ARMY ESTIMATES, 1904–5. (Hansard, 17 March 1904)

§ *SIR CHARLES DILKE
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he could, without prejudice to the public service, state the names of the members of the new Departmental Committee, the appointment of which he had announced earlier in the afternoon.

§ *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER
was afraid he had been misunderstood. The Committee was not a Departmental Committee in the usual sense of the term; it was purely a Committee appointed by the Army Council to inquire into a very detailed subject.

§ MR. WHITLEY
hoped that, as this Vote was closured in Committee, after a very short discussion confined to matters of policy, the right hon. Gentleman would not object to one or two Questions being asked. On page 28 of the Estimates there was a curious item of £40,000 as an "additional sum for 1466 subordinates employed in connection with the force in North China." Twelve months ago he entered a protest against the manner in which these items came in, apparently without end, years after the conclusion of operations, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would now be able to give an assurance that the last instalment on account of the Chinese War had been paid. The House ought to have a statement as to the total cost of that expedition, and, if it had not all been paid, how much remained to come into account. Another matter to which he desired to call attention was the increasing amount asked for in connection with military prisons. He would have thought there might be a reduction rather than an increase under that head. During the recent war many unfortunate soldiers were condemned to long terms of imprisonment for what were undoubtedly serious offences when on active service, but remembering the youth of many of the men, and the privations they had under gone before they gave way to sleep while on duty, he thought the time had come when the right hon. Gentleman might very well consider the advisability of remitting the remainder of those sentences. To spend £28,000 on keeping in prison the men we had enlisted was a somewhat extravagant way of getting rid of public money, and he could not help thinking there was room for substantial reduction.

§ MR. BUCHANAN
said the question of Army chaplains had frequently been before the House in former years, and, but for the closure, he would have referred to the grievances of Presbyterian 1467 soldiers, when the Vote was in Committee recently. Between 1892 and 1895 the War Office adopted the wise practice of making no difference, whatever outside the United Kingdom, between the various divisions of the Presbyterian Church, but since that date no further appointments had been made outside the Established Church. There was really little ecclesiastical jealousy between the two great bodies. They had divided India into spheres, and had acted together most harmoniously. The same might be said with regard to the Colonies and elsewhere. At Gibraltar there was one Presbyterian Church; the minister was a United Free Church minister, and he had been appointed chaplain to the Presbyterian soldiers of the garrison. That was the practice they desired to see adopted elsewhere. He understood there would shortly be an opportunity of reconsidering the Presbyterian chaplaincy at Malta, when he hoped this point would be borne in mind. Both the Free Church and the Established Church had standing committees to look after this matter, and, previous to 1895, Secretaries of State had consulted those committees from time to time. That was a wise course, but it had not been followed by the present Government. During the recent war the Free Churches were very active in doing everything they could to meet the spiritual needs of Presbyterian soldiers; they sent out chaplains at their own charge, and the only Presbyterian chaplain killed on active service was one of these Free Church chaplains. There was no question that the Free Church was fully entitled to equal treatment with the Established Church, at any rate outside the United Kingdom, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would endeavour to reintroduce the policy which guided some of his predecessors at the War Office. Referring to the arrangements made within the limits of Scotland, the hon. Member said that at the present moment there was not a single commissioned Presbyterian chaplain at any of the depots. In reply to a Question the other day the right hon. Gentleman stated that the allocation of chaplains depended on the number of soldiers. What was complained o1 in Scotland was that the ministers who conducted the services 1468 were chosen exclusively from the Established Church. The only acting Presbyterian chaplain in Scotland on the Army List was a gentleman now in Edinburgh, and in past years he had had his work done for him by other ministers. With regard to the announcement in the Gazette the other day of the appointment of a garrison chaplain in Edinburgh, he wanted to know what the emoluments were. The position of things ought to be inquired into and overhauled with the view to absolute equality of treatment being given to the ministers of the United Free Church and the Established Church.

§ MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT
said he was sorry to gather from the hon. Member's remarks that he rather objected to the appointment of a garrison chaplain in Edinburgh. This was the revival of an ancient office, dating back to the sixteenth century, and he was sure it was a revival which was likely to cause an immense amount of satisfaction not only in Edinburgh but throughout Scotland. There were no emoluments. It was a position of honour.

§ MR. BUCHANAN
asked if the clergyman holding the appointment would be made a commissioned chaplain.

§ MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT
said the position of commissioned chaplains was this. Commissions were granted in relation to the number of soldiers of various denominations throughout the Army. It had been held that, of the proportion of chaplains due to the Presbyterian body, it was better to appoint them at places—say, for example, at Malta—where the soldiers could not get ministers of their own from other sources, rather than in Edinburgh where naturally there would be Presbyterian ministers able to give their services. He should be glad to hear any views which the hon. Member had to express on that matter. The hon. Member had suggested that all the religious communities should be put 1469 on absolute equality. So far as could be equality would be secured for them.

§ MR. COURTENAY WARNER
said there was an immense sum spent on generals many of whom were, he believed, unnecessary. The proportion of generals in the British Army was very much greater than in any other Army in the world. The Secretary of State for War stated that he had reduced the number of generals. He found that while there were fewer major-generals there were more brigadier-generals than before. He understood that was what the right hon. Gentleman meant when he stated that the number of generals had been reduced. Many of the offices now held by generals might very well be held by colonels who were temporarily brigadiers. There was no doubt that the British Army was over-generaled, and that a considerable reduction ought to take place. He hoped the House would get some pledge from the right hon. Gentleman on this subject. He instanced Gibraltar, which had three generals, as one of the places where a reduction might be made. In view of the reduction which had been made in the British garrison in Egypt it seemed absurd that a major-general should be in command there, especially as there were plenty of English officers in that part of Africa who were quite capable of commanding a small force. All the political work was done by Lord Cromer, and, therefore, it was not necessary to have an important military man there because there were what might be called Foreign Office or Civil duties to perform. No reduction could be more properly made than in what was really the ornamental part of the Army. They were all grateful to the Secretary of State for War for the statement he made that he would be no party to any scheme which did not effect economy. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to carry that out, and that he would have the support of his colleagues.
And, it being half-past Seven of the Clock, the debate stood adjourned till this Evening's Sitting.