HC Deb 17 July 1905 vol 149 cc893-6
MR. MACVEAGH (Down, S.)

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether his attention has been called to the fact that at the passing of the Reform Act of 1832 the population of Ireland entitled that country to 261 Members, and that a demand for an increase in the Irish, representation to that figure was rejected by the British Parliament on the ground that the Act of Union fixed the Irish representation for ever at the present figure; whether he is aware that the Ministers of the time and both English Parties insisted that the Act of Union was a treaty between Great Britain and Ireland, and could not be altered unless by consent of both parties; and whether he can state on what grounds it is proposed to make population the test when the population has declined, seeing that this Parliament refused to accept that test when the Irish population had largely increased.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

Such information as I have in my possession does not lead me to believe that the hon. Gentleman is accurate in his statement in the first portion of his Question, but he may have been able to give a more detailed examination to the debates of 1831–32 than I have been able. I have not come across the statement to which he refers. As regards the original arrangement in the Act of Union, the representation of Ireland appears, as far as it can be made out, to have been fixed upon the double consideration of taxable value and population. ["Oh."] I may be wrong.

MR. JOHN REDMOND

You are.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I understood that view was common property. I do not know how that would work out on the present occasion. It is not my business to make the necessary inquiries, and it is not the plan on which the Government propose to proceed.

MR. JOHN REDMOND

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is not aware that Mr. Stanley, in dealing with this subject in reference to the Reform Act of 1832, refused to increase the number of Irish Members, or to take into consideration the increase of population, because he argued that Ireland was stopped from asking more having accepted the figure of 100 in the Act of Union.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

It is possible; if the hon. Gentleman has seen that reference, I have no doubt it is accurate. I have come across some obiter dicta of independent Members of that time, but not any authoritative statement of the then Government which bears out the contention in the Question. But I do not wish to assert a negative; if the hon. Gentleman knows it, I quite accept his statement.

MR. JOHN REDMOND

Might I most respectfully suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that before he seriously proposes to interfere with the representation of Ireland he ought to make himself acquainted with the facts?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I think the hon. Gentleman does me, quite unconsciously, some injustice. I have made myself acquainted with the fact that all the provisions of the Act of Union relating to the representation of Ireland's counties and boroughs, or almost all, have been violated, chiefly by those with whom he acts.

MR. JOHN REDMOND

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I made a respectful suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman that he ought to have made himself acquainted with the facts: is he entitled in answer to that suggestion to make an argumentative statement?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

On the point of order, Sir, may I ask whether, when I am reproached with ignorance—

MR. JOHN REDMOND

You admitted it.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

With ignorance of the fundamental considerations that ought to govern the conduct of the House in this matter, I am to be debarred from stating and proving that I had adequate knowledge as regards the matter in hand.

MR. T. W. RUSSELL

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the difference of opinion which exists on this question, he will not consider the propriety of publishing, as a Parliamentary Paper, first, the Act of Union, and secondly, the brief debate, for such it was, which took place in 1832 on the question of the Irish representation.

*MR. SPEAKER

That question does not arise out of this.

MR. MACVEAGH

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Mr. Stanley, who made this declaration, was Chief Secretary for Ireland, and subsequently became Lord Derby? As it was an official declaration on the part of the Government, will the right hon. Gentleman circulate that speech?

*MR. SPEAKER

That also does not arise out of the Question on the Paper.

SIR GEORGE BARTLEY (Islington, N.)

Is it not the fact that the result of the Union with Ireland for the first thirty years of the last century was largely to increase the population of Ireland?

[No Answer was returned.]