HC Deb 05 June 1905 vol 147 cc793-9

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. JEFFREYS (Hampshire, N.) in the Chair.]

Motion made, and Question proposed "That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending the 31st day of March, 1906, the sum of £16,636,200 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)

said they were entitled to some explanations as to why it was considered necessary to take Committee of Ways and Means at the present time. The Government was so disorganised that they thought they could pass matters of this kind without taking any trouble to explain the reasons for it. This Resolution would lay the foundation for a second Consolidated Fund Bill, and, if that were so, would it be the last Consolidated Fund Bill in the course of the present session, or was it preliminary to a third Consolidated Fund Bill? He was glad to see the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place, although he was sure they had a most excellent substitute in the Secretary to the Treasury, notwithstanding the statement made by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the other day. He repeated why was it necessary to bring forward this Motion at the present time and would it be necessary to have a No. 3 Consolidated Fund Bill later in the session? He thought it was to be deprecated that such a Resolution should be submitted to the Committee without a single word of explanation.


said he should have been glad to leave this matter in the hands of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury who would have given the Committee all the explanation they desired, and who was quite as competent as he was to place the Committee in possession of that information. But from a message he had received a minute ago he understood that the hon. Gentleman desired his presence.


No, I did not say so.


said he had only stated that from a message he had received he understood the hon. Gentleman required his presence, and that this Question could be only satisfactorily answered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He was sorry that the misunderstanding had arisen, because otherwise he might have continued his occupation elsewhere. The hon. Gentleman thought that these continual Motions for a second Consolidated Fund Bill were to be deprecated. He confessed he received that declaration with a good deal of surprise, because ever since he had had to do with the Treasury, either as Financial Secretary or as Chancellor of the Exchequer, the complaint of the Opposition had been that the Government got through the session with a single Consolidated Fund Bill at the end of March, and the Appropriation Bill at the end of the session. Now that they proposed to introduce an intermediate Consolidated Fund Bill, the complaint was that there was more than one. No one who knew what the present Opposition was like would be surprised that they criticised the action of the Government whatever it was, although in so doing they contradicted themselves. In the present session, owing to the course of Supply before the end of the financial year, the Government were unable to obtain a sufficient amount of money for the various services to carry them through the session, and therefore they were obliged to come for a Consolidated Fund Bill to enable the money since voted by the House to be issued out of the Consolidated Fund. He hoped he had made it clear to the hon. Gentleman why it was necessary to have this Consolidated Fund Bill.

The hon. Gentleman asked whether there would be another Consolidated Fund Bill during the present session. Technically there would not be a third Bill during the present session, as the Appropriation Bill would serve the purpose. In a certain sense the Appropriation Bill was a Consolidated Fund Bill, because it authorised the issue of money out of the Consolidated Fund in exactly the same way as a Consolidated Fund Bill did; but the Appropriation Bill authorised the issue of money for the particular purposes for which Parliament had voted the money. It was absolutely in accordance with precedent to have one Consolidated Fund Bill at the close of March, and an Appropriation Bill at the close of the session. It was necessary in the special circumstances of this year to have an intermediate Consolidated Fund Bill to authorise the issue of further sums out of the Exchequer. He was only surprised that when, owing almost to what he might call an accident, the wish of the Opposition for such an intermediate Bill was at length gratified, it should be made a subject of complaint against the Government.


expressed his surprise that, upon a simple request for information as to why the Motion was necessary at the present time, the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have considered it his duty to make an absolutely unprovoked attack on the Opposition. The right hon. Gentleman evidently thought it was his business not only to lecture his own supporters but the Opposition as well. He thought the present Opposition had been more indulgent towards the Government than any other Opposition. Only the other day they allowed the Third Reading of the Agricultural Rates Bill to pass through without a single word. Upon no occasion had they unduly prolonged criticism, but if their efforts in this direction were going to call forth such speeches as they had just heard from the Chancellor of the Exchequer they would have to reconsider their position, and see if they could not take a more intelligent interest in some of the measures brought before the House. He did not believe any responsible spokesman of the Opposition could be quoted as demanding three Consolidated Fund Bills during tit session The

Motion now made was only necessary owing to the bungling of the Government at an earlier period of the session. If the Government had utilised the time of the House properly this Motion would not have been necessary. He wished to remind the right hon. Gentleman that when he accused the Opposition of devoting their time to contradicting one another that kind of speech was not likely to facilitate getting through the business of his Department. As for sending for the Chancellor of the Exchequer they had done no such thing, because they would never think of sending for the right hon. Gentleman in order to expedite business. He did not know whether the Secretary to the Treasury had anything more to add to the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but as a protest against the speech of the right hon. Gentleman he should press this matter to a Division.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 147; Noes, 92. (Division List No. 197.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Dalkeith, Earl of Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W
Anson, Sir William Reynell Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hickman, Sir Alfred
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. H. O. Davenport, William Bromley Hoare, Sir Samuel
Arrol, Sir William Denny, Colonel Hogg, Lindsay
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Dickson, Charles Scott Hope, J. F.(Sheffield Brightside
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir J. C. Houston, Robert Paterson
Bagot, Capt, Josceline fitzRoy Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham
Bailey, James (Walworth) Doxford, Sir William Theodore Hunt, Rowland
Balcarres, Lord Duke, Henry Edward Jameson, Major J. Eustace
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. Hart Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W.(Leeds) Fellowes, Rt. Hn. Ailwyn Edw. Laurie, Lieut.-General
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J.(Manc'r.) Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow
Bignold, Sir Arthur Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. Lawrence, Sir J. Monmouth)
Bingham, Lord Finlay, Sir R. B.(Inv'rn'ssB'ghs) Lawson, John G. (Yorks, N.R.)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Fisher, William Hayes Lee, Arthur H.(Hants. Fareham)
Bond, Edward Fison, Frederick William Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Brassey, Albert FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Forster, Henry William Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Brymer, William Ernest Gardner, Ernest Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.
Bull, William James Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Long, Col. Chas. W. Evesham
Butcher, John George Gordon, Hn. J. E.(Elgin & Nairn) Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)
Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Lyttelton, Rt. Hon Alfred
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS.Edm'nds) Macdona, John Cumming
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J. A.(Worc.) Grenfell, William Henry M'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool)
Chapman, Edward Hall, Edward Marshall M'Calmont, Colonel James
Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. Hamilton, Marqof (L'nd'nderry) M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W.)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow Hare, Thomas Leigh Majendie, James A. H.
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Hay, Hn. Claude George Marks, Harry Hananel
Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.) Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley) Martin, Richard Biddulph
Cross Alexander (Glasgow) Heaton, John Henniker Melville, Beresford Valentine
Milvain, Thomas Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart
Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants) Purvis, Robert Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Pym, C. Guy Stroyon, John
Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne Strutt, Hn. Charles Hedley
Morpeth, Viscount Reid, James (Greenock) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Morrell, George Herbert Remnant, Jas. Farquharson Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Morrison, James Archibald Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine Tritton, Charles Ernest
Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Renwick, George Tuke, Sir John Batty
Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) Ridley, S. Forde Turnour, Viscount
Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H.
O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon
Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye Whiteley, H. (Ashton und Lyne)
Pemberton, John S. G. Round, Rt. Hon. James Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Percy, Earl Royds, Clement Molyneux Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Pierpoint, Robert Rutherford. John (Lancashire)
Pilkington, Colonel Richard Sackville, Col. S G. Stopford TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir
Platt-Higgins, Frederick Skewes-Cox, Thomas Alexander Acland-Hood and
Plummer, Sir Walter R. Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East Viscount Valentia.
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Spear, John Ward
Pretyman, Ernest George Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.)
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Grant, Corrie Rickett, J. Compton
Ainsworth, John Stirling Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil) Robson, William Snowdon
Ashton, Thomas Gair Higham, John Sharp Roe, Sir Thomas
Atherley-Jones, L. Hobhouse, C.E.H. (Bristol, E. Runciman, Walter
Barran, Rowland Hirst Hutchinson, Dr. Chas. Fredk. Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Bell, Richard Joicey, Sir James Shackleton, David James
Benn, John Williams Jones, Leif (Appleby Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)
Black, Alexander William Kearley, Hudson E. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Boland, John Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan W.) Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Brigg, John Lamont, Norman Slack, John Bamford
Bright, Allan Heywood Langley, Batty Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Brown, George, M. (Edinburgh Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Soares, Ernest J.
Burns, John Layland-Barratt, Francis Spencer, Rt Hn C.R.(Northants
Burt, Thomas Lewis, John Herbert Sullivan, Donal
Buxton, N. E.(York NR Whitby) Lyell, Charles Henry Tennant, Harold John
Caldwell, James Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Toulmin, George
Causton, Richard Knight Markham, Arthur Basil Villiers, Ernest Amherst
Cawley, Frederick Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Wallace, Robert
Channing, Francis Allston Murphy, John White, George (Norfolk)
Cheetham, John Frederick Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Cremer, William Randal Norman, Henry Whiteley, George (York, W. R)
Delany, William Norton Capt. Cecil William Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Duncan, J. Hastings O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Edwards, Frank O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Wills, Arthur Walters(N. Dorset)
Ellice, Capt. EC(SAndrw'sBghs) O'Malley, William Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) O'Mara, James Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Eve, Harry Trelawney Partington, Oswald Woodhouse, Sir J.(Huddersf'd)
Fenwick, Charles Perks, Robert William
Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N.E.) Pirie, Dunean V. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries) Dalziel and Mr. Mooney.
Goddard, Daniel Ford Richards, Thomas

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow Committee to sit again To-morrow.