LICENSING BILL [1ST ALLOTTED DAY].

HC Deb 06 July 1904 vol 137 cc809-69

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

Clause 1:—

Amendment again proposed— In page 1, line 9, after the words last inserted, to insert the words 'except in county boroughs.' "—Sir James Woodhouse.

Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

SIR JAMES WOODHOUSE (Huddersfield)

I have to ask leave to withdraw this Amendment in view of the promise of the Solicitor-General to consider this question.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

SIR ROBERT REID (Dumfries Burghs)

moved an Amendment with the object of allowing the magistrates to take into consideration not one isolated reason for non-renewal of a licence, but a combination of reasons, as they had hitherto done. He said it was desirable to retain unimpaired the elasticity of discretion which the magistrates now possessed, and he wanted to insure that in future they should be able to take into consideration not one isolated reason for non-renewal but a combination of reasons. Obviously it weakened the power of the magistrates to insist on the maintenance of good order to split their discretion up into water-tight compartments.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, after the words last inserted, to insert the words' or any of the before-mentioned grounds in combination with any other ground.'"—(Sir Robert Reid.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir EDWARD CARSON,) Dublin University

said the Government could not accept the Amendment. It would be very unfair to the licence-holder to tell him that his licence was being taken away partly on grounds for which he ought to get compensation and partly on grounds for which he ought not to get compensation, and that, therefore, he would get no compensation. It was impossible under the scheme of the Bill that such an arrangement could be set up.

MR. WHITLEY (Halifax)

suggested that the Amendment might be modified so that no grounds outside those contained in the Bill should be brought in. That would go some way to meet the strong feeling on his side of the House. The point was this. There might not be strong enough evidence on any one single ground to justify the refusal of the renewal, yet the evidence on these grounds combined might suffice for taking away a licence without compensation. All they desired was to enable the magistrates to deal with the three grounds in combination.

SIR EDWARD CARSON

said there was nothing to prevent the magistrates from taking one, two, or three grounds and putting them together, but these grounds ought, in fact, to exist; they ought not to be able to add together three incomplete grounds in order to make one complete ground.

SIR ROBERT REID

said the result of the clause was to entirely alter the practice of the past. A house might have been bad structurally or the tenant might have misconducted it, but there had been hitherto a free discretion on the part of the magistrates in dealing with such cases and by the refusal of this Amendment the existing practice would be subverted.

MR. WHITTAKER (Yorkshire, W.R., Spen Valley)

said this was a very important point, and it was necessary the country should know what was being done. Justices at present very frequently refused the renewal of a licence on several grounds, and the combination of grounds was the ground of refusal. The Government's attitude was an illustration of the way in which the power of the justices was going to be materially limited, hampered, and checked. In his opinion the compensation should be limited to the cases where the renewal was refused solely because the house was not required.

MR. GROVES (Salford, S.)

hoped the Government would not give way on this point. If the licence-holder committed offences the magistrates would be able to exercise their powers as in the past; it was only to the point of compensation that the provision under discussion was directed. If the Amendment were accepted, they would, he feared, find that in nine cases out of ten trivial complaints would be combined in the manner suggested in order to depreciate the amount of compensation.

MR. TOMKINSON (Cheshire, Crewe)

said he had in his mind a case that came before the Bench of which he was chairman, in which the representative of the sanitary authority objected to the renewal of a licence on the ground that the holder had persistently refused to provide a proper water supply. The justices, in the exercise of the power which they at present possessed, gave the licensee a certain time within which to remedy the defect. He was contumacious, and it was only when, as a last resource, the withdrawal of the licence was threatened that he agreed to equip his house with a proper water supply. He feared that under the clause as it stood the power to exercise such pressure would be taken away from the justices.

SIR EDWARD CARSON

assured the hon. Gentleman that the case he had mentioned would not come within the Bill.

SIR ARTHUR BIGNOLD (Wick Burghs)

stated that during the past year only 210 licences, out of a total of 99,450, were suppressed for duplicate reasons; and in only fifty cases was the ground of non-requirement united with misbehaviour or structural deficiency. He mentioned that in order to show that in the past these considerations had not acted very powerfully in deciding the question of the renewal or refusal of a licence.

MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)

pointed out that there was nothing compelling quarter sessions to adopt this compensation scheme. There might be large districts where they would decline to adopt it. In that case, was it possible that the Government were contemplating arresting the action of the magistrates and impairing their discretion where compensation did not arise at all?

SIR ROBERT REID

And without leaving anybody else in authority to exercise discretion.

MR. T. W. RUSSELL

Yes. Continuing, the hon. Member said that the Government by refusing to accept this Amendment would be crippling the present power of the justices. The Government raised, in defence of that, that these people were entitled to compensation, and therefore they could not shut them out without depriving them of compensation. His point was this: Let them take an area, the quarter sessions of which would not put this Act into operation at all. Was it not quite clear that this Bill would stand nevertheless, and that it would cripple the present power of the justices. He knew that that was the object of the brewers; but why should it be the object of the Government?

SIR EDWARD CARSON

replied that he did not know whether that was a proper way to put the question, but he was quite willing to answer the substance without admitting any of the deductions which the hon. Member had made. The Question which the hon. Member asked came to this: the quarter sessions might refuse to adopt the compensation clause. If they had an area not willing to take away licences, what did it matter whether they put in two, three, or four reasons?

MR. T. W.RUSSELL

But you are taking power from the local justices who do think there ought to be a reduction.

SIR EDWARD CARSON

said there, again, his hon. friend was entirely in error. Any licence-holder might appeal against a refusal to renew a licence.

MR. T. W. RUSSELL

I know.

SIR EDWARD CARSON,

continuing, said, if a county had a body of quarter sessions who were not prepared to adopt the clause or reduce licences it would be because they thought it was not necessary to reduce them. At all events, if they had a tribunal of that kind with important functions, not merely in relation to licences but to other matters, they must show some confidence in them.

LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICE (Wiltshire, Cricklade)

held that the Committee was justified in calling attention at the earliest possible moment to the extraordinary position in which Courts of the quarter sessions would be placed. It seemed to be suggested that they would have to meet beforehand to decide whether or not they would put the Act in force. As chairman of quarter sessions he was one of those who would have to administer the Act, and he was bound to say that their position would be totally different from that adumbrated by the Solicitor-General. In his opinion they would deal with each case as it arose and would not beforehand pass any resolution stating whether or not the Act should be enforced. But what would be the position if there were no compensation fund established? Would the justices not be in the ridiculous position of having their hands tied? The speech of the Solicitor-General would almost encourage quarter sessions to pass a resolution saying they did not approve of the Bill.

SIR EDWARD CARSON

The noble Lord has no right to say that.

LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICE

said that the Bill, while setting up elaborate machinery for the establishment of a compensation fund, put in possession of the Court a power which, if it chose to exercise it, would absolutely nullify the measure. In any case, until the compensation fund grew, they would have the absurd state of things that in one county—a rich one—the Act would be in operation and in the next county—a poor one—it would be a dead letter.

MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR (Liverpool, East Toxteth)

said the point was that there was a possibility under Clause 3, that quarter sessions might not put into operation the levy for the purposes of compensation, and if they declined to do that they would have no fund available for compensation for the refusal to renew redundant licences. But that difficulty might be met by making it incumbent on quarter sessions to raise a compensation fund. When that was done it would still be open to quarter sessions to refuse to confirm the decision of the justices in regard to any particular licence. The position of the justices would not be altered. At present their decisions were subject to appeal. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman as to the vice from a temperance point of view of this particular clause. But they had debated it over and over again. The Government, by restricting the grounds upon which magistrates might refuse to renew licences to three—each of which he gathered from the Solicitor-General must be sufficient in itself as a ground of refusal—were most effectually crippling the powers of the magistrates with regard to the exercise of their magisterial discretion. It was impossible to accede to these compensation proposals without modifying in some way the absolute discretion of the magistrates, but he thought the difficulty might be met in the way suggested by the hon. Member for Carnarvon— I by giving the magistrates power to make by-laws subject to an appeal to the Secretary of State. By that method the trade would be protected against the eccentricities of "cranky" Benches, to which the Prime Minister recently referred. The discussion, however, was being carried on under the shadow of the guillotine, that most perfect instrument of Parliamentary despotism, of which neither political Party could claim an absolute majority. That being so, it was necessary to make the most of the time that remained, and not go over the same ground two or three times. He therefore hoped the Amendment would be withdrawn.

COLONEL PILKINGTON (Lancashire, Newton)

was understood to urge that the

word "shall" should be inserted when Clause 3 came to be discussed. Quarter sessions would no doubt do their duty but he thought it advisable that the raising of the compensation fund should be made compulsory.

SIR ROBERT REID,

in order to save time, asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Leave refused,.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 176; Noes, 255. (Division List, No. 200.)

AYES.
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Emmott, Alfred	Lewis, John Herbert
Allen, Charles P.	Esmonde, Sir Thomas	Lloyd-George, David
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Evans, Sir Francis H.(Maidstone	Lough, Thomas
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry	Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)	Lundon, W.
Atherley-Jones, L.	Farquharson, Dr. Robert	Lyell, Charles Henry
Barlow, John Emmott	Fenwick, Charles	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)	MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond	MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Bell, Richard	Flynn, James Chritsopher	M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)
Benn, John Williams	Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	M'Crae, George
Black, Alexander William	Fuller, J. M. F.	M'Kenna, Reginald
Blake, Edward	Furness, Sir Christopher	Mansfield, Horace Rendall
Boland, John	Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John	Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe
Brigg, John	Goddard, Daniel Ford	Markham, Arthur Basil
Broadhurst, Henry	Grant, Corrie	Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)	Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	Newnes, Sir George
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale	Nussey, Thomas Willans
Burt, Thomas	Harcourt, Rt Hn Sir W (Monm'th	O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Harwood, George	O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Caldwell, James	Hayden, John Patrick	O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N
Cameron, Robert	Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.	Parrott, William
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.	Partington, Oswald
Channing, Francis Alston	Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Paulton, James Mellor
Churchill, Winston Spencer	Higham, John Sharpe	Philipps, John Wynford
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.	Power, Patrick Joseph
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)	Hope, John Deans (Fife, West	Price, Robert John
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)	Horniman, Frederick John	Rea, Russell
Cremer, William Randal	Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk	Reckitt, Harold James
Crombie, John William	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Reddy, M.
Dalziel, James Henry	Jacoby, James Alfred	Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Johnson, John (Gateshead)	Rickett, J. Compton
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan	Joicey, Sir James	Rigg, Richard
Delany, William	Jordan, Jeremiah	Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Devlin, CharlesRamsay (Galw'y	Joyce, Michael	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Kilbride, Denis	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Dobbie, Joseph	Kitson, Sir James	Robson, William Snowdon
Donelan, Captain A.	Lambert, George	Roche, John
Doogan, P. C.	Langley, Batty	Rose, Charles Day
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)	Runciman, Walter
Duncan, J. Hastings	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)	Schwann, Charles E.
Dunn, Sir William	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Seely, Maj. J.E.B.(Isle of Wight
Edwards, Frank	Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington	Shackleton, David James
Elibank, Master of	Leigh, Sir Joseph	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Ellice, Capt EC (S Andrw'sBghs	Leng, Sir John	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)	Levy, Maurice	Sheehy, David
Shipman, Dr. John G.	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)	Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Slack, John Bamford	Tillet, Louis John	Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)
Sloan, Thomas Henry	Tomkinson, James	Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk, Mid.
Soames, Arthur Wellesley	Trevelyan, Charles Philips	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Stanhope, Hon. Philip James	Ure, Alexander	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Stevenson, Francis S.	Wallace, Robert	Wood, James
Strachey, Sir Edward	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)	Woodhouse, Sir J.T (Hudd'r sfi'd
Sullivan, Donal	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)	Yoxall, James Henry
Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)	Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney
Tennant, Harold John	White, George (Norfolk)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)	White, Luke (York, E.R.)	Ellis Griffith and Mr. T. W.
Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)	Russell.
NOES.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Denny, Colonel	Hope, J.F. (Sheffield Brightside
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Dickinson, Robert Edmond	Horner, Frederick William
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Dickson, Charles Scott	Hoult, Joseph
Arrol, Sir William	Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Houston, Robert Paterson
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-	Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)
Aubrey-Fletcher. Rt. Hon. Sir H	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil
Austin, Sir John	Dixon Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon	Hudson, George Bickersteth
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.	Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Doughty, George	Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers	Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.
Baird, John George Alexander	Doxford, Sir William Theodore	Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh
Balcarres, Lord	Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop
Baldwin, Alfred	Dyke, Rt Hon. Sir William Hart	Kerr, John
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r	Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton	Kimber, Henry
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Doulgas	Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)	Lawson, JohnGrant (Yorks NR.
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)	Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manc'r	Lee, Arthur H.(Hants. Fareham.
Bartley, Sir George C. T.	Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Fisher, William Hayes	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Bignold, Arthur	Fison, Frederick William	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham
Bill, Charles	FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon	Lowe, Francis William
Bond, Edward	Flannery, Sir Fortescue	Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith	Flower, Sir Ernest	Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Bowles, Lt.-Col. H.F (Middlesex	Forster, Henry William	Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn	Foster,Philip S.(Warwick, S.W.	Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Galloway, William Johnson	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Brotherton, Edward Allen	Gardner, Ernest	Macdona, John Cumming
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Garfit, William	MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A.(Glasgow	Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.	Maconochie, A. W.
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Gordon. Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn	M'Fadden, Edward
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire	Gordon, Maj Evans (T'r H'mlets	M'Iver, SirLewis (Edinburgh, W.
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Gore, Hon S. F.Ormsby-(Linc)	M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A. (Worc.	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon	M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Majendie, James A. H.
Chapman, Edward	Graham, Henry Robert	Manners, Lord Cecil
Clive, Captain Percy A.	Greene, Henry D.(Shrews bury)	Martin, Richard Biddulph
Coates, Edward Feetham	Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs	Massey-Main waring, Hn. W. F.
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Grenfell, William Henry	Maxwell. Rt Hn Sir H.E (Wigt'n
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Gretton, John	Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Greville, Hon. Ronald	Melville, Beresford Valentine
Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C.R.	Groves, James Grimble	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole	Gunter, Sir Robert	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.	Mil vain, Thomas
Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim,S.	Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry	Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Crean, Eugene	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Cripps, Charles Alfred	Hare. Thomas Leigh	Moore, William
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th)	Morgan, David J (Walthamstow
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)	Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich)	Morpeth, Viscount
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile	Heath, James (Staffords. N.W.)	Morrell, George Herbert
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Heaton, John Henniker	Morrison, James Archibald
Dalkeith, Earl of	Helder, Augustus	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Hoare, Sir Samuel	Mount, William Arthur
Davenport, W. Bromley	Hobhouse, Rt Hn H.(Somers't, E	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham	Hogg, Lindsay	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Myers, William Henry	Robinson, Brooke	Tuff, Charles
Newdegate, Francis A. N.	Rolleston, Sir John F. L.	Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.)	Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye	Valentia, Viscount
Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert	Vincent, Col. Sir CEH(Sheffield
O' Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid	Round, Rt. Hon. James	Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)	Rutherford, John (Lancashire)	Walker, Col. William Hall
O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)	Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)	Warde, Colonel C. E.
O'Dowd, John	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford	Webb, Colonel William George
Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)	Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander	Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E.(Taunton
Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley	Samuel, Sir Harry S (Limehouse	Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.
Pemberton, John S. G.	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert	Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Percy, Earl	Scott, Sir S. (Mary le bone, W.)	Whiteley, H. (Ashton und Lyne
Pierpoint, Robert	Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)	Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Pilkington, Colonel Richard	Sharpe, William Edward T.	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Piatt-Higgins, Frederick	Shaw-Stewart, Sir H.(Renfrew)	Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
Plummer, Walter R.	Sheehan, Daniel Daniel	Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Simeon, Sir Barrington	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Pretyman, Ernest George	Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside	Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward	Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Purvis, Robert	Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)	Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Pym, C. Guy	Stewart, Sir Mark J M'Taggart	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Rankin, Sir James	Stock, James Henry	Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Ratcliff, R. F.	Stone, Sir Benjamin	Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Reid, James (Greenock)	Stroyan, John	Young, Samuel
Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)	Younger, William
Renwick, George	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Richards, Henry Charles	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green	Thorburn, Sir Walter	Alexander Acland-Hood and
Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson	Tollemache, Henry James	Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)	Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)	Tritton, Charles Ernest

MR. MCKENNA (Monmouthshire, N.)

moved to leave out of lines 9, and 10, after the word "licence," the words "shall be vested in quarter sessions instead of the justices of the licensing district." The effect of this Amendment would be to leave the control of the licences in the hands of the justices as at present. In every case the justices had local knowledge of the district over which they exercised jurisdiction, and their work on the whole had been satisfactory. There had been no recommendation in either of the Reports of the Royal Commission in favour of transferring the work of the justices to quarter sessions. What was proposed in the Bill was to remove the control from an administrative body and hand it over to the quarter sessions, who, according to the wording of the Act, were to act as a legal tribunal. If this proposal were adopted the real control over licences would be very much diminished, and all the elements of discretion would disappear. It was not necessary for him to quote the cases upon the authority of which it was established that quarter sessions now acted as a Court of Appeal. The justices were not a Court at all, and it was a very grave question of principle whether the control of licensing should be handed over from an administrative body to a Court of Law. There was an Amendment further down on the Paper which provided that quarter sessions should act as an administrative body, but it did not appear to be absolutely necessary that the Court of quarter sessions should be substituted for the licensing justices at all. He was aware that, inasmuch as the area of subscription to the compensation fund was considered to be at least of a size commensurate with the quarter sessions jurisdiction, it was thought, therefore, that the Court of quarter sessions should be the controlling authority and not the licensing justices, whose area of subscription would be very much smaller. That difficulty could very easily be met. The Court of quarter sessions might easily allot the amount of money to be used as compensation within the area of the particular justices' brewster sessions, and it was not necessary to transfer the whole of the licensing powers from the justices to quarter sessions. If quarter sessions had power of limiting the amount of compensation in any particular area it would be perfectly possible to leave the actual control of each licence to the licensing justices. He admitted that quarter sessions must be introduced if they were to have the area of quarter sessions as the area of subscription for the compensation fund. No doubt in certain cases the area over which the licensing justices had jurisdiction would be too small to provide adequate funds, but it was quite possible for the quarter sessions to determine what the proper amount was for each area of the licensing justices and allot that sum, and then the licensing justices should have jurisdiction in determining whether a licence should be discontinued or not. The proposal of the Government was to hand over the control of the licences from men who were thoroughly acquainted with the district to a body of gentlemen sitting at quarter sessions who were not, who could not know what were the particular requirements in the remote parts of the county, would be acting without the necessary local knowledge, and would be certain to discharge their duties less efficiently than would be done by the local justices. If the Government could not accept this Amendment in its present form, they might at least introduce words in order to leave unchecked the present jurisdiction of the licensing justices in their own area. If that were done, the Government would remove one of the most serious objections to the Bill, namely, that the justices who had hitherto done their work extremely well should not have withdrawn from them work which they had every reason to believe they would be able to continue to do thoroughly well. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, to leave out from the words last inserted to the word 'shall' in line 10."—(Mr. McKenna.)

Question proposed, "That the word' shall' stand part of the clause."

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS, Kent, St. Augustine's)

said the hon. Member desired to leave the decision in regard to the taking away of licences in the hands of the local justices. He had already anticipated the objection of the Government, which was that the authority which dealt with the compensation fund should be the authority to deal with the licences to be refused. The hon. Member urged that a certain amount of money should be allotted to each brewster sessions' area to compensate licence-holders in cases where licences were refused on the ground of public policy. He submitted that that course would not be at all reasonable or desirable. It would not work in practice. There would be some brewster sessions' areas where no, or a very small number of, reductions would be made; there would be others where the number would be considerable. The result would be very unequal distribution of the benefits of the Bill. Therefore, he thought it would be far better that the trust should be vested in quarter sessions, and that they should be the authority. He believed there would be a much more even distribution in that way of the reduction of licences all over the county.

LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICE

said that, apart from the objections which had been so forcibly urged by his hon. friend, quarter sessions were a most unfortunate body to commit this jurisdiction to, because, since 1888, quarter sessions had not been an administrative body at all. Although technically, as had been pointed out, this was a judicial duty, still the matter was an administrative one. He asked the Home Secretary what staff quarter sessions had at the present moment in order to carry out these duties. Since 1888 their staff had consisted of the clerk of the peace and perhaps an officer to maintain order in Court when quarter sessions were sitting. Therefore, one objection, in addition to those already stated by the mover of the Amendment, he had to the proposal in the Bill was that quarter sessions would be compelled to take up administrative duties and appoint an administrative staff. That was a new venture and one which he ventured to think was most objectionable.

MR. BRIGG (Yorkshire, W.R., Keighley)

said the machinery of quarter sessions had entirely gone out of use for collecting and distributing money in the way proposed in the Bill. The West Riding Sessions, with which he was most intimately associated, had passed a resolution to the effect that they did not see that they could possibly make use of the machinery now provided for this purpose and suggested that the county council was the proper body to be called upon to collect the money, while they themselves would deal, under the Bill, with the money so gathered. In order to perform the duties now to be placed upon them, it would be necessary to appoint a number of officials. He had an Amendment on the Paper that these duties should be carried out by the joint committee. He was sure that the quarter sessions could not deal with the work proposed to be committed to them with the staff they now had.

MR. CRIPPS (Lancashire, Stretford)

asked, on a point of order, if it would be open to the Committee on subsequent Amendments to discuss whether quarter sessions, or some other body, were to be the authority.

THE CHAIRMAN

The point raised by this Amendment is that the authority is to remain as it is now. If the House does not think so, it is still open to the House to suggest any other authority —the standing joint committee, a committee of quarter sessions, or quarter sessions themselves. This will not affect the further Amendments.

MR. CRIPPS

said the present body was peculiarly unsuitable to be the authority on account of the area in which they acted being so small. That had been the great difficulty in carrying out any effective scheme of licensing reform. They could not carry out any effective scheme in a small area. In the county with which he was associated they did try to-carry out a scheme of temperance reform, and they could have done it over the county at large, but they found they could not do it by dealing only with district areas. In order to carry out this Bill effectively, it was necessary to have a county scheme so that the whole county might be properly dealt with. He thought the Bill did not give sufficient power to> the county authority. They ought to give the county authority, as against the smaller authority, power to do something definite in order to carry out a scheme which would do the best for temperance reform. It was important to have suitable administrative areas in which the magistrates might effectively carry out temperance reform.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 250; Noes, 182. (Division List No. 201.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Burdett-Coutts, W.	Dickson, Charles Scott,
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Butcher, John George	Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.
Aird, Sir John	Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A (Glasgow	Digby, John K. D. Wingfield
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire	Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon
Arrol, Sir William	Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Doogan, P. C.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)	Doughty, George
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.	Chamberlain, Rt Hn. JA (Worc.	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers
Austin, Sir John	Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton	Doxford, Sir William Theodore
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry	Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Chapman, Edward	Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Charrington, Spencer	Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton
Baird, John George Alexander	Clive, Captain Percy A.	Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W)
Balcarres, Lord	Coates, Edward Feetham	Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r
Baldwin, Alfred	Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r	Coghill, Douglas Harry	Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W(Leeds	Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C. R.	Fisher, William Hayes
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)	Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole	Fison, Frederick William
Bartley, Sir George C. T.	Cox, Irwin Edward Bain bridge	FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim, S.	Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Crean, Eugene	Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Bignold, Arthur	Cripps, Charles Alfred	Flower, Sir Ernest
Bill, Charles	Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)	Forster, Henry William
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile	Foster. Philip S.(Warwick, S.W.
Bond, Edward	Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Galloway, William Johnson
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith	Dalkeith, Earl of	Gardner, Ernest
Bowles, Lt.-Col. HF (Middlesex	Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Garfit, William
Bowles, T. Gibbon (King's Lynn	Davenport, William Bromley	Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham	Gordon, Hn. J.E.(Elgin & Nairn
Brotherton, Edward Allen	Dickinson, Robert Edmond	Gordon, Maj Evans(T'r H'mlets
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon	M'Fadden, Edward	Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Goulding, Edward Alfred	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (EdinburghW	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Graham, Henry Robert	M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)	Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)	M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)	Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)	Majendie, James A. H.	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Grenfell, William Henry	Manners, Lord Cecil	Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Gretton, John	Martin, Richard Biddulph	Samuel, Sir Harry S.(Limehouse
Greville, Hon. Ronald	Massey-Mainwaring, Hn W. F.	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Groves, James Grimble	Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H.E. (Wigt'n	Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Gunter, Sir Robert	Maxwell, W.J.H (Dumfriesshire	Sharpe, William Edward T.
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.	Melville, Beresford Valentine	Shaw-Stewart, Sir H (Renfrew)
Hamilton, Marq of(L'nd'nderry	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Hardy, Laurence (Kent Ashford	Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Hare, Thomas Leigh	Milvain, Thomas	Smith, H.C(North'mb, Tyneside
Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th)	Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)	Spear, John Ward
Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich)	Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)	Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset)
Hay, Hon. Claude George	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy	Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.
Heath, James (Staffords. N.W.	Moore, William	Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Heaton, John Henniker	Moran, David J (Walthamstow	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Helder, Augustus	Morpeth, Viscount	Stock, James Henry
Hickman, Sir Alfred	Morrell, George Herbert	Stone, Sir Benjamin
Hoare, Sir Samuel	Morrison, James Archibald	Stroyan, John
Hobhouse, Rt Hn H(Somers't, E	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J G (Oxf'd Univ.
Hogg, Lindsay	Mount, William Arthur	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)	Thorburn, Sir Walter
Horner, Frederick William	Myers, William Henry	Tollemache, Henry James
Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Newdegate, Francis A. N.	Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Hoult, Joseph	Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.)	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Houston, Robert Paterson	Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)	Tuff, Charles
Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)	Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil	O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)	Valentia, Viscount
Hudson, George Bickersteth	Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)	Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H (Sheffield
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse	Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley	Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred	Pemberton, John S. G.	Walker, Col. William Hall
Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.	Percy, Earl	Warde, Colonel C. E.
Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh	Pierpoint, Robert	Webb, Colonel William George
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop	Pilkington, Colonel Richard	Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton)
Kerr, John	Platt-Higgins, Frederick	Welby, Sir Charles G E.(Notts.)
Kimber, Henry	Plummer, Walter R.	Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Whiteley, H.(Ashton-und. Lyne
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R.	Pretyman, Ernest George	Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Lee, Arthur H.(Hants.Fareham	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward	Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage	Purvis, Robert	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Llewellyn, Evan Henry	Pym, C. Guy	Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Rankin, Sir James	Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)
Long, Col Charles W. (Evesham	Ratcliff, R. F.	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S	Reid, James (Greenock)	Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Lonsdale, John Brownlee	Remnant, James Farquharson	Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Lowe, Francis William	Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)	Renwick, George	Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Richards, Henry Charles	Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)	Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green	Young, Samuel
Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth	Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson	Younger, William
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Macdona, John Cumming	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir
MacIver, David (Liverpool)	Robinson, Brooke	Alexander Acland-Hood
Maconochie, A. W.	Rolleston, Sir John F. L.	and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)	Black, Alexander William	Cameron, Robert
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Blake, Edward	Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.
Allen, Charles P.	Boland, John	Channing, Francis Allston
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Brigg, John	Churchill, Winston Spencer
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry	Broadhurst, Henry	Condon, Thomas Joseph
Atherley-Jones, L.	Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)	Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)
Barlow, John Emmott	Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Bryce, Rt. Hon. James	Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Cremer, William Randal
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Burt, Thomas	Crombie, John William
Bell, Richard	Buxton, Sydney Charles	Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)
Benn, John Williams	Caldwell, James	Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan	Kilbride, Denis	Roche, John
Delany, William	Langley, Batty	Rose, Charles Day
Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galway	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)	Runciman, Walter
Dilke, Rt. Hon, Sir Charles	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Russell, T. W.
Dobbie, Joseph	Leese, Sir Joseph F.( Accrington	Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel
Donelan, Captain A.	Leigh, Sir Joseph	Schwann, Charles E.
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark	Leng, Sir John	Seely, Maj. JEB (Isle of Wight
Duncan, J. Hastings	Levy, Maurice	Shackleton, David James
Dunn, Sir William	Lewis, John Herbert	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Edwards, Frank	Lloyd-George, David	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Elibank, Master of	Lough, Thomas	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Ellice, Capt. EC (S. Andra's Bghs	Lundon, W.	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Lyell, Charles Henry	Slack, John Bamford
Ellis, John Edward (Notts)	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Sloan, Thomas Henry
Emmott, Alfred	MacNeill, John Gordon Swift	Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas	MacVeagh, Jeremiah	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone	M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)	Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)	M'Crae, George	Stevenson, Francis S.
Farquharson, Dr. Robert	Mansfield, Horace Rendall	Strachey, Sir Edward
Fenwick, Charles	Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe	Sullivan, Donal
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)	Markham, Arthur Basil	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond	Mitchell, Edw.(Fermanagh, N.)	Tennant, Harold John
Fuller, J. M. F.	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen	Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Furness, Sir Christopher	Moulton, John Fletcher	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.	Murphy, John	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Newnes, Sir George	Thomas, J. A (Glamorgan, Gower
Grant, Corrie	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Tomkinson, James
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)	Nussey, Thomas Willans	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Griffith, Ellis J.	O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid	Ure, Alexander
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.	Wallace, Robert
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)	Walton, John Lawson (Leeds S.)
Hain, Edward	O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale	O'Malley, William	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Harcourt, Rt Hn Sir W (Monm'th	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.	Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Harwood, George	Parrott, William	White, George (Norfolk)
Hayden, John Patrick	Partington, Oswald	White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.	Paulton, James Mellor	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.	Philipps, John Wynford	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Power, Patrick Joseph	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Higham, John Sharpe	Price, Robert John	Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)
Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)	Rea, Russell	Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)
Hope, John Deans (Fife, West	Reckitt, Harold James	Wilson, Henry J. (York. W.R.)
Horniman, Frederick John	Reddy, M.	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk	Reid. Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries	Wood, James
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Rickett, J. Compton	Woodhouse, Sir J.T. (Huddersf'd
Jacoby, James Alfred	Rigg, Richard	Yoxall, James Henry
Johnson, John (Gateshead)	Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Joicey, Sir James	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Jordan, Jeremiah	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)	M'Kenna and Mr. Lambert.
Joyce, Michael	Robson, William Snowdon

MR. ELLIS GRIFFITH (Anglesey)

said he wished to move an Amendment which concerned the county areas, and which he hoped would be taken into consideration by the Solicitor-General and the Home Secretary. He was not going to traverse the ground already gone over as to the disqualifications of the quarter sessions, but he submitted that the alternative he suggested was better than the one contained in the Bill as it now stood. As the Committee were aware, the joint police committee was elected—half by the quarter sessions, and half by the county council. It was a pretty well-known fact that in England and Wales the very best magistrates were selected to sit on the joint police committee; and he believed that most of the county council members of that committee were themselves magistrates. The joint police committee had the control of the police, and he submitted that it would be a most convenient thing that that committee should have control of the licences throughout the county areas. He had reason to believe that his Amendment commended itself to the whole body of moderate men on both sides of the House. The Amendment, he thought, would do something to remove the objection to this part of the Bill which transferred the licensing authority from the local justices to the quarter session.s The quarter sessions were often a very large body which had necessarily no local knowledge of many parts of the county, and it was admitted that the justices were chosen very much at haphazard by the Lord Chancellor. He was told that members of quarter sessions had been whipped up often on both sides when the granting or refusal of a particular licence was coming up for decision. All these difficulties would be removed by his Amendment. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, after the word 'shall' to insert the words 'in county areas.'"—(Mr. Ellis Griffith.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

Sir EDWARD CARSON

said that there were many reasons for retaining the jurisdiction proposed in the Bill. They had framed the Bill so as to interfere as little as possible with the existing procedure. Every alteration was solely due to the necessity of having a larger compensation area. In cases where, for non-requirement or for other reasons, the brewster sessions came to the conclusion that a licence ought to be taken away, they were, under the Bill, to make an order referring the question to the quarter sessions with their report; whereas, under the old system the licence-holder had a direct appeal to quarter sessions. That was the only difference. The reason why the matter had not been allowed to remain exactly as it was, was that the area of compensation furnished by the ordinary licensing district of brewster sessions would be too small. That being so, was it not better to keep the quarter sessions and the form of procedure as nearly as possible as it was, than to set

up a new tribunal which would have jurisdiction only in cases where compensation was concerned. In other words, they would have in every county, the quarter sessions seized of one part of this appellant jurisdiction, and the standing committee seized of another part of it. There was another question raised by this proposal, namely, the question of admitting a representative element in relation to the administration of the compensation fund. If the fund were a public fund subscribed out of the rates, or was in any way a county charge, it might be argued that there ought to be representation; but, of course, this fund was no such thing. It was a charge on one particular trade to enable them to insure against their licences being refused. He had always understood that the objection to this particular clause was that it interfered with the justices; but justices would be interfered with more by setting up a standing joint committee than by retaining quarter sessions. The Amendment, as far as he understood it, would also change what was proposed as regarded county boroughs, because it would take away from the whole body of the justices there the right to administer the fund in their own districts. That would be a great pity. In giving that power to justices in county boroughs he thought the Government were setting up the proper tribunal for administering this fund; and the reason why county boroughs were treated in this way was because they provided a sufficient compensation area. He was, therefore, unable to accept the Amendment.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 178; Noes, 265. (Division List No. 202).

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)	Benn, John Williams	Burt, Thomas
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Black, Alexander William	Buxton, Sydney Charles
Allen, Charles P.	Blake, Edward	Caldwell, James
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Boland, John	Cameron, Robert
Asquith. Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry	Brigg, John	Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.
Aherley-Jones, L.	Broadhurst, Henry	Cawley, Frederick
Barlow, John Emmott	Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)	Channing, Francis Allston
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Condon, Thomas Joseph
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Bryce, Rt. Hon. James	Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)
Bell, Richard
Cremer, William Randal	Joyce, Michael	Rose, Charles Day
Crombie, John William	Lambert, George	Runciman, Walter
Crooks, William	Langley, Batty	Russell, T. W.
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)	Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Layland-Barrett, Francis	Schwann, Charles E.
Davies,M. Vaughan (Cardigan	Leese,Sir Joseph F(Accrington	Seely,Maj. JEB (Isle of Wight)
Delany, William	Leigh, Sir Joseph	Shackleton, David Jame
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)	Leng, Sir John	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Levy, Maurice	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Dobbie, Joseph	Lewis, John Herbert	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	Lloyd-George, David	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Duncan, J. Hastings	Lough, Thomas	Slack, John Bamford
Dunn, Sir William	Lundon, W.	Sloan, Thomas Henry
Edwards, Frank	Lyell, Charles Henry	Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Elibank, Master of	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Ellice, CaptEC(S Andrw's Bghs	MacNeill, John Gordon Swift	Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)	MacVeagh, Jeremiah	Stevenson, Francis S.
Emmott, Alfred	M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)	Strachey, Sir Edward
Esmonde, Sir Thomas	M'Crae, George	Sullivan, Donal
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone	M'Kenna, Reginald	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)	Mansfield, Horace Rendall	Tennant, Harold John
Fenwick, Charles	Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe	Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)	Markham, Arthur Basil	Thomas,Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond	Mitchell,Edw.(Fermanagh, N.)	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Flavin, Michael Joseph	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen(	Thomas,JA (Glamorgan Gower
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)	Morpeth, Viscount	Tomkinson, James
Fuller, J. M. F.	Moulton, John Fletcher	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Furness, Sir Christopher	Newnes, Sir George	Ure, Alexander
Gladstone,Rt Hn. Herbert J.	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Wallace, Robert
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Nussey, Thomas Willans	Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Grant, Corrie	O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Grey,Rt, Hn. Sir E. (Berwick	O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)	Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	O'Kelly,James (Roscommon, N	Wason,John Cathcart (Orkney)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	O'Malley, William	White, George (Norfolk)
Hain, Edward	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.	White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale	Parrott, William	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Harcourt, RtHnSir W (Monm'th	Partington, Oswald	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Harwood, George	Paulton, James Mellor	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.	Philipps, John Wynford	Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)
Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.	Price, Robert John	Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk Mid.)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Rea, Russell	Wilson, Henry J. (York. W.R.)
Higham, John Sharpe	Reckitt, Harold James	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Hobhouse, C.E.H. (Bristol, E.)	Reddy, M.	Wood, James
Hobhouse,RtHnH. (Somers't,E	Reid,Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries	Woodhouse, SirJT (Huddersf'd
Horniman, Frederick John	Rickett, J. Compton	Yoxall, James Henry
Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.	Rigg, Richard
Jacoby, James Alfred	Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Johnson, John (Gateshead)	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Joicey, Sir James	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)	Ellis Griffith and Mr.
Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea	Robson, William Snowdon	Dalziel.
Jordan Jeremiah	Roche, John
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds	Butcher, John George
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Campbell,Rt.Hn.JA (Gasgow)
Aird, Sir John	Barry,Sir Francis T. (Windsor)	Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin	Cautley, Henry Strother
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire
Arrol, Sir William	Bignold, Arthur	Cayzer, Sir Charles William
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Bill, Charles	Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt. Hn.SirH.	Blundell, Colonel Henry	Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)
Austin, Sir John	Bond, Edward	Chamberlain, RtHn J.A. (Worc.
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Boscawen, Arthur Griffith	Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Bousfield, William Robert	Chapman, Edward
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Bowles,Lt.-Col.H.F (Middlesex	Charrington, Spencer
		Churchill, Winston Spencer
Baird, John George Alexander	Bowles,T.Gibson (King'sLynn	Clive, Captain Percy A.
Balcarres, Lord	Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Coates, Edward Feetham
Baldwin, Alfred	Brotherton, Edward Allen	Cochrane,Hon. Thos. H. A. E
Balfour,Rt. Hn. A. J.(Manch'r	Burdett-Coutts, W.	Coddington, Sir William

Coghill, Douglas Harry	Horner, Frederick William	Purvis, Robert
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Pym, C. Guy
Colomb, Rt. Hn. Sir John C. R.	Hoult, Joseph	Rankin, Sir James
Colston, Chas, Edw. H. Athole	Houston, Robert Paterson	Ratcliff, R. F.
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham	Reid, James (Greenock)
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S	Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil	Remnant, James Farquharson
Crean, Eugene	Hudson, George Bickersteth	Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Cripps, Charles Alfred	Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred	Renwick, George
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)	Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H.	Richards, Henry Charles
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile	Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)	Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Dalkeith, Earl of	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop	Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Kerr, John	Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Davenport, William Bromley	Kimber, Henry	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham	King, Sir Henry Seymour	Robinson, Brooke
Denny, Colonel	Laurie, Lieut.-General	Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Dickinson, Robert Edmond	Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow'	Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Dickson, Charles Scott	Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N.R.	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham	Round, Rt. Hon. James
Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.	Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage	Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Llewellyn, Evan Henry	Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Doogan, P. C.	Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham	Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Doughty, George	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol,S)	Samuel, Sir Harry S.(Limehouse
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers	Lonsdale, John Brownlee	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Doxford, Sir William Theodore	Lowe, Francis William	Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Duke, Henry Edward	Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)	Sharpe, William Edward T.
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin	Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Shaw-Stewart, Sir H.(Renfrew)
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart	Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)	Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton	Lucas Reginald J. (Portsmouth)	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Smith HC. (North'mb. Tyneside
Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)	Macdona, John dimming	Spear, John Ward
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r	MacIver, David (Liverpool)	Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst	Maconochie, A. W.	Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)
Pinch, Rt. Hon. George H.	M'Fadden, Edward	Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Fisher, William Hayes	M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)	Stock, James Henry
Fison, Frederick William	M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)	Stone, Sir Benjamin
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose	Manners, Lord Cecil	Stroyan, John
Fitzroy,Hn. Edward Algernon	Martin, Richard Biddulph	Talbot Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Flannery, Sir Fortescue	Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Flower, Sir Ernest	Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H.E. (Wigt'n	Thorburn, Sir Walter
Forster, Henry William	Maxwell, W. T.H (Dumfriesshire	Tollemache, Henry James
Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.	Melville, Beresford Valentine	Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Galloway, William Johnson	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Gardner, Ernest	Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Tuff, Charles
Garfit, William	Milvain, Thomas	Tuffnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.	Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)	Valentia, Viscount
Gordon, Hn. J E (Elgin & Nairn)	Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)	Vincent, Col. Sir C. E H (Sheffield
Gordon, Maj Evans (T'r H'mlets	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy	Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon	Moore, William
Goulding, Edward Alfred	Morgan David J. (Walthamstow	Walker, Col. William Hall
Graham, Henry Robert	Morrell, George Herbert	Warde, Colonel C. E.
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)	Morrison, James Archibald	Webb, Colonel William George
Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer	Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton
Grenfell, William Henry	Mount, William Arthur-	Welby, Sir Chas. G.E. (Notts.)
Greville, Hon. Ronald	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)	Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Groves, James Grimble	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)	Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne
Gunter, Sir Robert	Myers, William Henry	Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset
Hall, Edward Marshall	Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F	Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)	Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)	Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks.)
Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford	O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Hare, Thomas Leigh	O'Dowd, John	Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)	Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)	Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. Dulwich)	Peel Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Hay, Hon. Claude George	Pemberton, John S. G.	Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Heath, James (Staffords. N.W.	Percy, Earl	Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Heaton, John Henniker	Pierpoint, Robert	Young, Samuel
Helder, Augustus	Pilkington, Colonel Richard	Younger William
Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Hickman, Sir Alfred	Plummer, Walter R.
Hoare, Sir Samuel	Powell, Sir Francis Sharpe	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Hogg, Lindsay	Pretyman, Ernest George	Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward	and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes

MR. HERBERT ROBERTS (Denbighshire, W.)

said the object of the Amendment he now proposed to move was to secure that no change in the machinery with regard to licensing administration should take place except on the condition that quarter sessions decided to levy the annual charge referred to in Sub-section 1, Clause 3, of the Bill. The root principle of this Bill was to attempt to reduce licences throughout the country, but that, in the view of the Government, could not be adequately or justly done without payment of compensation. The Government had made it clear that there would have been no need for any change in regard to licensing jurisdiction had it not been necessary to have a compensation fund of this character for the benefit of those who lost their licences on the sole ground of non-requirement. The Government had more 'than once asserted that it was not their desire to interfere in any way with the jurisdiction of the local licensing justices, but that if it was absolutely necessary to set up a compensation fund then it was necessary for quarter sessions to decide the question of non-renewals on the ground of non-necessity. That being so, what possible ground could there be for any interference with the present powers of jurisdiction of the local justices unless quarter sessions decided to set up a compensation fund? It was admitted that there was an inconvenience with regard to the double jurisdiction and there were undoubtedly serious disadvantages connected with it. He urged this Amendment on the practical ground that above all things it was desirable that every kind of stimulus should be provided for uniformity of action throughout the country in regard to the setting up of this fund. It was perfectly plain that unless every quarter sessions decided to levy the fund the fund would be hopelessly inadequate to bring about any reduction of licences throughout the country. On these grounds he begged to move.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, after the word 'shall,' to insert the words ' in the event of quarter sessions deciding to impose in respect of all on-licences within their area the charges referred to in Section 3, Sub-section (1), of the Act.'"—(Mr. Herbert Roberts.)

Question proposed, "That those words, be there inserted."

SIR EDWARD CARSON

said with regard to this Amendment he had nothing to add to what he had already said on a previous Amendment of a similar character. He asked what reason was there to suppose that quarter sessions would refuse to carry out their duty when this Bill was passed, any more than they refused to carry it out now. The whole argument in favour of this Amendment appeared to be that they were to assume that quarter sessions, when this Bill was passed, would refuse to administer the law. Did not the hon. Member who moved the Amendment see that if quarter sessions did not set up a compensation fund what it involved? Quarter sessions would at some time have to say, "We will not do our duty in the renewal of licences." They could not segregate the two cases. Directly quarter sessions refused to set up a compensation fund they abrogated all their functions under the Bill. If the Amendment were passed it would be necessary to go further and abolish quarter sessions altogether, because they might decide to set up the fund, but charge the minimum instead of the maximum rates, and thus defeat the purpose of the fund. It they were wicked enough to do the one thing they were bad enough to do the-other. There was really no ground for treating quarter sessions in this way, they had always transacted their business properly, and there was no reason to suppose that they would adopt a different course in the future.

MR. SHACKLETON (Lancashire, Clitheroe)

pointed out that, inasmuch as the municipal authorities were losing their rights, there would be no reduction of licences whatever if the quarter sessions refused to act. It was only reasonable that this provision should be made compulsory. The local justices were most in touch with local opinion, but there was nothing in the Bill to give effect to the recommendation of both Reports of the Royal Commission that local opinion should be consulted. The Commission recommended that the licensing authority should be a combination of the justices and elected persons from the town council, but there was no provision of that kind in the Bill. As the powers of the borough justices were to be taken away, the county justices ought to be compelled to do something on the recommendation of the local magistrates. His experience as a borough magistrate had not been such as to satisfy him that the county justices would take the necessary steps without pressure. He hoped, therefore, the Government would not refuse the concession asked for by this Amendment.

MR. ASQUITH (Fifeshire, E.)

said the conditions under which the discussion was being carried on did not admit of anything like free or adequate debate, but the matter raised by the present Amendment was of so much urgency, and the grounds on which the hon. Member had rested his case were so strong, that he thought the Government might give it a little more consideration. The proposal of the Amendment was that the jurisdiction at present possessed by the licensing justices should be retained by them unless quarter sessions, to which that jurisdiction was by this Bill to be transferred, resolved to set up this fund. He entirely demurred to the suggestion of the Solicitor-General that the quarter sessions would be guilty of any neglect of duty if they refused to raise the fund. In some counties it was in the highest degree probable that quarter sessions would not think it worth while to do so. In consequence of the small-ness of the area involved the fund would be wholly inadequate to effect any substantial reduction of licences, and quarter sessions might very reasonably say that they would have nothing whatever to do with the matter. What would be the position then? The power of the licensing justices

would have been taken away, and in its place a nugatory power given to quarter sessions; therefore in those counties the whole thing would be hung up, and there would be no authority in a position to exercise a jurisdiction which everybody admitted to be necessary. A. more reasonable Amendment had not, m his opinion, been proposed in the whole course of the discussion.

SIR EDWARD CARSON

said the argument of the right hon. and learned Gentleman would be all very well if the local authorities had an absolute power to refuse licences, but they had no such power, as the last word already lay with quarter sessions. He regretted that the right hon. Gentleman should have said that quarter sessions would be able to ignore the Bill. But if any quarter sessions were in that frame of mind, if this Amendment were carried how many licences were they likely to do away with on the appeal of the local justices? The same matters would be operative with them, and would render the provision nugatory.

MR. DISRAELI (Cheshire, Altrincham)

did not believe the quarter sessions of a single English county would refuse to take this matter up and act. Quarter sessions throughout the country had long desired to do something in the way of the reduction of licences, but they had not possessed the power. They were now to have the power, and it was not likely that any body of English gentlemen would refuse to exercise it.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 176; Noes, 267. (Division List No. 203.)

AYES.
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Boland, John	Cameron, Robert
Allen, Charles P.	Brigg, John	Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Broadhurst, Henry	Cawley, Frederick
Atherley-Jones, L.	Brown, George M.(Edinburgh)	Channing, Francis Allston
Barlow, John Emmott	Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Condon, Thomas Joseph
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Bryce, Rt. Hon. James	Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)
Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B.	Burt, Thomas	Cremer, William Randal
Benn, John Williams	Buxton, Sydney Charles	Crombie, John William
Black, Alexander William	Caldwell, James	Crooks, William
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Jordan, Jeremiah	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Dalziel, James Henry	Joyce, Michael	Robson, William Snowdon
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Kitson, Sir James	Roche, John
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan		Rose, Charles Day
Delany, William	Lambert, George	Runciman, Walter
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Calway	Langley, Batty	Russell, T. W.
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall	Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Dobbie, Joseph	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Doogan, P. C.	Leese SirJoseph F.(Accrington	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	Leigh, Sir Joseph	Sheehy, David
Duncan, J. Hastings	Long, Sir John	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Dunn, Sir William	Levy, Maurice	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
	Lewis, John Herbert	Slack, John Bamford
Edwards, Frank	Lloyd-George, David	Sloan, Thomas Henry
Elibank, Master of	Lough, Thomas	Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Ellice, Capt EC (S. Andrw's Bghs	Lundon, W.	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)	Lyell, Charles Henry	Spear, John Ward
Emmott, Alfred	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Esmonde, Sir Thomas	MacNeill, John Gordon Swift	Stevenson, Francis S.
Evans, Sir Francis H.(Maidstone	MacVeagh, Jeremiah	Strachey, Sir Edward
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)	M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)	Sullivan, Donal
Fenwick, Charles	M'Crae, George	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)	M'Kenna, Reginald	Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond	Mansfield, Horace Rendall	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)	Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Markham, Arthur Basil	Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower
Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.	Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)	Tillet, Louis John
Fuller, J. M. F.	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)	Tomkinson, James
Furness, Sir Christopher	Moss, Samuel	Toulmin, George
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John	Moulton, John Fletcher	Trevelyan, Charles Philip
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Murphy John	Ure, Alexander
Grant, Corrie	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Wallace, Robert
Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E.( Berwick)	Nussey, Thomas Willans	Walton, JohnLawson (Leeds, S.)
Griffith, Ellis T.	O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Hain, Edward	O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N	Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale	O'Mulley, William	White, George (Norfolk)
Harcourt, Rt Hn Sir W (Monm'th	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.	White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Harwood, George	Parrott, William	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.	Partington, Oswald	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.	Paulton, James Mellor	Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.
Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Perks, Robert William	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Higham, John Sharpe	Philipps, John Wynford	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)	Price, Robert John	Wood, Tames
Horniman, Frederick John	Rea, Russell	Woodhouse Sir J.T (Hudd'rsfi'd
Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.	Reckitt, Harold James	Yoxall, James Henry
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Reddy, M.
Jacoby, James Alfred	Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Johnson, John (Gateshead)	Rickett, J. Compton	Mr. Herbert Roberts and
Joicey, Sir James	Rigg, Richard	Mr. Shackleton.
Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea	Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds	Burdett-Coutts, W.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Butcher, John George
Aird, Sir John	Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor)	Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A.(Glasgow
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Cautley, Henry Strother
Arrol, Sir William	Bignold, Arthur	Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Bill, Charles	Cayzer, Sir Charles William
Aubrey-Fletcher Rt. Hon. Sir H	Blundell, Colonel Henry	Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)
Austin, Sir John	Bond, Edward	Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A.(Worc.
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Bousfield, William Robert	Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Bowles, Lt. Col. H.F.(Middlesex	Chapman, Edward
Baird, John George Alexander		Charrington, Spencer
Balcarres, Lord	Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn	Churchill, Winston Spencer
Baldwin, Alfred	Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Clare, Octavius Leigh
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r	Brotherton, Edward Allen	Clive, Captain Percy A.
	Bull, William James	Coates, Edward Feetham

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Helder, Augustus	O'Brien, P. J.(Tipperary, N.)
Coddington, Sir William	Henderson, Sir A.(Stafford, W.)	Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Hickman, Sir Alfred	Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Hoare, Sir Samuel	Percy, Earl
Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C.R.	Hobhouse, Rt. Hn H(Somers't, E	Pierpoint, Robert
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole	Hogg, Lindsay	Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside	Plummer, Walter R.
Craig. Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)	Horner, Frederick William	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Crean, Eugene	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Pretyman, Ernest George
Cripps, Charles Alfred	Hoult, Joseph	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)	Houston, Robert Paterson	Purvis, Robert
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile	Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham	Pym, C. Guy
Dalkeith, Earl of	Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil	Rankin, Sir James
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Hudson, George Bickersteth	Ratcliff, R. F.
Davenport, W. Bromley-	Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred	Reid, James (Greenock)
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham	Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton	Remnant, James Farquharson
Dickinson, Robert Edmond	Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)	Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Dickson, Charles Scott	Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.	Renwick, George
Dimsdale, Rt.Hn. Sir Joseph C	Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T.(Denbigh)	Richards, Henry Charles
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.	Ridley, S. Forde (BethnalGreen
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon	Kerr, John	Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.	Kimber, Henry	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Doughty, George	King, Sir Henry Seymour	Robinson, Brooke
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Knowles, Sir Lees	Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Doxford, Sir William Theodore	Laurie, Lieut.-General	Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Duke, Henry Edward	Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R	Round, Rt. Hon. James
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart	Lee, Arthur H (Hants. Fareham	Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton	Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage	Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Faber, Edmund B.(Hants, W.)	Llewellyn, Evan Henry	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Fergusson Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	Long Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)	Samuel SirHarry S.(Limehouse
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Long Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Fisher, William Hayes	Lonsdale, John Brownlee	Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Fison, Frederick William	Lowe, Francis William	Seton-Karr, Sir Henry
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-	Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)	Snarpe, William Edward T.
Fitzroy, Hon. Ed ward Algernon	Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Shaw-Stewart, Sir H.(Renfrew)
Flannery, Sir Fortescue	Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth	Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Flavin, Michael Joseph	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Flower, Sir Ernest	Macdona, John dimming	Smith, HC(North'mb Tyneside
Forster, Henry William	Maconochie, A. W.	Stanley, Ed ward Jas. (Somerset)
Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S.W.	M'Fadden, Edward	Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs
Galloway, William Johnson	M"Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W	Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Gardner, Ernest	M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Garfit, William	Majendie, James A. H.	Stock, James Henry
Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.	Manners, Lord Cecil	Stone, Sir Benjamin
Gordon, Hn. J.E.(Elgin & Nairn)	Martin, Richard Biddulph	Stroyan, John
Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r H'mlets	Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon	Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir H.E(Wigt'n	Talbot Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim	Maxwell, W.J.H(Dumfriesshire	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Goulding, Edward Alfred	Melville, Beresford Valentine	Thorburn, Sir Walter
Graham, Henry Robert	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Tollemache, Henry James
Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)	Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Tomlinson. Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs)	Milvain, Thomas	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Grenfell, William Henry	Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)	Tuff, Charles
Gretton, John	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy	Valentia, Viscount
Greville, Hon. Ronald	Moore, William	Vincent, Col. Sir C. EH(Sheffield
Groves, James Grimble	Morgan David J.(Walthamstow	Walker, Col. William Hall
Gunter, Sir Robert	Morpeth, Viscount	Warde, Colonel C. E.
Hall, Edward Marshall	Morrell, George Herbert	Webb, Colonel William George
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.	Morrison, James Archibald	Welby, Lt.Col. C.E.(Taunton
Hambro, Charles Eric	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer	Welby, Sir Charles G.E. (Notts.
Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry	Mount, William Arthur	Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Hardy Laurence (Kent, Ahford)	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)	Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne
Hare, Thomas Leigh	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)	Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th	Myers, William Henry	Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Harris Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich)	Newdegate, Francis A. N.	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Hay, Hon. Claude George	Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.)	Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E.R.)
Heath, James(Staffords., N. W.)	Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)	Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks)
Heaton, John Henniker	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson	Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart	Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong	Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Wrightson, Sir Thomas	Young, Samuel	and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George	Younger, William

MR. J. H. LEWIS (Flint Boroughs)

said the object of his Amendment was to give quarter sessions the option of remaining outside the scope of the Act altogether, and that was a totally different question to the one which had just been decided. His proposal would enable quarter sessions, in cases where they considered it desirable, to wait in order that they might see how the Act operated in other counties. They all knew that at the commencement of an Act of this kind administrative mistakes were constantly made, and the various authorities gained by each other's experience. He thought it was desirable that there should be a certain amount of local option. Some countries were much more highly licensed than others, and some had not such a large proportion of licences. What they were doing by this Bill was to absolutely close every possible door by which any sort of different administration could be carried out as an experiment in different districts in the future. Surely the experience of their Colonies, and of Norway, Sweden, and the United States, supplied them with a sufficient number of precedents to work upon. They were by this measure making any sort of licensing reforms impossible except upon the lines suggested by this Bill. He particularly asked that in the Welsh counties they should have in the future some chance of settling this question in their own way, and on their own lines. If Courts of quarter sessions in Wales, knowing the feelings of the Welsh people, should decide that it would be better to defer putting the Act into operation in order to see whether some better method could be found, which would promote temperance reform, he suggested that some liberty should be given to those Courts to adopt that course. The fact that there was no time limit in the Bill made an Amendment of this kind all the more necessary. Had there been a time limit they might have looked forward to some change of a beneficial character not altogether upon the lines of this Bill. He urged that the Government should give some measure of local option to the counties in-order that some of the counties might keep outside the sphere of this Bill, and thus give Parliament an opportunity of perhaps settling the question in a different way in the future. For the reasons he had given he hoped the Government would see their way to accept the Amendment he had proposed.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, after the word 'shall,' to insert the words, 'when quarter sessions so determine.'"—(Mr. J. H. Lewis.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS

said the object of the hon. Member's Amendment was to wait to see how the Bill operated in neighbouring counties; and he also desired that there should be a general local option in regard to the Act altogether. The Government thought the Bill was for the general benefit of the public and he saw no reason why the principle laid down should not apply all round. On these grounds he could not agree to the Amendment.

MR. MUNRO FERGUSON (Leith Burghs)

said that after his experience on the Licensing Bench he was quite certain that justices would object to the alteration proposed in the Bill. It would be entirely against the public interest and there would be considerable feeling on the part of many licensing justices against putting the Bill in operation. They should have the option as the Amendment proposed to remain on their present footing and not adopt the Bill. The Home Secretary has stated that the Bill was one to reduce licences and that that was a good thing. He admitted that was a good thing, but it certainly was not a more important section of licensing reform than some others. There were half-a-dozen objects of even greater importance than the mere reduction of licences, and, keen as he was himself for restricting the excessive use of liquor, he was certain that this was not a Bill which should be put in operation by a Bench that had the power of effecting reforms in the liquor traffic in other ways. This was a vicious Bill and the local justices should have the power of not adopting it.

Mr. CHARLES HOBHOTJSE (Bristol, E.)

said it was only fair that the opinion of the local justices should receive some attention in regard to a Bill of this sort, which they had to administer. The spirit of local option which the Amendment proposed to introduce into the Bill already obtained in regard to the Education Act. It was a spirit which had been found on the whole to make Acts of Parliament work fairly. Whether this Bill was good or bad was outside the question now before the Committee. The magistrate who disapproved of the measure would always be loth to administer it. Yet as a matter of fact Licensing Benches would have, after all, to put the Act into operation. That being so, some power of discrimination in this matter should be left to the licensing justices. Quarter sessions were supposed to know the conditions of a whole county over which they administered justice, and on the whole it was a fair contention that, knowing those conditions, they would he in a better position than the House to apply the Bill. For this reason the elasticity provided for by the Amendment should be put into the Bill.

Mr. J. H. LEWIS

regretted that the Government could not see their way to make a concession on this point, and all the more so because some of the counties were so extremely large that quarter sessions might reasonably consider that they could not take over the powers of the local justices which were given to them by this Bill, and that they would prefer to see how the experiment worked in other parts of the country. In his own county it was variously estimated that it would take between eighty and 100 years to get the number of licences down to the same level as in the adjoining county of Merioneth. In the course of the debate it had been mentioned that the average cost of a licence would be £800. He believed that was the figure given officially in a pamphlet written on behalf of the trade. Quarter sessions might reasonably flay: "We will see whether some better means of reducing licences cannot be got than this, and in the meantime we will collect experience from all parts of the country." If the right hon. Gentleman would not accept the Amendment he would be bound to press it to a division.

MR. JOHNSON (Gateshead)

said he believed it was desirable that local justices should have the option, in connection with this Bill, of waiting to get some experience before adopting it. He regretted that the Government had not accepted the Amendment. It appeared to him that the Government were not only determined to make no concessions whatever, but that this Bill was to be put through by sheer force, and that the smallest attempts on the Opposition side of the House to minimise its drastic effects were to be absolutely ignored. He hoped that some concessions which would be likely to make the Bill workable would be granted. Surely the local justices were the best able to judge whether the Bill should be put in operation or not. But it appeared to him no discretion was to be given, even to the Courts of quarter sessions, and that they must adopt and carry out the Bill at all hazards.

Mr. WHITLEY

said his hon. friend was quite correct in appealing to the analogy of the Education Bill. The great mistake which was made in connection with the Education Bill, and which was having a disastrous effect all over the country at the present moment, was that the areas were too big for any single body to deal with. The Government had already acknowledged their mistake in that respect by adopting smaller areas under the Scotch Education Bill. In the Bill now before the Committee they proposed to have a body which would rest on the advice of officials. The Amendment proposed that power should be left to quarter sessions to divide their administrative areas into districts, and to delegate their duties in that way.

Mr. LAMBERT (Devonshire,) South Molton

said that, after all, they wanted to give local authorities some option as to what they should do, as they knew what they were fitted for. A protest was made in Devonshire against being saddled with the duties of the Education Act, and now the cost of administration had gone up enormously without any increased efficiency. Who was to pay for the increased staff consequent on the Licensing Bill? He was certain the ratepayers in his county would strongly object. The Government thought the county was a sort of divine area. A county could do no wrong, but anything less than a county area was hopeless. If a county was fitted to carry out the duties surely it was fitted to know whether it should carry them out or not. These were entirely novel proposals and he would ask the Government to give some elasticity to county bodies as to what they should put in force. Owing to the drastic proposals of the Government he did not know what this Bill really proposed to do. Supposing the county justices did not put the Bill in force, were there any compulsory powers provided to compel them to put it in force? He might be told that that

question would arise later on, but it might be wiped out by closure by compartments. The Amendment of his hon. friend was perfectly conciliatory, and if the Government were not proof against accepting any suggestion for the improvements of the Bill, which he was afraid they were, he hoped they would give a favourable ear to his hon. friend's proposal. If not, it would only be another case of the extravagant inefficiency caused by this scheme of the Government, which meant something like centralisation gone mad. If they were met with a blank refusal by the Government they could, of course, only support their opinion in the Division Lobby.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 116; Noes, 271. (Division List No. 204.)

AYES.
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John	Perks, Robert William
Allen, Charles P.	Goddard, Daniel Ford	Philipps, John Wynford
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry	Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)	Price, Robert John
Barlow, John Emmott	Griffith, Ellis J.	Reddy, M.
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Hain, Edward	Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.	Rigg, Richard
Benn, John Williams	Harcourt, Rt Hn Sir W (Monm'th	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Boland, John	Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.	Roche, John
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.	Russell, T. W.
Burt, Thomas	Henderson Arthur (Durham)	Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Higham, John Sharpe	Schwann, Charles E.
Caldwell, James	Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)	Shackleton, David James
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Cawley, Frederick	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Channing, Francis Allston	Jacoby, James Alfred	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)	Jordan, Jeremiah	Sloan, Thomas Henry
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)	Joyce, Michael	Soames. Arthur Wellesley
Cremer, William Randal	Kitson, Sir James	Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Lambert, George	Strachey, Sir Edward
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Langley, Batty	Sullivan, Donal
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)	Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.).
Delany, William	Leigh, Sir Joseph	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)
Devlin, Charles Ramsay (Galway	Levy, Maurice	Thomas J A (Glamorgan Gower)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Lundon, W.	Ure, Alexander
Dobbie, Joseph	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Wallace, Robert
Dunn, Sir William	MacNeill, John Gordon Swift	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Elibank, Master of	MacVeagh, Jeremiah	Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney
Emmott, Alfred	M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)	White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas	M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone	Mappin, Sit Frederick Thorpe	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth
Eve, Harry Trelawney	Markham, Arthur Basil	Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull, W.)
Fenwick, Charles	Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)	Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)	Murphy, John	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond	Newnes, Sir George	Wood, James
Flavin, Michael Joseph	O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid)	Woodhouse, Sir J.T. (Hudd'rsf'd
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)	O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Fuller, J. M. F.	Parrott, William	Herbert Lewis and Mr.
Furness, Sir Christopher	Partington, Oswald	John Johnson.
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Doxford, Sir William Theodore	Knowles, Sir Lees
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Duke, Henry Edward	Laurie, Lieut.-General
Aird, Sir John	Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin	Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart	Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N.R.
Arrol, Sir William	Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton	Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareh'm
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H	Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.	Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Austin, Sir John	Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J. (Manc'r	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst	Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S
Baird, John George Alexander	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Balcarres, Lord	Fisher, William Hayes	Lowe, Francis William
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)	Fison, Frederick William	Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds	FitzGerald, Sir Bobert Penrose-	Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon	Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)	Flannery, Sir Fortescue	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Flower, Sir Ernest	Macdona, John dimming
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Forster, Henry William	MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Bignold, Arthur	Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W	Maconochie, A. W.
Bill, Charles	Galloway, William Johnson	M'Fadden, Edward
Blundell, Colonel Henry.	Gardner, Ernest	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh)
Bond, Edward	Garfit, William	M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.	Majendie, James A. H.
Bousfield, William Robert	Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn	Manners, Lord Cecil
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn)	Gordon, Maj. Evans (T'r H'mlets	Martin, Richard Biddulph
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon	Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.
Brotherton, Edward Allen	Goschen, Hon. George Joachim	Maxwell, Rt. Hn Sir H.E. (Wig'tn
Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.
Bull, William James	Graham, Henry Robert	Melville, Beresford Valentine
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Butcher, John George	Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A. (Glasgow)	Grenfell, William Henry	Milvain, Thomas
Carson, R. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Gretton, John	Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Cautley, Henry Strother	Greville, Hon. Ronald	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire)	Groves, James Grimble	Moore, William
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Gunter, Sir Robert	Morgan, David J. (Walth'stow
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Hall, Edward Marshall	Morpeth, Viscount
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)	Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.	Morrell, George Herbert
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J.A. (Worc.	Hambro, Charles Eric	Morrison, James Archibald
Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton)	Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Chapman, Edward	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd	Mount, William Arthur
Charrington, Spencer	Hare, Thomas Leigh	Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute
Clare, Octavius Leigh	Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th	Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)
Clive, Captain Percy A.	Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath
Coates, Edward Feetham	Hay, Hon. Claude George	Myers, William Henry
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.	Newdegate, Francis A. N.
Coddington, Sir William	Heaton, John Henniker	Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Helder, Augustus	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.	Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Colomb, Rt. Hn. Sir John C. R.	Hickman, Sir Alfred	Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. (Athole.)	Hoare, Sir Samuel	Percy, Earl
Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge	Hobhouse, Rt. Hn. H (Somers't, E	Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)	Hogg, Lindsay	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Crean, Eugene	Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside	Plummer, Walter R.
Cripps, Charles Alfred	Horner, Frederick William	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Pretyman, Ernest George
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile	Hoult, Joseph	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Dalkeith, Earl of	Houston, Robert Paterson	Purvis, Robert
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham	Pym, C. Guy
Davenport, William Bromley-	Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil	Rankin, Sir James
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham	Hudson, George Bickersteth	Ratcliff, R. F.
Denny, Colonel	Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse	Reid, James (Greenock)
Dickinson, Robert Edmond	Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred.	Remnant, James Farquharson
Dickson, Charles Scott	Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton	Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.	Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)	Renwick, George
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.	Richards, Henry Charles
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon	Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh	Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Doogan, P. C.	kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop	Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.	Kerr, John	Roberts, Samuel Sheffield
Doughty, George	kimber, Henry	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers	king, Sir Henry Seymour	Robinson, Brooke

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.	Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart	Welby, Sir Charles G. G. (Notts.
Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.	Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert	Stock, James Henry	Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne
Round, Rt. Hon. James	Stone, Sir Benjamin	Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Rutherford, John (Lancashire)	Stroyan, John	Williams, Colonel B. (Dorset)
Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)	Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)
Samuel, Sir Harry S(Limehouse	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)	Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)	Thorburn, Sir Walter	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)	Tollemache, Henry James	Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Seton-Karr, Sir Henry	Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Sharpe, William Edward T.	Tritton, Charles Ernest	Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Sheehan, Daniel Daniel	Tuff, Charles	Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Simeon, Sir Barrington	Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward	Young, Samuel
Smith, H.C. (North'mb. Tyneside	Valentia, Viscount	Younger, William
Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.	Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H. ( Sheffield
Spear, John Ward	Walker, Col. William Hall	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk	Warde, Colonel C. E.	Alexander Acland-Hood and
Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset	Webb, Colonel William George	Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.	Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E (Taunton

MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE (Somersetshire, E.)

said that the object of his Amendment was to secure that there should be some provision for a systematic report and inquiry by the justices in each licensing district as regarded public-houses for the guidance of quarter sessions. The consequential part of the Amendment appeared on page twenty-eight of the Amendment Paper. He considered that under the scheme of the Bill it was necessary to transfer those powers from the licensing justices to the quarter sessions; but they should be careful, in doing that, not to unnecessarily weaken the power of the licensing justices. There was no new duty imposed under this Bill on the licensing justices to take any survey of the public-houses in their district and to decide which of them ought to be shut up and which ought to be continued. The great object of this Bill, as they were constantly informed by the Government, was to make a large reduction in the number of public-houses; and it was because of that consideration that many of them voted for the Second Reading. But, unless there was some further provision, that would not be done in all cases. In saying that he did not wish to cast any slur on quarter sessions, of the honour of which the Solicitor-General was so justly jealous. He had no doubt they would do their duty; but that duty would be to deal from time to time with the individual cases referred to them. Quarter sessions would have no initiative; and he contended that the only way in which quarter sessions could get a comprehen- sive view of the conditions, and exercise any intelligent discrimination as to what public-houses should be shut, was to provide within the lour corners of the Bill for a proper and systematic inquiry by the justices in every licensing district, who were the people best acquainted with the facts. It was most important that quarter sessions before they proceeded to administer the compensation fund should have a comprehensive report such as he proposed. Otherwise, there would be certain to be great irregularity, which would be undesirable. There ought to be a proper and systematic report. He had an Amendment further on to provide that the justices of every licensing district should, at their general licensing sessions, or an adjournment thereof, to be held in the year 1905, and in every third subsequent year, inquire into the needs of their district and the number and character of the licensed houses therein, and should make a report to quarter sessions stating the particular on-licences (if any) which in their opinion ought not to be renewed, and any circumstances affecting such licences or the holder thereof which might he material to the renewal or to the value of such licences. If that could be secured, then, and only then, would quarter sessions be able to take a comprehensive view of their duties and decide what was best in the interests of temperance. He did not insist on the exact words of the Amendment; but he hoped the Government would insert an Amendment to carry out his object.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, after the word 'shall' to insert the words 'subject to the provisions of this section for inquiry and report by licensing justices.'"—(Mr. Henry Hobhouse.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

SIR EDWARD CARSON

said that any Amendment moved by his right hon. friend would naturally receive the fullest consideration from the Government. He was not sure, however, that he quite understood the Amendment except in a general way. He understood it to mean that quarter sessions should every three years take a full survey of the whole situation. What was to follow? If they had to wait until this survey was made every three years in order to see what action should be taken, this would mean a revolution in the present annual system. At present there was annual revision, which, he submitted, was a much better system, for it enabled the licensing authorities to carry out the wishes of the justices in each district as far as they were agreed. He could not see, therefore, what was to be gained by changing the system. The Amendment gave quarter sessions powers of initiation which they did not now possess, and he thought that the annual revision was preferable. The point he did not understand was what action would be taken in the interval between the triennial periods.

MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE

said that there was nothing in his Amendment to prevent a report in any year.

SIR EDWARD CARSON

said it would be open to the justices to take a survey at any period, and report to quarter sessions. He did not really think anything would be gained by the Amendment. They did not intend to interfere with the licensing justices further than was necessitated by the principles of compensation. It would be impossible, without changing the whole licensing law, to take away the annual revision; and there would be no difficulty in the licensing justices surveying their districts and reporting to quarter sessions. He had not the least objection to confer with the right hon. Gentleman. This was a matter which did not go to the principle of the Bill and he would have pleasure in meeting his hon. friend, if he could, by drafting an Amendment which would carry out the object he desired. He might say that there was a similar Amendment further down on the Paper in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon, which he was prepared to accept, which had in view that the progress of quarter sessions should be steadily kept under review. That seemed to him to be an important Amendment, keeping strictly in view what was being done, and an Amendment which he was prepared to accept. So far as the wording of this Amendment was concerned, while he did not say an Amendment of this character ought not to be accepted, it gave greater power of control to quarter sessions, and that being so he could not accept it.

MR. CRIPPS

said, though they were grateful to the Solicitor-General for what he had said, that he could not help thinking the hon. and learned Gentleman had not entirely apprehended what this Amendment sought to do. The underlying idea was to obtain a triennial or annual review, of the licences of each district. He agreed that it should be an annual review but that was a detail which did not go to the basis of the Amendment. In order that the county authority should do its best and make the best of the compensation fund, it would be necessary to work on what might be called a county scheme. They had to see what had to be done in the county area in order to see how the fund could be worked to the best advantage, and how could a county scheme be arrived at without making the county authority the initiating authority for this reform? What his right hon. friend proposed by his Amendment was not to interfere with the main principle but to so modify it as to obtain the knowledge of the local authority, so as to enable the county authority to use the compensation fund to the best advantage, and he proposed to do so by asking the local Bench of each district to send are port to the county authority of the needs of the district. If that were done the county authority would be able to get out a good county scheme because they would have the local knowledge which every one desired they should have. Instead of having to rely on a chance objection made by an individual they would be able to ask each particular bench of magistrates to draw out the scheme which they thought best for administering the Bill in their own particular district. When the local justices had done that the county authority could act on the full information coming from these local authorities and the fund would be allocated to its true purpose. He asked the Solicitor-General, therefore, to say that, if a scheme could be evolved which would at once preserve the power of the licensing magistrates of the district and at the same time ensure that the quarter sessions had proper information to deal with the fund in the best possible manner under a county scheme, an Amendment should be introduced to bring together those two desirable objects. Every one interested in this licensing question would agree that this would be a great administrative reform and that it would enable this Bill to be carried out in a broad and at the same time a most economical manner. On these grounds he supported the Amendment.

MR. DUKE (Plymouth)

said he hoped the Solicitor-General would introduce some words into the Bill to give effect to the principle of the Amendment of his right hon. friend. The Bill as it stood was incomplete without the acceptance of some such Amendment as that. The Solicitor-General had assumed that there was at the licensing sessions at the present time a review of licences with a view of ascertaining where licences were redundant.

SIR EDWARD CARSON

I say they have the power.

MR. DUKE

said he had no doubt of that, but what he desired was that they should not only have the power, but that they should also be reminded of their duty. If words were not put in to impress upon the justices the necessity of considering whether there were, or were not, redundant licences in their district, this Bill would fail in its object. All that was desired by the hon. Member for East Somersetshire was that some words should be introduced which would make it the duty of the licensing justices, either annually or at some other period of time, to consider whether there were in the district redundant licences and what ought to be done with those licences The concession which the Government had made with regard to the imposition upon quarter sessions of the duty of reporting to the Home Secretary was the strongest possible argument in favour of putting upon the licensing justices the duty of reporting to the quarter sessions.

MR. TALBOT (Oxford University)

said he desired to support the Amendment, but from a different point of view from that of the mover of it. What he hoped would result from this discussion was that that stimulus would be applied to the local justices which, notwithstanding what had been said as to their extreme energy, was requisite looking to the infirmities of human nature. As the general desire was to remove all redundant licences it must be made not only permissible for the local justices to remove them, but a stimulus must be applied to ensure that they should do so. It was for the reason that he desired to see the stimulus applied that he supported the Amendment.

MR. PEEL (Manchester, S.)

asked whether, in view of the strong feeling on the Government side of the House that something in the direction of the Amendment should be carried out, the Solicitor-General would undertake to introduce a clause. If the matter were postponed to the Report stage, there might, in consequence of the arrangement of new clauses, be some difficulty.

SIR EDWARD CARSON

was not sure that he yet understood the object of the Amendment. It appeared to be an attempt to enlarge the power of quarter sessions. Under the Bill the licensing justices were the persons to select the houses to be sent up to quarter sessions. They were bound to do that each year.

MR. DUKE

pointed out that there was no obligation in the Bill.

SIR EDWARD CARSON

said that neither was there any obligation upon the licensing justices now. This was a new complaint. Hitherto the point he had had to meet was that the Government were taking away powers of the licensing justices, but the case here was different. If the selection was left to the licensing justices, how, by sending up a report to quarter sessions, could they effect anything unless the initiation was left to quarter sessions? He did not think the Amendment was necessary, but if the object was to make it clear that it was for brewster sessions to select the cases and for quarter sessions to say whether they agreed or disagreed, he was quite willing to try to meet that view. Under the Bill quarter sessions would have a report from, and a consultation with, the licensing justices, and he failed to see what further assistance in coming to a conclusion would be given by the Amendment. There was also the question of expense. If each year the licensing justices were to send up a report, not merely of the houses which they suggested should be taken away in that year, but of all redundant houses, leaving it to quarter sessions to make a selection, not only would that be a greater infringement upon the rights of the licensing justices than the Bill now made, but it would be necessary for every person interested in each one of those houses to appear annually before quarter sessions, although probably less than one-tenth of the houses would be dealt with in any particular year. That would be almost a prohibitive matter from the point of view of expense. If it was thought to be any advantage that the local magistrates should make the same annual report to the Home Office, and that that Department should distribute it to quarter sessions, he was willing to include that in the Amendment he had promised.

MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE

said he was afraid that would not meet the case. His object was that quarter sessions should have from each district not only a report as to the particular houses which were proper subjects for immediate action, but full information as to the other houses which it would be advisable to get rid of in the future, so that they should not dissipate all their money at once. He was sure that was an object which the Government could secure if they liked. This subject would not be discussed on Report owing to the very stringent rules which had been laid down, and he was very much afraid that a mere conference would not produce that effect which would cause the suggestion to be accepted.

MR. TALBOT

said that after hearing what the Solicitor-General had said he was thoroughly satisfied. He was of opinion that these powers which the justices had possessed had not always been operative forces in the country, and he thought it would require a considerable amount of pressure on the local justices to make sure that they would put this provision into operation. The Solicitor-General had promised to provide that it should be the duty of the licensing justices to report to the Home Office what they had done under the Act, and probably that would give that stimulus to putting the Act into operation which he desired.

MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR

said he did not know whether his right hon. and learned friend appreciated the fact that this Bill gave no stimulus whatever to the licensing justices to take a survey of the needs of the district every year. Clause 2 provided that the licensing justices were to report on the question of the renewal of any particular on-licences. A concrete illustration of what had happened in Liverpool was valuable as a forecast of what was likely to happen under this Bill. In Liverpool they took a number of areas where the property had been demolished, and year by year they considered the redundancy of licences in those areas. After extinguishing a number of licences in any particular area they did not trouble that district again for some time, and possibly would not touch any more licences in that district for many years. That was a illustration of how this Bill ought to work if any good was really going to be done. His hon. friend had stated that in the past some benches of magistrates had been too active while others had not been active enough. What he desired was to give the necessary stimulus to the licensing justices to bring their efforts up to the requirements of temperance reform by directing them to take a survey of the whole needs of the area.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 192; Noes, 251. (Division List No.205.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, K.E.)	Grant, Corrie	Paulton, James Mellor
Allen, Charles P.	Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwiek)	Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Griffith, Ellis J.	Perks, Robert William
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry	Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	Philipps, John Wynford
Atherley-Jones, L.	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Price, Robert John
Barlow, John Emmott	Hain, Edward	Rea, Russell
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.	Reckitt, Harold James
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale)	Reddy, M.
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B	Harcourt, Rt. Hn Sir W(Monm't)	Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries
Bell, Richard	Harwood, George	Rickett, J. Compton
Benn, John Williams	Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.	Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Bill, Charles	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Black, Alexander William	Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Roland, John	Higham, John Sharpe	Roche, John
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)	Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Brigg, John	Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)	Rose, Charles Day
Broadhurst, Henry	Horniman, Frederick John	Runciman, Walter
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk	Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Shackleton, Davin James
Burt, Thomas	Jacoby, James Alfred	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Johnson, John (Gateshead)	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Caldwell, James	Joicey, Sir James	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H	Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea)	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Cawley, Frederick	Jones, William (Carnarvonshire	Slack, John Bamford
Channing, Francis Allston	Jordan, Jeremiah	Sloan, Thomas Henry
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Joyce, Michael	Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Kitson, Sir James	Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow	Lambert, George	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Craig Robert Hunter (Lanark)	Langley, Batty	Spear, John Ward
Cremer, William Randal	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)	Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Crombie, John William	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Crooks, William	Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)	Strachey, Sir Edward
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Leng, Sir John	Sullivan, Donal
Cullinan, J.	Levy, Maurice	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Dalziel, James Henry	Lewis, John Herbert	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Lloyd-George, David	Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)	Lough, Thomas	Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower
Delany, William	Lundon, W.	Tomkinson, James
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Lyell, Charles Henry	Toulmin, George
Dobbie, Joseph	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	MacNeill, John Gordon Swift	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Duncan, J. Hastings	MacVeagh, Jeremiah	Ure, Alexander
Dunn, Sir William	M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)	Wallace, Robert
Edwards, Frank	M'Crae, George	Walton, John Lawson(Leeds, S.)
Elibank, Master of	M'Kenna, Reginald	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Ellice, Capt, E.C. (SAndrw's Bghs	M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Mansfield, Horace Rendall	Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)	Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe	Welby, Sir Charles G.E. (Notts.)
Emmott, Alfred	Markham, Arthur Basil	White, George (Norfolk)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas	Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh)	White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Evans, Sir Fran. H. (Maidstone	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan	Morpeth, Viscount	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Eve, Harry Trelawney	Moss, Samuel	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Fenwick, Charles	Moulton, John Fletcher	Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)	Murphy, John	Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst	Newnes, Sir George	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond	Nussey, Thomas Willans	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Flavin, Michael Joseph	O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)	Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)	O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)	Yoxall, James Henry
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.	O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)
Fuller, J. M. F.	O'Malley, William
Furness, Sir Christopher	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—MR.
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John	Parrott, William	Henry Hobhouse and Mr.
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Partington, Oswald	Austin Taylor.
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol S.)
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart	Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Aird, Sir John	Egerton, Hon. A. do Tatton	Lowe, Francis William
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Faber, Edmund R. (Hants, W.)	Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)
Arrol, Sir William	Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r)	Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth)
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Austin, Sir John	Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas	Macdona, John Gumming
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Fisher, William Hayes	MacIver, David- (Liverpool)
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Fison, Frederick William	Maconochie, A. W.
Baird, John George Alexander	FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-	M'Fadden, Edward
Balcarres, Lord	Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon	M'Iver, Sir Lewis ( Edinb'rgh, W.)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)	Flannery, Sir Fortcscue	M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)	Flower, Sir Ernest	Majendie, James A. H.
Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds	Forster, Henry William	Malcolm, Ian
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christen.	Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W.	Martin, Richard Biddulph
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Galloway, William Johnson	Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)	Gardner, Ernest	Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H.E (Wigt'n
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Garfit, William	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Bhowuaggree, Sir M. M.	Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Bignold, Arthur	Goschen, Hon. George Joachim	Milvain, Thomas
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Bond, Edward	Graham, Henry Robert	Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Gray, Ernest (West Ham)	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Bousfield, William Robert	Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)	Morgan, David J (Walthamstow
Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John	Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)	Morrell, George Herbert
Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)	Grenfell, William Henry	Morrison, James Archibald
Bull, William James	Gretton, John	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Greville, Hon. Ronald	Mount, William Arthur
Butcher, John George	Groves, James Grimble	Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute
Campbell. Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow	Gunter, Sir Robert	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Carlile, William Walter	Hall, Edward Marshall	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.	Myers, William Henry
Cautley, Henry Strother	Hambro, Charles Eric	Nannetti, Joseph P.
Cavendish. V.C.W. (Derbyshire	Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry	Newdegate, Francis A. N.
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford	Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Hare, Thomas Leigh	Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)	Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A. (Wore.	Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich)	O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton	Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley	O'Dowd, John
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry	Heath, James (Staffords, N.W.)	Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Chapman, Edward	Heaton, John Henniker	Pemberton, John S. G.
Charrington, Spencer	Hendorson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)	Percy, Earl
Churchill, Winston Spencer	Hickman, Sir Alfred	Pierpoint, Robert
Clare, Octavius Leigh	Hoare, Sir Samuel	Pilkington, Colonel Richard.
Clive, Captain Percy A.	Hogg, Lindsay	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Coates, Edward Feetham	Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Cohrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.	Hoult, Joseph	Pretyman, Ernest George
Coddington, Sir William	Houston, Robert Paterson	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham)	Rankin, Sir James
Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C.R.	Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham	Ratcliff, R. F.
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole	Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil	Reid, James (Greenock)
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Hudson, George Bickersteth	Remnant, James Farquharson
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.	Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred	Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Crean, Eugene	Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton	Renwick, George
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)	Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)	Richards, Henry Charles
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile	Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)	Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Dalkeith, Earl of	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Kerr, John	Robinson, Brooke
Davenport, William Bromley	Keswick, William	Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham	Kimber, Henry	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Dickinson, Robert Edmond	King, Sir Henry Seymour	Round, Rt. Hon. James
Dickson, Charles Scott	Knowles, Sir Lees	Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.	Laurie, Lieut.-General	Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon	Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N.R.	Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Doogan, P. C.	Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham	Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse
Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.	Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Doughty, George	Llewellyn, Evan Henry	Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Seton-Karr, Sir Henry
Doxford, Sir William Theodore	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)	Sharpe, William Edward T.

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel	Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.	Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)
Simeon, Sir Barrington	Tuff, Charles	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)	Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward	Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk	Valentia, Viscount	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)	Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H. (Sheffield	Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.)	Walker, Col. William Hall	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart	Warde, Colonel C. E.	Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Stock, James Henry	Webb, Colonel William George	Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Stone, Sir Benjamin	Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton	Young, Samuel
Stroyan, John	Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd	Younger, William
Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley	Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne
Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)	Whitmore, Charles Algernon	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord	Alexander Acland-Hood
Thorburn, Sir Walter	Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)	and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

MR. CHANNING (Northamptonshire, E.)

said he did not propose to move the Amendment standing in his name. He thought it was desirable to support the Amendment to be proposed by the hon. Member for Huddersfield.

SIR JAMES WOODHOUSE

said he wished to move in line 9 of Clause 1, after "in," to insert "a committee, one-half of whom in every case shall be elected by the justices of the licensing district from their own number, and one-half by the county council from their own number." He said that this Amendment raised the question of the introduction of some representative element in the constitution of the authority which would have to deal with licences. He was fortified in submitting the Amendment by the fact that the principle received the support of both the Majority and Minority Reports of the Royal Commission. He also claimed that the Scottish Act of last year contained precisely the same suggestion he was making. What was good for Scotland ought to be good for England. Apart from that, the introduction of the representative principle was thoroughly justified by the fact that the ratepayers had to pay for the consequences of intemperance in the shape of increased police rates and poor rates and all the consequences that flowed from the excessive use of intoxicating drinks. The ordinary principle of self-government, namely, that what the ratepayers had to pay for they ought to have some right to control, should be observed in this matter. As long ago as 1835 the House of Commons sanctioned that principle, when the Municipal Reform Act of that year was under discussion, by a large majority. The House of Lords rejected the proposal, but the view of the House of Commons was that the whole question of licences should be placed in the hands of municipal corporations. Further, the Conservative Government, when the Local Government Act was being considered in the year 1888, proposed to give a committee of the county council power to deal with licences, so that he had these precedents in support of his Amendment.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, to leave out from the word 'in,' to the word 'but,' in line 10, and insert the words 'a committee, one-half of whom in every case shall be elected by the justices of the licensing district from their own number, and one-half by the county council from their own number.'"—(Sir James Woodhouse.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'quarter sessions' stand part of the clause."

THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG, Bristol, S.)

said that the Government were unable to accept the Amendment. The hon. Member had referred to what took place in 1888, when the Conservative Government proposed to make a committee of the county council the authority to administer licences; but the authority of 1888 was based on different principles from those which they were now proposing; although he admitted now proposing; although he admitted that if the proposal of the Government of 1888 had been accepted a great many of the existing difficulties would not have arisen. The Amendment was wholly at variance with the principle followed in drafting the Bill, which had been to make as little change as possible in the existing system and to leave the decision to a judicial body. There were differences of administration in counties and boroughs, but as closely as possible the Bill kept to the existing system. The Amendment would mean a radical change in the existing system, and such was not intended. Really the changes made by the Bill in the licensing system would be small; if the justices refused a renewal of a licence to an applicant, the ultimate decision would rest with the quarter sessions as a judicial body.

SIR JAMES WOODHOUSE

That would not apply to county boroughs.

MR. WALTER LONG

There were points of difference in administration between the county boroughs and the county councils. The Government had endeavoured to keep as nearly as possible to the existing system, and to leave to the magistrates the decision of the matters in question. The proposal

of the hon. Gentleman would involve a complete change in the existing system, because instead of these cases being referred to quarter sessions they would be referred to a committee, half of whom would be elected by the licensing justices and half by the county council. They proposed to give to the body in which the power now rested the right to say what licence should not be renewed and the exercise of that right accompanied by compensation to be provided by the trade itself. The Amendment would be a radical departure from the proposals in the Bill; and he, therefore, hoped the Committee would not accept it.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 245; Noes, 151. (Division List, No. 206.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Clive, Captain Percy A.	Galloway, William Johnson
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Coates, Edward Feetham	Gardner, Ernest
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A. E.	Garfit, William
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.	Coddington, Sir William	Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn
Arrol, Sir William	Coghill, Douglas Harry	Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Goulding, Edward Alfred
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.	Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole	Graham, Henry Robert
Austin, Sir John	Compton, Lord Alwyne	Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.	Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)
Baird, John George Alexander	Crean, Eugene	Grenfell, William Henry
Balcarres, Lord	Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)	Gretton, John
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)	Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile	Greville, Hon. Ronald
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)	Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Groves, James Grimble
Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds	Davenport, William Bromley-	Hambro, Charles Eric
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.	Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham	Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'derry
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Dickinson, Robert Edmond	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)	Dickson, Charles Scott	Hare, Thomas Leigh
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon	Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.
Bignold, Arthur	Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.	Hay, Hon. Claude George
Bigwood, James	Doughty, George	Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley
Bill, Charles	Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-	Heath, James (Staffords. N.W.
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Doxford, Sir William Theodore	Helder, Augustus
Bond, Edward	Duke, Henry Edward	Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin	Hickman, Sir Alfred
Bousfield, William Robert	Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart	Hoare, Sir Samuel
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton	Hogg, Lindsay
Bull, William James	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Hope, J.F. (Sheffield. Brightside
Butcher, John George	Faber, Edmuna B. (Hants, W.)	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A. (Glasgow	Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r	Hoult, Joseph
Carlile, William Walter	Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst	Houston, Robert Paterson
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)
Cautley, Henry Strother	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire	Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas	Hudson, George Bickersteth
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Fisher, William Hayes	Jameson, Majer J. Eustace
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Fison, Frederick William	Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.
Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A. (Worc.	FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose	Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton
Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton	Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon	Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry	Flannery, Sir Fortescue	Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)
Chapman, Edward	Flower, Sir Ernest	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop
Charrington, Spencer	Forster, Henry William	Kerr, John
Clare, Octavius Leigh	Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W.	Kimber, Henry
King, Sir Henry Seymour	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer	Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Knowles, Sir Lees	Mount, William Arthur	Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Laurie, Lieut.-General	Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)	Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)	Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N.R.	Myers, William Henry	Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)
Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham	Nannetti, Joseph P.	Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.
Llewellyn, Evan Henry	Newdegate, Francis A. N.	Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.	Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)	Stock, James Henry
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham	O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N)	Stone, Sir Benjamin
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)	Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)	Stroyan, John
Lonsdale, John Brownlee	Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Lowe, Francis William	Pemberton, John S. G.	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)	Percy, Earl	Tollemache, Henry James
Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Pierpoint, Robert	Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)	Pilkington, Colonel Richard	Tuff, Charles
Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)	Platt-Higgins, Frederick	Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Valentia, Viscount
Macdona, John Cumming	Pretyman, Ernest George	Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H (Sheffield
MacIver, David (Liverpool)	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward	Walker, Col. William Hall
M'Fadden, Edward	Pym, C. Guy	Welby, Lt.-Col A.C.E. (Taunton
M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W.	Rankin, Sir James	Welby, Sir Charles G.E. (Notts.)
M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)	Ratcliff, R. F.	Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne
Majendie, James A. H.	Reid, James (Greenock)	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Malcolm, Ian	Remnant, James Farquharson	Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
Martin, Richard Biddulph	Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine	Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)
Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.	Richards, Henry Charles	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H.E. (Wigt'n	Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green	Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriesshire	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Robinson, Brooke	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Mesey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Rolleston, Sir John F. L.	Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye	Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Milvain, Thomas	Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert	Young, Samuel
Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)	Round, Rt. Hon. James	Younger, William
Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants)	Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir
Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow	Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander	Alexander Acland-Hood and
Morpeth, Viscount	Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse	Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Morrell, George Herbert	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Morrison, James Archibald	Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)	Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Dalziel, James Henry	Grant, Corrie
Atherley-Jones, L.	Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)
Barlow, John Emmott	Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan	Griffith, Ellis J.
Barron, Rowland Hirst	Delany, William	Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Dobbie, Joseph	Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale
Bell, Richard	Doogan, P. C.	Harcourt, Rt Hn Sir W (Monm'th
Benn, John Williams	Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	Harwood, George
Black, Alexander William	Dunn, Sir William	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.
Boland, John	Edwards, Frank	Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Elibank, Master of	Higham, John Sharpe
Brigg, John	Ellice, Capt E C (S Andrw's Bghs)	Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)
Broadhurst, Henry	Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)	Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)	Emmott, Alfred	Horniman, Frederick John
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)
Burt, Thomas	Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)	Johnson, John (Gateshead)
Caldwell, James	Eve, Harry Trelawney	Joicey, Sir James
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)	Fenwick, Charles	Jones William(Carnarvonshire
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)	Jordan, Jeremiah
Cawley, Frederick	Flavin, Michael Joseph	Joyce, Michael
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Foster, Sir Waiter (Derby Co.)	Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W.
Gorbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)	Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.	Kitson, Sir James
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)	Fuller, J. M. F.	Lambert, George
Cremer, William Randal	Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John	Langley Batty
Crooks, William	Goddard, Daniel Ford	Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.	Taylor, Theodore G (Radcliffe)
Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington	Parrott, William	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Leng, Sir John	Partington, Oswald	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Lewis, John Herbert	Paulton, James Mellor	Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower
Loyd-George, David	Philipps, John Wynford	Tomkinson, James
Lundon, W.	Reckitt, Harold James	Toulmin, George
Lyell, Charles Henry	Reddy, M.	Ure, Alexander
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift	Rickett, J. Compton	Wallace, Robert
MacVeagh, Jeremiah	Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)	Walton, John Lawson (Leeds
M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
M'Crae, George	Roche, John	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin	Runciman, Walter	Wason John Cathcart (Orkney)
Mansfield, Horace Rendall	Russell, T. W.	White, George (Norfolk)
Markham, Arthur Basil	Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)	White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)	Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight	Whitley J. H. (Halifax)
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)	Shackleton, David James	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Moss, Samuel	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)	Williams, Osmond (Merioneh)
Moulton, John Fletoher	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)	Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)
Murphy, John	Shipman, Dr. John G.	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.
Newnes, Sir George	Slack, John Bamford	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Nussey, Thomas Willans	Sloan, Thomas Henry	Wood, James
O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid	Smith, Samuel (Flint)
O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.)	Spear, John Ward	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)	Stanhope, Hon. Philip James	Mr. Channing and Mr.
O' Kelly, James(Rosoommon, N.	Strachey, Sir Edward	Charles Allen
O'Malley, William	Sullivan, Donal

MR. DUKE

said he had been astonished, not to say dismayed, to hear the President of the Local Government Board assume as a fact that the quarter sessions in discharging the duties to be discharged under this Bill would act as a judicial body. Everyone conversant with the duties of quarter sessions would know that they had two separate and distinct sets of duties, one of them administrative and the other judicial. There was no difficulty in distinguishing between the administrative duties which had devolved on justices by the practice of centuries and the operation of Acts of Parliament and a different character. It was essential their judicial duties which were of quite that Parliament should decide whether the duties devolving on quarter sessions through this Bill, which was an administrative measure, should be performed by quarter sessions as a judicial or an administrative body. He submitted that these administrative duties should be performed by quarter sessions as an administrative body.

And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report again this evening.