HC Deb 11 April 1905 vol 144 cc1372-7

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That there be laid before this House a Return relating to Education for England and Wales, Scotland, and Ireland, for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1905, in the following form:—


was understood to say that he had explained to the hon. Member why the Return could not be granted in the form asked for. The Scottish and Irish Offices had informed him that they could not supply the information desired. With regard to University education, that was a matter for the Treasury, and it would be extremely difficult to supply the particulars asked for in connection with secondary education. Certain portions of the Return could be given, and he suggested that the hon. Member should consult him as to the form in which it could be granted.


pointed out that practically all the information he asked for could be obtained from the Estimates, and the Departments concerned might very well compile the table showing the comparative amounts granted to the different parts of the Kingdom. The only reason he could give for the refusal to grant the Return was that the Government were afraid that it would prove that Ireland was very unfairly treated in the matter. Ireland received not a penny from Imperial funds for University or secondary education, while hundreds of thousands of pounds per annum were given to England and Scotland.


said that so far as Scotland was concerned several of the particulars asked for could not be given, and the result, for the purposes for which the hon. Member desired the Return, would be altogether misleading. The Scottish Office were quite prepared to give the information so far as they had it, but the Return, if granted in the form asked for, would have to be based upon estimates and figures which would bring out an inaccurate result.


asked which part of the Return it was that could not be given.

MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.)

said that, in as much as the Government Departments were able to get from foreign countries Returns relating to such questions as armaments and so forth, there could not be much difficulty in the Board of Education getting from the Treasury the information required for this Return. He was unable to accept the statement that it could not be given. There was evidently some desire for concealment, and the refusal was only another proof of the changed attitude of various Departments towards the reasonable demands of Irish Members.

MR. T. M. HEALY (Louth, N.)

pointed out that in the last Motion they asked for money for education, and it was refused; they now asked for information about education, and that also was refused. All the items of this proposed Return were important from the point of view of showing the discrimination against Ireland, but the House of Commons by its majority, and through the mouthpiece of the Education Department itself, refused to enable the comparison to be made. The House had given a magnificent exhibition of their incompetence to manage Irish affairs, and he congratulated them upon it.

DR. MACNAMARA (Camberwell, N.)

submitted that all the figures asked for were in existence. The particulars required for the first twelve items were in the educational Blue-books for England and Scotland and the Report of the Commissioners for Ireland; those necessary for the next four or five were in the Blue-book issued annually in connection with grants made to University Colleges, and by the aid of those documents combined with the Census Returns all the particulars asked for could be given.

The House divided:—Ayes, 112; Noes, 124. (Division List No.134.)

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Black, Alexander William Caldwell, James
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Boland, John Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)
Ainsworth, John Stirling Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Channing, Francis Allston
Allen, Charles P. Burke, E. Haviland Clancy, John Joseph
Ambrose, Robert Burns, John Cogan, Denis J.
Barry, E. (Cork, S. ) Burt, Thomas Condon, Thomas Joseph
Crean, Eugene Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W. O'Dowd, John
Crooks, William Kilbride, Denis O' Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Cullinan, J. Langley, Batty O' Kelly James (Roscommon, N.
Delany, William Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. ) O'Malley, William
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway) Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) O'Mara, James
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington O' Shaughnessy, P. J.
Dillon, John Leigh, Sir Joseph Pirie, Duncan V.
Doogan, P. C. Lough, Thomas Power, Patrick Joseph
Duffy, William J. Lundon, W. Priestley, Arthur
Duncan, J. Hastings Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Reddy, M.
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Eve, Harry Trelawney MacVeagh, Jeremiah Robson, William Snowdon
Farrell, James Patrick M'Crae, George Roche, John
Fenwick, Charles M'Hugh, Patrick A. Roe, Sir Thomas
Ffrench, Peter M'Kean, John Rose, Charles Day
Field, William M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Runciman, Walter
Findlay, Alexander (Lanark, N E Markham, Arthur Basil Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Flynn, James Christopher Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N. Seely, Maj. JEB. (Isle of Wight)
Gilhooly, James Mooney, John J. Shackleton, David James
Griffith, Ellis J. Moss, Samuel Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Hammond, John Murnaghan, George Sheehy, David
Hayden, John Patrick Murphy, John Shipman, Dr. John G.
Healy, Timothy Michael Nannetti, Joseph P. Spencer, Rt. Hn G. R. (Northants)
Helme, Norval Watson Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Sullivan, Donal
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid Ure, Alexander
Higham, John Sharp O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) White, Luke (York. E. R.)
Johnson, John O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Jones, Leif (Appleby) O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Young, Samuel
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Jordan, Jeremiah O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir
Joyce, Michael O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.
Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath, N. O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred
Anson, Sir William Reynell Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H-
Arkwright, John Stanhope Dalkeith, Earl of Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. Dalrymple, Sir Charles Kerr, John
Arrol, Sir William Dewar, Sir TR (Tower Hamlets) Keswick, William
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Dickson, Charles Scott Knowles, Sir Lees
Balcarres, Lord Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Balfour, Rt. Hon A J (Manch'r) Doughty, Sir George Lawson, Hn. H L. W. (Mile End)
Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Lawson, John Grant (Yorks, N R
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Lee, Arthur H (Hants Fareham
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks Fardell, Sir T. George Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Bignold, Sir Arthur Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Bigwood, James Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham
Bill, Charles Finlay, Sir RB (Inv'rn' ss B'ghs) Lowther, C. Cumb., Eskdale)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Fisher, William Hayes Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Bowles. Lt.-Col H F (Middlesex) Forster, Henry William Macdona, John Cumming
Brassey, Albert Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W. Maconochie, A. W.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Galloway, William Johnson Majendie, James A. H.
Brotherton, Edward Allen Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Malcolm, Ian
Bull, William James Gordon, Hn. J E (Elgin & Nairn) Marks, Harry Hananel
Butcher, John George Goulding, Edward Alfred Maxwell, Rt. Hn Sir H E(Wigt'n)
Campbell, J. H. M (Dublin Univ. Hambro, Charles Eric Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.
Cavendish, V. C W (Derbyshire Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) Morgan, David J) Walthamstow
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Haslett, Sir James Horner Morpeth, Viscount
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Morrell, George Herbert
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J. A (Worc. Heaton, John Henniker Muntz, Sir Philip A
Chapman, Edward Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W. Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Nicholson, William Graham
Coghill, Douglas Harry Hoult, Joseph Parkes, Ebenezer
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Howard. John (Kent Faversham Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Hunt, Rowland Percy, Earl
Pilkington, Colonel Richard Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford Tuke, Sir John Batty
Platt-Higgins, Frederick Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles Turnour, Viscount
Plummer, Sir Walter R. Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Vincent, Col Sir CEH(Sheffield)
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Sharpe, William Edward T. Webb, Colonel William George
Pretyman, Ernest George Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Welby, Lt.-Col ACE. (Taunton
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tyneside Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Purvis, Robert Smith, Rt. Hn J Parker (Lanarks Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset).
Rankin, Sir James Spear, John Ward Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Reid, James (Greenock) Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine Stewart, Sir Mark J M'Taggart Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Royds, Clement Molyneux Tollemache, Henry James TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Tuff, Charles and Viscount Valentia.
Abraham, William (Cork. N. E.) Griffith, Ellis J. O'Brien, Kendal (TipperaryMid)
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Hammond, John O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Ainsworth, John Stirling Hayden, John Patrick O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Allen, Charles P. Healy, Timothy Michael O'Connor, James(Wicklow W.)
Ambrose, Robert Helme, Norval Watson O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Henderson. Arthur (Durham) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Black, Alexander William Higham, John Sharp O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Boland, John Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Brigg, John. Johnson, John O'Dowd, John
Burke, E. Haviland Jones, Lief (Appleby) O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Caldwell, James Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N.)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Jordan, Jeremiah O'Malley, William
Causton, Richard Knight Joyce, Michael O'Mara, James
Channing, Francis Allston Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath, N.) O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Clancy, John Joseph Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W. Power, Patrick Joseph
Cogan, Denis J. Kilbride, Denis Reddy, M.
Condon, Thomas Joseph Langley, Batty Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Crean, Eugene Law, Hugh Alex. (Dongal, W.) Roche, John
Cullinan, J. Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Roe, Sir Thomas
Delany, William Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Rose, Charles Day
Devlin, Charles Ramsay (Galway Leigh, Sir Joseph Runciman, Walter
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Lough, Thomas Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Dillon, John Lundon, W. Seely, Maj. J. E. B (Isle of Wight)
Doogan, P. C. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Shackleton, David James
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Duffy, William J. MacVeagh, Jeremiah Sheey, David
Duncan, J. Hastings M'Crae, George Shipman, Dr. John G.
Ellis John Edward (Notts.) M'Hugh, Patrick A. Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Eve, Harry Trelawney M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Sloan, Thomas Henry
Farrell, James Patrick Markham, Arthur Basil Sullivan, Donal
Fenwick, Charles Marks, Harry Hananel Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Ffrench, Peter Mitchell, Edw (Fermanagh, N.) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Field, William Montagu, Hon. J Scott (Hants.) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Findlay, Alexander (Lanark NE Mooney, John J. Young, Samuel
Flavin, Michael Joseph Moss, Samuel
Flynn, James Christopher Murnaghan, George TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Murphy, John Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.
Goddard, Daniel Ford Nannetti, Joseph P.
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Arkwright, John Stanhope Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. Balcarres, Lord
Anson, Sir William Reynell Arrol, Sir William Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)
Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds) Gretton, John Plummer, Sir Walter R.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hambro, Charles Eric Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry Pretyman, Ernest George
Bignold, Sir Arthur Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward
Bill, Charles Haslett, Sir James Horner Purvis, Robert
Blundell, Colonel Henry Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Reid, James (Greenock)
Bowles, Lt.-Col. H F (Middlesex Heaton, John Henniker Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Brassey, Albert Henderson, Sir A (Stafford, W.) Renwick, George
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hope. J. F (Sheffield, Brightside Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Brotherton, Edward Allen Hoult, Joseph Round, Rt. Hon. James
Bull, William James Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm Royds, Clement Molyneux
Butcher, John George Hunt, Rowland Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Campbell, J. H M (Dublin Univ. Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon Col. W. Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Ed. W. H. Kerr, John Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. Keswick, William Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles
Cecil, Evelyn (Ashton Manor) Knowles, Sir Lees Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn, J. A (Wore.) Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (MileEnd) Smith, H. C. (North'mbTyneside
Chapman, Edward Lawson, John Grant (Yorks N. R) Spear, John Ward
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Dalkeith, Earl of Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) Tuff, Charles
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Turnour, Viscount
Davenport, William Bromley Maconochie, A. W. Vincent, Col Sir C H E (Sheffield)
Dickson, Charles Scott Majendie, James A. H. Webb, Colonel William George
Dimsdale, Rt. Hn Sir Joseph C. Martin, Richard Biddulph Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C E(Taunton)
Doughty, Sir George Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire) Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Mildmay, Francis Bingham Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Dyke, Rt. Hn Sir William Hart Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Morpeth, Viscount Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Morrell, George Herbert Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Finlay, Sir R. B (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs) Muntz, Sir Philip A. Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Fisher, William Hayes Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Forster, Henry William Nicholson, William Graham TELLERS FOR THE NOES,—Sir
Foster, Philip S. (Warwick S. W.) Parkes, Ebenezer Alexander Acland-Hood and
Galloway, William Johnson Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington Viscount Valentia.
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Percy, Earl
Gordon. Hn. J E (Elgin & Nairn) Platt-Higgins, Frederick
MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.)

said that this question of the granting of Returns was supposed to have been amicably settled, but now the whole question was to be reopened because of the refusal of Ministers to grant information most reasonably asked for. Members could not be expected to make these calculations for themselves, and he submitted that the refusal was one of the most outrageous ever made.

Question put.