Esmonde, Sir Thomas M'Crae, George Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Evans, SirFrancisH.(Maidstone M'Fadden, Edward Strachey, Sir Edward
Eve, Harry Trelawney M'Hugh, Patrick A. Sullivan, Donal
Farrell, James Patrick M'Kean, John Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe
Fenwick, Charles M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Tennant, Harold John
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Thomas, Sir A(Glamorgan, E.)
Ffrench, Peter Markham, Arthur Basil Thomas, DavidAlfred(Merthyr
Findlay, A. (Lanark, N. E.) Mooney, John J. Tomkinson, James
Flynn, James Christopher Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Foster, SirWalter(Derby Co.) Murphy, John Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) Whiteley, George (York, W.R.) Woodhouse, SirJ T(Huddersf'd
Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) Young, Samuel
Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Weir, James Galloway Wills, ArthurWalters(N. Dorset TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
White, George (Norfolk) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) Mr. Lloyd-George and Mr.
White, Luke (York, E. R.) Wilson, John (Falkirk) M'Kenna.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Forster, Henry William Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden Foster, Philip S. (Warwick,SW Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants.
ANson, Sir William Reynell Gardner, Ernest Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Arkwright, John Stanhope Godson, SirAugustusFrederick Morpeth, Viscount
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. HughO. Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn Morrell, George Herbert
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- Morrison, James Archibald
Aubrey-Fletcher, RtHn. SirH. Goschen. Hon. George Joachim Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Bain, Colonel James Robert Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Mount, William Arthur
Baird, John George Alexander Greene, HenryD.(Shrewsbury) Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Balcarres, Lord Grenfell, William Henry Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Greville, Hon. Ronald Nicholson, William Graham
Balfour, RtHnGeraldW. (Leeds Hambro, Charles Eric Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Hamilton, Marqof(L'nd'nderry Peel, Hn. Wm. RobertWellesley
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hare, Thomas Leigh Percy, Earl
Banner, John S. Harmood- Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Bill, Charles Hay, Hon. Claude George Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Bingham Lord Heath, SirJames(Staffords.NW Plummer, Sir Walter R.
Blunde., Colonel Henry Heaton, John Henniker Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bond, Edward Helder, Augustus Pretyman, Ernest George
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford. W.) Purvis, Robert
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hickman, Sir Alfred Pym, C. Guy
Brymer, William Ernest Hoare, Sir Samuel Rankin, Sir James
Bull, William James Hogg, Lindsay Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne
Burdett-Coutts, W. Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside Ratcliffe, R. F.
Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ. Horner, Frederick William Reid, James (Greenock)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hoult, Joseph Renwick, George
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Houston, Robert Paterson Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Howard, John(Kent, Faversh'm Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Chamberlain, RtHn. J. A. (Worc. Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) Round, Rt. Hon. James
Chapman, Edward Hozier, Hon. JamesHenryCecil Royds, Clement Molyneux
Coates, Edward Feetham Hunt, Rowland Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Jessel, Captain HerbertMerton Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Collings, RtHon. Jesse Kenyon-Slaney, RtHon.Col. W. Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Compton, Lord Alwyne Keswick, William Samuel, SirHarryS. (Limehouse
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Knowles, Sir Lees Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.
Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow) Laurie, Lieut-General Seton-Karr, SirHenry
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Sharpe, William Edward T.
Dalkeith, Earl of Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (MileEnd) Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Lawson, John G (Yorks. N. R.) Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Davenport, William Bromley Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Davies, SirHoratioD. (Chatham Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Spear, John Ward
Denny, Colonel Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Dewar, SirT. R.(TowerHamlets Leveson-Gower. FrederickN.S. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord(Lancs.)
Dickinson, RobertEdmond Llewellyn. Evan Henry Stewart, SirMarkJ. M'Taggart
Dickson, Charles Scott Lockwood, Lieut-Col.A. R. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Stroyan, John
Dorington, RtHon. Sir John E. Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Doughty Sir George Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol,S. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Lowe, Francis William Thornton, Percy M.
Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore Loyd, Archie Kirkman Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft Tritton, Charles Ernest
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmo'th Tuff, Charles
Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Turnour, Viscount
Fardell, Sir T. George Macdona, John Cumming Valentia, Viscount
Ferguson, RtHn. SirJ. (Manc'r M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Majendie, James A. H. Walrond, RtHn.SirWm. H.
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Marks, Harry Hananel Warde, Colonel C. E.
Finlay, SirR. B. (Invern'ssB'ghs Martin, Richard Biddulph Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E.(Taunton
Fisher, William Hayes Maxwell, W. JH. (Dumfriesshire Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts).
Fitzroy, Hon. EdwardAlgernon Milner, Rt Hn. Sir Frederick G. Wharton, Rt. Hn. J. Lloyd
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Milvain, Thomas Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)
Flower, Sir Ernest Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Wrightson, Sir Thomas TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Wilson, John (Glasgow) Wylie, Alexander Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Wodehouse,Rt.Hn. E.R.(Bath) Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

Original Question again proposed.


asked for an explanation of the increase of no less than 12 per cent, under Sub-head E. The items were all of a very ordinary character, in regard to which one would have thought approximately correct Estimates could have been made.

MR. WEIR (Ross and Cromarty)

complained of so large an increase in the Estimates. They were supposed to be going in for economy, but here was most extravagant expenditure. As representing a constituency where money was badly needed, he strongly protested against the extra expenditure of £15,150. It was a matter on which he could easily make a fifty minutes speech, but, in deference to the wishes of the Prime Minister, he would simply move the reduction of the Vote by that amount, and ask for an explanation.

Motion made, and Question proposed. "That Item, Vote 1, Sub-head E (Regimental Allowances and Expenses) be reduced by £15,150."—(Mr. Weir.)


said that in view of the assurances given by the Secretary of State last year that strenuous efforts would be made to reduce expenditure it was very disappointing to find increases in all these items. This Vote was in respect of matters in regard

to which one could not help feeling it was perfectly possible to have effected considerable reductions, and the Committee ought to have some fuller explanation of how the increase was made up, and as to why there was any increase at all. The people were over-taxed for the Army; the whole country was groaning under the burden of taxation; and in the face of the financial position of the country it was the duty of the Committee to insist on the fullest examination of every Estimate, whether original or supplemental, with a view to securing reductions wherever possible.


said this Vote was not quite so simple as the right hon. Baronet seemed to think. Many of the items had been in existence only a few years, and the sole basis upon which Estimates could be framed was past experience. The war had created new conditions and new allowances, with the result that the old system of estimating could no longer be relied upon; therefore the War Office had started a new system. All the old landmarks had been swept away, and it would probably be a few years before the Estimates could be framed with perfect accuracy. In this case there had undoubtedly been a serious under-estimate, but it was due to the circumstances he had mentioned.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 164; Noes, 192. (Division List No. 22.)

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Crooks, William
Ainsworth, John Stirling Burke, E. Haviland Cullinan, J.
Allen, Charles P. Burns, John Dalziel, James Henry
Ambrose, Robert Buxton, Sydney Charles Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan
Ashton, Thomas Gair Caldwell, James Delany, William
Barlow, John Emmott Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galw'y
Barran, Rowland Hirst Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Causton, Richard Knight Donelan, Captain A.
Bell, Richard Cawley, Frederick Doogan, P. C.
Boland, John Channging, Francis Allston Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Cheetham, John Frederick Duffy, William J.
Brigg, John Cogan, Denis J. Duncan, J. Hastings
Bright, Allan Heywood Condon, Thomas Joseph Ellice, Capt E C(SAndrw'sBghs
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Crean, Eugene Emmott, Alfred
Esmonde, Sir Thomas Leese, Sir Joseph F (Accrington Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Evans,Sir Francis H (Maidstone Leigh, Sir Joseph Robson, William Snowdon
Eve, Harry Trelawney Levy, Maurice Roche, John
Farrell, James Patrick Lewis, John Herbert Rose, Charles Day
Fenwick, Charles Lloyd-George, David Runciman, Walter
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Lough, Thomas Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)
Ffrench, Peter Lundon, W. Schwann, Charles E.
Findlay, Alexander(Lanark NE Lyell, Charles Henry Shackleton, David James
Flynn, James Christopher Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Sheehy, David
Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. MacVeagh, Jeremiah Shipman, Dr. John G.
Gilhooly, James M'Fadden, Edward Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Gladstone, RtHn.HerbertJohn M'Hugh, Patrick A. Slack, John Bamford
Goddard, Daniel Ford M'Kean, John Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick) M'Kenna, Reginald Soames Arthur Wellesley
Griffith, Ellis J. M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Soares, Ernest J.
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Spencer, RtHn. C.R(Northants
Hammond, John Mooney, John J. Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Harcourt, Lewis Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Strachey, Sir Edward
Hardie, J Keir (MerthyrTydvil) Murphy, John Sullivan, Donal
Harwood, George Nannetti, Joseph P. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Hayden, John Patrick Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Tenant Harold John
Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D Nussey, Thomas Willans Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E)
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. O'Brien, Kendal (TipperaryMid Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Henderson Arthur (Durham) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Tomkinson, James
Higham, John Sharpe O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Holland, Sir William Henry O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney
Horniman, Frederick John O'Dowd, John White, George (Norfolk)
Hutchinson, Dr. CharlesFredk. O'Kelly, James (Roscommon,N White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) O'Malley, William Whiteley, George(York. E. R.)
Johnson, John O'Mara, James Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Jones, William(Carnarvonshire O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Whittaker, Thos. Palmer
Joyce, Michael Partington, Oswald Wills, A. Walters (Dorset., N.)
Kearley, Hudson E. Paulton, James Mellor Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Kennedy Vincent P.(Cavan, W. Pirie, Duncan V. Woodhouse, Sir JT(Hud'ersfi'ld
Kilbride, Denis Power, Patrick Joseph Young, Samuel
Kitson, Sir James Rea, Russell
Labouchere, Henry Reckitt, Harold James TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr
Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. Reddy, M. Weir and Captain Norton.
Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Layland-Barratt, Francis Rickett, J. Compton
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir WilliamHart
Allhusen, AugustusHenryEden Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton
Anson, Sir William Reynell Cayzer, Sir Charles William Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)
Arkwright, John Stanhope Chamberlain, RtHn. J.A(Wore. Fardell, Sir T. George
Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn. Hugh O Chapman, Edward Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J.(Mancr.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Coates, Edward Feetham Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. HonSirH. Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.
Bain, Colonel James Robert Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Finlay, SirR.B(Inv'rn'ssBghs)
Baird, John George Alexander Compton, Lord Alwyne Fisher, William Hayes
Balcarres, Lord Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Fitzroy, Hn.Edward Algernon
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r. Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Balfour, RtHnGeraldW(Leeds Dalkeith, Earl of Flower, Sir Ernest
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Dalrymple, Sir Charles Forster, Henry William
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Davenport, W. Bromley Foster, PhilipS(Warwick, S. W.
Banner, John S. Harmood- Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham Galloway, William Johnson
Bill, Charles Denny, Colonel Gardner, Ernest
Bingham, Lord Dewar,Sir T.R (Tower Hamlets Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick
Blundell, Colonel Henry Dickinson, Robert Edmond Gordon, Hn. J. E(Elgin & Nairn
Bond, Edward Dickson, Charles Scott Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. SirJoseph C. Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Brymer, William Ernest Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)
Bull, William James Doughty, Sir George Grenfell, William Henry
Burdett-Coutts, W. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Greville, Hon. Ronald
Campbell, JH.M.(DublinUniv. Doxford, Sir William Theodore Hall, Edward Marshall
Hambro, Charles Eric M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Hamilton, Marq.of(L'donderry Majendie, James A. H. Samuel, Sir HarryS (Limehouse
Hare, Thomas Leigh Marks, Harry Hananel Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Martin, Richard Biddulph Seton-Karr, SirHenry
Hay, Hon. Claude George Maxwell, WJH(Dumfriesshire Sharpe, William Edward T.
Heath, SirJames(Staffords.NW Milner, Rt. HnSirFrederick G. Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Heaton, John Henniker Milvain, Thomas Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Helder, Augustus Molesworth, Sir Lewis Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W. Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Spear, John Ward
Hickman, Sir Alfred Montagu, Hn. J.Scott(Hants.) Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Hoare, Sir Samuel Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.)
Hogg, Lindsay Morpeth, Viscount Stewart, SirMark J.M'Taggart
Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Morrell, George Herbert Stone, Sir Benjamin
Hoult, Joseph Morrison, James Archibald Stroyan, John
Howard, John(KentFaversh'm Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) Mount, William Arthur Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Hozier, Hn. James HenryCecil Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Thornton, Percy M.
Hunt, Rowland Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Nicholson, William Graham Tuff, Charles
Kenyon-Slaney, Rt Hn.Col. W. Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury) Turnour, Viscount
Keswick, William Peel, Hn.Wm.RobertWellesley Valentia, Viscount
Knowles, Sir Lees Percy, Earl Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Laurie, Lieut.-General Pilkington, Colonel Richard Walrond, Rt. Hn. SirWilliamH.
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Warde, Colonel C. E.
Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End) Plummer, Sir Walter R. Welby, Lt, -Col.A.CE.(Taunton
Lawson,JohnGrant (Yorks.N.R Powell, SirFrancis Sharp Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.
Lee, Arthur H (Hants. Fareham Pretyman, Ernest George Wharton, Rt. Hon. JohnLloyd
Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Purvis, Robert Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Pym, C. Guy Willoughbyde Eresby, Lord
Leveson-Gower, FrederickN.S. Rankin, Sir James Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Llewellyn, Evan Henry Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R(Bath)
Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R, Ratcliff, R. F. Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart
Loder, Gerald Walter ErsKine Reid, James (Greenock) Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham Renwick, George Wylie, Alexander
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Lowe, Francis William Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Loyd, Archie, Kirkman Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Round, Rt. Hon. James Alexander Acland-Hood and
Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth Royds, Clement Molyneux Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Macdona, John Cumming Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Original Question again proposed.


pointed out that there was an excess upon this Vote of £25,000 and he wished to move its reduction by £5,000. If the Secretary for War favoured him with a reply he hoped he would not deliberately misinterpret the motives which had led him to make this Motion. This excess might be due to civilians, and he did not move this reduction for the purpose of asking the Committee to repudiate debts which were due to those civilians. Upon a similar Motion the right hon. Gentleman had accused the Opposition of trying to deprive the soldiers of £10,000, but he trusted the right hon. Gentleman would not misinterpret his motives in that way. He moved this Motion because he was convinced that there had been great carelessness in the preparation of these Estimates and in the way in which they had been placed before the House. This was by no means the first time that he had risen to protest against the manner in which these Votes had been presented to the House. He was reluctant to move this Motion, because he noticed that some of the money was for the doctors of the Army, but he wished more particularly to know if it were a fact that grooms and officers' servants were paid out of this money. Was it true that the country had to pay for these services. He had no wish to unduly occupy the time of the House, but he wished to have a distinct answer to those questions. Unless he obtained a satisfactory reply he should be obliged to press his Motion to a division. He begged to move.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item, Vote 1, Sub-head I (Wages of Civilians attached to Units, etc.) be reduced by £5,000.—(Mr. O'Mara.)


said it ought to have been possible to employ soldiers in place of many of the civilians who were engaged in quasi-regimental duties. Instead of spending this money upon civilians he thought it would have been much better expended upon guns and rifles. The Committee ought not to pass this Vote without some satisfactory explanation from the Secretary of State for War as to why this large increase in the expenditure had taken place in time of peace.


explained that the whole cost was accounted for by the fact that in South Africa during the greater part of the year they had had to maintain a very large number, an excessive number, of horses and transport animals. He had done his best to keep down expenditure, but he did not feel justified in insisting upon economy when it was opposed to the requirements of the service. It was felt that in the event of war those transport animals would be required. Of course those animals had to be taken care of by civilian servants, and this expenditure had been incurred mostly for civilian servants, such as grasscutters, labourers, and persons attending to the horses. Soldiers were not employed because the animals were in the Remount Department, in which there was not a sufficient number of soldiers to take charge of them.


asked for a more detailed explanation.


It is the whole of the explanation.


Then it is a very poor explanation. They certainly ought to have a more detailed explanation than the mere statement that this expenditure was necessary because the Secretary for War was afraid of a war in the Far East

MR. MOONEY (Dublin County, S.)

said they had just been told that the state of affairs in the Far East necessitated this large increase in the forces in South Africa. The increase was out of all proportion to the original Estimate. The Financial Secretary had told them that it was due to the maintenance of transport animals and fodder, but there would have to be a very large number of horses indeed to account for the great increase. He did not think the explanation given was at all satisfactory.

MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.)

pressed for some further explanation. The explanation given was a most surprising one, for it was to the effect that the military authorities thought that we were going to drift into war, which was disquieting.


I did not say that. What I stated was that, in the view of the military authorities, it would not have been wise or prudent if they had not retained those transport animals.


said that showed that the military authorities thought there was a danger of drifting into war. What was the war they were contemplating? If there was any real danger of war the spending of an extra £25,000 upon men cutting grass for ponies would be no use. This was the most grotesque explanation he had ever heard. He wished to know what number of animals were being kept in readiness for this imaginary war. What Power was it that they were likely to go to war with? The hon. Member ought to give them some further information upon this point, and more particularly he ought to tell them whether the danger was now past.


said he was not entitled to speak on the question whether there was at present any danger of war. But these horses had now been sold, and the men discharged, and these payments no longer continued. Therefore, the hon. Member need not be disquieted in his mind.


thought the raising of this question had been fully justified by the further remarks of the Financial Secretary to the War Office. Judging from the statement he had made he had come to the conclusion that in order to get at the real inner mind of the Government they had to go to the junior members of the Administration. The hon. Member had put forward a reason which, with all due respect to him, ho confessed he could not quite understand, and he could not see how it could be the real reason for this extra expenditure. He said that it was due to the fears of the military authorities that this increase in the Estimate had taken place. He thought this was a case in which they ought to have a word from the Secretary for War in justification of such an important departure. The hon. Gentleman himself within the last few minutes explained and defended this Vote on the ground of what was in the mind of the military authorities as to what might transpire in the Far East. The Committee, therefore, were amply justified in asking further information in regard to that statement. What were the fears present to the mind of the military authorities, and who were the military authorities who came to that decision? Was it the late Secretary for War, or was it the present Secretary? Was it the combined intelligence of the whole of the War Office, known as the Army Council? The hon. Gentleman could not get away from the statement he had made, and he ought to tell the Committee what was feared and what rendered this increased expenditure necessary.


asked whether it would not be possible to put this item in a more intelligible form. He was wholly incapable of construing it. It turned out that the expense was for grass-cutters. He wanted to know for what time they were employed and how it was possible to spend that amount on them.


asked for some details in regard to the work done by civilians attached to units. The revised Estimate amounted to £75,000, being an addition of 50 per cent, on the original Estimate. If the increase had not been spent on wages alone what was the other expenditure?


said they were led to understand that the increase was for wages of Kaffir grass-cutters and of certain whites who had charge of the transport animals. The Committee were entitled to know the amount of transport so retained, and also why it was retained. What was the presumption as to the amount of this transport that could be utilised in the Far East? Was the staff in charge of the animals also to be taken to the Far East, although better and cheaper labour for that work could be obtained in India? This charge of £75,000 did not represent the whole of the expenditure, because there was also a charge for forage and so forth for these animals. perhaps the hon. Gentleman would explain what the dangers in the Far East were.


said that the Supplementary Estimate represented what was paid for services of civilians attached to units. It might be that there was a good deal to be said on both sides of the question as to whether civilians should be employed in certain work in connection with the Army, but they were employed with the view of the increased efficiency of the soldiers. If they wished to get the best service out of the soldier he should not be asked to perform all kinds of civil duties. He could not at the moment enter into the considerations in regard to the Far East which led the Government to think that it would not be prudent to sell the animals they had in their possession. The necessity had now entirely passed away. The maintenance of horses in South Africa was enormously expensive, and everybody knew it was a fact that it took only a few months for a horse to perform the extraordinary feat of eating its own head off.


That is very interesting, but it does not answer the question whether it was for wages or not. Was it all for wages?




said if the Committee were furnished with more information in the

Estimates it would not be necessary to ask these questions at the cost of a vast amount of valuable time. After the explanation that had been given as to the payment of £25,000 for grass-cutters he was in as great a maze as ever. What were the difficulties in the Far East to which the hon. Gentleman had referred? He was prepared to support the Government when money was prudently and wisely expended, but he was afraid that in this instance there had been a want of wisdom. He, for one, objected to the Estimates bring thrown at their heads in this unsatisfactory fashion.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 172; Noes, 198. (Division List No. 23.)

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Devlin,CharlesRamsay(Galway Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Holland, Sir William Henry
Ainsworth, John Stirling Donelan, Captain A. Horniman, Frederick John
Allen, Charles P. Doogan, P. C. Hutchinson, Dr.Charles Fredk.
Ambrose, Robert Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)
Ashton, Thomas Gair Duffy, William J. Johnson, John
Asquith,Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry Duncan, J. Hastings Jones, William (Carnarvonshire
Barlow, John Emmott Edwards, Frank Joyce, Michael
Barran, Rowland Hirst Ellice,Capt EC(S.Andrw'sBghs Kearley, Hudson, E.
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Emmott, Alfred Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan,W.
Bell, Richard Esmonde, Sir Thomas Kilbride, Denis
Benn, John Williams Evans,Sir Francis H(Maidstone Kitson, Sir James
Boland, John Eve, Harry Trclawney Labouchere, Henry
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Farrell, James Patrick Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)
Brigg, John Fenwick, Charles Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)
Bright, Allan Heywood Forguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Layland-Barratt, Francis
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Ffrench, Peter Leese, Sir Joseph F(Accrington
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Findlay,Alexander(Lanark,NE Leigh, Sir Joseph
Burke, E. Haviland Flynn, James Christopher Levy, Maurice
Burns, John Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Lewis, John Herbert
Buxton, Sydney Charles Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. Lough, Thomas
Caldwell, James Gilhooly, James Lundon, W.
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn Lyell, Charles Henry
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H Goddard, Daniel Ford Marnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Causton, Richard Knight Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Cawley, Frederick Griffith, Ellis J. MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Channing, Francis Allston Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton M'Crae, George
Cheetham, John Frederick Hammond, John M'Fadden, Edward
Churchill, Winston Spencer Harcourt, Lewis M'Hugh, Patrick A.
Cogan, Denis J. Hardie, J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil) M'Kean, John
Condon, Thomas Joseph Harwood, George M'Kenna, Reginald
Crean, Eugene Hayden, John Patriek M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Crooks, William Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. M'Laren, Sir Carles Benjamin
Cullinan, J. Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Murphy, John
Delany, William Higham, John Sharpe Nannetti, Joseph P.
Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Richards,Thomas(W.Monm'th) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan,E.)
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Rickett, J. Compton Thomas,David Alfred(Merthyr)
Nussey, Thomas Willans Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Tomkinson, James
O'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary Mid Roche, John Trevelyan, Charles Philips
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Rose, Charles Day Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Runciman, Walter Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
O'Donell, John (Mayo, S.) Schwann, Charles E. Weir, James Galloway
O'Dowd, John Shackleton, David James White, George (Norfolk)
O'Kelly, James (Roscommon,N Sheehan, Daniel Daniel Whife, Luke (York, E. R.)
O'Malley, William Sheehy, David Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)
O'Mara, James Shipman, Dr. John G. Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Partington, Oswald Slack, John Bamford Wills, ArthurWalters (N.Dorset
Paulton, James Mellor Smith, Samuel (Flint) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Soames, Arthur Wellesley Wilson, John (Falkirk
Pirie, Duncan V. Soares, Ernest J. Woodhouse,SirJ.T(Hudd'rsfi'd
Power, Patrick Joseph Spencer,RtHn.C.R. (Northants Young, Samuel
Rea, Russell Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Reckitt, Harold James Strachey, Sir Edward TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Reddy, M. Sullivan, Donal Mr. Dalziel and Mr.
Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Mooney.
Reid, Sir R. Threshie(Dumfries Tennant, Harold John
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Dimsdale,Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph G. Howard,John(Kent Faversham
Allhusen,Augustus HenryEden Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E Hozier,Hon. James Henry Cecil
Arkwright, John Stanhope Doughty, Sir George Hunt, Rowland
Arnold-Forstor,Rt.Hn.Hugh O Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Doxford, Sir William Theodore Kenyon-Slaney,Rt Hon Col. W.
Aubrey-Fletcher.Rt.Hn.Sir H. Dyke,Rt.Hn. Sir William Hart Keswick, William
Bain, Colonel James Robert Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Knowles, Sir Lees
Baird, John George Alexander Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) Laurie, Lieut-General
Balcarres, Lord Fardell, Sir T. George Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Balfour,Rt.Hn. A.J. (Manch'r Fergusson,Rt.Hn.Sir J.(Manc'r Lawson,Hn.H.L.W.(Mile End)
Balfour,Rt HnGerald W.(Leeds Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Lawson,JohnGrant (Yorks.N.R.
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christen. Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Lee,Arthur H(Hants.,Fareham
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Finlay, Sir R.B (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs) Lees, Sir Elliott (Birker head)
Banner, John S. Harmood- Fisher, William Hayes Legge, Col. Hon Heneage
Bartley, Sir George C. T. Fison, Frederick William Leveson-Gower, Frederick N S.
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Bill, Charles Flannery, Sir Fortescue Lockwood Lieut.-Col. A. R.
Bingham, Lord Flower, Sir Ernest Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Blundell, Colonel Henry Forster, Henry William Long,Col.(Charles W.(Evesham
Bond, Edward Foster,Philip S(Warwiek,S.W. Long.Rt.Hn,Walter (Bristol.S.)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Galloway, William Johnson Lowe, Francis William
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Gardner, Ernest Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Brymer, William Ernest Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)
Bull, William James Gordon, Hn.J.E. (Elgin & Nairn Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth
Burdett-Coutts, W. Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- Lyttelton, Rt, Hon. Alfred
Campbell,J.H.M.(Dublin Univ. Gosehon, Hon. GeorgeJoaehim Macdona, John Gumming
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. W. Gray, Ernest (West Ham) M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury) Majendie, James A. H.
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire Grenfell, William Henry Manners, Lord Cecil
Camberlain,RtHn.J.A.(Worc. Greville, Hon. Ronald Marks, Harry Hananel
Chapman, Edward Hall, Edward Marshall Martin, Richard Biddulph
Coates, Edward Feetham Hambro, Charles Eric Maxwell, W.J.H(Dumfriesshire
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hamilton,Marq. of (L'donderry Milner.Rt.Hn.Sir Frederick G.
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hare, Thomas Leigh Milvain, Thomas
Compton, Lord Alwyne Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Hay, Hon. Claude George Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Heath,SirJames(Staffords.NW Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)
Cust, Henry John C. Heaton, John Henniker Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Dalkeith, Earl of Helder, Augustus Morpeth, viscount
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Henderson,Sir A.(Stafford, W. Morrell, George Herbert
Davenport, W. Bromley Hickman, Sir Alfred Morrison, James Archibald
Davies,Sir Horatio D.(Chatham Hoare, Sir Samuel Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Denny, Colonel Hogg, Lindsay Mount, William Arthur
Dickinson, Robert Edmond Hope,J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray G.
Dickson, Charles Scott Hoult, Joseph Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Nicholson, William Graham Royds, Clement Molyneux Valentia, Viscount
Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury) Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Peel,Hn.Wm.Robert Wellesley Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Walrond.Rt Hn. Sir William H.
Percy, Earl Sackville, Col. S. G Stopford Warde, Colonel C. E.
Pilkington, Colonel Richard Samuel,Sir Harry S.(Limehouse Welby,Lt.-Gol.A.C.E.(Taunton
Platt-Higgins, Frederick Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Welby,Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.
Plummer, Sir Walter R. Seton-Karr, Sir Henry Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Sharpe, William Edward T Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Pretyman, Ernest George Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Purvis, Robert Skewes-Gox, Thomas Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Pym, C. Guy Smith, Hon W F. D. (Strand) Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Rankin, Sir James Spear, John Ward Wodchouse,Rt.Hn.E.R.(Bath)
Rasch, Sir Frederic Garne Stanley.Rt, Hn. Lord (Lanes.) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Ratcliff, R. F. Stewart,Sir Mark J. M'Taggart Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Reid, James (Greenock) Stone, Sir Benjamin Wylie, Alexander
Renwick, George Stroyan, John Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Ridley, S. Forde Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Talbot, Lord E. (Chiehester) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Thornton, Percy M. Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Tuff, Charles
Round, Rt. Hon. James Turnour, Viscount

Original Question again proposed.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

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