§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £6,400,618, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Post Office Services, the 1246 Expenses of Post Office Savings Banks, and Government Annuities and Insurances, and the Collection of the Post Office Revenue."
§ * MR. NANNETTI,who was speaking when the sitting was suspended, continued his remarks. He said he also wished to bring under the attention of the Committee the case of the female telegraphic operators in Ireland. He had received a letter from one of the employees, in which she said—
I beg to draw your attention to what I consider two glaring injustices to female telegraphists in the Dublin General Post Office. I am writing to you, as girls from all parts of the country are affected, and I am certain that a few Questions asked by you in the House, or 1247 even private inquiries from the Postmaster General, would lead to some reform. (1.) Why are vacancies for female telegraphists in the Dublin General Post Office being frequently filled by girls who have not passed a Civil Service examination, limited or otherwise? By way of explanation may inform yon that daughters of superintendents and other high officials of the Department are brought into the office and taught to operate the instrument, and then put into the first vacancy that occurs without any further examination. The result is that examinations are few and far between in Dublin, and when one is announced it is for three or four vacancies. People who are paying grinders' fees to have their daughters trained for the examinations, which it is stated by the Treasury and Civil Service Commissioners is necessary to secure a Government situation, and that is permissible, are thus swindled by this system of influence at which the Department winks. Of course as long as no question is asked, incompetent persons, that is as regards passing a qualifying educational examination with outsiders, will continue to secure these positions, and will, with their influence in the Department, be pushed over the heads of those who have passed by open competition. (2.) How many applications were received from female telegraphists in the Dublin General Post Office for August, 1903, Bank Holiday, and how many of these applications were granted?If he gave the name of this lady he knew what would happen to her at the hands of the officials in Dublin; but he thought he was not asking too much when he asked the noble Lord the Postmaster-General to look into these matters. A Question had appeared on the Notice Paper, but he had not seen any answer to it, in reference to the appointment of postmasters in Ireland. There was a grievance that when any vacancies occurred in postmasterships, strangers were imported from England and Scotland to fill the places. He had no objection to Englishmen and Scotchmen being employed, but if Irish employees were competent for the position, it was only fair that they should receive the promotion to which they had a right.He wished to draw attention to another matter which had created a great deal of soreness. When His Majesty was about to visit Ireland, the officials in Dublin knew that an additional staff would be necessary for the increased work. The officials in London, without consulting with the local authorities in Ireland as to whether they would be capable of coping with the pressure of work, sent over a staff of men from this country to Ireland. When 1248 he put a Question to the noble Lord on the subject, his reply was that on all occasions where there was a pressure of work, a number of specially trained men were appointed to do it. He had made inquiries since, and found that there was a great deal of truth in that; but what he wanted to know was, if ever they heard of a man coming from Ireland to England to meet emergencies. Why should they not have in Ireland, not only in Dublin, but in Belfast, Cork, and Limerick, a number of men who would be able to take up this special duty rather than bring over men from England? That was the way in which the difficulty might be met. People in Ireland felt very sore about this matter; they felt that it was a slight, on their intelligence. During the motor race last year it was said that the telegraph system broke down. Yes, it broke down where the Englishmen were, at Ballyshannon, but not in Dublin where the Irishmen were. The supervisor went into a country of which he knew nothing and was put over the head of local men. During the time of the National Convention which was held in Dublin, there were more Press messages sent from that city than during the visits of their Majesties, and there was no hitch then, the local men being equal to the occasion, but during His Majesty's last visit there were complaints in reference to the delay of the Press telegrams from Punchestown and Leopardstown. On the occasion of the visit of Her late Majesty to Dublin there was not the slightest hitch, because the management was left in the hands of local men, and lie believed that there were men in Dublin, Belfast, and Cork who were quite competent to do the work in times of pressure if they had a chance to do it. This was what the Irish Times said about the matter—
The Royal visit is to be of a semi-private character, and there is not the slightest reason to suppose, given fair warning, that the Dublin telegraph staff is not in a position to respond to any cell which may be made upon it. This practice of the introduction, temporarily, of Englishmen into an Irish public department is calculated to promote the impression that the earliest opportunity would be taken by the authorities to institute Englishmen to Irish appointments. One has only to look around and to note the number of Englishmen holding Post Office appointments in this country, and 1249 to contrast the number of Irishmen holding similar positions in England, to appreciate the fears of the Dublin telegraph staff.That was from the Irish Times, a paper not likely to be prejudiced in this matter. He might say that the whole tenor of his remarks was directed to the fact that at the end he intended to ask the Postmaster-Genera to appoint a Committee to examine into and deal with the grievances of the Postal Service generally.He had received many complaints from Ireland of the treatment of the postal officials there, and he now desired to refer to the case of MR. Woods, whose grievance he had called attention to when this Vote was before the House in the previous year. MR. Woods had been in the Postal Service sufficiently long to earn his pension, but, unfortunately for him, he fell into some little error in 1868 which brought the head of his department down upon him; he was reported on that occasion and he was fined, and therefore had paid the penalty for the offence he had committed. He believed the offence of which MR. Woods was guilty was leaving his post without permission, but MR. Woods grievance was that he was tried behind his back, was not allowed to be heard in his own defence, and that even on conviction his superiors thought his case was so good that they never inflicted the penalty. In 1874, when the postal organisation was started, Woods became a member and signed a memorial which was sent to the Postmaster-General. At that time it was against the rules that such a thing should be done, and Woods was again punished. This method of approaching the Postmaster-General was later legalised, but this man was again punished. Hp was now out of the service in which he had been an exemplary officer; he discharged his duties with fidelity, and to the satisfaction of his superior officers. What he (Mr. Nannetti) desired to put to the Committee, was that those offences were so far back as 1868 and 1874, and that the man if he had committed them, was punished, but afterwards when he had qualified for a pension he was deprived of a portion of it because of those offences for which he had already been punished, and which were com- 1250 mitted so long ago. He knew perfectly well that the answer the Postmaster-General would give was the stereotyped answer that was received from the right hon. Gentleman's subordinates. Another case was that of a young man a telegraphist in North Wall. He in some way brought down his superior officer upon him; he had committed some alleged paltry offence and at once his salary was reduced from 24s. to 20s. a week. He had no chance to defend himself, and his prospects were blighted by the miserable trumpery case which had been brought against him. The next case to which he desired to refer was the case of Scully. He did not defend Scully's conduct, but the system of petty tyranny which existed in the Irish post offices was of such a character that a highly strung young man like Scully was impelled to resent it. He admitted that Scully had committed a breach of discipline, but lie submitted to the Committee that the postal officials should be men who could control their temper, and no: lead by their actions a man into committing a breach of discipline. Scully was a man in the employ of the postal service: ho was a competent and expert mechanic—a kind of engineer—and was the man who had been teaching all the other operatives in the service. The action which led to this breach of discipline was that he applied for a room in the post office which he might use for the purpose of teaching his class in engineering. He was met by his superior officer most contemptuously. His officer, pointing to an old store room, said, "You can have the store room to teach your class." Another instance which he had not before put before the Committee, but which showed the way in which young men were treated in the Postal Service, was that of a young man who applied to serve at the front at the time of the Boer War as a Volunteer. When he applied he was found to be too young and was put back, but when he again applied he was taken on. He was a youth of good parentage and it appeared that he had on entering the Yeomanry described himself as a Civil servant. There was no doubt that it was done in ignorance and that he imagined being employed by the Post Office that he was a Civil servant, 1251 but when one of the heads of the department, MR. Pomeroy, heard of this he wrote to the superintendent and urged that the Yeomanry authorities should have their attention called to the subterfuge by which the young man had deceived them. To the credit of the superior officer it might be said that he told MR. Pomeroy he hid much better mind his own business. That showed the way in which the heads of the service behaved. The state of the Postal Service in Ireland was such that he appealed to the Postmaster-General to appoint a Committee to inquire into the whole of the grievances. The noble Lord had always treated him with kindness and courtesy, and it was because the noble Lord could not of himself know what was going on and always gave the stereotyped answer with which he was supplied, it was only with the object of calling attention to the necessity of thoroughly investigating these matters, that he moved a reduction of £100.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item A, 1, be reduced by £100, in respect of the Salary of the Postmaster-General."—(Mr. Nannetti.)
§ MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDcomplained that the major portion of the debate had been occupied with small details, such as grievances of a local and personal character and going back as far as 18G8. With regard to the general position, and particularly in matters which affected the men, lie considered that the Postmaster-General had met them very fairly. They had been asked to wait for the Report which would shortly he published, and he believed that most Members of the House were prepared to do so. He suggested that small matters of detail could be dealt with very much better in the private room of the Postmaster-General, or by letter or other communication, than by occupying the time of the House which ought to be taken up with discussing important matters of principle. He thought that the Postal Department was probably the most backward Department of the whole of the Civil Service in regard to its general arrangements, and, in fact, in all respects. He would compare for a moment the organisation, facilities, and charges in the Postal Department with 1252 what they were in this country 230 years ago. In 1680 letters were carried eighty miles for 2d. There was a penny post in London, and letters and parcels up to 11b. in weight were carried for a penny There were hourly collections, and ten deliveries daily in the centre of London, and six in the suburbs. He thought it would be conceded in comparing that state of affairs with what we had to-day, that no very great improvement had taken place in the 230 years with regard either to the facilities or the charges of the Post Office. But what happened to the Postal Department? It unfortunately fell into the hands of men who paid so much to the State for fanning out its rights, and eventually, a century or to later, it became a mere State Department, became what it was to-day, namely, a machine for collecting as much as possible out of the public, and giving the fewest possible facilities in return. He would illustrate that by comparing our position with that of other countries. There were many towns on the Continent where five communications could be sent for a penny. All over India communications could be sent for a penny, and in Japan 100 communications could be sent for that sum at a speed which, in a good many respects, compared very favourably with what was accomplished in this country. Taking into account the increased transit facilities and the lower cost of taking goods about the country, we ought to be able to send ten letters a day to all parts of the United Kingdom for a penny. He argued that no profit whatever should be exacted by this Department out of the trade of the country.
The evils and difficulties of this service all arose from mere profit making. That was his contention, and to the extent that the receipts from the Post Office exceeded the expenses of carrying on the Department it was a tax. It was, moreover, a tax upon intercourse, commerce, and trade not collected in the guise of a tax, as all taxes ought to be. If the Postal Service was to make a surplus it was the first duty of the Department with that surplus to make an efficient and contented staff, and to do general justice to those in the employ of the Department, who to-day were amongst the most discontented, and 1253 properly discontented, Civil servants they had. In the next place, that surplus ought to be employed in giving increased facilities to the public and in reducing charges. In fact, the public who contributed the revenue of the Post Office should get the benefit. He might be asked where the State was to get the £4,000,000 odd which it would not get from the Post Office if they did not tax the trade, commerce, and intercourse of the country by collecting it as at present from the Postal Department. He simply referred those who asked that question to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, who would probably be able to answer it a great deal better than he could.
* LORD STANLEY,in replying upon the discussion, said the last speaker had offered the most tempting prospect for any Postmaster-General. He had asked him to get rid of all his profits It he could do that he believed he would be able to meet most of the demands put upon him. He declined to enter into the question of how to make good the £4,000,000 which they would lose if they did not make a profit on the Post Office arrangements. He would deal first with the speech of the hon. Member for Dublin. First of all, as to the appointments in which he said that men were passed over. He wished the House to understand clearly the position when men were passed over. They were passed over with his authority after he had seen all the papers concerned. If they were going to proceed upon the principle of seniority in preference to efficiency they would perhaps stop any chance of favouritism, but at the same time they would not find it to the advantage of the public service. Wherever they wanted efficiency they must not select by seniority, but choose the men most fitted, and whenever they did that they would invariably find that those men who were passed over would not admit that they were not capable of fulfilling the task; and of course they thought it was favouritism. That, however, was not the case. All these cases were brought before his notice personally, and he could assure hon. Members that no favouritism was shown, and he always endeavoured to select for positions, in the 1254 public interest, the men who were best capable of fulfilling the task. The hon. Member had referred to the class of postmasters who he alleged were appointed from England into Ireland over the heads of Irishmen in the postal services. Apparently the hon. Member did not recognise that the postal service was one where there was no distinction of country made, and promotion was made irrespective of where a man was serving; and the fact of a place being located in Ireland did not debar an Englishman or a Scotchman from being appointed any more than it debarred an Irishman from being appointed to a post in England or Scotland. He believed that in the last ten years as regards post-masterships nineteen men had gone from England to Ireland and twelve had come from Ireland to England. He was only speaking of men who had been transferred from England to Ireland and vice versâ. He did not think these numbers showed the inequality assumed by the hon. Member for Dublin. The hon. Member had also referred to learners being kept for a long time on low wages before they came on to the establishment. These men were taken on as learners on the distinct understanding, which they thoroughly realised, that they could only be appointed to established posts as those posts became vacant. He agreed that it was not a good thing for them to be kept too long at learning, and he should endeavour to go into the question as to whether they could not reduce the number of learners so as to enable the established post to be reached after a shorter period of service than at the present time. The hon. Member had also referred to dual workers. As a general rule he did not think dual working was a very good thing, but there were no doubt many cases where the practice of dual working saved a worse evil and that was split duties. The hon. Member for Dublin had mentioned cases in Ireland—he presumed he meant Dublin-where the men were employed twelve months on postal work, and then put for twelve months on telegraph work. He would undertake to look into those cases, because he thought that was a wrong practice, and he would inquire into the 1255 matter with the view of stopping such a practice if possible.
§ * MR. NANNETTIsaid he did not object to the men learning both sorting and postal duties, but he thought it was unfair to the men to keep them for such a long time away from practice on the telegraphic instrument, and then suddenly send them back again and expect them to be as proficient as if they had been at that particular work the whole time.
* LORD STANLEYsaid he was fully in accord with the views of the lion. Member on that point, and he would see what he could do in the matter. There were many other questions, 'out perhaps hon. Members would forgive him if on that occasion he did not go further into detail. With regard to the case of MR. Woods whose pension had been reduced, as a matter of fact the cause of the reduction was not that referred to by the lion. Member. In all cases of pensions they were awarded by the Treasury, and those pensions depended upon a man's good conduct throughout his career, and all the facts of an important nature which appeared against a man's character had to be brought to the notice of the Treasury, and in this particular instance it was numerous irregularities, including one in the course of his last year of service, that were the cause of the reduction of his pension. With reference to the man Scully he thought the hon. Member opposite was a little ungrateful, because on a former occasion he had dealt with that case very fully and he thought he had met the hon. Member as fairly as he possibly could in making an allowance for what might be considered an excusable outburst of temper.
He would now deal with some of the questions raised by the hon. Member for Canterbury. In one in particular he sympathised entirely with the hon. Gentleman, but he confessed he could not himself see any remedy in connection with it. It was the question of dealing with lottery circulars. There was nothing he would like more than to stop the delivery of these lottery circulars, but he did not see how he could deal with them. In Canada the post office authorities had the power to open letters; but he should 1256 not like to see that power taken in this country. At one time in his life it was his duty to look through letters, and the duty was most disagreeable. He would be very much averse to any power being vested in the Post Office authorities which would give rise to the suspicion in anyone's mind that his letters were tampered with in the Post Office. The evil of the lottery tickets was great, but the remedy proposed would be a greater evil still. The hon. Member also suggested that a man who had posted a letter by mistake should be allowed, on proper identification, to recall it. That plan would be attended with such serious risks that he did not think it would be approved in this country. With regard to the question of accumulated poundage on postal orders, he agreed that on occasion it was a hardship, though he did not think that a postal order should be allowed to pass from hand to hand for an indefinite time like a bank note. He would like to make an alteration in the present system, but he was met with the difficulty that it would require an Act of Parliament. All Act of Parliament also provided that an embossed stamp removed from its envelope could not be used for postage purposes, but in cases where the envelope bearing the embossed stamp had been torn, or for any other reason was rendered useless, if application was made the money would be refunded. He had also been urged to see to the reduction of the postage on newspapers to China. No doubt the rates charged over the Siberian Railway wore excessive, but this was hardly the lime to negotiate for the reduction of the rate on newspapers sent by that route into China. The hon. Member was mistaken in regard to the charge for telegrams to France. The minimum charge for a telegram to France was 10d. and from France to this country it was one franc. Therefore the hon. Member was entirely wrong, because as far as possible the charges in both countries were the same. The hon. Member for Canterbury bad alluded to the grievance of reply-paid telegraph forms not being al owed to be used after three months; he would point out that, as all telegrams were destroyed after three months, this regulation was necessary to prevent the 1257 fraud that would be possible if the post office authorities were unable to refer to the original telegrams. With regard to the case mentioned by the hon. Member for Dundee there were certain points and recommendations made with which he was not entirely satisfied, and he had referred the matter back in order that certain points might be cleared up before he came to a decision. He thought lie had now as far as possible dealt with all the points which had been put to him.
§ MR. BAYLEYasked the noble Lord if he could make any statement in regard to the sanitary arrangements of post offices.
* LORD STANLEYsaid the sanitary arrangements of post offices was a point upon which he would be glad to make a statement. He admitted that the sanitary arrangements of many of the post offices which he had himself seen were certainly not all that could be desired. In main of them to attempt to make the sanitary arrangements really good and in accordance with modern ideas was practically impossible, and the only way to deal with them was to pull the buildings down altogether and erect new buildings on modern lines. That, as far as they possibly could, they were doing, but the delays which occurred in consequence of the difficulty of getting suitable land and making all the necessary arrangements were very great, and they were not able to progress as rapidly in this matter as he should like. He was perfectly ready whenever any case was brought to his notice to consider the matter, and the two cases which had been brought forward by the hon. Member should have a special inspection of them made. He did not think it would be right in all cases to call in a factory inspector, although he was ready to do this whenever it was necessary; and in cases where he had any reasonable doubt as to the state of things and where he thought it would have a good effect he should have no hesitation whatever in asking the Home Office to redeem the promise they gave last year, and to lend their factory inspectors to make such inspections as he might deem necessary.
§ MR. BAYLEYasked in cases where it was alleged that insanitary conditions prevailed would the noble Lord 1258 give the hon. Member representing that constituency permission to inspect the sanitary conditions himself.
* LORD STANLEYsaid he could hardly promise to do that, and he preferred to have the cases looked into himself. With regard to the question of a universal penny postage which had been alluded to by the hon. Member for Canterbury he was afraid that he could not hold out any prospects at the present time of such a proposal being universally adopted throughout the world. At present we must be content with having a penny post with our Colonies—only one more link in the chain was required—and of giving them and receiving from them a preference. He was afraid that it was not in his power to hold out any hope, at all events this year, of carrying out any such proposal.
§ * MR. WEIR (Ross and Cromarty)said that the hon. Member for Liverpool had referred to a question raised by an hon. Member from Ireland which might be a trivial matter to Liverpool, but was one of vital importance to the small towns and villages in Ireland. He thought the hon. Member for Liverpool had wandered very much from the practical side of the question. He stated that ten communications could be sent in Japan for 1d., but the hon. Member forgot to tell the Committee that the people there lived very differently from the people in this country. Their food consisted largely of rice and a little fish. The conditions of life were altogether different: the houses, scrupuously clean, contained little or no furniture, and in the warm weather, many of the toilers were attired in nature's garb or a cheap kimona. Even the blind, who live on charity in this country, earn their living by engaging as masseurs and masseuses, massage being much in favour in Japan and at a cost within the reach of all classes of the community.
§ * THE CHAIRMANThat is a question rather far away from the Post Office Vote.
§ * MR. WEIRthought he might safely refer to one or two other matters. The hon. Member for Liverpool had spoken 1259 of the £4,000,000 profit which was made annually by the Post Office, but apparently the hon. Member was not aware that a very few years ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer set aside out of the Post Office revenue £700,000 for the extension of postal facilities in the rural districts. He was pleased to say that whenever he had approached the noble Lord, he had found him most courteous, and he not only made promises but gave effect to his promises. They must give the noble Lord time to carry out reforms. He was glad to see that £5,000 a year had been given for gratuities to sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses and auxiliary postmen. Many of those faithful servants had worked for years, and when they were too old to carry on their duties it was precious rough on them to be cast off without a sixpence. The noble Lord had made a very good start in this direction, and he hoped that in future years he would be able to increase that sum to £15,000 or £20,000. They had also been told that the noble Lord was making some arrangements for wireless telegraphy, and that he objected to monopolies, and particularly the monopoly of the National Telephone Company.
§ * THE CHAIRMANOrder, order That question does not arise on this Vote.
* LORD STANLEYsaid that what he stated was that he was glad the other Vote had been postponed, because it would enable him to make u statement upon that question.
§ * MR. WEIRsaid the noble Lord had expressed a desire to extend the use of motor cars in the Post Office service, and he trusted he would be able to give full effect to that desire. He did not think the noble Lord could have a better field for his experiments than in the Highlands of Scotland.
§ COLONEL LOCKWOOD (Essex, Epping)said he wished to revert to a 1260 point which considerably concerned the public convenience. It would be within the memory of the Committee that there was a service called the District Messenger Service, which had before now come into collision with the Post Office, but they had always been anxious to give the public the best service they could at a small profit. Recently the manager of the District Messenger Service went to America, and there he saw an invention of great service, and he brought it back with him to this country. The improvement was that instead of ringing the bell and waiting, as they had to do now for the messenger to arrive, there was a telephone attachment to the dial, so that after ringing they could speak directly to the man in the office and ask if he could send a messenger at once or how long he would have to wait for one. By this arrangement the person was not kept waiting until the messenger arrived. He understood that the District Messenger Service manager had submitted this improvement to the Postmaster-General and asked for his sanction, but the noble Lord had refused it on the general ground that the telephone attachment to be employed was an infringement of the Post Office telephone monopoly. He would not go so far as to flatly contradict that assertion; but he would point out that it was not likely to be used, even if it could be used, as a competitor to the Post Office telephone. It was a very reasonable improvement on a very useful service, and he trusted that the Postmaster-General would see his way to reconsider his decision on a further examination of the matter.
§ * MR. CATHCART WASON (Orkney and Shetland)said he desired to allude to the question of betting circulars. He thought it was often the case that those betting circulars came over wholesale from the Continent, and they were then posted with a halfpenny stamp all over the country. He hoped the Postmaster-General would be able to put a stop to the circulation of betting circulars.
* LORD STANLEYsaid that if they bore only a halfpenny stamp they would be open documents and the Post Office would stop them from going out. But, as a matter of fact, they were sent out with 1261 a penny stamp and sealed. He had been asked whether, when they were brought into the office in blocks, as was often the case, he could not demand that one of them should be opened in the presence of his representative so that he might ascertain their character. He would not like to say that that was impossible, but ho was afraid it was not a feasible plan. He wished it were.
§ * MR. CATHCART WASONsaid he received most objectionable circulars. He thought many of them came from Holland. He did not see why the public should pay a penny for letters and the Post Office should be overburdened with perfectly useless circulars sent for a halfpenny. The Post Office tried to do too much for the public. The question of the parcels post cash on delivery had been raised, and he was glad to hear that the noble Lord was going to make inquiries. He thought it would be a very serious thing for poor men who had to carry those mail bags and circulars if the system spoken of was adopted. He strongly protested against the delivery of letters on Sundays. Postmen in the rural districts practically never had a holiday. They got on without Sunday deliveries in London, but all over Scotland and other parts of the country postmen were at work on Sundays. He did not know what the Sunday Observance Society had done in this matter, but he was quite sure that nothing would please the whole countryside more than abolishing the Sunday delivering of letters. Surely people could do without their letters and newspapers being delivered on Sunday, and they might conduct their correspondence on Monday morning. The people were not so wrapt up in business that they could not wait for one day in the week. If hon. Members could only see the difficulties under which rural postmen lived the House would declare that Sunday should be a free day for postmen as well as for other classes of servants. The hon. Member for Liverpool suggested that the Post Office should do without that £4,000,000 profit. He did not know whether the hon. Member would be in favour of putting [2d. on the income-tax, or 2d. more on tea and tobacco, to make good 1262 this loss to the revenue, but he thought the hon. Member would be wise to leave matters as they were at the present time. With regard to the mail service, he understood that they were now paying £9,000 for a service to East Africa. He hoped the noble Lord would look into that matter in order to see that he was getting fair value for his money. He was not going to raise a very bitter question concerning the Orkney mails as the noble Lord had promised to look thoroughly into it, but the delivery of the mails to Orkney was very irregular, and they were frequently delayed simply to oblige a few tourists. He knew that the difficulties were very great under the ordinary circumstances of navigation and the stormy weather, but it was an intolerable state of things that the railway companies could simply laugh at the noble Lord and everybody else and deliver the mails exactly as they pleased. That was a matter which the noble Lord could easily remedy. For instance last year going to Orkney ho arrived up to time at Thurso but was detained there for hours waiting for a second train and did not arrive till midnight, and this constantly took place and were matters which were occurring every day in the week in Scotland, and he trusted the Postmaster-General would recognise the inconvenience and the difficult position in which the people of Scotland were placed in consequence of the irregularity in the delivery of the mails. He trusted the noble Lord would inquire into the whole subject and see if he could not compel the railway companies to carry out their obligations.
§ MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL (Kerry, W.)called attention to the low rate of payment made to sub-postmasters. The noble Lord was aware that these men did a very considerable portion of the work of the Post Office. There were 2,800 of them in Ireland, and they were only paid £23 per annum, including salary and commission. There were in England, Ireland, and Scotland 20,000 sub-postmasters and the total salary and commission paid to them was £588,000, whereas 875 postmasters were paid £29,000. He thought this was a matter which the noble Lord might very wel look into. As showing how unfairly sub-postmasters 1263 were treated, he instanced a case where the sub-postmaster of a town resigned his office in a large measure because the income did not pay for the service rendered. The official who was sent to take his place received £3 16s. a week or, in other words, the sub-postmaster who resigned was only paid one-seventh of the amount of the man who came after him. A case had been brought under his notice where the total turnover of the Post Office for a year was £3,500, but the salary and commission of the postmaster in charge only amounted to £35 a year. He thought the class of sub-postmasters ought to be kept in view by the noble Lord when he was distributing the balance that remained. They were men whose claims ought to receive very careful consideration, because of the excellent work they were doing and the long hours during which they were employed. They were sometimes employed from eight hi the morning until eight at night. He thought it should not be said in answer that when one of these offices became vacant a dozen or more people were ready to take it up. That was not the principle on which a great department like the Post Office should select the men who had to do this responsible work. The first condition of service was that the men should be efficient, and being efficient they should get a reasonable wage for the work they had to discharge. He hoped the noble Lord would look carefully into this matter and see whether anything could be done. For some time they had been pressing the noble Lord and his predecessor to make the Irish language an optional subject in the examination for the Post Office This was not merely a question of sentiment with the Irish Members. He did not ask that English postal officials should knew Irish, but there were thousands of men in Ireland at the present time to whom Irish was the language used in their ordinary commercial business, and that should be a reason for giving favourable consideration to the suggestion he had made. He had received a number of letters complaining of the delay or non-delivery of letters written in Irish, and he considered it essential that sorters should know the language.
§ * MR. THEODORE TAYLOR (Lancashire, Radcliffe)said he wished to call the attention of the Committee to the charges in connection with the parcels post between this and other countries. In that matter the Postmaster-General had a fine opportunity of distinguishing his occupation of office by some very much-needed reform. He asked the noble Lord to appoint a small Departmental Committee to inquire into the anomalies of the foreign parcel post rates. Thus, the rate for the carriage of a parcel of 11lb., from this country to Germany was 2s., whilst from Germany to this country it was 1s. 3d. From Germany to Italy it was also 1s. 5d., but from England to Italy it was 2s. 6d. The charge for sending a parcel from England to Malta, one of our own Colonies, was 3s., against 2s. from Germany and 1s. 6d. from France, whilst if the parcel was sent by the overland route from England the charge was as much as 4s. Again, the rate from Germany to New South Wales was 4s. 5d. and from England to New South Wales-6s. It cost 3s. to send a parcel of 11lb., presumably carried by British steamers, from this country to the United States, against 2s. 1d. from Switzerland, in the centre of Europe. The other day a parcel was sent from Sheffield to Bury at the cost of 11d. It could have been sent from Dantzic to Venice or from Bremen to Buda-Pesth for 6d. This was scarcely the way to encourage British trade. Referring to the Postal Guide the lion. Member said it was far behind that of some foreign countries. It had been stated that 250 years ago letters could be sent for a penny, but the comparison was not quite fair to the Postmaster-General, because labour was cheaper then. Hut if there were there facilities 250 years ago, the fact only indicated that we had not progressed so much as we might have done. He suggested that the Postmaster-General should consider the advisability of establishing halfpenny local posts. Such a system would not cause much loss to the general revenue, but it would be a great convenience and a great public service. He believed that a local halfpenny post, within well-defined limits, in large cities, would ultimately pay, and 1265 so pave the way towards a general halfpenny inland post, which would get rid or all the present humbug as to what was and what was not a closed letter.
§ MR. CLAUDE HAY (Shoreditch, Hoxton)expressed the hope that the Postmaster-General would be able to allow a discussion of all the grievances of the postal servants when they received the Committee's Report. There were only 130,000 of the employees dealt with in the inquiry by the Committee, and those who were beyond the purview of the Committee had grievances which ought to be considered. These men had practically abandoned their right to promotion when they undertook Sunday work in London, and they were told that that work would bring them a certain amount of money. For many years they did that work, and then the duties were rearranged, with the result that they were told they would only be allowed to work on alternate Sundays. They now found themselves deprived of a certain amount of salary; and he hoped that in allocating the £5,000 to which his noble friend referred, their claim to compensation would be considered. His noble friend might not be able, at the moment, to give him an answer, but he could assure him that ho would not have brought the question forward had he not thoroughly investigated it and satisfied himself of the justice of the demand. Ho hoped that his noble friend, who was a broad-minded man, would deal with the matter not in any narrow spirit. He would also ask his noble friend if he would lay on the Table the Report of the Departmental Committee on the Indian Mail Service.
§ MR. O'MALLEY (Galway, Connemara)said he wished to direct attention to the condition of postal matters in his constituency. They all recognised that the Post-master-General was very sympathetic and that he desired to remedy any grievance brought to his attention; but the noble Lord was not responsible for many of the grievances of which they complained. He could personally not complain of any want of courtesy on the part of the present or previous Postmaster-General. The Duke of Norfolk had promised when Postmaster-General to do everything in 1266 his power to remedy the grievances of which he complained, but no improvement had yet been effected. For instance, the mails in Connemara were still carried by car, although a railway was now running through the district. As a result, the delivery of letters was very late, which was a great hardship, not only on the inhabitants, but also on the English tourists who visited Connemara in the summer months. The reply he had received was that it would cost too much to carry the mails by train and would not pay. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Canterbury referred to the meanness of the Post Office, and he certainly thought that they were acting meanly in this matter. The inhabitants and the visitors to Connemara should not be deprived of proper postal facilities even if they would cost a few hundred pounds. He hoped the noble Lord would look into the matter. There was one question he would ask the noble Lord and that had reference to the agricultural parcel post. He wished to know if anything was to be done to facilitate such a post in Ireland. Efforts were being made to revive small industries in Ireland, and nothing would encourage that so much as an agricultural parcels post.
§ * MR. SLACK (Hertfordshire, St. Albans)said he wished to direct attention to a small reform which would prove remunerative to the Revenue and profitable to the State, namely, a revision of the postal rates charged on magazines and other pablications. There was an immense growth in this class of literature, but the present prohibitive rates prevented a number of magazines from being sent by post. He knew that "Review" and Library copies were largely delivered by hand by Loudon publishers instead of through the Post. He would ask the noble Lord to effect a reform in that direction. He would also wish to direct attention to the postal rates for magazines and newspapers between England and the Colonies. The magazine postal rate between England and Canada was 4d. per 1b., whereas between Canada and the United States it was only Id. That gave American literature a great advantage, and he thought one of the objects of the Government should be to encourage the sale of current 1267 English literature in the Colonies, as one easy method of knitting more closely together the bonds of Empire.
* LORD STANLEYsaid that with reference to the question regarding the use of the telephone by the District Messenger Service which was mentioned by his hon. and gallant friend he would look into the matter again. He viewed with the greatest suspicion anything which might infringe the monopoly possessed by the Post Office. He would do everything he possibly could to ensure the convenience of the general public, but at the same time he was very much afraid of the thin end of the wedge being introduced. With regard to the question of the parcels post, it was rather a complicated subject, and he candidly confessed he was not very cognisant of the details; but the hon. Gentleman's statement on the subject was not as accurate as it would appear to be. Under the Parcels Post Convention, to which the United Kingdom did not belong, there was a uniform rate up to 11lbs. but the Post Office, having to pay 55 per cent, of the charges to the railway companies, could not come into the Convention on the same terms as foreign countries where the railways were State-owned. The Post Office had graduated charges. Up to 31bs., which was the general weight of parcels, those charges were considerably lower than foreign rates; and altogether it would be found that their charges did not compare unfavourably with the rates charged by foreign countries. Again the necessity for sea transit between this country and any other country made the rates more expensive than if it were only a case of crossing a frontier. He was quite ready to look into the matter, and see what could be done; but he thought the Post Office was now doing all that could reasonably be expected of it considering it was tied down by Acts of Parliament and had to pay 55 per cent, of the rates it charged to the railway companies. His hon. friend the Member for Hoxton asked him to give a solatium out of the £5,000 he had mentioned to 1268 certain men in the General Post Office. These men, however, had not got the case which his hon. friend attempted to make out for them. They had been employed for seven days a week, and he thought the Committee would agree that it was not possible for men so employed to give efficient service; and a rule was adopted that they should not be allowed to work every Sunday, but should be allowed to work every alternate Sunday. He thought that was perfectly right in the interests of the men themselves and for the efficiency of the service. In any case they had no claim on the £5,000, which was provided for entirely different purposes. His hon. friend asked him if he would lay on the Table of the House the Report of the Departmental Committee which inquired into the Eastern Mail Service. He would be very happy to lay it on the Table. With regard to the magazine rates of postage he confessed he was not conversant with the subject, but he would look into it and see what could be done. As regarded the agricultural parcels post, he would inquire into that matter also. Ho hoped the Committee would now allow the Vote to be taken.
§ * MR. NANNETTIsaid that after the noble Lord's statements he asked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.
§ And, it being Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
§ Resolution to be reported upon Monday-next; Committee to sit again upon Monday next.