HC Deb 22 March 1904 vol 132 cc413-7

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

Moved to resolve, That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1904, the sum of £4,256,177 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the united Kingdom.

MR. BUCHANAN (Perthshire, E.)

asked if that sum included the Supply which was not yet passed by the House. He thought it was irregular to introduce this Resolution to the Committee, which included the whole sum for the Supplementary Estimates, when they had only dealt with one half of them. Such a method of precedure was somewhat risky, because they had already reduced one of the items included in this sum.

THE CHAIRMAN

I understand that this Resolution includes all the Supplementary Estimates which have been considered by the House in Committee. It is quite true that some of them have not been agreed to by the House, but they have been agreed to by the House sitting in Committee. That being so, there is nothing irregular in taking the Committee of Ways and Means now, for that is the usual procedure which takes place at the end of the session.

Resolved, That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1904, the sum of £4,256,177 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.

Moved to resolve, That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, the sum of £39,571,200 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.

MR. GIBSON BOWLES

said he desired to raise at some stage of this Bill the question of Votes on Account being taken for six months instead of two months. He wished to know if it would be more appropriate to raise that point on the Second Reading of the Bill.

THE CHAIRMAN

I do not think it would be in order at this moment, because this Resolution simply embodies the fact that this House has already agreed that this sum shall be appropriated for the Civil Service purposes of the year, and it is not possible to go back from that. When this Resolution is embodied in the Bill for the Second Reading, then it will be open to the hon. Member to discuss the matter.

MR. WHITLEY (Halifax)

complained of the way that this Resolution had been placed before the House. All the information they had about it was a notice on the Paper which read "Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer: To vole a sum or sums of money (in Committee of Ways and Means)." He thought the different items ought to be printed on the Paper instead of being left until the moment they were moved.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EX-CHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,) Worcestershire, E.

said the Motion had been put down in the way it was always put, and there were very good reasons for that method. In certain proceedings in Ways and Means it was almost impossible to give the exact terms of the Motion because those Votes were liable to alteration up to the very last moment, and he had known cases when the authorities at the Table had been busily engaged at the very last moment adding up the Votes in Committee of Supply to make up the Vote in Ways and Means. Therefore there was a practical difficulty about giving the House full details on the Paper, and he did not think there was any practical inconvenience in the form in which the Motion was placed on the Notice Paper. It was well understood that the sum asked for out of the Consolidated Fund would be the sum already voted in Committee of Supply, therefore he thought they would do well to follow what had been the usual practice.

MR. GIBSON BOWLES

said that very few hon. Members actually knew what was the sum that had been put from the Chair. It might sometimes be difficult to place on the Notice Paper the exact sum, but he thought they ought to have more information on the Paper, and this was not the way in which the House ought to be treated. It was not respectful to the House or to the Committee to ask them to vote a sum which the, knew nothing about. He agreed that this sum was largely formal, but he had known instances where a sum of £10,000,000 was sprung upon the House. He thought some form might be invented which could be placed in the hands of Members giving more details of the Votes with which they were dealing.

MR. COURTENAYWARNER (Staffordshire, Lichfield)

said the House ought not to be kept in the dark up to the last moment as to the details of any Vote. The statement which appeared on the Notice Paper was very vague indeed.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said what they were now asking for was sanction to issue out of the Consolidated Fund all the money which had already been voted in Committee of Supply. It had been ruled that they could not discuss the different items which had been before the Committee for discussion, and the Motion was really in the nature of a formal stage authorising the issue of the money.

MR. COURTENAY WARNER

said if they only knew what the Votes were it would be very useful. He should like sufficient information given such as would give them some idea of what they were going to discuss.

Resolved, That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, the sum of £39,571,200 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.