§ DR. MACNAMARA (Camberwell, N.)I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the minimum wage for day work offered to the adult Kaffir labourer in the Transvaal is 45s. a month, and to the adult Chinese labourer indentured under the Transvaal Labour Ordinance is 30s. a month; and, if so, whether he will state if there is any substantial difference in the nature of the work performed by the adult Kaffir labourer and to be performed by the adult Chinese labourer; and whether he will represent to Lord Milner the undesirableness of permitting such arrangements as will enable the indentured Chinese labourer to undercut the Kaffir labourer doing similar work.
§ MR. LYTTELTONThe answer to the first Question is, Yes. As to the second, it is anticipated that a certain percentage of adult Chinese labourers will be unable, and a certain percentage unwilling, to perform the work done by the adult Kaffir labourer, and for those I understand that work such as is done by Kaffir youths and boys, and corresponding wages, will be provided. I have already explained that the arrangement made is such as to secure that average Kaffir wages will not be unfairly competed with, or undercut. But in an ex- 822 periment of this magnitude the occurrence of error is possible, and we have accordingly provided, and the provision is embodied in the contract, that if the first six months working establishes any flaw in our anticipations, the minimum wage of the Chinese labourer shall be raised from 30s. to 45s.
§ DR. MACNAMARAAm I now to understand definitely that the minimum wage offered to the adult Kaffir is 45s., and that to the Chinese labourer 30s. a month.
§ MR. LYTTELTONI have answered that as clearly as I can answer.
§ DR. MACNAMARAI apologise if I have not gathered the answer from the right hon. Gentleman. May I have it repeated?
§ MR. LYTTELTONThe answer is yes.
§ DR. MACNAMARAMay I ask whether the Colonial Secretary will communicate to Lord Milner the undesirability of allowing the minimum wage of the Chinese labourer to be fixed at 30s. while that of the adult Kaffir is 45s?
§ MR. LYTTELTONI am afraid I spoke too tersely. I have explained that I have not considered it desirable to do that, because sufficient means in my judgment have been taken to prevent any undercutting of Kaffir wages, and if there is any flaw in the calculation and anticipations we have formed, measures have been taken to embody in the contract a provision that the minimum wage of 30s. should be increased to 45s. after the first six months. I do not understand, however, that that will be necessary.
§ DR. MACNAMARAI am sorry the right hon. Gentleman refuses to make the representation, and I shall have to ask the Deputy-Speaker to accept a Motion for the adjournment of the House.
§ MR. JOSEPH WALTON (Yorkshire, W.R., Barnsley)Does the right hon. 823 Gentleman regard the arrangements he has described as carrying out the pledge he has given to the House that the minimum wage to the Chinese labourer should be not less than 2s. a day.
§ MR. LYTTELTONI gave no such pledge. It is true, as I said before, that I was informed that the Chinese would not come for a less wage than 2s. a day; but we afterwards found that this information, which I received from Chinese authorities, was incorrect. I never promised a minimum wage.
§ DR. MACNAMARAYes; 21st March.
§ MR. LYTTELTONOn the contrary, I thought throughout these debates that to specify a minimum wage was not necessary; but it became necessary, in the interests of the Kaffir, having regard to the amount for which the Chinese were willing to come, to prevent the average scale of Kaffir wages from being competed with or lowered. We have taken measures which we think have completely secured that end; and if on investigation, after six months experiment, we find the average Chinese wage is less than 50s.— which is the average Kaffir wage or a little more than the average wage—we have taken measures to make the minimum wage Of the Chinaman 45s.
§ MR. CROOKSWill Lord Milner fix the piece-work rate, or who?
§ DR. MACNAMARAasked whether the right hon. Gentleman had not promised definitely on 21st March that the Chinese labourer would get at least 2s. a day?
§ MR. LYTTELTONI quite agree; and I think I said so perfectly frankly to the House the other day. When I gave that assurance, I explained the grounds on which I gave it, and I asked the House to permit me to withdraw that assurance. I explained the error into which I had fallen—owing to the information I had received. The relevancy and materiality of that assurance was made I think, perfectly clear at the time and afterwards. It was material to the question whether the standard of Kaffir wages should be unfairly competed with. I think every fair-minded man would agree 824 that was the materiality of the statement; and, if we secure that the average standard wages of the Kaffir are not unfairly competed with, I think the House and every fair-minded man will say that we have adhered to the real substance of that assurance. If hon. Members do not agree, they can call attention to it in the regular way.
§ DR. MACNAMARAasked whether a minimum wage of 30s. did not compete unfairly with the minimum wage of 45s.
§ MR. LYTTELTONI think I am right in saying it will not be so, for this reason. I am sure no opponent of this measure would desire that a man should receive for three years a wage of 45s. or 50s. which he is not earning by reason of incompetence, neglect, or malingering, or the like. There are, I,am assured, a certain number of Chinese who will fall into one or other of these categories, and you must allow that a certain amount of inefficients from one cause or another would be included in each hundred of Chinese.
§ MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.)And of Kaffirs.
§ MR. LYTTELTONIt is proposed that the 30s. minimum should be specified having regard to those persons, so that they should not be paid for more than the work they are able to do. [An HON. MEMBER: This is a speech.] I am unable to explain otherwise. If, as the result of that minimum being employed for this purpose, the general effect upon the wages be such that the average standard wage is less than 50s. at the end of six months that minimum will be raised to 45s., which is the average wage of the Kaffir.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis)rose, but Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I think this matter has been thrashed out. It is now becoming a discussion.
§ MR. JOHN ELLISWe have had argument and speech from the right hon. Gentleman.
§ MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)said when is the House to have an opportunity of granting the Colonial Secretary the right to withdraw the pledge that he has given to the House?
§ THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.)I presume if that question is to be discussed it could appropriately be discussed on the salary of my right hon. friend. I shall not stand in the way of that being put down as the first Vote on an early Thursday.