HC Deb 02 August 1905 vol 150 cc1403-21

1. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £108,629, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Home Department and Subordinate Offices."

SIR ALFRED THOMAS (Glamorgan-shire, E.)

said that they had in the Watts-town explosion one of those dreadful calamities that from time to time shocked civilisation. Thoughtful people asked each other, were all the precautions that science and experience taught us exercised in those perilous industries. There were many reasons for fearing that such was not the case. They believed that many facts brought out by scientific research and practical experience were altogether ignored in the conduct of working in fiery seams. It was now more than twenty-seven years ago since he accompanied a scientist, who also was a near relative, for some two months in visiting all the great collieries then working in South Wales, for the purpose of collecting gas from blowers and other sources, and this scientist gave his experience in a work entitled "Coal Mine Gases and Ventilation." Among the facts that he brought to light was that an admixture of air and marsh gas which, under normal pressure, was non-explosive, would under greater pressure become explosive. The experiments were conducted with samples of air and gas free from coal dust. Those experiments proved why it was that explosions in colleries known to be comparatively free from gas, except in one or more small areas, would in the event of an explosion often extend to all the workings in that particular seam. Therefore he contended that the real point of danger was not that at which a quantity of gas and air would explode under atmospheric conditions, but the quantity that would explode under greater pressure. This, of course, was but one of many instances brought out by the gentleman to whom he had referred, and others wrorking in the same field.

Principal Griffiths, of the University College of South Wales and Monmouth, of which he had the honour to be President, was prompted to write a letter to his hon. friend the Member for the Rhondda in which he made some most valuable suggestions. They all regretted that this great labour leader was absent to-day, but they were also cheered with the fact that he had so far recovered that it needed physical force on the part of his medical attendant to restrain him from coming to the debate. They had seen that afternoon what a splendid lieutenant he had in the hon. Member for West Monmouth. He would read a paragraph of the letter of Principal Griffiths— We have had Royal Commissions and we have the experience of practical men; but I make bold to believe that we have not yet had that real devotion of the highest scientific intellect which would enable us to say that all that human endeavour can do has been done. Suppose that we were able to devote to this matter some of the keenest intellects in the kingdom, the minds of men trained to accurate observation, to the consideration of experimental evidence and to the practical application of knowledge, I am so sanguine as to think that great results might follow. It was a question whether the time had not arrived when another Royal Commission should be appointed to take the evidence now available. Since the last Royal Commission great strides had been made in scientific research and by later experience, and it would be well to have some such tribunal to focus the knowledge now scattered and widespread and make it available for practical purposes. In the admirable speech just made by his hon. friend the Member for West Monmouth, in which he showed his great mastery of the subject, he told them that some three inspectors were all that were employed to inspect the work of 85,000 men. Three inspectors for 85,000 men employed in the most hazardous and dangerous calling in the world ! Such a number was simply absurd. He would say that a large number of men should be employed, not the highly-paid inspectors as at present, but another class, one analogous to the engine-room artificers as compared with the engineer officers. There were to-day, thanks to the mining classes of the county councils, hundreds of young men in South Wales qualified to take any posts in colliery administration, and who would be admirably qualified to perform the duties he indicated. He would say that there should be one such inspector for every 2,000 men employed in mines, and then they would have some reason to believe that mines would be properly inspected.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £108,529, be granted for the said Service."—(Sir Alfred Thomas.)

MR. RENWICK (Newcastle-on-Tyne)

said he quite agreed that a Commission should be appointed to inquire into the Welsh mining disaster. The Home Secretary had said he did not think it necessary because there had been an inquest, but there was great difference between an inquest, when the minds of people were swayed by grief or sentiment, and a scientific inquiry such as had been asked for. As representing a centre of coal mining in the North of England, he felt extremely pleased that the Home Secretary had been able to give such figures as to the decrease in the number of accidents throughout the country. He well remembered the time, thirty or forty years ago, when accidents were much more frequent in the North of England than at present. It was many years since they had had so serious an accident as had lately taken place in South Wales, but he felt sure in such a lamentable event they would have been anxious for such an inquiry as was asked for by the Welsh Members. They all admired the heroism of the coal workers, and especially of those who formed the rescue party, and he thought the men had a great claim on the favourable consideration of the Home Secretary.

Another question he desire to ask was one with regard to the regulations proposed for dealing with the loading and unloading of ships. Shipowners in vain endeavoured to find out definitely what the regulations were, and as they were laid upon the Table of the House of Commons for forty days while Parliament was not sitting, there was no opportunity of discussing them. Under these regulations shipowners were called upon to provide appliances to safeguard life in connection with ships in dock. He was on board a ship in the docks that day, and it was pointed out to him that the gangway provided under the new regulations was never used by the sailors. Very often accidents were caused by the carelessness of the man. This often happened in mines, and every miner ought to keep watch on his fellows.

He asked the Home Secretary for information as to the action of magistrates in connection with motor fines; but the Chairman ruled that he could not refer to that subject. He (Mr. Renwick) then asked for information in regard to the working of the new Licensing Act, and the number of licences extinguished. Heasked, further, if any action was being taken in regard to magistrates who were passive resisters and refused to carry out the Education Act. He also referred to an increase of £6,500 in the item of contributions to certified reformatories and asked how it arose, and requested to be informed whether one increase of £1,481 in the item of salaries and allowances to inspectors was due to the increase in the number of women inspectors. He would also like to know whether any progress had been made in the rearrangement of the duties of the Home Office? It was a remarkable state of affairs that the Home Secretary should be both Minister of Justice and factory inspector.

MR. KEIR HARDIE (Merthyr Tydvil)

said he hoped the Home Secretary would be able to give some assurance on the question of the increase of inspectors under the Factories Act. Last year there was a promise that something should be done, and two women inspectors had been transferred from the temporary to the permanent staff, but that was not an increase, and it was common knowledge that the need for an increase was very great. With regard to the Wattstown disaster he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to give a more decided "reply when he again addressed the Committee. In the case of an explosion of such magnitude as this an independent inquiry should follow as a matter of course. The primary cause of explosions in mines was the accumulation of gas; but, as Professor Galloway stated, such accumulations of gas would be an impossibility under a proper system of ventilation.

In regard to the statement of the Home Secretary about the Berne Conference, he was sorry to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that the British representatives at the conference had not got a freehand and that they entered into that conference without being fully armed to agree to the decisions of the conference being binding on the Government. The Lon. Member for Stoke said that the only reason for that was to protect British manufacturers from foreign competition, but that he denied. He wished to ask the Home Secretary whether he would cause inquiry to be made into the disturbance in the streets of Manchester two days ago in connection with an unemployed procession. He admitted that if there was obstruction in the streets caused by such a procession, steps should be taken to prevent it, but he denied that it was part of the duty of the police to use force on that occasion, the question of the use of the streets being one for a civil action at law. No such force was necessary for the preservation of order, and he hoped that the Home Secretary would see to it that the rights and liberties of working men to demonstrate—which were already sufficiently restricted—should not be further interfered with.

MR. BURT (Morpeth)

said he wished to emphasise the necessity for a careful examination of shot-firers, whose duties were very responsible. He thought these men should be allowed to confine themselves to their special functions and not have an addition to their duties of manual labour of other kinds. It was exceedingly desirable that there should be a special inquiry into the lamentable disaster in South Wales. The Home Secretary's statement that he would await the result of the inquest before deciding whether he would take steps to hold another inquiry was very good so far as it went, but in his opinion it did not go far enough. He agreed with the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil that an accident of this sort, involving the loss of 119 lives, was of itself a sufficient reason for a special and larger investigation than usually took place before a coroner. He joined with the hon. Member for East Glamorgan in the hope that the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to provide a wider inquiry into the question of accidents in mines, and that might to some extent supersede the necessity for that more limited inquiry.

The hon. Member for West Monmouth had referred to the Royal Commission which reported in 1886. That Commission was appointed in 1879 and he had the honour of being a member of it. There were several scientific men connected with it, and it made a complete and thorough investigation into everything connected with accidents in mines. They made hundreds of experiments, and the Commission demonstrated the enormous importance of coal dust as a factor in connection with mine explosions. In fact, they proved that quantities of gas that could not be detected by any ordinary methods of examination could with an admixture of coal dust become terribly dangerous in a mine. Some of the recommendations of the Commission had been carried out and immense advantage had occurred from its investigations. Even in the face of the accident that had occurred in South Wales he thought they should recognise that a great deal had been done in the way of endeavouring to prevent accidents in mines. Notably in the last ten or fifteen years there had been an enormous diminution in the number of fatalities in mines; that ought to encourage them to make further efforts to try to prevent these accidents and he hoped further steps would be taken in the matter.

He hoped the Home Secretary had not said his last word on the subject of investigation into the terrible disaster in South Wales; and he would associate himself with the remarks made as to the exceedingly narrow limits of time within which they were bound by the debate. He was sure the Home Secretary must be the first to admit that the debate had been very interesting and had covered a wide series of subjects. Under the circumstances the Home Secretary admitted that he could not say all it was necessary to say in replying to the various speakers who had taken part in the debate. In matters affecting the life, health, and well-being of hundreds of thousands, he might say millions of the population the House of Commons should be given opportunity for full discussion.


said the hon. Gentleman opposite had urged the importance of having the debates on this Vote at ah earlier period of the session in order that fuller opportunity might be given for discussion. He had pointed out before that the matter did not rest with him. He would have been glad to have the Vote taken earlier, hut the time when it was brought on rested more with hon. Members opposite.

MR. JOHN ELLIS (Nottinghamshire, Rushcliffe)

We do not admit that.


said he knew that the Prime Minister himself constantly appealed to hon. Gentlemen on the other side to say what business should be taken, and the Government had done their best to carry out their desires. He had no wish to refer to this matter in a controversial spirit.

He admitted that an important Vote of this sort ought to be taken at a time when it could be properly discussed. Hon. Members who had been in the House that day would agree with him that the discussion on all sides had been of a practical character, and that it had been carried on in a businesslike spirit with no desire to make Party capital out of it.

The chief subject which they had discussed was the unfortunate and regrettable mine accident which occurred recently. He had been asked whether he would order an inquiry into that accident. He had stated before that he was perfectly prepared to consider with an open mind whether an inquiry was necessary, but he did not think he could do so until he had received the verdict of the coroner's jury, the report of counsel, whom he had specially appointed to represent him on this occasion, and the reports of the two mines inspectors who also attended the inquest. It had been pointed out that though there was an inquest in the case of a fatal railway accident, the Board of Trade at once sent an inspector to hold an inquiry. In the same way in this case the Home Office sent their inspectors, and they had two inspectors attending the inquest and holding their inquiry practically at the same time. Those inspectors would make a special report to the Home Office. That was the practice which had been followed for many years past, and he knew of no instance in which advantage had been taken by the Home Secretary of Section 45 of the Act of 1887 to hold a special inquiry in England when an inquest had been held; but he would have no hesitation in taking that course, if it appeared to him that the inquest had been unsatisfactory or had failed to elicit the whole of the facts. He recognised that this disaster was of a mire terrible kind than we had had for some time in the mining industry. If, after the reports had been received, it should appear possible to obtain any further information, he should not hesitate to take the step of ordering a special inquiry.

The hon. Member for West Monmouth had referred to the fact that there had been no general inquiry into the question of explosions in mines. The hon. Gentleman had forgotten that a very strong Commission sat during the years 1891–1894 to inquire into the question of explosions from coal dust in mines, and that on the Report of that Commission the legislation of 1896 was based. The Act which was then passed gave extended powers of making special rules, and prescribed that only certain explosives might be used in fiery mines. That, however, was really a small point, and he did not wish to cavil at the speech which the hon. Member made on this occasion. He regretted from one point of view that he could not comply with the request of the hon. Member to order an inquiry now.

The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil had referred to a conflict which took place between the police and a procession of unemployed in Manchester two or three days ago, and asked whether he proposed to hold an inquiry into the matter. As he pointed out the other day, he had only a limited power over the police forces other than the Metropolitan Police. The hon. Member stated, perfectly truly, at Question time that the powers which the Secretary of State had over the police arose from the fact that a portion of the cost of their maintenance came out of Imperial funds, and that it was possible by withholding the Home Office certificate of the efficiency of any particular force, to deprive that force of its contribution from the Exchequer. The case of the three defendants were sub judice, and was to be heard next week. Pending the decision of the magistra e he did not propose to take any action. If there was to be an inquiry, it would be, in the first instance, for the Manchester Watch Committee to hold it, and he certainly should not be disposed to interfere with the local authority unless they failed to hold an inquiry, if it was necessary, or unless the result of their inquiry was unsatisfactory. He should not interfere for any other reason. The Manchester Watch Committee quite recently held an inquiry into the

conduct of some of their constables, and that inquiry was conducted in: the most efficient manner. That was another reason which would prevent him from interfering until it could be shown that the watch committee were not conducting their affairs in the way they should do. He thought the watch committee were perfectly capable of managing their police force, and he further thought that, as far as he had been able to ascertain, the action of the police had been very proper on this occasion.

Much had been done by the Department in respect of making regulations for dangerous trades. Several sets of such regulations, including a set dealing with the ventilation of flax and linen factories, had been drafted, and published in draft for anyone who wished to make objections or criticisms. The right hon. Baronet the Member for Forest of Dean referred to the staff of inspectors, both male and female. He would point out that last year they added two female inspectors to the staff and with regard to the male and female inspectors alike, the sufficiency of the existing staff was under his consideration. The hon. Member for Clitheroe had called his attention to time cribbing, and had shown hum the drawings of a machine for registering the time worked by the engines. He was not aware how this invention worked, but the officials of his Department were considering whether it would be possible to make any use of it for the purpose of checking the abuse complained of.

And, it being Ten of the clock, the Chairman proceeded, in pursuance of Standing Order No. 15, to put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of the Vote under consideration.

Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £108,529, be granted for the said Service."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 188; Noes, 246. (Division List No. 322.)

Abraham, William (Cork, N. K. Atherley-Jones, L. Barry, E. (Cork, S.)
Allen, Charles P. Baker, Joseph Allen Bell, Richard
Ashton, Thomas Gair Barran, Rowland Hirst Benn, John Williams
Black, Alexander William Higham, John Sharp Partington, Oswald
Boland, John Holland, Sir William Henry Paulton, James Mellor
Bright, Allan Heywood Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)
Broadhurst, Henry Horniman, Frederick John Pirie, Duncan V.
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. Power, Patrick Joseph
Burns, John Isaacs, Rufus Daniel Priestly, Arthur
Burt, Thomas Jacoby, James Alfred Rea, Russell
Buxton, N.E. (York, NR, Whitby Joicey, Sir James Reddy, M.
Caldwell, James Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea) Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Jones, Leif (Appleby) Reid, Sir R. Threshie(Dumfries)
Causton, Richard Knight Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Rickett, J. Compton
Cawley, Frederick Jordan, Jeremiah Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Cheetham, John Frederick Kearley, Hudson E. Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Clancy, John Joseph Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath, N. Robson, William Snowdon
Cogan, Denis J. Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W. Roche, John (Galway, East)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Kilbride, Denis Roe, Sir Thomas
Crean, Eugene Kitson, Sir James Rose, Charles Day
Cromer, William Randal Lambert, George Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Crombie, John William Lamont, Norman Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Crooks, William Langley, Batty Seely,Maj.J.E.B.(Isle of Wight)
Delany, William Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. Shackleton, David James
Derlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Layland-Barratt, Francis Sheehy, David
Dobbie, Joseph Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Shipman, Dr. John G.
Doogan, P. C. Levy, Maurice Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Edwards, Frank Lewis, John Herbert Slack, John Bamford
Elibank, Master of Lundon, W. Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Ellice, CaptEC(SAndrw'sBghs. Lyell, Charles Henry Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Soares, Ernest J.
Emmott, Alfred MacVeagh, Jeremiah Spencer, Rt. Hn.C.R. (Northant
Esmonde, Sir Thomas M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Sullivan, Donal
Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone M'Fadden, Edward Taylor, Theodore C. (Radclifre)
Eve, Harry Trelawney M'Kean, John Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Farrell, James Partick Mansfield, Horace Rendall Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Fenwick, Charles Markham, Arthur Basil Thompson, Dr.E.C(Monaghan N
Ffrench, Peter Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Tillett, Louis John
Field, William Moss, Samuel Tomkinson, James
Findlay, Alexander(Lanark NE Moulton, John Fletcher Toulmin, George
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Muldoon, John Trevelyon, Charles Philips
Flavin, Michael Joseph Murnaghan, George Villiers, Ernest Amherst
Flynn, James Christopher Murphy, John Wallace, Robert
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Nannetti, Joseph P. Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Nolan, Col.John P. (Galway, N.) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Fuller, J. M. F. Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Gilhooly, James Norman, Henry Weir, James Galoway
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Norton, Capt. Cecil William White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Grant, Corrie Nussey, Thomas Willans White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Griffith, Ellis J. O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid Whiteley, George(York, W. R.)
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N) Whittaker, Thomas Palm, er
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. O'Connor, James (Wicklow. W. Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Hammond, John O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Harcourt, Lewis O'Donnell, John (Mayo. S.) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid).
Hardie, J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil) O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Harrington, Timothy O'Dowd, John Woodhouse, Sir JT. (Huddersf'd
Harwood, George O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Young, Samuel
Hayden, John Patrick O'Kelly, James(Roscom, mon, N Yoxall, James Henry
Hayter, Rt. Non. Sir Arthur D O'Malley, William
Helme, Norval Watson O'Mara, James TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr. Tennant and Mr Richards
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Parrott, William
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Banbury, Sir Frederick George
Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden Bailey, James (Walworth) Banner, John S. Harmood-
Anson, Sir William Reynell Baird, John George Alexander Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin
Arkwright, John Stanhope Balcarres, Lord Bentinck, Lord Henry C.
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. HughO Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Bigwood, James
Arrol, Sir William Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Bill, Charles
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Balfour, RtHnGeraldW. (Leeds Bingham, Lord
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch Blundell, Colonel Henry
Bond, Edward Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hamilton, Marq. of(L'nd'nderry Parkes, Ebenezer
Brown, Sir Alex. H (Shropsh.) Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington
Brymer, William Ernest Hare, Thomas Leigh Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley
Bull, William James Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Pemberton, John S. G.
Butcher, John George Hay, Hon. Claude George Percy, Earl
Campbell, J.H.M. (Dublin Univ Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley) Pierpoint, Robert
Carlile, William Walter Heath, Sir James(Staffords, N. W Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Heaton, John Henniker Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Cautley, Henry Strother Helder, Sir Augustus Plummer, Sir Walter R.
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Pretyman, Ernest George
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hill, Henry Staveley Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hope, J. F(Sheffield, Brightside Purvis, Robert
Chamberlain, RtHn. J. A. (Worc Hornby, Sir William Henry Pym, C. Guy
Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton Hoult, Joseph Randles, John S.
Chapman, Edward Houston, Robert Paterson Rankin, Sir James
Clare, Octavius Leigh Howard, John(Kent, Faversham Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne
Clive, Captain Percy A. Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Ratcliff, R. F.
Coates, Edward Feetham Hudson, George Bickersteth Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hunt, Rowland Reid, James (Greenock)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.) Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Jameson, Major J. Eustace Renwick, George
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. ArthurFred. Ridley, S. Forde
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson
Compton, Lord Alwyne Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Keswick, William Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Cripps, Charles Alfred Kimber, Sir Henry Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Knowles, Sir Lees Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Dalkeith, Earl of Laurie, Lieut. -General Round, Rt. Hon. James
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Royds, Clement Molyneux
Davenport, William Bromley Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Davies, Sir HoratioD. (Chatham Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End) Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Dickson, Charles Scott Lee, ArthurH. (Hants., Fareham Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lees, Sir Elliot (Birkenhead) Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex.
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Samuel, SirHarryS. (Limehouse
Doughty, Sir George Leveson-Gower, FrederickN. S. Sandys, Lieut. -Col. Thos. Myles
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Llewellyn, Evan Henry Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Lockwood, Lieut. -Col. A. R. Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Duke, Henry Edward Long, Col. CharlesW. (Evesham Seton-Karr, Sir Henry
Dyke. Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S. Sharpe, William Edward T.
Egerton. Hon. A. de Tatton Lonsdale, John Brownlee Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Lowe, Francis William Skewes-Cox, Sir Thomas
Faber. Edmund B. (Hants. W.) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Faber, George Denison (York Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Smith, H. C. (Nbrth'mb. Tyneside
Fellowes, Rt. HnAilwyn Edward Lucas, Reginald J. (Ports mouth Smith, Rt. Hn. JParker(Lanarks
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Maedona, John Cumming Spear, John Ward
Finch, Rt. HON. George H. Maclver, David (Liverpool) Stanley, Hon. Arthur(Ormskirk
Finlay, RtHnSir R. B. (Inv'rn'ss Maconochie, A. W. Stanley, EdwardJas. (Somerset)
Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.
Fisher, William Hayes Majendie, James A. H. Stewart, Sir MarkJ. M'Taggart
Fitzroy. Hon. Edward Algernon Marks, Harry Hananel Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Martin, Richard Biddulph Stone, Sir Benjamin
Flower, Sir Ernest Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Stroyan, John
Forster, Henry William Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (OxfdUniv.
Galloway, William Johnson Milvain, Thomas Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Gardner, Ernest Molesworth, Sir Lewis Thornton, Percy M.
Garfit, William Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants.) Tollemache, Henry James
Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow Tuff, Charles
Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) Morpeth, Viscount Turnour, Viscount
Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rHm'lets Morrell, George Herbert Vincent, Col. Sir CEH(Sheffield
Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- Morrison, James Archibald Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Walrond. Rt, Hon. Sir WilliamH
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Mount, William Arthur Warde, Col. C. E.
Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Welby, Lt, -Col. A. C. E. (Taunton
Grenfell, William Henry Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne
Gretton, John Myers, William Henry Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Groves, James Grimble Nicholson, William Graham Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Hall, Edward Marshall O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Wodehouse, Rt.Hn.E.R.(Bath) Wylie, Alexander TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hoo and Viscount Valentia
Wortley, Rt. Hon.C. B. Stuart. Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Wrightson, Sir Thomas Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

Original Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 245; Noes, 190. (Division List No. 323.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Doxford, Sir William Theodore Laurie, Lieut.-General
Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden Duke, Henry Edward Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)
Arkwright, John Stanhope Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Lawson, Hn.H.L.W. (Mile End)
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh. O. Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham
Arrol, Sir William Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Faber, George Denison (York) Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H Fellowes, RtHn. Ailwyn Edward Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Hanc'r Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Bailey, James (Walworth) Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Lockwood, Lieut. -Col. A. R.
Baird, John George Alexander Finch Rt. Hon. George H. Long, Col Charles W. (Evesham
Balcarres, Lord Finlay, Rt. Hn. Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ss Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Balfour, RtHnGeraldW. (Leeds) Fisher, William Hayes Lowe, Francis William
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christen) Fitzroy, Hon. Ed ward Algernon Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Flannery, Sir Fortescue Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)
Banner, John S. Harmood- Flower, Sir Ernest Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Forster, Henry William Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Bentinek, Lord Henry C. Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W.) Macdona, John Cumming
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Galloway, William Johnson Maclver, David (Liverpool)
Bigwood, James Gardner, Ernest Maconochie, A. W.
Bill, Charles Garfit, William M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
Bingham, Lord Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. Majendie, James A. H.
Blundell, Colonel Henry Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Marks, Harry Hananel
Bond, Edward Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) Martin, Richard Biddulph
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Gordon, Maj. Evans(T'r Hm'lets Massey-Mainwaring, Hon. W. F.
Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.) Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriess.)
Brymer, William Ernest Greene. Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Bull, William James Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. Milvan, Thomas
Butcher, John George Grenfell, William Henry Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Campbell, J.H.M. (Dublin Univ.) Gretton, John Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)
Carlile, William Walter Groves, James Grimble Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hall, Edward Marshall Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow
Cautley, Henry Strother Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas p. Morpeth, Viscount
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire Hamilton, Marq. of(L'nd'ndery) Morrell, George Herbert
Cayzer, Charles Sir William Hardy, Laurenee(Kent, Ashford Morrison, James Archibald
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hare, 'Thomas Leigh Morton, Arthur H. Aylrner
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Mount, William Arthur
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A(Worc. Hay, Hon. Claude George Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton) Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley) Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Chapman, Edward Heath, Sir James(Staffords. NW. Myers, William Henry
Clare, Octavius Leigh Heaton, John Henniker Nicholson, William Graham
Clive, Captain Percy A. Helder, Sir Augustus O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Coates, Edward Feetham Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.) Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert. Parkes, Ebenezer
Coghill, Douglas Harry Hill, Henry Stavelev Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Peel, Hn. Wm. RobertWellesley
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hornby, Sir William Henry Pemberton, John S. G.
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Hoult, Joseph Percy, Earl
Compton, Lord Alwyne Houston, Robert Paterson Pierpoint, Robert
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Howard, John(Kent, Faversham Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Cripps, Charles Alfred Hozier. Hon. James Henry Cecil Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Hudson, George Bickersteth Plummet, Sir Walter R.
Dalkeith, Earl of Hunt, Rowland Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.) Pretyman, Ernest George
Davenport, William Bromley Jameson, Major J. Eustace Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward
Davies. Sir HoratioD. (Chatham) Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred Purvis, Robert
Dickson, Charles Scott Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Pym, C. Guy
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Kenyon, HomGeo. T. (Denbigh) Randies, John S.
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Keswick, William Rankin, Sir James
Doughty, Sir George Kimber, Sir Henry Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Knowles, Sir Lees Ratcliff, R. F.
Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff) Sharpe, William Edward T. Tuff, Charles
Reid, James (Greenock) Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Turnour, Viscount
Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine Skewes-Cox, Sir Thomas Vincent, Col.Sir C.E.H.(Sheffield
Renwick, George Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Ridley, S. Forde Smith, H.C.(North'mb Tyneside Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas, Thomsn Smith, Rt, Hn.J.Parker(Lanarks Warde, Colonel C. E.
Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Welby, Lt. -Col. A.C.E. (Taunton
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Spear, John Ward Whiteley, H. (Ashtouund. Lyne
Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Stanley. Hon.Arthur (Ormskirk) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye Stanley, Edward James(Somrset Willoughby, de Eresby Lord,
Round, Rt. Hon. James Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancst) Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Royds, Clement Molyneux Stewart, Sir J. Mark M'Taggart Wodehouse, Rt. Hn.E.R.(Bath)
Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-
Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Stone, Sir Benjamin Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Stroyan, John Wylie, Alexander
Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Samuel, Sir HarryS. (Limehouse Talbot, Rt, Hn.J.G. (Oxfd'Univ Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Sandys, Lieut. -Col. Thos. Myles Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth
Saunderson, Rt.Hn.Col.Edw. J Thornton, Percy M. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia
Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) Tollemache, Henry James
Seton-Karr, Sir Henry Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Lundon, W.
Allen, Charles P. Flavin, Michael Joseph Lyell, Charles Henry
Ashton, Thomas Gair Flynn, James Christopher MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Atherey-Jones, L. Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Baker, Joseph Allen Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)
Barran, Rowland Hirst Fuller, J. M. F. M'Fadden, Edward
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Gilhooly, James M'Kean, John
Bell, Richard Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John M'Kenna, Reginald
Benn, John Williams Grant, Corrie Mansfield, Horace Rendall
Black, Alexander William Griffith, Ellis J. Markham, Arthur Basil
Boland, John Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Bright, Allan Heywood Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Moss, Samuel
Broadhurst, Henry Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Moulton, John Fletcher
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Hammond John Muldoon, John
Burns, John Harcourt Lewis Murnaghan, George
Burt, Thomas Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Murphy, John
Buxton, N.E. (York, NRWhitby Harrington, Timothy Nannetti, Joseph P.
Caldwell, James Harwood, George Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway,N.)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Hayden, John Patrick Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Causton, Richard Knight Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Norman, Henry
Cawley, Frederick Helme, Norval Watson Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Channing, Francis Allston Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Nussey, Thomas Willans
Cheetham, John Frederick Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid
Clancy, John Joseph Higham, John Sharp O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Cogan, Denis J. Holland, Sir William Henry O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.)
Crean, Eugene Horniman, Frederick John O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.
Cremer, William Randal Hutchinson, Dr. CharlesFredk. O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Crombie, John William Isaacs, Rufus Daniel O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Crooks, William Jacoby, James Alfred O'Dowd, John
Delany, William Joicey, Sir James O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, M
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Jones, Leif (Appleby) O'Malley, William
Dobbie, Joseph Jones, William (Carnarvonshire O'Mara, James
Doogan, P. C Jordan, Jeremiah O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Edwards, Frank Kearley, Hudson E. Parrott, William
Elibank, Master of Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath. N. Partington, Oswald
Ellice, CaptEC(S. Andrw'sBghs Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W Paulton, James Mellor
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) Kilbride, Denis Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)
Emmott, Alfred Kitson, Sir James Pirie, Duncan V.
Esmonde, Sir Thomas Lambert, George Power, Patrick Joseph
Evans. Sir Francis H.(Maidstone Lamont, Norman Priestley, Arthur
Eve, Harry Trelawney Langley, Batty Rea, Russell
Farrell, James Patrick Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. Reddy, M.
Fenwick, Charles Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Ffrench, Peter Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Richards, Thomas
Field, William Levy, Maurice Rickett, J. Compton
Findlay, Alexander(Lanark, NE Lewis, John Herbert Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Sullivan, Donal White, Luke, (York, E. R.)
Robson, William Snowdon Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Roche, John (Galway, East) Tennant, Harold John Whiteley, George (York, W.R.
Roe, Sir Thomas Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan. E Whitley, J. H. (Halfax)
Rose, Charles Day Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Thomas, JA(Glamorgan, Gower Williams Osmond (Merioneth)
Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Thompson, Dr.EC(Monaghan, N Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.
Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight Tillett, Louis John Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Shackleton, David James Tomkinson, James Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Toulmin, George Woodhouse, Sir JT. (Huddersf'd
Sheehy, David Trevelyan, Charles Philips Young, Samuel
Shipman, Dr.John G. Villiers, Ernest Amherst Yoxall, James Henry
Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Wallace, Robert
Slack, John Bamford Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Soares and Mr. Layland Barratt.
Smith, Samuel (Flint) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Soames, Arthur Wellesley Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
SpencerRt. Hn.C.R. (Northants) Weir, James Galloway

The Chairman then proceeded to put severally the Questions, That the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in each Class of the Civil Service Estimates, included Supplementary Estimates, and the total amount of the Votes outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, Army (including Ordnance Factories), and Revenue Departments, be granted for the Services defined in those Classes and Estimates.

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