HC Deb 07 July 1905 vol 148 cc1497-505

As amended (by the Standing Committee) considered.

MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)

, on behalf of the hon. Member for West Donegal, moved the Amendment standing in his name.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 2, line 31, after the word 'or,' to insert the word 'knowingly.'"—(Mr. T. W. Russell.).

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."


objected. He had, he said, intended to move an Amendment to Clause 11, which he understood had been put in solely at the instance of publicans. It would unfairly penalise sober people. It provided that a sober person who went into a public-house and offered a glass of beer to another man might be subject to fine and imprisonment. The Bill was no doubt aimed at drunken persons, but surely, in view of the difficulty or telling when a man was drunk, the clause should be more definite. He suggested it required the addition of the word "obviously" before the words "drunken person." The difficulty was to decide when a man was drunk. He had had to do that thousands of times, but different people held different views. One thought a man excited by a single glass of beer was drunk: another held that he must be totally incapable before he could be so described. No man would be safe under the Bill if he went into a public-house and offered to stand a drink. He was not in favour of the habit of standing drinks all round: but he had stood drinks in his time—no not at an Election—because that was dangerous and petitions might be in the air—but he did think the clause ought to have been more carefully constructed, and under the circumstances he should feel it his duty to vote against the Bill unless Clause 11 was amended.


said the clause had been inserted at the request of the Dublin Publicans' Society for the protection of publicans, who complained that, while they were liable to punishment for serving a drunken man, it often occurred that the drink was called for by a perfectly sober man and given to, a drunken person, and it was not fair that they should be penalised in that case. He hoped the Bill would under the circumstances be read a third time.


agreed that the wording of the clause was too drastic. In reply to the question raised by a previous speaker, there was no such provision in the English licensing law. While he was not prepared to oppose the Third Reading he did feel sorry that the hon. Member had lost his opportunity of moving his very proper Amendment.


asked if he could move to re-commit the Bill in respect of Clause 11.


Such a Motion would be in order but the hon. and gallant Member could not make it as he has exhausted his right of speech.


undertook to introduce the word "knowingly" in another place, so as to make it punishable for a man to knowingly give drink to a drunken person."


I should prefer the words to a "manifestly drunken person."


feared that that would lead to considerable difficulties of interpretation.

MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN (Kilkenny, N.)

urged the hon. and gallant Member to accept the offer of the Government. He quite sympathised with him, and concurred that anything which was the outcome of an agreement between the trade and the temperance party should have been viewed with special suspicion by the Government.

MR. NOLAN (Louth, S.)

said it had been stated in the debate that the publicans of Ireland had been consulted with regard to the provisions of this Bill, and that they were in favour of it. He accepted that statement in good faith, and he, for one, should not attempt to challenge either the honesty or the intelligence of the publicans of Ireland. He knew that many of the publicans of Ireland were highly respectable and intelligent men and good citizens, but, with all due respect both to the publicans of Ireland, who appeared to have been consulted, and all the other people who had been and were still connected with the pressing forward of this measure, he ventured to say that this Bill was uncalled for, ill-considered, mischievous in its provisions, and offensive to every Irishman who had any regard for the fair fame of his country. The very title "Drunkenness (Ireland) Bill" was offensive. If there was one man in Ireland who indulged to excess in strong drink he should say that there was too much drunkenness in Ireland. Unfortunately there was more than one person who indulged in strong drink in Ireland, but he utterly denied that the number who indulged to excess in Ireland was any greater than in England, Scotland, or Wales. Therefore, he resented any special measure of this kind being brought forward to deal with drunkenness in Ireland which was not applicable to Great Britain as well. He was proud to say that there were at the present time healthy influences at work which were bringing about a very great change in the habits of the people of Ireland in regard to indulging in strong drink. Although those influences might not be of such a sweeping character, yet he believed that the steady growth of the temperance movement in Ireland, based upon moderation and religious suasion, would have a far more beneficial effect than any coercive measures of this character which might be passed by this House. He considered this Act, if passed, would be an addition to the long list of coercive Acts which had been applied to Ireland. This measure in its former stages appeared to have been smuggled through the House. It was not debated on the Second Reading, and it had been got through after midnight in a hole-and-corner way without the knowledge of the majority of the Members of the Irish Party in the House.


The Second Reading was passed on the Motion of the hon. Member for Donegal on a Friday afternoon.


said it got through Committee in the same way. Clause 13 would compel a husband to give evidence against his wife, and the wife to give evidence against her husband. To his mind such a proposal was an outrage upon family life and the social relations which existed in Ireland. So far as families in Ireland were concerned, the proposals in this Bill were an outrage on common sense. He moved, as an Amendment, "That the Bill be recommitted to a Committee of the whole House in respect of Amendments to Clauses 11 and 13."

MR. JOHN WILSON (Glasgow, St. Rollox)

seconded the Amendment.

Amendment proposed— To leave out from the word 'be,' to the end of the Question, and add the words 'recommitted to a Committee of the whole House in respect of Clauses 11 and 13.'"—(Mr. Nolan.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. MOONEY (Dublin County, S.)

supported the Amendment. He said Clause 13 would compel a wife to give evidence

against her husband, and a husband to give evidence against his wife. He did not believe that there was a provis on of that kind in any English Act of a similar character. He thought his hon. friend was quite justified in moving the recommittal of this Bill.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 137; Noes, 22. (Division List No. 251.)

Ainsworth, John Stirling Gordon, Hn J E (Elgin & Nairn) O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid)
Allen, Charles P. Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) O'Dowd, John
Bain, Colonel James Robert Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.
Baker, Joseph Allen Hammond, John Parrott, William
Balcarres, Lord Hayden, John Patrick Partington, Oswald
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hayter, Rt Hn. Sir Arthur D. Philipps, John Wynford
Barran, Rowland Hirst Helder, Augustus Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Pryce-Jones, Lt. Col. Edward
Bell, Richard Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Reddy, M.
Boland, John Higham, John Sharp Reid, James (Greenock)
Bowles, Lt-Col H F (Middlesex) Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Reid, Sir R Threshie (Dumfries
Brigg, John Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Bright, Allan Heywood Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham Rickett, J. Compton
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Hudson, George Bickersteth Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Burns, John Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Burt, Thomas Jacoby, James Alfred Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Butcher, John George Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Round, Rt. Hn. James
Buxton, NE(York, NR, Whitby) Joicey, Sir James Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland)
Caldwell, James Jones, David B. (Swansea) Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Cameron, Robert Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Campbell, Rt Hn J A (Glasgow) Joyce, Michael Shaw-Stewart, Sir H (Renfrew
Campbell, J H M (Dublin Univ. Kitson, Sir James Sheehy, David
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Lambert, George Slack, John Bamford
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Lamont, Norman Soares, Ernest J.
Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Spear, John Ward
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart
Cawley, Frederick Layland-Barratt, Francis Stone, Sir Benjamin
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Sullivan, Donal
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Leng, Sir John Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow Lewis, John Herbert Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Cripps, Charles Alfred Lloyd-George, David Thorburn, Sir Walter
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth Tomkinson, James
Dickinson, Robert Edmond Lyell, Charles Henry Toulmin, George
Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Tuke, Sir John Batty
Donelan, Captain A. MacVeagh, Jeremiah Turnour, Viscount
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Vincent, Col Sir C E H (Sheffield)
Duffy, William J. M'Kenna, Reginald Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Duncan, J. Hastings Martin, Richard Biddulph Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Dunn, Sir William Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Welby, Lt. Col. A C E. (Taunton)
Edwards, Frank Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Fellowes, Rt. Hn Ailwyn Edw. Moss, Samuel Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Fenwick, Charles Mount, William Arthur Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong.
Flavin, Michael Joseph Mobray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.) Murphy, John TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. T. W. Russell and Mr. Edward Mitchell.
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Goddard, Daniel Ford Nussey, Thomas Willans
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F Cayzer, Sir Charles William Doogan, P. C.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Cullinan, J. Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.
Banner, John S. Harmood- Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J (Manc'r
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N Shipman, Dr. John G.
Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Stanley, Edward Jas (Somerset
Flower, Sir Ernest O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Tuff, Charles
Flynn, James Christopher O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Pease, Herb Pike (Darlington)
Greene, Henry D (Shrewsbury Purvis, Robert TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Mooney and Mr. Nolan.
Groves, James Grimble Rankin, Sir James
Lundon, W. Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Main Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 147; Noes, 18. (Division List No. 252.)

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Gordon, Hn J. E. (Elgin & Nairn Philipps, John Wynford
Ainsworth, John Stirling Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Allen, Charles P. Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Power, Patrick Joseph
Atkinson, Rt. Hn. John Hammond, John Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Bain, Colonel James Robert Hayden, John Patrick Reddy, M.
Balcarres, Lord Helder, Augustus Reid, James (Greenock)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries
Barran, Rowland Hirst Higham, John Sharp Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Hogg, Lindsay Rickett, J. Compton
Bell, Richard Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Boland, John Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Brigg, John Hudson, George Bickersteth Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Bright, Allan Heywood Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Jacoby, James Alfred Round, Rt. Hon. James
Burns, John Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland)
Burt, Thomas Joicey, Sir James Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Butcher, John George Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)
Buxton, N E (York, N R, Whitby Joyce, Michael Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Caldwell, James Kilbride, Denis Shaw-Stewart, Sir H. (Renfrew
Cameron, Robert Kimber, Sir Henry Sheehy, David
Campbell, Rt Hn J A (Glasgow) Kitson, Sir James Shipman, Dr. John G.
Campbell, J. H M (Dublin Univ. Lambert, George Slack, John Bamford
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Lamont, Norman Sloan, Thomas Henry
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool Soares, Ernest J.
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Spear, John Ward
Cawley, Frederick Layland-Barratt, Francis Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Sullivan, Donal
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Leng, Sir John Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Lewis, John Herbert Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow Lloyd-George, David Thorburn, Sir Walter
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th) Tomkinson, James
Cremer, William Randal Lyell, Charles Henry Toulmin, George
Cripps, Charles Alfred MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Tuff, Charles
Crooks, William MacVeagh, Jeremiah Tuke, Sir John Batty
Cullinan, J. M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Turnour, Viscount
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway Martin, Richard Biddulph Valentia, Viscount
Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield
Donelan, Captain A. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S
Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark) Moss, Samuel Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Duffy, William J. Mount, William Arthur Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Duncan, J. Hastings Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Dunn, Sir William Murphy, John Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Edwards, Frank Norton, Capt. Cecil William Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Fellowes, Rt Hn Ailwyn Edward O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Fenwick, Charles O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J. (Manc'r O'Dowd, John TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. T. W. Russell and Mr. Edward Mitchell.
Flavin, Michael Joseph O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Flower, Sir Ernest Parrott, William
Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John Partington, Oswald
Goddard, Daniel Ford Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington)
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F Baker, Joseph Allen Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Banner, John S. Harmood- Finch, Rt. Hn. George H.
Allsopp, Hon. George Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.
Austin, Sir John Doogan, P. C. Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury
Groves, James Grimble O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Colonel Nolan and Mr. Mooney.
Lundon, W. O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W
Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Purvis, Robert

Question put, and agreed to.