§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ [Mr. HARDY (Kent. Ashford) in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1:—
§ MR. CALDWELL (Lanarkshire, Mid.) moved to omit the words, "as amended by any subsequent enactment," so as to limit the Bill to the application of the Military Lands Act, 1892, which gave power for the purchase of land, and of land only. There was a certain amount of difficulty in discussing this Bill in respect that it was a one clause measure which proposed to apply three different Acts to the Naval Volunteers. Therefore, it was practically three Bills rolled into one. The Government could have brought in a Bill dealing with the Naval Volunteers alone, but instead of that they had adopted the method of reference. He supposed the meaning of that was that they desired to shut out the opportunity of making any Amendment, and that they might be enabled to carry an enormously big Bill without difficulty. He did not think that was a reasonable method. The Act of 1892, and subsequent Acts in regard to military lands, had no necessary connection with the Naval Volunteers. The powers given by the 1892 Act were limited solely to the purchase of land in the United Kingdom. The Act which was passed in 1897 enabled Volunteer corps to borrow money for the purpose of erecting buildings and permanent works; and in 1900 an Act was passed which enabled the council of a county or 1485 borough to lease land to any Volunteer corps for military purposes for a period not exceeding ninety-nine years, powers were conferred on Volunteer corps to borrow from the Public Works Loan Commissioners to the extent of a lease so made, and the Act further provided that if a Volunteer corps was disbanded the lease was to vest in the Secretary of State in the same way as the land would vest in him. In 1903 an Act was passed which introduced a new method, namely, that instead of a Volunteer corps purchasing land as provided for under the 1892 Act, or leasing land as provided for under the 1900 Act, the council of a county or borough were themselves empowered to lease laud for a period of not less than twenty-one years and then to borrow in respect of that lease. There was, therefore, a distinct issue raised by his Amendment. It would eliminate from the present Bill the Acts to which he had referred, and go back to the position created by the 1892 Act, which only gave powers for the purchase of land. He ventured to say that if the Amendment were carried the Government would have all the powers that were required in regard to the acquisition of land for the Naval Volunteers. He maintained that the money of local authorities should not be employed in providing permanent naval works. That was essentially an Imperial purpose.
§ The reason stated for getting this Bill passed was that there was some land which the Clyde Trustees were quite willing to sell or lease for naval purposes. When he was asked in regard to this matter he said distinctly that he had no objection to that, because it would enable the local authorities to sell the land or to lease it, which, but for this Bill, they could not do. His Amendment did not touch at all anything connected with that power. When land had been obtained under the Military Lands Act of 1892 they could not erect on that land anything for the use of Naval Volunteers, such as sheds for guns, or even a drill hall. This Bill was an evolution from the Military Lands Acts of 1892–1900, and allowed the local authorities to erect a drill hall. Now, he always considered that the proper place to drill Naval Volunteers was on board ship. 1486 If the Naval Volunteers were to be properly exercised, that was an expense which should be borne by the State as a whole and not by the local authorities. Supposing a corps of Naval Volunteers was disbanded, the local authorities would be burdened with the sheds for ammunition, guns, or other material for which there would be no use. If the land was provided what else did they want for Naval Volunteers? It might be used for a rifle range, but why should not the State, as a State, provide a rifle range out of the funds of the Stats?
§ MR. CALDWELLsaid that was exactly what he was endeavouring to do. He had been exceedingly careful to point out that under the Military Lands Act power was given to purchase land, and the subsequent Acts gave power to erect buildings at the expense of the local authorities. He did not object to the purchase of land but to the erection of buildings for Naval Volunteers at the expense of the local authorities. If his Amendment were carried the Admiralty would still have practically everything they required—everything, at any rate, they ought to have. He begged to move.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 5, to leave out the words 'as amended by any subsequent enactment.'":—(Mr. Caldwell.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
§ THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARTHUR LEE, Hampshire, Fareham)said he was afraid the Government were unable to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member, who wished, in short, to limit the power of the Admiralty under this Bill to the purchase of land only. The hon. Member objected to money being raised to erect drill halls, which were most 1487 essential to the efficient training of Naval Volunteers. The hon. Member cited an individual case where only land was required: but it was obviously undesirable to legislate for individual cases. The measure should be of universal application. The hon. Member had said that the Naval Volunteers did not want buildings on the land acquired; but that was a new theory. A drill hall for the Naval Volunteers was required in exactly the same way as for Military Volunteers.
§ He could not see any distinction between the two. The hon. Gentleman said that when land was appropriated for Naval Volunteer purposes it lost value; but even if that were the case, the land would not be of less value than land remote from the sea front.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 153; Noes, 82. (Division List No, 207.)
1489| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Finlay, Sir R B.(Inv'rn'ss B'ghs | Parker, Sir Gilbert |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Fisher, William Hayes | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Allhusen, Augustus Henry E. | Fison, Frederick William | Peel, Hn, Wm. R. Wellesley |
| Allsopp, Hn. George | Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Anson, Sir Wm. Reynell | Forster, Henry William | Percy, Earl |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O | Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S.W. | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Garfit, William | Plummer, Sir Walter R. |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Gordon, Maj. Evans (T'r H 'm' ts | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Balcarres, Lord | Graham, Henry Robert | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Purvis, Robert |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds | Greene. Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds | Pym, C. Guy |
| Balfour, Kenneth K. (Christch. | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine |
| Banner, John S. Harmood. | Hamilton, Marq. of (L 'nd' nderry | Ritchie, Rt Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Helder, Augustus | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Bill, Charles | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hogg, Lindsay | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Bousfield, Wm, Robert | Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside | Samuel. Herb. L.(Cleveland) |
| Bowles, Lt-Col. H. F. (Middlesex | Hornby, Sir William Henry | Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
| Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh. | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham | Seton-Karr Sir Henry |
| Brymer, William Ernest | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow) | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Shaw-Stewart. Sir H. (Renfrew) |
| Carson. Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Kimber, Sir Henry | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Knowles. Sir Lees | Sloan, Themes Henry |
| Cayzer, Sir Chas. William | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Spear, John Ward |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J. A. (Worc. | Law. Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Stanley. Edward Jas. (Somerset |
| Chapman, Edward | Lawrence, Sir J. (Monm' th) | Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Lee, Arthur H, (Hants, Fareham | Stroyan, John |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Strutt, Hn. Charles Hedley |
| Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Talbot, Lord E (Chichester) |
| Coddington, Sir William | Long. Col. Chas. W. (Evesham | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Turnour, Viscount |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Lucas, Reginald J (Portsm'th) | Walro d. Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H. |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Malcolm, Inn | Welby, Lt, Col A. C E (Taunton). |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Manners, Lord Cecil | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan | Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart |
| Dimsdale, Rt. Hn Sir Joseph C. | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. | Morrison, James Archibald | |
| Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers. | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir |
| Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Mount, William Arthur | Alexander Acland-Hood and |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Viscount Valentia. |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | |
| Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E, | Higham, John Sharp | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Jacoby, James Alfred | Russell, T. W. |
| Asher, Alexander | Labouchere, Henry | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Black, Alexander William | Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) | Slack, John Bamford |
| Bright, Allan Heywood | Leng, Sir John | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Lewis, John Herbert | Stanhope, Hn. Philip James |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Lundon, W. | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Burns, John | Lyell, Charles Henry | Sullivan, Donal |
| Burt, Thomas | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. |
| Buxton. N. K. (York, N R, Whitby | M'Crae, George | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S. | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Causton, Richard Knight | M'Laren, Sir Chas. Benjamin | Tomkinson, James |
| Cawley, Frederick | Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe | Toulmin, George |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Murphy, John | Wallace, Robert |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N. | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan |
| Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Cromer, William Randal | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Delany, William | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Donelan, Captain A. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset |
| Doogan, P. C. | O'Malley, William | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Parrott, William | Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Huddersf'd |
| Ellice, Capt E C (S Andrw's B'ghs | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | |
| Evanes Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Perks, Robert William | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | Philipps, John Wynford | Caldwell and Mr. Dobbie. |
| Fenwick, Charles | Pine, Duncan V. | |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Price, Robert John |
§ MR. CALDWELLsaid he wished to move, the omission of the words "corps or other bodies of." From a drafting point of view it would be better if they were omitted. The Amendment would make the Bill more comprehensive, and he did not move it in any hostile spirit.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 7, to leave out the words 'corps or other bodies of.' "—(Mr. Caldwell.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
§ MR. ARTHUR LEEsaid it would be more convenient to retain the words. The other bodies in the clause referred to detachments of divisions.
§ MR. CALDWELLsaid he did not ask the hon. Gentleman to accept the Amendment now; but it could be made in another place. From his experience of drafting, he knew that the more com- 1490 prehensive the words were the better, and the greater the power that was given. It was not a Party matter at all. He would act similarly were the Liberal Party in power.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis)said that the Bill was restricted, and, therefore, very objectionable. Moreover, the slip-shod method of drafting was something marvellous. "Corps" was simply a French word for "body." Why the English word "body" could not be used he could not imagine. The words were pleonastic, and should be omitted. What were "other bodies"? No definition of the words had been given. He hoped the hon. Gentleman would not withdraw the Amendment. The powers proposed to be given under the Bill were improper and dangerous powers, which should be definitely restricted to the particular bodies concerned. The Bill proposed that Naval Volunteers should be empowered to buy land; if they were empowered to buy the sea he could understand it.
§ Question put.
1492§ The Committee divided Ayes, 148; Noes 85. (Division List No.208.)
1493| AYES | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Egerton, Hn. A. de Tatton | Morrison, James Arcibald |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer |
| Allhusen, Augustus Henry E. | Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Finlay, Sir R B (Inv'rn'ss B'ghs | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Fisher, William Hayes | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Arnold-Forester, Rt. Hn. H. O, | Fison, Frederick William | Parker, Sir Gilbert |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose | Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Forster, Henry William | Peel, Hn Wm. Robt. Wellesley |
| Balcarres, Lord | Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.) | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Balfour Rt Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) | Garfit, William | Percy, Earl |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Gordon, Maj Evans (T'r H'mlets | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Graham, Henry Robert | Plummer, Sir Walter R. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Banner, John S. Harmood. | Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Purvis, Robert |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Pym, C. Guy |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nder'y | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |
| Bill, Charles | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Harris, F Leverton (Tynem'th | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Helder, Augustus | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Bowles, Lt-Col. H F (Middlesex | Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W. | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney |
| Brown, Sir Alex. H.(Shrcpsh.) | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Brymer, William Ernest | Hogg, Lindsay | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Bull, William James | Hope, J F (Sheffield Brightside) | Seton-Karr, Sir Henry |
| Butcher, John George | Hornby, Sir William Henry | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J A (Glasgow | Hozier, Hn James Henry Cecil | Shaw-Stewart. Sir H. (Renfrew |
| Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Cavendish, V. C, W. (Derbysh. | Knowles, Sir Lees | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Laurie, Lieut. General | Spear, John Ward |
| Chamberlain, Rt Hn J A (Wore. | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Stanley, Kdw. Jas. (Somerset) |
| Chapman, Edward | Lawrence, Sir J (Monmouthsh. | Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Lee, A. H. (Hants, Farcham) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Legge, Col. Hn. Heneage | Talbot, Rt Hn J. G (Oxfd Uni. |
| Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw, M. |
| Coddington, Sir William | Long, Col. Chas, W (Evesham) | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S | Tuke, Sr John Batty |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Turnour, Viscount |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Lowe, Francis William | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H. |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th) | Welby, Lt.-Col. A C E (Taunton |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. Alfred | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Crippss, Charles Alfred | Mac Iver, David (Liverpool) | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Dalkeith, Karl of | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Malcolm, Ian | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Manners, Lord Cecil | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Martin, Richard Biddulph | |
| Dimsdale, Rt Hn Sir Joseph C. | Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H.E (Wigt'n | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred D. | Melville, Berosford Valentine | Alexander Aclaed-Hood and |
| Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Viscount Valentia. |
| Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | |
| NOES | ||
| Abraham, Win. (Cork, N.E.) | Buxton, NE (York N R., Whitby | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Ambrose, Robert | Caldwell, James | Doogan, P. C. |
| Asher, Alexander | Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark) |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Channing, Francis Allston | Duncan, J. (Hastings) |
| Black, Alexander William | Cheetham, John Frederick | Ellice, Capt F. C (S Andrw's Bghs) |
| Bright, Allan Heywood | Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Cremer, William Randal | Ere, Harry Trelawney |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan | Fenwick, Charles |
| Burns, John | Delany, William | Ferguson, R. C. Mnnro (Leith |
| Burt, Thomas | Dobbie, Joseph | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton |
| Harmsworth, R. Leicester | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid | Sullivan, Donal |
| Higham, John Sharp | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. |
| Jacoby, James Alfred | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W | Thomas, D. A. (Merthyr) |
| Labouehere, Henry | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Langley, Batty | O'Malley, William | Tomkinson, James |
| Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Parrott, William | Toulmin, George |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | Wallace, Robert |
| Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) | Perks, Robert William | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan |
| Leng, Sir John | Philipps, John Wynford | Weit, James Galloway |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Pirie Duncan V. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Lundon, W. | Price, Robert John | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Lyell, charles Henry | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | Wills, A. Walters (N. Dorset) |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Russell, T. W. | Wilson, Henry J (York, W. R.) |
| M'Crae, George | Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland) | Wilson, J W (Worcester sh. N.) |
| M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Seely Maj. J E.B (Isle of Wight | Woodhouse, Sir J, T (Huddersf'd |
| M'Laren, Sir Chas. Benjamin | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | |
| Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe | Shipman, Dr. John G. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Slack, John Bamford | Gibson Bowles and Mr. |
| Murphy, John | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Joseph Walton. |
| Nannetti, Joseph P. | Spencer, Rt Hn C R (Northanta) |
§ Question proposed, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill".
MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid that Clause 1 was the Bill. In his view it was a Bill Which ought not to pass; and, therefore, he felt it his bounden duty to oppose it on two grounds. Firstly, the Naval Volunteers ought not to exist at all; and secondly, if they did exist, they should not be given any borrowing powers for the purposes specified in the Bill. Naval Volunteers had been tried before, and had been abandoned; while the Admiralty neglected recruiting for the Royal Naval Reserve, which was a real and most admirable body. Let it be assumed that the scheme was as acceptable as he believed it to be ridiculous. Even then why should the Naval Volunteers be recommended to get into debt? Why should they acquire land? What they wanted was not land and buildings, but water and ships. He could quite understand Military Volunteers requiring land—a sort of small Salisbury Plain—on which to conduct their drill; but what did Naval Volunteers want land for? Another objection he had to the measure was that it was one of those financial Bills which he thought the House of Commons had made up its mind to reject. No one could tell what the Bill meant. It consisted of only one clause, and that was completely unintelligible. It substituted the Admiralty for the Secretary of State, and the Navy for the Army. He had constantly repeated his request, when a referential Bill was introduced, 1494 that it should be accompanied by the main Bill, as was done by the late Sir William Harcourt. That excellent precedent had been lost sight of. He believed that the Bill meant an absolutely wanton and unnecessary expenditure; and that it was one of those adventures which ambitious Undersecretaries were allowed to embark on on the chance of their making some reputation if they succeeded and doing no harm if they failed. The House, he submitted, ought not to do anything to encourage these Naval Volunteers, who had only been instituted in order to supersede the real Naval Reserve of the country. The Bill was further objectionable by reason of its elusive and referential character, and he would do his best to prevent it being passed into law.
§ MR. CALDWELLsaid that that Bill was one which it was impossible for the Committee generally to understand. He would point out one important matter which was involved. The measure proposed to empower county councils and borough councils to purchase land out of the funds of the local ratepayers, and to erect permanent buildings for naval and military purposes. Surely the entire country, and not a locality, ought to provide for its Imperial obligations.
And, it being half-past Five of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Committee report Progress, to sit again Monday next.