§ MR. MCKEAN (Monaghan, S.)said that in the absence of the hon. Baronet who had intended to move this Instruction, the duty of so doing had fallen on himself. Mr. Deputy-Speaker, in his speech on Monday last, in support of the Second Reading of the Bill, had stated that if he thought the carrying out of this drainage scheme would in any way interfere with the water in St. Winifred's Well he would not vote for it, but to preclude such a possibility or to indemnify any sufferers against loss, a clause should be put into the Bill to safeguard them. Mr. Deputy-Speaker never spoke hastily; his words were weighed, and the suggestion he had made was considered by those who opposed the Bill a very valuable and important one. The Motion was designed to carry into effect that suggestion, and that being so, he failed to see how any person who voted for the Second Reading of the Bill could possibly oppose it. All it asked was that if the water supply of the town of Holywell was interfered with, or if the supply of this old time-honoured well, which was a great sanatorium resorted to by sufferers for the cure of diseases which baffled the skill of medical science, was cut off, and the water in the well diminished, the promoters of this Bill should pay compensation to those affected. The drainage scheme projected and carried out twenty years ago had materially interfered with the flow of water through St. Winifred's Well and depleted it to the extent of one million or a million and a half gallons per hour. The present drainage scheme was much more gigantic, and would be followed by infinitely more serious effects. He welcomed the opportunity of proposing this Instruction, because it afforded an opportunity to certain Gentlemen who, on Monday last he believed, voted against their principles, Gentlemen who on public platforms constantly spoke of "government by the people for the people," but who in this House overrode the will of the people; who advocated the principle of the greatest good for the greatest number, and who on the previous 1242 Monday voted for the greatest good for the fewest number.
§ MR. NANNETTI (Dublin, College Green)formally seconded the Motion.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to insert clauses in the Bill providing for compensation water for the use of the riparian owners and other persons affected by the provisions of the Bill."—(Mr. McKean.)
§ MR. YERBURGH (Chester)expressed the opinion that the hon. Member for South Monaghan had misinterpreted the argument adduced by Mr. Deputy-Speaker on the Second Heading of this Bill, and submitted that what that argument really pointed to was that Mr. Deputy-Speaker did not think the evils suggested by the opponents to the Bill would accrue, but if their contention was proved then a clause should be inserted in the Bill to safeguard the interests of those affected. But whether the clause was necessary could only be proved in Committee. This Instruction would deprive the Committee of any freedom in dealing with this particular question. It gave them a mandate by which they were compelled holus-bolus to insert this clause. The hon. Member opposite had stated that since the present drainage scheme had been in operation the water in St. Winifred's Well had diminished. The figures which had been submitted to the House of Lords did not bear out that contention; those figures had not been challenged and he now tendered them as being accurate. From them it would be seen that in 1868, before the drainage scheme referred to had been passed, the supply of water to St. Winifred's Well was 19¼ tons per minute, in 1903 it was 19¾ tons per minute. Those figures showed that the drainage scheme now in operation had not affected the supply of water to St. Winifred's Well in the least. The whole question at issue was so complicated and so intricate that it was quite impossible for this House to arrive at a proper conclusion upon the matter. He therefore submitted that the proper course to pursue was to refer the matter to a Committee, before which evidence might be called, experts on water-supply examined and cross-examined, and 1243 the evidence on both sides heard. In that way and in that way alone could a proper decision be arrived at. The statements of the promoters on the one hand and the opponents of the Bill on the other were so contradictory that he ventured to submit to the House that they could not have any better proof of the necessity of the Bill being examined before a Committee, and he was quite certain they could trust this matter to a Committee with the greatest confidence.
§ SIR FREDERICK BANBURY (Camberwell, Peckham)said the argument put forward in support of the Instruction that some loss might be inflicted on certain people owing to the water being diverted from St. Winifred's Well was a good one if it could be supported by evidence, but the only place in which that argument could be proved was before a Committee upstairs. The proper course, therefore, would be to allow the Bill to go before the Committee in order to see whether that argument was well-founded. If this Instruction was carried it would he impossible to raise the argument at all, because the Instruction was a mandate to insert the clause. If the Committee did not do justice the hon. Gentleman opposite had his opportunity on Report, which was the proper occasion on which to advance the argument for the Instruction he now proposed. He entirely disagreed with the interpretation placed upon Mr. Deputy-Speaker's word by the hon. Member opposite, and agreed with the hon. Member for Chester that what Mr. Deputy-Speaker desired to convey to the House was the fact that if in Com-
§ mittee it was proved that loss would be inflicted in various directions by this Bill, a clause should be inserted to indemnify those concerned against any such loss. On these grounds he opposed the instruction.
§ MR. TOMKINSON (Cheshire, Crewe)said that the Bill, from what he had heard, would result in certain good to the mines, and there would be an increased amount of employment available. He hoped that the Bill would go to a Committtee as an open reference unfettered by any conditions.
§ THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Mr. JEFFREYS,) Hampshire, N.said he hoped that the House would not carry this Instruction, as it would deprive the Committee upstairs of its freedom of action. Some remarks bad been made as to what was said by the Chairman of Committees on Monday on the Second Reading of the Bill. He was authorised to say that the Chairman of Committees then stated that this was an engineering question, which should be left to the Committee upstairs, where evidence could be taken and a decision arrived at. If the Committee thought it necessary, after hearing the evidence, that a clause of this kind should be put in, they would have perfect liberty to do so, and it would certainly be an unusual thing to tie the hands of the Committee by giving them a mandatory Instruction of this kind.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 59: 122. (Division List, No. 123.)
| Sullivan, Donal | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. M'Kean and Mr. Flavin. |
| Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Weir, James Galloway | |
| Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Whiteley, George (York, W. R | |
| Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich | Renwick, George |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn Hugh O. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Arrol, Sir William | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Horniman, Frederick John | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Houston, Robert Paterson | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham | Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles |
| Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. Hicks | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthnr Fred. | Sannderson, Rt Hn. Col. Edw. J. |
| Bignold, Arthur | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bigwood, James | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Seton-Karr, Sir Henry |
| Blnndell, Colonel Henry | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | Shackleton, David James |
| Burt, Thomas | Knowles, Sir Lees | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Caldwell, James | Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th | Spear, John Ward |
| Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire | Lawrence, Win. F. (Liverpool) | Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R (N'orthants |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks, N. R. | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.) |
| Chapman, Edward | Layland Barratt, Francis | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Stroyan, John |
| Cremer, William Randal | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Crombie, John William | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Tomkinson, James |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham | Maconochie, A. W. | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Denny, Colonel | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Tuff, Charles |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.) | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Ure, Alexander |
| Doughty, George | Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Morrison, James Archibald | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Mount, William Arthur | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Welby, Sir Charles G. E (Notts.) |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose | Newdegate, Francis A. N. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Paulton, James Mellor | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Forster, Henry William | Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) | Wodehouse, Rt Hn. E. R (Bath). |
| Gardner, Ernest | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley | Wylie, Alexander |
| Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | |
| Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr Yerburgh and Sir Frederick Banbury. |
| Groves, James Grimble | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |