§ MR. LONSDALE (Armagh, Mid.)I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if it is intended to continue in Sir Antony MacDonnell, as Under-Secretary, special and extraordinary powers beyond the usual rights of Civil servants.
THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BAMOUR,) Manchester, E.In my view it would be unconstitutional in the highest degree to give any Under-Secretary extraordinary powers such as could not be exercised by other Civil servants. But it is quite constitutional for a Minister, when inviting some one outside the Civil Service to become an Under-Secretary, to assure him that he will be treated on terms of the utmost confidence and be given full licence to lay before his chief schemes which he conceives to be for the advantage of the interests committed to the Department. My hon. friend may rest assured that there is no chance of these powers being again exceeded owing to misunderstandings such as those which were dealt with in recent debates.
§ SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN (Stirling Burghs)If my memory serves 904 me rightly, the right hon. Gentleman said last night that he had no objection to lay on the Table the conditions of Sir Antony MacDonnell's appointment, and the Chief Secretary on another occasion said the same thing. But the two positives appear now to make a negative.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThe right hon. Gentleman is misrepresenting me, unintentionally.
SIR H.CAMPBELL-BANNERMANSeeing that so much turns on it, will the right hon. Gentleman lay on the Table the Papers which passed when Sir Antony MacDonnell was appointed?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThere is a Question on the subject, addressed to my right hon. friend, standing on the Paper for to-morrow. I have not had time yet to consult with him in connection with the subject of the interruptions in last night's debate. I have made myself acquainted with the fact that there were letters which did pass between the Chief Secretary and Sir Antony MacDonnell; but they were private letters, and I am not sure that anything would be gained by laying them on the Table.
§ MR. LONSDALEWill the right hon. Gentleman say whether Sir Antony MacDonnell's position is still a transitory one.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI understand that when Sir Antony MacDonnell took the place his view distinctly was that he took it as a temporary appointment. He is an Indian Civil servant primarily, and he did not intend to devote the remainder of his official career to Ireland. It was understood to be a temporary appointment both by Sir Antony MacDonnell and by the Government; and I have no reason to believe that he, any more than the Government, has changed his mind.
§ MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford)Has he been asked to give up his appointment?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURNo, Sir.
§ MR. WHITLEYIs it not a Rule of the House that when a Minister quotes from a document that document should be laid before the House?
§ MR. SPEAKERYes, unless the Minister is in a position to state that it is not to the advantage of the public service that the document should be produced. Unless he states that, he can be called upon to produce the document which he quotes. I am answering the Question generally. I do not remember precisely what passed on the occasion referred to.
§ MR. JOHN REDMONDIs the Chief Secretary prepared to state that the production of these documents would be prejudicial to the public service? And, if not, will he produce them?
§ MR. WYNDHAMI did not quote from them. [Cries of "Oh."] I did not. I had not the documents in my possession.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThey will not listen to the explanations which they ask for.
§ MR. WYNDHAMTwo letters passed. I had not copies of those letters; and Sir Antony MacDonnell was kind enough to furnish me with the points on which we had agreed.
§ MR. JOHN REDMONDMay I ask, Sir, whether the technical point taken by the right hon. Gentleman—that he did not quote the exact words—satisfies the Rule of the House? May I ask whether, when the right hon. Gentleman, without giving the words, professes to give the substance of a document, he is not making a quotation which necessitates the production of the document?
§ MR. SPEAKERI must decline to answer a general Question of that kind in general terms. My attention ought to have been called at the moment to the circumstances and to the language used by the right hon. Gentleman.
§ MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)As to the temporary character of Sir Antony MacDonnell's appointment, is it 906 not the fact that within the last month he has resigned his appointment on the India Council? In view of that fact, will the right hon. Gentleman state what the character of Sir Antony MacDonnell's appointment as Under-Secretary now is, as it is an appointment independent of the Government?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThe Under-Secretary for Ireland is not independent of the Government.
§ MR. T. W. RUSSELLHe is independent of Party Government. He does not go out with the Government.
§ MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON (Dundee)Does the Under-Secretary hold his appointment under the Treasury Minutes?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURYes, certainly.
§ MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman's answer that the terms of Sir Antony MacDonnell's appointment have been altered?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI am not aware, that the legal terms [Cries of " Oh "] have been altered, unless an alteration is implied in the general statement that Sir Antony MacDonnell is subject to the ordinary Civil Service regulations.
§ MR. JOHN REDMONDCan the right hon. Gentleman say whether the conditions on which Sir Antony MacDonnell was appointed have been modified or varied?
After some conference with Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,
§ Mr. WYNDHAMrose to reply.
§ MR. JOHN REDMONDYou might as well tell the truth at once.
§ Mr. WYNDHAMresumed his seat.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI rise to order, Sir. I wish to know whether such expressions are to be permitted in this House.
§ MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Member may have intended only to ask for the 907 whole facts, but lie has put his Question in language which conveyed an offensive imputation, and which ought, to be withdrawn.
§ MR. JOHN REDMONDI hope the House will allow me to apologise for putting the Question in that form. I did not mean it in that sense. What I meant was that the Government might as well tell the whole truth at once, instead of having it dragged from them piecemeal.
§ MR. WYNDHAMI accept the hon. and learned Member's retraction of what I considered to be an offensive insinuation. But the Question is not clear to me. Are the terms of Sir Antony Maconnell's appointment altered? No, I do not think they are.
§ MR. DALZIELMay I ask whether the statement of Lord Lansdowne that the ordinary rules do not apply to Sir Antony MacDonnell still holds?
§ MR. SPEAKERThe right hon. Gentleman can answer that if he wishes, but I may point out that this is becoming a general debate.
§ MR. BLAKE (Longford, S.)Inasmuch as the right hon. Gentleman said that the Question was not clear to him, would it be permissible to ask whether those conditions which were stipulated between Sir Antony MacDonnell and the right hon. Gentleman, as explained by him in the House the other day, have been in any way modified or varied?
§ MR. WYNDHAMIt is not possible for me to divest myself of any shred of responsibility by this appointment. When I exchanged private letters with Sir Antony MacDonnell I had been a Cabinet Minister for a fortnight; and I was not as well aware as I am now as to how far the responsibility to this House may carry a Minister. He may have to answer twenty or thirty Questions a day on minute facts which are not before him. I have pointed out to Sir Antony MacDonnell, and he has quite agreed with me, that, in view of the criticisms to which my Department has been subjected during the last three or four weeks, it was necessary for me to see any 908 matter which was likely to be the subject of debate in this House. If that is a modification of the appointment, then it is one in conformity with my constitutional responsibility to the House of Commons.