HC Deb 06 July 1904 vol 137 cc809-69

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

Clause 1:—

Amendment again proposed— In page 1, line 9, after the words last inserted, to insert the words 'except in county boroughs.' "—Sir James Woodhouse.

Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."


I have to ask leave to withdraw this Amendment in view of the promise of the Solicitor-General to consider this question.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

SIR ROBERT REID (Dumfries Burghs)

moved an Amendment with the object of allowing the magistrates to take into consideration not one isolated reason for non-renewal of a licence, but a combination of reasons, as they had hitherto done. He said it was desirable to retain unimpaired the elasticity of discretion which the magistrates now possessed, and he wanted to insure that in future they should be able to take into consideration not one isolated reason for non-renewal but a combination of reasons. Obviously it weakened the power of the magistrates to insist on the maintenance of good order to split their discretion up into water-tight compartments.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, after the words last inserted, to insert the words' or any of the before-mentioned grounds in combination with any other ground.'"—(Sir Robert Reid.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."


said the Government could not accept the Amendment. It would be very unfair to the licence-holder to tell him that his licence was being taken away partly on grounds for which he ought to get compensation and partly on grounds for which he ought not to get compensation, and that, therefore, he would get no compensation. It was impossible under the scheme of the Bill that such an arrangement could be set up.

MR. WHITLEY (Halifax)

suggested that the Amendment might be modified so that no grounds outside those contained in the Bill should be brought in. That would go some way to meet the strong feeling on his side of the House. The point was this. There might not be strong enough evidence on any one single ground to justify the refusal of the renewal, yet the evidence on these grounds combined might suffice for taking away a licence without compensation. All they desired was to enable the magistrates to deal with the three grounds in combination.


said there was nothing to prevent the magistrates from taking one, two, or three grounds and putting them together, but these grounds ought, in fact, to exist; they ought not to be able to add together three incomplete grounds in order to make one complete ground.


said the result of the clause was to entirely alter the practice of the past. A house might have been bad structurally or the tenant might have misconducted it, but there had been hitherto a free discretion on the part of the magistrates in dealing with such cases and by the refusal of this Amendment the existing practice would be subverted.

MR. WHITTAKER (Yorkshire, W.R., Spen Valley)

said this was a very important point, and it was necessary the country should know what was being done. Justices at present very frequently refused the renewal of a licence on several grounds, and the combination of grounds was the ground of refusal. The Government's attitude was an illustration of the way in which the power of the justices was going to be materially limited, hampered, and checked. In his opinion the compensation should be limited to the cases where the renewal was refused solely because the house was not required.

MR. GROVES (Salford, S.)

hoped the Government would not give way on this point. If the licence-holder committed offences the magistrates would be able to exercise their powers as in the past; it was only to the point of compensation that the provision under discussion was directed. If the Amendment were accepted, they would, he feared, find that in nine cases out of ten trivial complaints would be combined in the manner suggested in order to depreciate the amount of compensation.

MR. TOMKINSON (Cheshire, Crewe)

said he had in his mind a case that came before the Bench of which he was chairman, in which the representative of the sanitary authority objected to the renewal of a licence on the ground that the holder had persistently refused to provide a proper water supply. The justices, in the exercise of the power which they at present possessed, gave the licensee a certain time within which to remedy the defect. He was contumacious, and it was only when, as a last resource, the withdrawal of the licence was threatened that he agreed to equip his house with a proper water supply. He feared that under the clause as it stood the power to exercise such pressure would be taken away from the justices.


assured the hon. Gentleman that the case he had mentioned would not come within the Bill.


stated that during the past year only 210 licences, out of a total of 99,450, were suppressed for duplicate reasons; and in only fifty cases was the ground of non-requirement united with misbehaviour or structural deficiency. He mentioned that in order to show that in the past these considerations had not acted very powerfully in deciding the question of the renewal or refusal of a licence.

MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)

pointed out that there was nothing compelling quarter sessions to adopt this compensation scheme. There might be large districts where they would decline to adopt it. In that case, was it possible that the Government were contemplating arresting the action of the magistrates and impairing their discretion where compensation did not arise at all?


And without leaving anybody else in authority to exercise discretion.


Yes. Continuing, the hon. Member said that the Government by refusing to accept this Amendment would be crippling the present power of the justices. The Government raised, in defence of that, that these people were entitled to compensation, and therefore they could not shut them out without depriving them of compensation. His point was this: Let them take an area, the quarter sessions of which would not put this Act into operation at all. Was it not quite clear that this Bill would stand nevertheless, and that it would cripple the present power of the justices. He knew that that was the object of the brewers; but why should it be the object of the Government?


replied that he did not know whether that was a proper way to put the question, but he was quite willing to answer the substance without admitting any of the deductions which the hon. Member had made. The Question which the hon. Member asked came to this: the quarter sessions might refuse to adopt the compensation clause. If they had an area not willing to take away licences, what did it matter whether they put in two, three, or four reasons?


But you are taking power from the local justices who do think there ought to be a reduction.


said there, again, his hon. friend was entirely in error. Any licence-holder might appeal against a refusal to renew a licence.


I know.


continuing, said, if a county had a body of quarter sessions who were not prepared to adopt the clause or reduce licences it would be because they thought it was not necessary to reduce them. At all events, if they had a tribunal of that kind with important functions, not merely in relation to licences but to other matters, they must show some confidence in them.

LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICE (Wiltshire, Cricklade)

held that the Committee was justified in calling attention at the earliest possible moment to the extraordinary position in which Courts of the quarter sessions would be placed. It seemed to be suggested that they would have to meet beforehand to decide whether or not they would put the Act in force. As chairman of quarter sessions he was one of those who would have to administer the Act, and he was bound to say that their position would be totally different from that adumbrated by the Solicitor-General. In his opinion they would deal with each case as it arose and would not beforehand pass any resolution stating whether or not the Act should be enforced. But what would be the position if there were no compensation fund established? Would the justices not be in the ridiculous position of having their hands tied? The speech of the Solicitor-General would almost encourage quarter sessions to pass a resolution saying they did not approve of the Bill.


The noble Lord has no right to say that.


said that the Bill, while setting up elaborate machinery for the establishment of a compensation fund, put in possession of the Court a power which, if it chose to exercise it, would absolutely nullify the measure. In any case, until the compensation fund grew, they would have the absurd state of things that in one county—a rich one—the Act would be in operation and in the next county—a poor one—it would be a dead letter.

MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR (Liverpool, East Toxteth)

said the point was that there was a possibility under Clause 3, that quarter sessions might not put into operation the levy for the purposes of compensation, and if they declined to do that they would have no fund available for compensation for the refusal to renew redundant licences. But that difficulty might be met by making it incumbent on quarter sessions to raise a compensation fund. When that was done it would still be open to quarter sessions to refuse to confirm the decision of the justices in regard to any particular licence. The position of the justices would not be altered. At present their decisions were subject to appeal. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman as to the vice from a temperance point of view of this particular clause. But they had debated it over and over again. The Government, by restricting the grounds upon which magistrates might refuse to renew licences to three—each of which he gathered from the Solicitor-General must be sufficient in itself as a ground of refusal—were most effectually crippling the powers of the magistrates with regard to the exercise of their magisterial discretion. It was impossible to accede to these compensation proposals without modifying in some way the absolute discretion of the magistrates, but he thought the difficulty might be met in the way suggested by the hon. Member for Carnarvon— I by giving the magistrates power to make by-laws subject to an appeal to the Secretary of State. By that method the trade would be protected against the eccentricities of "cranky" Benches, to which the Prime Minister recently referred. The discussion, however, was being carried on under the shadow of the guillotine, that most perfect instrument of Parliamentary despotism, of which neither political Party could claim an absolute majority. That being so, it was necessary to make the most of the time that remained, and not go over the same ground two or three times. He therefore hoped the Amendment would be withdrawn.

COLONEL PILKINGTON (Lancashire, Newton)

was understood to urge that the

word "shall" should be inserted when Clause 3 came to be discussed. Quarter sessions would no doubt do their duty but he thought it advisable that the raising of the compensation fund should be made compulsory.


in order to save time, asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Leave refused,.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 176; Noes, 255. (Division List, No. 200.)

Ainsworth, John Stirling Emmott, Alfred Lewis, John Herbert
Allen, Charles P. Esmonde, Sir Thomas Lloyd-George, David
Ashton, Thomas Gair Evans, Sir Francis H.(Maidstone Lough, Thomas
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Lundon, W.
Atherley-Jones, L. Farquharson, Dr. Robert Lyell, Charles Henry
Barlow, John Emmott Fenwick, Charles Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Barran, Rowland Hirst Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Bell, Richard Flynn, James Chritsopher M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)
Benn, John Williams Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry M'Crae, George
Black, Alexander William Fuller, J. M. F. M'Kenna, Reginald
Blake, Edward Furness, Sir Christopher Mansfield, Horace Rendall
Boland, John Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe
Brigg, John Goddard, Daniel Ford Markham, Arthur Basil
Broadhurst, Henry Grant, Corrie Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Newnes, Sir George
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale Nussey, Thomas Willans
Burt, Thomas Harcourt, Rt Hn Sir W (Monm'th O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Harwood, George O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Caldwell, James Hayden, John Patrick O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N
Cameron, Robert Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Parrott, William
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Partington, Oswald
Channing, Francis Alston Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Paulton, James Mellor
Churchill, Winston Spencer Higham, John Sharpe Philipps, John Wynford
Condon, Thomas Joseph Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E. Power, Patrick Joseph
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Hope, John Deans (Fife, West Price, Robert John
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Horniman, Frederick John Rea, Russell
Cremer, William Randal Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk Reckitt, Harold James
Crombie, John William Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Reddy, M.
Dalziel, James Henry Jacoby, James Alfred Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Johnson, John (Gateshead) Rickett, J. Compton
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan Joicey, Sir James Rigg, Richard
Delany, William Jordan, Jeremiah Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Devlin, CharlesRamsay (Galw'y Joyce, Michael Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Kilbride, Denis Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Dobbie, Joseph Kitson, Sir James Robson, William Snowdon
Donelan, Captain A. Lambert, George Roche, John
Doogan, P. C. Langley, Batty Rose, Charles Day
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) Runciman, Walter
Duncan, J. Hastings Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Schwann, Charles E.
Dunn, Sir William Layland-Barratt, Francis Seely, Maj. J.E.B.(Isle of Wight
Edwards, Frank Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington Shackleton, David James
Elibank, Master of Leigh, Sir Joseph Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Ellice, Capt EC (S Andrw'sBghs Leng, Sir John Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) Levy, Maurice Sheehy, David
Shipman, Dr. John G. Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Slack, John Bamford Tillet, Louis John Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)
Sloan, Thomas Henry Tomkinson, James Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk, Mid.
Soames, Arthur Wellesley Trevelyan, Charles Philips Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Stanhope, Hon. Philip James Ure, Alexander Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Stevenson, Francis S. Wallace, Robert Wood, James
Strachey, Sir Edward Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) Woodhouse, Sir J.T (Hudd'r sfi'd
Sullivan, Donal Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) Yoxall, James Henry
Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney
Tennant, Harold John White, George (Norfolk) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) White, Luke (York, E.R.) Ellis Griffith and Mr. T. W.
Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) Russell.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Denny, Colonel Hope, J.F. (Sheffield Brightside
Anson, Sir William Reynell Dickinson, Robert Edmond Horner, Frederick William
Arkwright, John Stanhope Dickson, Charles Scott Hoult, Joseph
Arrol, Sir William Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Houston, Robert Paterson
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)
Aubrey-Fletcher. Rt. Hon. Sir H Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil
Austin, Sir John Dixon Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Hudson, George Bickersteth
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse
Bailey, James (Walworth) Doughty, George Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.
Bain, Colonel James Robert Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.
Baird, John George Alexander Doxford, Sir William Theodore Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh
Balcarres, Lord Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop
Baldwin, Alfred Dyke, Rt Hon. Sir William Hart Kerr, John
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Kimber, Henry
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Doulgas Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) Lawson, JohnGrant (Yorks NR.
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manc'r Lee, Arthur H.(Hants. Fareham.
Bartley, Sir George C. T. Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Fisher, William Hayes Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Bignold, Arthur Fison, Frederick William Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham
Bill, Charles FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.
Blundell, Colonel Henry Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon Lowe, Francis William
Bond, Edward Flannery, Sir Fortescue Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Flower, Sir Ernest Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Bowles, Lt.-Col. H.F (Middlesex Forster, Henry William Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn Foster,Philip S.(Warwick, S.W. Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Galloway, William Johnson Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Brotherton, Edward Allen Gardner, Ernest Macdona, John Cumming
Burdett-Coutts, W. Garfit, William MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A.(Glasgow Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. Maconochie, A. W.
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Gordon. Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn M'Fadden, Edward
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire Gordon, Maj Evans (T'r H'mlets M'Iver, SirLewis (Edinburgh, W.
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Gore, Hon S. F.Ormsby-(Linc) M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A. (Worc. Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Goulding, Edward Alfred Majendie, James A. H.
Chapman, Edward Graham, Henry Robert Manners, Lord Cecil
Clive, Captain Percy A. Greene, Henry D.(Shrews bury) Martin, Richard Biddulph
Coates, Edward Feetham Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs Massey-Main waring, Hn. W. F.
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Grenfell, William Henry Maxwell. Rt Hn Sir H.E (Wigt'n
Coghill, Douglas Harry Gretton, John Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Greville, Hon. Ronald Melville, Beresford Valentine
Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C.R. Groves, James Grimble Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Gunter, Sir Robert Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Mil vain, Thomas
Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim,S. Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Crean, Eugene Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Cripps, Charles Alfred Hare. Thomas Leigh Moore, William
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th) Morgan, David J (Walthamstow
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) Morpeth, Viscount
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Heath, James (Staffords. N.W.) Morrell, George Herbert
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Heaton, John Henniker Morrison, James Archibald
Dalkeith, Earl of Helder, Augustus Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hoare, Sir Samuel Mount, William Arthur
Davenport, W. Bromley Hobhouse, Rt Hn H.(Somers't, E Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham Hogg, Lindsay Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Myers, William Henry Robinson, Brooke Tuff, Charles
Newdegate, Francis A. N. Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.) Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye Valentia, Viscount
Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Vincent, Col. Sir CEH(Sheffield
O' Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid Round, Rt. Hon. James Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Walker, Col. William Hall
O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Warde, Colonel C. E.
O'Dowd, John Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford Webb, Colonel William George
Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E.(Taunton
Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley Samuel, Sir Harry S (Limehouse Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.
Pemberton, John S. G. Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Percy, Earl Scott, Sir S. (Mary le bone, W.) Whiteley, H. (Ashton und Lyne
Pierpoint, Robert Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Pilkington, Colonel Richard Sharpe, William Edward T. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Piatt-Higgins, Frederick Shaw-Stewart, Sir H.(Renfrew) Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
Plummer, Walter R. Sheehan, Daniel Daniel Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Simeon, Sir Barrington Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Pretyman, Ernest George Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Purvis, Robert Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.) Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Pym, C. Guy Stewart, Sir Mark J M'Taggart Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Rankin, Sir James Stock, James Henry Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Ratcliff, R. F. Stone, Sir Benjamin Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Reid, James (Greenock) Stroyan, John Young, Samuel
Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Younger, William
Renwick, George Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Richards, Henry Charles Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green Thorburn, Sir Walter Alexander Acland-Hood and
Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Tollemache, Henry James Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Tritton, Charles Ernest
MR. MCKENNA (Monmouthshire, N.)

moved to leave out of lines 9, and 10, after the word "licence," the words "shall be vested in quarter sessions instead of the justices of the licensing district." The effect of this Amendment would be to leave the control of the licences in the hands of the justices as at present. In every case the justices had local knowledge of the district over which they exercised jurisdiction, and their work on the whole had been satisfactory. There had been no recommendation in either of the Reports of the Royal Commission in favour of transferring the work of the justices to quarter sessions. What was proposed in the Bill was to remove the control from an administrative body and hand it over to the quarter sessions, who, according to the wording of the Act, were to act as a legal tribunal. If this proposal were adopted the real control over licences would be very much diminished, and all the elements of discretion would disappear. It was not necessary for him to quote the cases upon the authority of which it was established that quarter sessions now acted as a Court of Appeal. The justices were not a Court at all, and it was a very grave question of principle whether the control of licensing should be handed over from an administrative body to a Court of Law. There was an Amendment further down on the Paper which provided that quarter sessions should act as an administrative body, but it did not appear to be absolutely necessary that the Court of quarter sessions should be substituted for the licensing justices at all. He was aware that, inasmuch as the area of subscription to the compensation fund was considered to be at least of a size commensurate with the quarter sessions jurisdiction, it was thought, therefore, that the Court of quarter sessions should be the controlling authority and not the licensing justices, whose area of subscription would be very much smaller. That difficulty could very easily be met. The Court of quarter sessions might easily allot the amount of money to be used as compensation within the area of the particular justices' brewster sessions, and it was not necessary to transfer the whole of the licensing powers from the justices to quarter sessions. If quarter sessions had power of limiting the amount of compensation in any particular area it would be perfectly possible to leave the actual control of each licence to the licensing justices. He admitted that quarter sessions must be introduced if they were to have the area of quarter sessions as the area of subscription for the compensation fund. No doubt in certain cases the area over which the licensing justices had jurisdiction would be too small to provide adequate funds, but it was quite possible for the quarter sessions to determine what the proper amount was for each area of the licensing justices and allot that sum, and then the licensing justices should have jurisdiction in determining whether a licence should be discontinued or not. The proposal of the Government was to hand over the control of the licences from men who were thoroughly acquainted with the district to a body of gentlemen sitting at quarter sessions who were not, who could not know what were the particular requirements in the remote parts of the county, would be acting without the necessary local knowledge, and would be certain to discharge their duties less efficiently than would be done by the local justices. If the Government could not accept this Amendment in its present form, they might at least introduce words in order to leave unchecked the present jurisdiction of the licensing justices in their own area. If that were done, the Government would remove one of the most serious objections to the Bill, namely, that the justices who had hitherto done their work extremely well should not have withdrawn from them work which they had every reason to believe they would be able to continue to do thoroughly well. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, to leave out from the words last inserted to the word 'shall' in line 10."—(Mr. McKenna.)

Question proposed, "That the word' shall' stand part of the clause."


said the hon. Member desired to leave the decision in regard to the taking away of licences in the hands of the local justices. He had already anticipated the objection of the Government, which was that the authority which dealt with the compensation fund should be the authority to deal with the licences to be refused. The hon. Member urged that a certain amount of money should be allotted to each brewster sessions' area to compensate licence-holders in cases where licences were refused on the ground of public policy. He submitted that that course would not be at all reasonable or desirable. It would not work in practice. There would be some brewster sessions' areas where no, or a very small number of, reductions would be made; there would be others where the number would be considerable. The result would be very unequal distribution of the benefits of the Bill. Therefore, he thought it would be far better that the trust should be vested in quarter sessions, and that they should be the authority. He believed there would be a much more even distribution in that way of the reduction of licences all over the county.


said that, apart from the objections which had been so forcibly urged by his hon. friend, quarter sessions were a most unfortunate body to commit this jurisdiction to, because, since 1888, quarter sessions had not been an administrative body at all. Although technically, as had been pointed out, this was a judicial duty, still the matter was an administrative one. He asked the Home Secretary what staff quarter sessions had at the present moment in order to carry out these duties. Since 1888 their staff had consisted of the clerk of the peace and perhaps an officer to maintain order in Court when quarter sessions were sitting. Therefore, one objection, in addition to those already stated by the mover of the Amendment, he had to the proposal in the Bill was that quarter sessions would be compelled to take up administrative duties and appoint an administrative staff. That was a new venture and one which he ventured to think was most objectionable.

MR. BRIGG (Yorkshire, W.R., Keighley)

said the machinery of quarter sessions had entirely gone out of use for collecting and distributing money in the way proposed in the Bill. The West Riding Sessions, with which he was most intimately associated, had passed a resolution to the effect that they did not see that they could possibly make use of the machinery now provided for this purpose and suggested that the county council was the proper body to be called upon to collect the money, while they themselves would deal, under the Bill, with the money so gathered. In order to perform the duties now to be placed upon them, it would be necessary to appoint a number of officials. He had an Amendment on the Paper that these duties should be carried out by the joint committee. He was sure that the quarter sessions could not deal with the work proposed to be committed to them with the staff they now had.

MR. CRIPPS (Lancashire, Stretford)

asked, on a point of order, if it would be open to the Committee on subsequent Amendments to discuss whether quarter sessions, or some other body, were to be the authority.


The point raised by this Amendment is that the authority is to remain as it is now. If the House does not think so, it is still open to the House to suggest any other authority —the standing joint committee, a committee of quarter sessions, or quarter sessions themselves. This will not affect the further Amendments.


said the present body was peculiarly unsuitable to be the authority on account of the area in which they acted being so small. That had been the great difficulty in carrying out any effective scheme of licensing reform. They could not carry out any effective scheme in a small area. In the county with which he was associated they did try to-carry out a scheme of temperance reform, and they could have done it over the county at large, but they found they could not do it by dealing only with district areas. In order to carry out this Bill effectively, it was necessary to have a county scheme so that the whole county might be properly dealt with. He thought the Bill did not give sufficient power to> the county authority. They ought to give the county authority, as against the smaller authority, power to do something definite in order to carry out a scheme which would do the best for temperance reform. It was important to have suitable administrative areas in which the magistrates might effectively carry out temperance reform.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 250; Noes, 182. (Division List No. 201.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Burdett-Coutts, W. Dickson, Charles Scott,
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Butcher, John George Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.
Aird, Sir John Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A (Glasgow Digby, John K. D. Wingfield
Anson, Sir William Reynell Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Arkwright, John Stanhope Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon
Arrol, Sir William Cayzer, Sir Charles William Doogan, P. C.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Doughty, George
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Chamberlain, Rt Hn. JA (Worc. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers
Austin, Sir John Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton Doxford, Sir William Theodore
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin
Bailey, James (Walworth) Chapman, Edward Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart
Bain, Colonel James Robert Charrington, Spencer Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton
Baird, John George Alexander Clive, Captain Percy A. Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W)
Balcarres, Lord Coates, Edward Feetham Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r
Baldwin, Alfred Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r Coghill, Douglas Harry Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W(Leeds Cohen, Benjamin Louis Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C. R. Fisher, William Hayes
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Fison, Frederick William
Bartley, Sir George C. T. Cox, Irwin Edward Bain bridge FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim, S. Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Crean, Eugene Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Bignold, Arthur Cripps, Charles Alfred Flower, Sir Ernest
Bill, Charles Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Forster, Henry William
Blundell, Colonel Henry Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Foster. Philip S.(Warwick, S.W.
Bond, Edward Cubitt, Hon. Henry Galloway, William Johnson
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Dalkeith, Earl of Gardner, Ernest
Bowles, Lt.-Col. HF (Middlesex Dalrymple, Sir Charles Garfit, William
Bowles, T. Gibbon (King's Lynn Davenport, William Bromley Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham Gordon, Hn. J.E.(Elgin & Nairn
Brotherton, Edward Allen Dickinson, Robert Edmond Gordon, Maj Evans(T'r H'mlets
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon M'Fadden, Edward Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Goulding, Edward Alfred M'Iver, Sir Lewis (EdinburghW Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Graham, Henry Robert M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury) M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.) Majendie, James A. H. Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Grenfell, William Henry Manners, Lord Cecil Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Gretton, John Martin, Richard Biddulph Samuel, Sir Harry S.(Limehouse
Greville, Hon. Ronald Massey-Mainwaring, Hn W. F. Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Groves, James Grimble Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H.E. (Wigt'n Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Gunter, Sir Robert Maxwell, W.J.H (Dumfriesshire Sharpe, William Edward T.
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Melville, Beresford Valentine Shaw-Stewart, Sir H (Renfrew)
Hamilton, Marq of(L'nd'nderry Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Hardy, Laurence (Kent Ashford Mildmay, Francis Bingham Simeon, Sir Barrington
Hare, Thomas Leigh Milvain, Thomas Smith, H.C(North'mb, Tyneside
Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th) Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Spear, John Ward
Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset)
Hay, Hon. Claude George Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.
Heath, James (Staffords. N.W. Moore, William Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Heaton, John Henniker Moran, David J (Walthamstow Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Helder, Augustus Morpeth, Viscount Stock, James Henry
Hickman, Sir Alfred Morrell, George Herbert Stone, Sir Benjamin
Hoare, Sir Samuel Morrison, James Archibald Stroyan, John
Hobhouse, Rt Hn H(Somers't, E Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Talbot, Rt. Hn. J G (Oxf'd Univ.
Hogg, Lindsay Mount, William Arthur Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Thorburn, Sir Walter
Horner, Frederick William Myers, William Henry Tollemache, Henry James
Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Newdegate, Francis A. N. Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Hoult, Joseph Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Houston, Robert Paterson Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Tuff, Charles
Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Valentia, Viscount
Hudson, George Bickersteth Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H (Sheffield
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred Pemberton, John S. G. Walker, Col. William Hall
Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. Percy, Earl Warde, Colonel C. E.
Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh Pierpoint, Robert Webb, Colonel William George
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Pilkington, Colonel Richard Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton)
Kerr, John Platt-Higgins, Frederick Welby, Sir Charles G E.(Notts.)
Kimber, Henry Plummer, Walter R. Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Whiteley, H.(Ashton-und. Lyne
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R. Pretyman, Ernest George Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Lee, Arthur H.(Hants.Fareham Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Purvis, Robert Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Llewellyn, Evan Henry Pym, C. Guy Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Rankin, Sir James Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)
Long, Col Charles W. (Evesham Ratcliff, R. F. Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S Reid, James (Greenock) Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Lonsdale, John Brownlee Remnant, James Farquharson Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Lowe, Francis William Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale) Renwick, George Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Richards, Henry Charles Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green Young, Samuel
Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Younger, William
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Macdona, John Cumming Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir
MacIver, David (Liverpool) Robinson, Brooke Alexander Acland-Hood
Maconochie, A. W. Rolleston, Sir John F. L. and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Black, Alexander William Cameron, Robert
Ainsworth, John Stirling Blake, Edward Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.
Allen, Charles P. Boland, John Channing, Francis Allston
Ashton, Thomas Gair Brigg, John Churchill, Winston Spencer
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Broadhurst, Henry Condon, Thomas Joseph
Atherley-Jones, L. Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)
Barlow, John Emmott Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)
Barran, Rowland Hirst Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Cremer, William Randal
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Burt, Thomas Crombie, John William
Bell, Richard Buxton, Sydney Charles Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)
Benn, John Williams Caldwell, James Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan Kilbride, Denis Roche, John
Delany, William Langley, Batty Rose, Charles Day
Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galway Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Runciman, Walter
Dilke, Rt. Hon, Sir Charles Layland-Barratt, Francis Russell, T. W.
Dobbie, Joseph Leese, Sir Joseph F.( Accrington Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel
Donelan, Captain A. Leigh, Sir Joseph Schwann, Charles E.
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark Leng, Sir John Seely, Maj. JEB (Isle of Wight
Duncan, J. Hastings Levy, Maurice Shackleton, David James
Dunn, Sir William Lewis, John Herbert Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Edwards, Frank Lloyd-George, David Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Elibank, Master of Lough, Thomas Shipman, Dr. John G.
Ellice, Capt. EC (S. Andra's Bghs Lundon, W. Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Lyell, Charles Henry Slack, John Bamford
Ellis, John Edward (Notts) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Sloan, Thomas Henry
Emmott, Alfred MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas MacVeagh, Jeremiah Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) M'Crae, George Stevenson, Francis S.
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Mansfield, Horace Rendall Strachey, Sir Edward
Fenwick, Charles Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Sullivan, Donal
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Markham, Arthur Basil Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Mitchell, Edw.(Fermanagh, N.) Tennant, Harold John
Fuller, J. M. F. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Furness, Sir Christopher Moulton, John Fletcher Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. Murphy, John Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Goddard, Daniel Ford Newnes, Sir George Thomas, J. A (Glamorgan, Gower
Grant, Corrie Norton, Capt. Cecil William Tomkinson, James
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) Nussey, Thomas Willans Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Griffith, Ellis J. O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid Ure, Alexander
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Wallace, Robert
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Walton, John Lawson (Leeds S.)
Hain, Edward O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N. Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale O'Malley, William Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Harcourt, Rt Hn Sir W (Monm'th O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Harwood, George Parrott, William White, George (Norfolk)
Hayden, John Patrick Partington, Oswald White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D. Paulton, James Mellor Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Philipps, John Wynford Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Power, Patrick Joseph Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Higham, John Sharpe Price, Robert John Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)
Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) Rea, Russell Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)
Hope, John Deans (Fife, West Reckitt, Harold James Wilson, Henry J. (York. W.R.)
Horniman, Frederick John Reddy, M. Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk Reid. Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries Wood, James
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Rickett, J. Compton Woodhouse, Sir J.T. (Huddersf'd
Jacoby, James Alfred Rigg, Richard Yoxall, James Henry
Johnson, John (Gateshead) Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Joicey, Sir James Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Jordan, Jeremiah Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) M'Kenna and Mr. Lambert.
Joyce, Michael Robson, William Snowdon

said he wished to move an Amendment which concerned the county areas, and which he hoped would be taken into consideration by the Solicitor-General and the Home Secretary. He was not going to traverse the ground already gone over as to the disqualifications of the quarter sessions, but he submitted that the alternative he suggested was better than the one contained in the Bill as it now stood. As the Committee were aware, the joint police committee was elected—half by the quarter sessions, and half by the county council. It was a pretty well-known fact that in England and Wales the very best magistrates were selected to sit on the joint police committee; and he believed that most of the county council members of that committee were themselves magistrates. The joint police committee had the control of the police, and he submitted that it would be a most convenient thing that that committee should have control of the licences throughout the county areas. He had reason to believe that his Amendment commended itself to the whole body of moderate men on both sides of the House. The Amendment, he thought, would do something to remove the objection to this part of the Bill which transferred the licensing authority from the local justices to the quarter session.s The quarter sessions were often a very large body which had necessarily no local knowledge of many parts of the county, and it was admitted that the justices were chosen very much at haphazard by the Lord Chancellor. He was told that members of quarter sessions had been whipped up often on both sides when the granting or refusal of a particular licence was coming up for decision. All these difficulties would be removed by his Amendment. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, after the word 'shall' to insert the words 'in county areas.'"—(Mr. Ellis Griffith.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."


said that there were many reasons for retaining the jurisdiction proposed in the Bill. They had framed the Bill so as to interfere as little as possible with the existing procedure. Every alteration was solely due to the necessity of having a larger compensation area. In cases where, for non-requirement or for other reasons, the brewster sessions came to the conclusion that a licence ought to be taken away, they were, under the Bill, to make an order referring the question to the quarter sessions with their report; whereas, under the old system the licence-holder had a direct appeal to quarter sessions. That was the only difference. The reason why the matter had not been allowed to remain exactly as it was, was that the area of compensation furnished by the ordinary licensing district of brewster sessions would be too small. That being so, was it not better to keep the quarter sessions and the form of procedure as nearly as possible as it was, than to set

up a new tribunal which would have jurisdiction only in cases where compensation was concerned. In other words, they would have in every county, the quarter sessions seized of one part of this appellant jurisdiction, and the standing committee seized of another part of it. There was another question raised by this proposal, namely, the question of admitting a representative element in relation to the administration of the compensation fund. If the fund were a public fund subscribed out of the rates, or was in any way a county charge, it might be argued that there ought to be representation; but, of course, this fund was no such thing. It was a charge on one particular trade to enable them to insure against their licences being refused. He had always understood that the objection to this particular clause was that it interfered with the justices; but justices would be interfered with more by setting up a standing joint committee than by retaining quarter sessions. The Amendment, as far as he understood it, would also change what was proposed as regarded county boroughs, because it would take away from the whole body of the justices there the right to administer the fund in their own districts. That would be a great pity. In giving that power to justices in county boroughs he thought the Government were setting up the proper tribunal for administering this fund; and the reason why county boroughs were treated in this way was because they provided a sufficient compensation area. He was, therefore, unable to accept the Amendment.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 178; Noes, 265. (Division List No. 202).

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Benn, John Williams Burt, Thomas
Ainsworth, John Stirling Black, Alexander William Buxton, Sydney Charles
Allen, Charles P. Blake, Edward Caldwell, James
Ashton, Thomas Gair Boland, John Cameron, Robert
Asquith. Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Brigg, John Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.
Aherley-Jones, L. Broadhurst, Henry Cawley, Frederick
Barlow, John Emmott Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Channing, Francis Allston
Barran, Rowland Hirst Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Condon, Thomas Joseph
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)
Bell, Richard
Cremer, William Randal Joyce, Michael Rose, Charles Day
Crombie, John William Lambert, George Runciman, Walter
Crooks, William Langley, Batty Russell, T. W.
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Layland-Barrett, Francis Schwann, Charles E.
Davies,M. Vaughan (Cardigan Leese,Sir Joseph F(Accrington Seely,Maj. JEB (Isle of Wight)
Delany, William Leigh, Sir Joseph Shackleton, David Jame
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Leng, Sir John Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Levy, Maurice Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Dobbie, Joseph Lewis, John Herbert Shipman, Dr. John G.
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Lloyd-George, David Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Duncan, J. Hastings Lough, Thomas Slack, John Bamford
Dunn, Sir William Lundon, W. Sloan, Thomas Henry
Edwards, Frank Lyell, Charles Henry Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Elibank, Master of Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Ellice, CaptEC(S Andrw's Bghs MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Stevenson, Francis S.
Emmott, Alfred M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Strachey, Sir Edward
Esmonde, Sir Thomas M'Crae, George Sullivan, Donal
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone M'Kenna, Reginald Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Mansfield, Horace Rendall Tennant, Harold John
Fenwick, Charles Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Markham, Arthur Basil Thomas,Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Mitchell,Edw.(Fermanagh, N.) Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Flavin, Michael Joseph Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen( Thomas,JA (Glamorgan Gower
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Morpeth, Viscount Tomkinson, James
Fuller, J. M. F. Moulton, John Fletcher Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Furness, Sir Christopher Newnes, Sir George Ure, Alexander
Gladstone,Rt Hn. Herbert J. Norton, Capt. Cecil William Wallace, Robert
Goddard, Daniel Ford Nussey, Thomas Willans Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Grant, Corrie O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Grey,Rt, Hn. Sir E. (Berwick O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill O'Kelly,James (Roscommon, N Wason,John Cathcart (Orkney)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton O'Malley, William White, George (Norfolk)
Hain, Edward O'Shaughnessy, P. J. White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale Parrott, William Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Harcourt, RtHnSir W (Monm'th Partington, Oswald Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Harwood, George Paulton, James Mellor Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D. Philipps, John Wynford Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)
Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. Price, Robert John Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk Mid.)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Rea, Russell Wilson, Henry J. (York. W.R.)
Higham, John Sharpe Reckitt, Harold James Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Hobhouse, C.E.H. (Bristol, E.) Reddy, M. Wood, James
Hobhouse,RtHnH. (Somers't,E Reid,Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries Woodhouse, SirJT (Huddersf'd
Horniman, Frederick John Rickett, J. Compton Yoxall, James Henry
Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. Rigg, Richard
Jacoby, James Alfred Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Johnson, John (Gateshead) Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Joicey, Sir James Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Ellis Griffith and Mr.
Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea Robson, William Snowdon Dalziel.
Jordan Jeremiah Roche, John
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds Butcher, John George
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Banbury, Sir Frederick George Campbell,Rt.Hn.JA (Gasgow)
Aird, Sir John Barry,Sir Francis T. (Windsor) Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin Cautley, Henry Strother
Arkwright, John Stanhope Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire
Arrol, Sir William Bignold, Arthur Cayzer, Sir Charles William
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Bill, Charles Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt. Hn.SirH. Blundell, Colonel Henry Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)
Austin, Sir John Bond, Edward Chamberlain, RtHn J.A. (Worc.
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton
Bailey, James (Walworth) Bousfield, William Robert Chapman, Edward
Bain, Colonel James Robert Bowles,Lt.-Col.H.F (Middlesex Charrington, Spencer
Churchill, Winston Spencer
Baird, John George Alexander Bowles,T.Gibson (King'sLynn Clive, Captain Percy A.
Balcarres, Lord Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Coates, Edward Feetham
Baldwin, Alfred Brotherton, Edward Allen Cochrane,Hon. Thos. H. A. E
Balfour,Rt. Hn. A. J.(Manch'r Burdett-Coutts, W. Coddington, Sir William
Coghill, Douglas Harry Horner, Frederick William Purvis, Robert
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Pym, C. Guy
Colomb, Rt. Hn. Sir John C. R. Hoult, Joseph Rankin, Sir James
Colston, Chas, Edw. H. Athole Houston, Robert Paterson Ratcliff, R. F.
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham Reid, James (Greenock)
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Remnant, James Farquharson
Crean, Eugene Hudson, George Bickersteth Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Cripps, Charles Alfred Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred Renwick, George
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H. Richards, Henry Charles
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh) Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Dalkeith, Earl of Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Kerr, John Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Davenport, William Bromley Kimber, Henry Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham King, Sir Henry Seymour Robinson, Brooke
Denny, Colonel Laurie, Lieut.-General Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Dickinson, Robert Edmond Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow' Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Dickson, Charles Scott Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N.R. Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham Round, Rt. Hon. James
Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C. Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Llewellyn, Evan Henry Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Doogan, P. C. Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Doughty, George Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol,S) Samuel, Sir Harry S.(Limehouse
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Lonsdale, John Brownlee Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Lowe, Francis William Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Duke, Henry Edward Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale) Sharpe, William Edward T.
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Loyd, Archie Kirkman Shaw-Stewart, Sir H.(Renfrew)
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Lucas Reginald J. (Portsmouth) Simeon, Sir Barrington
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Smith HC. (North'mb. Tyneside
Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) Macdona, John dimming Spear, John Ward
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r MacIver, David (Liverpool) Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Maconochie, A. W. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)
Pinch, Rt. Hon. George H. M'Fadden, Edward Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Fisher, William Hayes M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Stock, James Henry
Fison, Frederick William M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Stone, Sir Benjamin
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose Manners, Lord Cecil Stroyan, John
Fitzroy,Hn. Edward Algernon Martin, Richard Biddulph Talbot Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F. Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Flower, Sir Ernest Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H.E. (Wigt'n Thorburn, Sir Walter
Forster, Henry William Maxwell, W. T.H (Dumfriesshire Tollemache, Henry James
Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W. Melville, Beresford Valentine Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Galloway, William Johnson Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Tritton, Charles Ernest
Gardner, Ernest Mildmay, Francis Bingham Tuff, Charles
Garfit, William Milvain, Thomas Tuffnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Valentia, Viscount
Gordon, Hn. J E (Elgin & Nairn) Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.) Vincent, Col. Sir C. E H (Sheffield
Gordon, Maj Evans (T'r H'mlets Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Moore, William
Goulding, Edward Alfred Morgan David J. (Walthamstow Walker, Col. William Hall
Graham, Henry Robert Morrell, George Herbert Warde, Colonel C. E.
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Morrison, James Archibald Webb, Colonel William George
Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.) Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton
Grenfell, William Henry Mount, William Arthur- Welby, Sir Chas. G.E. (Notts.)
Greville, Hon. Ronald Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Groves, James Grimble Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne
Gunter, Sir Robert Myers, William Henry Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset
Hall, Edward Marshall Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks.)
Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Hare, Thomas Leigh O'Dowd, John Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. Dulwich) Peel Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Hay, Hon. Claude George Pemberton, John S. G. Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Heath, James (Staffords. N.W. Percy, Earl Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Heaton, John Henniker Pierpoint, Robert Young, Samuel
Helder, Augustus Pilkington, Colonel Richard Younger William
Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.) Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Hickman, Sir Alfred Plummer, Walter R.
Hoare, Sir Samuel Powell, Sir Francis Sharpe TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Hogg, Lindsay Pretyman, Ernest George Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes
MR. HERBERT ROBERTS (Denbighshire, W.)

said the object of the Amendment he now proposed to move was to secure that no change in the machinery with regard to licensing administration should take place except on the condition that quarter sessions decided to levy the annual charge referred to in Sub-section 1, Clause 3, of the Bill. The root principle of this Bill was to attempt to reduce licences throughout the country, but that, in the view of the Government, could not be adequately or justly done without payment of compensation. The Government had made it clear that there would have been no need for any change in regard to licensing jurisdiction had it not been necessary to have a compensation fund of this character for the benefit of those who lost their licences on the sole ground of non-requirement. The Government had more 'than once asserted that it was not their desire to interfere in any way with the jurisdiction of the local licensing justices, but that if it was absolutely necessary to set up a compensation fund then it was necessary for quarter sessions to decide the question of non-renewals on the ground of non-necessity. That being so, what possible ground could there be for any interference with the present powers of jurisdiction of the local justices unless quarter sessions decided to set up a compensation fund? It was admitted that there was an inconvenience with regard to the double jurisdiction and there were undoubtedly serious disadvantages connected with it. He urged this Amendment on the practical ground that above all things it was desirable that every kind of stimulus should be provided for uniformity of action throughout the country in regard to the setting up of this fund. It was perfectly plain that unless every quarter sessions decided to levy the fund the fund would be hopelessly inadequate to bring about any reduction of licences throughout the country. On these grounds he begged to move.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, after the word 'shall,' to insert the words ' in the event of quarter sessions deciding to impose in respect of all on-licences within their area the charges referred to in Section 3, Sub-section (1), of the Act.'"—(Mr. Herbert Roberts.)

Question proposed, "That those words, be there inserted."


said with regard to this Amendment he had nothing to add to what he had already said on a previous Amendment of a similar character. He asked what reason was there to suppose that quarter sessions would refuse to carry out their duty when this Bill was passed, any more than they refused to carry it out now. The whole argument in favour of this Amendment appeared to be that they were to assume that quarter sessions, when this Bill was passed, would refuse to administer the law. Did not the hon. Member who moved the Amendment see that if quarter sessions did not set up a compensation fund what it involved? Quarter sessions would at some time have to say, "We will not do our duty in the renewal of licences." They could not segregate the two cases. Directly quarter sessions refused to set up a compensation fund they abrogated all their functions under the Bill. If the Amendment were passed it would be necessary to go further and abolish quarter sessions altogether, because they might decide to set up the fund, but charge the minimum instead of the maximum rates, and thus defeat the purpose of the fund. It they were wicked enough to do the one thing they were bad enough to do the-other. There was really no ground for treating quarter sessions in this way, they had always transacted their business properly, and there was no reason to suppose that they would adopt a different course in the future.

MR. SHACKLETON (Lancashire, Clitheroe)

pointed out that, inasmuch as the municipal authorities were losing their rights, there would be no reduction of licences whatever if the quarter sessions refused to act. It was only reasonable that this provision should be made compulsory. The local justices were most in touch with local opinion, but there was nothing in the Bill to give effect to the recommendation of both Reports of the Royal Commission that local opinion should be consulted. The Commission recommended that the licensing authority should be a combination of the justices and elected persons from the town council, but there was no provision of that kind in the Bill. As the powers of the borough justices were to be taken away, the county justices ought to be compelled to do something on the recommendation of the local magistrates. His experience as a borough magistrate had not been such as to satisfy him that the county justices would take the necessary steps without pressure. He hoped, therefore, the Government would not refuse the concession asked for by this Amendment.

MR. ASQUITH (Fifeshire, E.)

said the conditions under which the discussion was being carried on did not admit of anything like free or adequate debate, but the matter raised by the present Amendment was of so much urgency, and the grounds on which the hon. Member had rested his case were so strong, that he thought the Government might give it a little more consideration. The proposal of the Amendment was that the jurisdiction at present possessed by the licensing justices should be retained by them unless quarter sessions, to which that jurisdiction was by this Bill to be transferred, resolved to set up this fund. He entirely demurred to the suggestion of the Solicitor-General that the quarter sessions would be guilty of any neglect of duty if they refused to raise the fund. In some counties it was in the highest degree probable that quarter sessions would not think it worth while to do so. In consequence of the small-ness of the area involved the fund would be wholly inadequate to effect any substantial reduction of licences, and quarter sessions might very reasonably say that they would have nothing whatever to do with the matter. What would be the position then? The power of the licensing justices

would have been taken away, and in its place a nugatory power given to quarter sessions; therefore in those counties the whole thing would be hung up, and there would be no authority in a position to exercise a jurisdiction which everybody admitted to be necessary. A. more reasonable Amendment had not, m his opinion, been proposed in the whole course of the discussion.


said the argument of the right hon. and learned Gentleman would be all very well if the local authorities had an absolute power to refuse licences, but they had no such power, as the last word already lay with quarter sessions. He regretted that the right hon. Gentleman should have said that quarter sessions would be able to ignore the Bill. But if any quarter sessions were in that frame of mind, if this Amendment were carried how many licences were they likely to do away with on the appeal of the local justices? The same matters would be operative with them, and would render the provision nugatory.

MR. DISRAELI (Cheshire, Altrincham)

did not believe the quarter sessions of a single English county would refuse to take this matter up and act. Quarter sessions throughout the country had long desired to do something in the way of the reduction of licences, but they had not possessed the power. They were now to have the power, and it was not likely that any body of English gentlemen would refuse to exercise it.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 176; Noes, 267. (Division List No. 203.)

Ainsworth, John Stirling Boland, John Cameron, Robert
Allen, Charles P. Brigg, John Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.
Ashton, Thomas Gair Broadhurst, Henry Cawley, Frederick
Atherley-Jones, L. Brown, George M.(Edinburgh) Channing, Francis Allston
Barlow, John Emmott Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Condon, Thomas Joseph
Barran, Rowland Hirst Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)
Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B. Burt, Thomas Cremer, William Randal
Benn, John Williams Buxton, Sydney Charles Crombie, John William
Black, Alexander William Caldwell, James Crooks, William
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Jordan, Jeremiah Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Dalziel, James Henry Joyce, Michael Robson, William Snowdon
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Kitson, Sir James Roche, John
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Rose, Charles Day
Delany, William Lambert, George Runciman, Walter
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Calway Langley, Batty Russell, T. W.
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Dobbie, Joseph Layland-Barratt, Francis Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Doogan, P. C. Leese SirJoseph F.(Accrington Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Leigh, Sir Joseph Sheehy, David
Duncan, J. Hastings Long, Sir John Shipman, Dr. John G.
Dunn, Sir William Levy, Maurice Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Lewis, John Herbert Slack, John Bamford
Edwards, Frank Lloyd-George, David Sloan, Thomas Henry
Elibank, Master of Lough, Thomas Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Ellice, Capt EC (S. Andrw's Bghs Lundon, W. Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) Lyell, Charles Henry Spear, John Ward
Emmott, Alfred Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Esmonde, Sir Thomas MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Stevenson, Francis S.
Evans, Sir Francis H.(Maidstone MacVeagh, Jeremiah Strachey, Sir Edward
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Sullivan, Donal
Fenwick, Charles M'Crae, George Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) M'Kenna, Reginald Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Mansfield, Horace Rendall Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Markham, Arthur Basil Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower
Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.) Tillet, Louis John
Fuller, J. M. F. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Tomkinson, James
Furness, Sir Christopher Moss, Samuel Toulmin, George
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Moulton, John Fletcher Trevelyan, Charles Philip
Goddard, Daniel Ford Murphy John Ure, Alexander
Grant, Corrie Norton, Capt. Cecil William Wallace, Robert
Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E.( Berwick) Nussey, Thomas Willans Walton, JohnLawson (Leeds, S.)
Griffith, Ellis T. O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Hain, Edward O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale O'Mulley, William White, George (Norfolk)
Harcourt, Rt Hn Sir W (Monm'th O'Shaughnessy, P. J. White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Harwood, George Parrott, William Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Partington, Oswald Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Paulton, James Mellor Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Perks, Robert William Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Higham, John Sharpe Philipps, John Wynford Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) Price, Robert John Wood, Tames
Horniman, Frederick John Rea, Russell Woodhouse Sir J.T (Hudd'rsfi'd
Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. Reckitt, Harold James Yoxall, James Henry
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Reddy, M.
Jacoby, James Alfred Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Johnson, John (Gateshead) Rickett, J. Compton Mr. Herbert Roberts and
Joicey, Sir James Rigg, Richard Mr. Shackleton.
Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Burdett-Coutts, W.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Banbury, Sir Frederick George Butcher, John George
Aird, Sir John Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor) Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A.(Glasgow
Anson, Sir William Reynell Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Cautley, Henry Strother
Arrol, Sir William Bignold, Arthur Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Bill, Charles Cayzer, Sir Charles William
Aubrey-Fletcher Rt. Hon. Sir H Blundell, Colonel Henry Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)
Austin, Sir John Bond, Edward Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A.(Worc.
Bailey, James (Walworth) Bousfield, William Robert Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton
Bain, Colonel James Robert Bowles, Lt. Col. H.F.(Middlesex Chapman, Edward
Baird, John George Alexander Charrington, Spencer
Balcarres, Lord Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn Churchill, Winston Spencer
Baldwin, Alfred Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Clare, Octavius Leigh
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r Brotherton, Edward Allen Clive, Captain Percy A.
Bull, William James Coates, Edward Feetham
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Helder, Augustus O'Brien, P. J.(Tipperary, N.)
Coddington, Sir William Henderson, Sir A.(Stafford, W.) Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Hickman, Sir Alfred Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hoare, Sir Samuel Percy, Earl
Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C.R. Hobhouse, Rt. Hn H(Somers't, E Pierpoint, Robert
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Hogg, Lindsay Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Plummer, Walter R.
Craig. Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.) Horner, Frederick William Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Crean, Eugene Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Pretyman, Ernest George
Cripps, Charles Alfred Hoult, Joseph Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Houston, Robert Paterson Purvis, Robert
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham Pym, C. Guy
Dalkeith, Earl of Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Rankin, Sir James
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hudson, George Bickersteth Ratcliff, R. F.
Davenport, W. Bromley- Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred Reid, James (Greenock)
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Remnant, James Farquharson
Dickinson, Robert Edmond Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Dickson, Charles Scott Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Renwick, George
Dimsdale, Rt.Hn. Sir Joseph C Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T.(Denbigh) Richards, Henry Charles
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. Ridley, S. Forde (BethnalGreen
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Kerr, John Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Kimber, Henry Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Doughty, George King, Sir Henry Seymour Robinson, Brooke
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Knowles, Sir Lees Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Laurie, Lieut.-General Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Duke, Henry Edward Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R Round, Rt. Hon. James
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart Lee, Arthur H (Hants. Fareham Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Faber, Edmund B.(Hants, W.) Llewellyn, Evan Henry Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Fergusson Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Long Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) Samuel SirHarry S.(Limehouse
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Long Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Fisher, William Hayes Lonsdale, John Brownlee Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Fison, Frederick William Lowe, Francis William Seton-Karr, Sir Henry
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Snarpe, William Edward T.
Fitzroy, Hon. Ed ward Algernon Loyd, Archie Kirkman Shaw-Stewart, Sir H.(Renfrew)
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Flavin, Michael Joseph Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Simeon, Sir Barrington
Flower, Sir Ernest Macdona, John dimming Smith, HC(North'mb Tyneside
Forster, Henry William Maconochie, A. W. Stanley, Ed ward Jas. (Somerset)
Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S.W. M'Fadden, Edward Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs
Galloway, William Johnson M"Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Gardner, Ernest M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Garfit, William Majendie, James A. H. Stock, James Henry
Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. Manners, Lord Cecil Stone, Sir Benjamin
Gordon, Hn. J.E.(Elgin & Nairn) Martin, Richard Biddulph Stroyan, John
Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r H'mlets Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir H.E(Wigt'n Talbot Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Maxwell, W.J.H(Dumfriesshire Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Goulding, Edward Alfred Melville, Beresford Valentine Thorburn, Sir Walter
Graham, Henry Robert Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Tollemache, Henry James
Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury) Mildmay, Francis Bingham Tomlinson. Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs) Milvain, Thomas Tritton, Charles Ernest
Grenfell, William Henry Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Tuff, Charles
Gretton, John Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Valentia, Viscount
Greville, Hon. Ronald Moore, William Vincent, Col. Sir C. EH(Sheffield
Groves, James Grimble Morgan David J.(Walthamstow Walker, Col. William Hall
Gunter, Sir Robert Morpeth, Viscount Warde, Colonel C. E.
Hall, Edward Marshall Morrell, George Herbert Webb, Colonel William George
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Morrison, James Archibald Welby, Lt.Col. C.E.(Taunton
Hambro, Charles Eric Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Welby, Sir Charles G.E. (Notts.
Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry Mount, William Arthur Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Hardy Laurence (Kent, Ahford) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne
Hare, Thomas Leigh Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th Myers, William Henry Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Harris Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) Newdegate, Francis A. N. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Hay, Hon. Claude George Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.) Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E.R.)
Heath, James(Staffords., N. W.) Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks)
Heaton, John Henniker O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Wrightson, Sir Thomas Young, Samuel and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George Younger, William
MR. J. H. LEWIS (Flint Boroughs)

said the object of his Amendment was to give quarter sessions the option of remaining outside the scope of the Act altogether, and that was a totally different question to the one which had just been decided. His proposal would enable quarter sessions, in cases where they considered it desirable, to wait in order that they might see how the Act operated in other counties. They all knew that at the commencement of an Act of this kind administrative mistakes were constantly made, and the various authorities gained by each other's experience. He thought it was desirable that there should be a certain amount of local option. Some countries were much more highly licensed than others, and some had not such a large proportion of licences. What they were doing by this Bill was to absolutely close every possible door by which any sort of different administration could be carried out as an experiment in different districts in the future. Surely the experience of their Colonies, and of Norway, Sweden, and the United States, supplied them with a sufficient number of precedents to work upon. They were by this measure making any sort of licensing reforms impossible except upon the lines suggested by this Bill. He particularly asked that in the Welsh counties they should have in the future some chance of settling this question in their own way, and on their own lines. If Courts of quarter sessions in Wales, knowing the feelings of the Welsh people, should decide that it would be better to defer putting the Act into operation in order to see whether some better method could be found, which would promote temperance reform, he suggested that some liberty should be given to those Courts to adopt that course. The fact that there was no time limit in the Bill made an Amendment of this kind all the more necessary. Had there been a time limit they might have looked forward to some change of a beneficial character not altogether upon the lines of this Bill. He urged that the Government should give some measure of local option to the counties in-order that some of the counties might keep outside the sphere of this Bill, and thus give Parliament an opportunity of perhaps settling the question in a different way in the future. For the reasons he had given he hoped the Government would see their way to accept the Amendment he had proposed.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, after the word 'shall,' to insert the words, 'when quarter sessions so determine.'"—(Mr. J. H. Lewis.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."


said the object of the hon. Member's Amendment was to wait to see how the Bill operated in neighbouring counties; and he also desired that there should be a general local option in regard to the Act altogether. The Government thought the Bill was for the general benefit of the public and he saw no reason why the principle laid down should not apply all round. On these grounds he could not agree to the Amendment.


said that after his experience on the Licensing Bench he was quite certain that justices would object to the alteration proposed in the Bill. It would be entirely against the public interest and there would be considerable feeling on the part of many licensing justices against putting the Bill in operation. They should have the option as the Amendment proposed to remain on their present footing and not adopt the Bill. The Home Secretary has stated that the Bill was one to reduce licences and that that was a good thing. He admitted that was a good thing, but it certainly was not a more important section of licensing reform than some others. There were half-a-dozen objects of even greater importance than the mere reduction of licences, and, keen as he was himself for restricting the excessive use of liquor, he was certain that this was not a Bill which should be put in operation by a Bench that had the power of effecting reforms in the liquor traffic in other ways. This was a vicious Bill and the local justices should have the power of not adopting it.


said it was only fair that the opinion of the local justices should receive some attention in regard to a Bill of this sort, which they had to administer. The spirit of local option which the Amendment proposed to introduce into the Bill already obtained in regard to the Education Act. It was a spirit which had been found on the whole to make Acts of Parliament work fairly. Whether this Bill was good or bad was outside the question now before the Committee. The magistrate who disapproved of the measure would always be loth to administer it. Yet as a matter of fact Licensing Benches would have, after all, to put the Act into operation. That being so, some power of discrimination in this matter should be left to the licensing justices. Quarter sessions were supposed to know the conditions of a whole county over which they administered justice, and on the whole it was a fair contention that, knowing those conditions, they would he in a better position than the House to apply the Bill. For this reason the elasticity provided for by the Amendment should be put into the Bill.


regretted that the Government could not see their way to make a concession on this point, and all the more so because some of the counties were so extremely large that quarter sessions might reasonably consider that they could not take over the powers of the local justices which were given to them by this Bill, and that they would prefer to see how the experiment worked in other parts of the country. In his own county it was variously estimated that it would take between eighty and 100 years to get the number of licences down to the same level as in the adjoining county of Merioneth. In the course of the debate it had been mentioned that the average cost of a licence would be £800. He believed that was the figure given officially in a pamphlet written on behalf of the trade. Quarter sessions might reasonably flay: "We will see whether some better means of reducing licences cannot be got than this, and in the meantime we will collect experience from all parts of the country." If the right hon. Gentleman would not accept the Amendment he would be bound to press it to a division.

MR. JOHNSON (Gateshead)

said he believed it was desirable that local justices should have the option, in connection with this Bill, of waiting to get some experience before adopting it. He regretted that the Government had not accepted the Amendment. It appeared to him that the Government were not only determined to make no concessions whatever, but that this Bill was to be put through by sheer force, and that the smallest attempts on the Opposition side of the House to minimise its drastic effects were to be absolutely ignored. He hoped that some concessions which would be likely to make the Bill workable would be granted. Surely the local justices were the best able to judge whether the Bill should be put in operation or not. But it appeared to him no discretion was to be given, even to the Courts of quarter sessions, and that they must adopt and carry out the Bill at all hazards.


said his hon. friend was quite correct in appealing to the analogy of the Education Bill. The great mistake which was made in connection with the Education Bill, and which was having a disastrous effect all over the country at the present moment, was that the areas were too big for any single body to deal with. The Government had already acknowledged their mistake in that respect by adopting smaller areas under the Scotch Education Bill. In the Bill now before the Committee they proposed to have a body which would rest on the advice of officials. The Amendment proposed that power should be left to quarter sessions to divide their administrative areas into districts, and to delegate their duties in that way.

Mr. LAMBERT (Devonshire,) South Molton

said that, after all, they wanted to give local authorities some option as to what they should do, as they knew what they were fitted for. A protest was made in Devonshire against being saddled with the duties of the Education Act, and now the cost of administration had gone up enormously without any increased efficiency. Who was to pay for the increased staff consequent on the Licensing Bill? He was certain the ratepayers in his county would strongly object. The Government thought the county was a sort of divine area. A county could do no wrong, but anything less than a county area was hopeless. If a county was fitted to carry out the duties surely it was fitted to know whether it should carry them out or not. These were entirely novel proposals and he would ask the Government to give some elasticity to county bodies as to what they should put in force. Owing to the drastic proposals of the Government he did not know what this Bill really proposed to do. Supposing the county justices did not put the Bill in force, were there any compulsory powers provided to compel them to put it in force? He might be told that that

question would arise later on, but it might be wiped out by closure by compartments. The Amendment of his hon. friend was perfectly conciliatory, and if the Government were not proof against accepting any suggestion for the improvements of the Bill, which he was afraid they were, he hoped they would give a favourable ear to his hon. friend's proposal. If not, it would only be another case of the extravagant inefficiency caused by this scheme of the Government, which meant something like centralisation gone mad. If they were met with a blank refusal by the Government they could, of course, only support their opinion in the Division Lobby.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 116; Noes, 271. (Division List No. 204.)

Ainsworth, John Stirling Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Perks, Robert William
Allen, Charles P. Goddard, Daniel Ford Philipps, John Wynford
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) Price, Robert John
Barlow, John Emmott Griffith, Ellis J. Reddy, M.
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hain, Edward Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Rigg, Richard
Benn, John Williams Harcourt, Rt Hn Sir W (Monm'th Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Boland, John Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Roche, John
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Russell, T. W.
Burt, Thomas Henderson Arthur (Durham) Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Higham, John Sharpe Schwann, Charles E.
Caldwell, James Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) Shackleton, David James
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Cawley, Frederick Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Channing, Francis Allston Jacoby, James Alfred Shipman, Dr. John G.
Condon, Thomas Joseph Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Jordan, Jeremiah Sloan, Thomas Henry
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Joyce, Michael Soames. Arthur Wellesley
Cremer, William Randal Kitson, Sir James Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Lambert, George Strachey, Sir Edward
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Langley, Batty Sullivan, Donal
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan) Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.).
Delany, William Leigh, Sir Joseph Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)
Devlin, Charles Ramsay (Galway Levy, Maurice Thomas J A (Glamorgan Gower)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Lundon, W. Ure, Alexander
Dobbie, Joseph Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Wallace, Robert
Dunn, Sir William MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Elibank, Master of MacVeagh, Jeremiah Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney
Emmott, Alfred M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone Mappin, Sit Frederick Thorpe Williams, Osmond (Merioneth
Eve, Harry Trelawney Markham, Arthur Basil Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull, W.)
Fenwick, Charles Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.) Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Murphy, John Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Newnes, Sir George Wood, James
Flavin, Michael Joseph O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid) Woodhouse, Sir J.T. (Hudd'rsf'd
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry O'Shaughnessy, P. J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Fuller, J. M. F. Parrott, William Herbert Lewis and Mr.
Furness, Sir Christopher Partington, Oswald John Johnson.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Doxford, Sir William Theodore Knowles, Sir Lees
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Duke, Henry Edward Laurie, Lieut.-General
Aird, Sir John Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow
Anson, Sir William Reynell Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N.R.
Arrol, Sir William Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareh'm
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W. Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Austin, Sir John Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J. (Manc'r Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Bailey, James (Walworth) Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham
Bain, Colonel James Robert Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S
Baird, John George Alexander Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Balcarres, Lord Fisher, William Hayes Lowe, Francis William
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Fison, Frederick William Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds FitzGerald, Sir Bobert Penrose- Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) Flannery, Sir Fortescue Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Flower, Sir Ernest Macdona, John dimming
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Forster, Henry William MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Bignold, Arthur Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W Maconochie, A. W.
Bill, Charles Galloway, William Johnson M'Fadden, Edward
Blundell, Colonel Henry. Gardner, Ernest M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh)
Bond, Edward Garfit, William M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. Majendie, James A. H.
Bousfield, William Robert Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn Manners, Lord Cecil
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn) Gordon, Maj. Evans (T'r H'mlets Martin, Richard Biddulph
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.
Brotherton, Edward Allen Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Maxwell, Rt. Hn Sir H.E. (Wig'tn
Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.) Goulding, Edward Alfred Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.
Bull, William James Graham, Henry Robert Melville, Beresford Valentine
Burdett-Coutts, W. Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Butcher, John George Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.) Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A. (Glasgow) Grenfell, William Henry Milvain, Thomas
Carson, R. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Gretton, John Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Cautley, Henry Strother Greville, Hon. Ronald Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire) Groves, James Grimble Moore, William
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Gunter, Sir Robert Morgan, David J. (Walth'stow
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hall, Edward Marshall Morpeth, Viscount
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Morrell, George Herbert
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J.A. (Worc. Hambro, Charles Eric Morrison, James Archibald
Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton) Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Chapman, Edward Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd Mount, William Arthur
Charrington, Spencer Hare, Thomas Leigh Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute
Clare, Octavius Leigh Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)
Clive, Captain Percy A. Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath
Coates, Edward Feetham Hay, Hon. Claude George Myers, William Henry
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Heath, James (Staffords., N.W. Newdegate, Francis A. N.
Coddington, Sir William Heaton, John Henniker Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.
Coghill, Douglas Harry Helder, Augustus O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W. Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Colomb, Rt. Hn. Sir John C. R. Hickman, Sir Alfred Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. (Athole.) Hoare, Sir Samuel Percy, Earl
Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge Hobhouse, Rt. Hn. H (Somers't, E Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.) Hogg, Lindsay Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Crean, Eugene Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Plummer, Walter R.
Cripps, Charles Alfred Horner, Frederick William Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Pretyman, Ernest George
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Hoult, Joseph Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Dalkeith, Earl of Houston, Robert Paterson Purvis, Robert
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham Pym, C. Guy
Davenport, William Bromley- Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Rankin, Sir James
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham Hudson, George Bickersteth Ratcliff, R. F.
Denny, Colonel Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Reid, James (Greenock)
Dickinson, Robert Edmond Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred. Remnant, James Farquharson
Dickson, Charles Scott Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C. Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Renwick, George
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Richards, Henry Charles
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Doogan, P. C. kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. Kerr, John Roberts, Samuel Sheffield
Doughty, George kimber, Henry Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers king, Sir Henry Seymour Robinson, Brooke
Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart Welby, Sir Charles G. G. (Notts.
Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Stock, James Henry Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne
Round, Rt. Hon. James Stone, Sir Benjamin Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Stroyan, John Williams, Colonel B. (Dorset)
Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)
Samuel, Sir Harry S(Limehouse Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ. Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Thorburn, Sir Walter Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) Tollemache, Henry James Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Seton-Karr, Sir Henry Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Sharpe, William Edward T. Tritton, Charles Ernest Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Sheehan, Daniel Daniel Tuff, Charles Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Simeon, Sir Barrington Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward Young, Samuel
Smith, H.C. (North'mb. Tyneside Valentia, Viscount Younger, William
Smith, James Parker(Lanarks. Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H. ( Sheffield
Spear, John Ward Walker, Col. William Hall TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk Warde, Colonel C. E. Alexander Acland-Hood and
Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset Webb, Colonel William George Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs. Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E (Taunton
MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE (Somersetshire, E.)

said that the object of his Amendment was to secure that there should be some provision for a systematic report and inquiry by the justices in each licensing district as regarded public-houses for the guidance of quarter sessions. The consequential part of the Amendment appeared on page twenty-eight of the Amendment Paper. He considered that under the scheme of the Bill it was necessary to transfer those powers from the licensing justices to the quarter sessions; but they should be careful, in doing that, not to unnecessarily weaken the power of the licensing justices. There was no new duty imposed under this Bill on the licensing justices to take any survey of the public-houses in their district and to decide which of them ought to be shut up and which ought to be continued. The great object of this Bill, as they were constantly informed by the Government, was to make a large reduction in the number of public-houses; and it was because of that consideration that many of them voted for the Second Reading. But, unless there was some further provision, that would not be done in all cases. In saying that he did not wish to cast any slur on quarter sessions, of the honour of which the Solicitor-General was so justly jealous. He had no doubt they would do their duty; but that duty would be to deal from time to time with the individual cases referred to them. Quarter sessions would have no initiative; and he contended that the only way in which quarter sessions could get a comprehen- sive view of the conditions, and exercise any intelligent discrimination as to what public-houses should be shut, was to provide within the lour corners of the Bill for a proper and systematic inquiry by the justices in every licensing district, who were the people best acquainted with the facts. It was most important that quarter sessions before they proceeded to administer the compensation fund should have a comprehensive report such as he proposed. Otherwise, there would be certain to be great irregularity, which would be undesirable. There ought to be a proper and systematic report. He had an Amendment further on to provide that the justices of every licensing district should, at their general licensing sessions, or an adjournment thereof, to be held in the year 1905, and in every third subsequent year, inquire into the needs of their district and the number and character of the licensed houses therein, and should make a report to quarter sessions stating the particular on-licences (if any) which in their opinion ought not to be renewed, and any circumstances affecting such licences or the holder thereof which might he material to the renewal or to the value of such licences. If that could be secured, then, and only then, would quarter sessions be able to take a comprehensive view of their duties and decide what was best in the interests of temperance. He did not insist on the exact words of the Amendment; but he hoped the Government would insert an Amendment to carry out his object.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, after the word 'shall' to insert the words 'subject to the provisions of this section for inquiry and report by licensing justices.'"—(Mr. Henry Hobhouse.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."


said that any Amendment moved by his right hon. friend would naturally receive the fullest consideration from the Government. He was not sure, however, that he quite understood the Amendment except in a general way. He understood it to mean that quarter sessions should every three years take a full survey of the whole situation. What was to follow? If they had to wait until this survey was made every three years in order to see what action should be taken, this would mean a revolution in the present annual system. At present there was annual revision, which, he submitted, was a much better system, for it enabled the licensing authorities to carry out the wishes of the justices in each district as far as they were agreed. He could not see, therefore, what was to be gained by changing the system. The Amendment gave quarter sessions powers of initiation which they did not now possess, and he thought that the annual revision was preferable. The point he did not understand was what action would be taken in the interval between the triennial periods.


said that there was nothing in his Amendment to prevent a report in any year.


said it would be open to the justices to take a survey at any period, and report to quarter sessions. He did not really think anything would be gained by the Amendment. They did not intend to interfere with the licensing justices further than was necessitated by the principles of compensation. It would be impossible, without changing the whole licensing law, to take away the annual revision; and there would be no difficulty in the licensing justices surveying their districts and reporting to quarter sessions. He had not the least objection to confer with the right hon. Gentleman. This was a matter which did not go to the principle of the Bill and he would have pleasure in meeting his hon. friend, if he could, by drafting an Amendment which would carry out the object he desired. He might say that there was a similar Amendment further down on the Paper in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon, which he was prepared to accept, which had in view that the progress of quarter sessions should be steadily kept under review. That seemed to him to be an important Amendment, keeping strictly in view what was being done, and an Amendment which he was prepared to accept. So far as the wording of this Amendment was concerned, while he did not say an Amendment of this character ought not to be accepted, it gave greater power of control to quarter sessions, and that being so he could not accept it.


said, though they were grateful to the Solicitor-General for what he had said, that he could not help thinking the hon. and learned Gentleman had not entirely apprehended what this Amendment sought to do. The underlying idea was to obtain a triennial or annual review, of the licences of each district. He agreed that it should be an annual review but that was a detail which did not go to the basis of the Amendment. In order that the county authority should do its best and make the best of the compensation fund, it would be necessary to work on what might be called a county scheme. They had to see what had to be done in the county area in order to see how the fund could be worked to the best advantage, and how could a county scheme be arrived at without making the county authority the initiating authority for this reform? What his right hon. friend proposed by his Amendment was not to interfere with the main principle but to so modify it as to obtain the knowledge of the local authority, so as to enable the county authority to use the compensation fund to the best advantage, and he proposed to do so by asking the local Bench of each district to send are port to the county authority of the needs of the district. If that were done the county authority would be able to get out a good county scheme because they would have the local knowledge which every one desired they should have. Instead of having to rely on a chance objection made by an individual they would be able to ask each particular bench of magistrates to draw out the scheme which they thought best for administering the Bill in their own particular district. When the local justices had done that the county authority could act on the full information coming from these local authorities and the fund would be allocated to its true purpose. He asked the Solicitor-General, therefore, to say that, if a scheme could be evolved which would at once preserve the power of the licensing magistrates of the district and at the same time ensure that the quarter sessions had proper information to deal with the fund in the best possible manner under a county scheme, an Amendment should be introduced to bring together those two desirable objects. Every one interested in this licensing question would agree that this would be a great administrative reform and that it would enable this Bill to be carried out in a broad and at the same time a most economical manner. On these grounds he supported the Amendment.

MR. DUKE (Plymouth)

said he hoped the Solicitor-General would introduce some words into the Bill to give effect to the principle of the Amendment of his right hon. friend. The Bill as it stood was incomplete without the acceptance of some such Amendment as that. The Solicitor-General had assumed that there was at the licensing sessions at the present time a review of licences with a view of ascertaining where licences were redundant.


I say they have the power.


said he had no doubt of that, but what he desired was that they should not only have the power, but that they should also be reminded of their duty. If words were not put in to impress upon the justices the necessity of considering whether there were, or were not, redundant licences in their district, this Bill would fail in its object. All that was desired by the hon. Member for East Somersetshire was that some words should be introduced which would make it the duty of the licensing justices, either annually or at some other period of time, to consider whether there were in the district redundant licences and what ought to be done with those licences The concession which the Government had made with regard to the imposition upon quarter sessions of the duty of reporting to the Home Secretary was the strongest possible argument in favour of putting upon the licensing justices the duty of reporting to the quarter sessions.

MR. TALBOT (Oxford University)

said he desired to support the Amendment, but from a different point of view from that of the mover of it. What he hoped would result from this discussion was that that stimulus would be applied to the local justices which, notwithstanding what had been said as to their extreme energy, was requisite looking to the infirmities of human nature. As the general desire was to remove all redundant licences it must be made not only permissible for the local justices to remove them, but a stimulus must be applied to ensure that they should do so. It was for the reason that he desired to see the stimulus applied that he supported the Amendment.

MR. PEEL (Manchester, S.)

asked whether, in view of the strong feeling on the Government side of the House that something in the direction of the Amendment should be carried out, the Solicitor-General would undertake to introduce a clause. If the matter were postponed to the Report stage, there might, in consequence of the arrangement of new clauses, be some difficulty.


was not sure that he yet understood the object of the Amendment. It appeared to be an attempt to enlarge the power of quarter sessions. Under the Bill the licensing justices were the persons to select the houses to be sent up to quarter sessions. They were bound to do that each year.


pointed out that there was no obligation in the Bill.


said that neither was there any obligation upon the licensing justices now. This was a new complaint. Hitherto the point he had had to meet was that the Government were taking away powers of the licensing justices, but the case here was different. If the selection was left to the licensing justices, how, by sending up a report to quarter sessions, could they effect anything unless the initiation was left to quarter sessions? He did not think the Amendment was necessary, but if the object was to make it clear that it was for brewster sessions to select the cases and for quarter sessions to say whether they agreed or disagreed, he was quite willing to try to meet that view. Under the Bill quarter sessions would have a report from, and a consultation with, the licensing justices, and he failed to see what further assistance in coming to a conclusion would be given by the Amendment. There was also the question of expense. If each year the licensing justices were to send up a report, not merely of the houses which they suggested should be taken away in that year, but of all redundant houses, leaving it to quarter sessions to make a selection, not only would that be a greater infringement upon the rights of the licensing justices than the Bill now made, but it would be necessary for every person interested in each one of those houses to appear annually before quarter sessions, although probably less than one-tenth of the houses would be dealt with in any particular year. That would be almost a prohibitive matter from the point of view of expense. If it was thought to be any advantage that the local magistrates should make the same annual report to the Home Office, and that that Department should distribute it to quarter sessions, he was willing to include that in the Amendment he had promised.


said he was afraid that would not meet the case. His object was that quarter sessions should have from each district not only a report as to the particular houses which were proper subjects for immediate action, but full information as to the other houses which it would be advisable to get rid of in the future, so that they should not dissipate all their money at once. He was sure that was an object which the Government could secure if they liked. This subject would not be discussed on Report owing to the very stringent rules which had been laid down, and he was very much afraid that a mere conference would not produce that effect which would cause the suggestion to be accepted.


said that after hearing what the Solicitor-General had said he was thoroughly satisfied. He was of opinion that these powers which the justices had possessed had not always been operative forces in the country, and he thought it would require a considerable amount of pressure on the local justices to make sure that they would put this provision into operation. The Solicitor-General had promised to provide that it should be the duty of the licensing justices to report to the Home Office what they had done under the Act, and probably that would give that stimulus to putting the Act into operation which he desired.


said he did not know whether his right hon. and learned friend appreciated the fact that this Bill gave no stimulus whatever to the licensing justices to take a survey of the needs of the district every year. Clause 2 provided that the licensing justices were to report on the question of the renewal of any particular on-licences. A concrete illustration of what had happened in Liverpool was valuable as a forecast of what was likely to happen under this Bill. In Liverpool they took a number of areas where the property had been demolished, and year by year they considered the redundancy of licences in those areas. After extinguishing a number of licences in any particular area they did not trouble that district again for some time, and possibly would not touch any more licences in that district for many years. That was a illustration of how this Bill ought to work if any good was really going to be done. His hon. friend had stated that in the past some benches of magistrates had been too active while others had not been active enough. What he desired was to give the necessary stimulus to the licensing justices to bring their efforts up to the requirements of temperance reform by directing them to take a survey of the whole needs of the area.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 192; Noes, 251. (Division List No.205.)

Abraham, William (Cork, K.E.) Grant, Corrie Paulton, James Mellor
Allen, Charles P. Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwiek) Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley
Ashton, Thomas Gair Griffith, Ellis J. Perks, Robert William
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Philipps, John Wynford
Atherley-Jones, L. Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Price, Robert John
Barlow, John Emmott Hain, Edward Rea, Russell
Barran, Rowland Hirst Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Reckitt, Harold James
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale) Reddy, M.
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B Harcourt, Rt. Hn Sir W(Monm't) Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries
Bell, Richard Harwood, George Rickett, J. Compton
Benn, John Williams Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Bill, Charles Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Black, Alexander William Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Roland, John Higham, John Sharpe Roche, John
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Brigg, John Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Rose, Charles Day
Broadhurst, Henry Horniman, Frederick John Runciman, Walter
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Shackleton, Davin James
Burt, Thomas Jacoby, James Alfred Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Johnson, John (Gateshead) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Caldwell, James Joicey, Sir James Shipman, Dr. John G.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea) Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Cawley, Frederick Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Slack, John Bamford
Channing, Francis Allston Jordan, Jeremiah Sloan, Thomas Henry
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Joyce, Michael Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside
Condon, Thomas Joseph Kitson, Sir James Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow Lambert, George Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Craig Robert Hunter (Lanark) Langley, Batty Spear, John Ward
Cremer, William Randal Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Crombie, John William Layland-Barratt, Francis Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Crooks, William Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) Strachey, Sir Edward
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Leng, Sir John Sullivan, Donal
Cullinan, J. Levy, Maurice Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Dalziel, James Henry Lewis, John Herbert Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Lloyd-George, David Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) Lough, Thomas Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower
Delany, William Lundon, W. Tomkinson, James
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Lyell, Charles Henry Toulmin, George
Dobbie, Joseph Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Tritton, Charles Ernest
Duncan, J. Hastings MacVeagh, Jeremiah Ure, Alexander
Dunn, Sir William M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Wallace, Robert
Edwards, Frank M'Crae, George Walton, John Lawson(Leeds, S.)
Elibank, Master of M'Kenna, Reginald Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Ellice, Capt, E.C. (SAndrw's Bghs M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Mansfield, Horace Rendall Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Welby, Sir Charles G.E. (Notts.)
Emmott, Alfred Markham, Arthur Basil White, George (Norfolk)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Evans, Sir Fran. H. (Maidstone Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan Morpeth, Viscount Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Eve, Harry Trelawney Moss, Samuel Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Fenwick, Charles Moulton, John Fletcher Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Murphy, John Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Newnes, Sir George Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Nussey, Thomas Willans Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Flavin, Michael Joseph O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) Yoxall, James Henry
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)
Fuller, J. M. F. O'Malley, William
Furness, Sir Christopher O'Shaughnessy, P. J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—MR.
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Parrott, William Henry Hobhouse and Mr.
Goddard, Daniel Ford Partington, Oswald Austin Taylor.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol S.)
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Aird, Sir John Egerton, Hon. A. do Tatton Lowe, Francis William
Anson, Sir William Reynell Faber, Edmund R. (Hants, W.) Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)
Arrol, Sir William Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r) Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth)
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Austin, Sir John Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas Macdona, John Gumming
Bailey, James (Walworth) Fisher, William Hayes MacIver, David- (Liverpool)
Bain, Colonel James Robert Fison, Frederick William Maconochie, A. W.
Baird, John George Alexander FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- M'Fadden, Edward
Balcarres, Lord Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon M'Iver, Sir Lewis ( Edinb'rgh, W.)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Flannery, Sir Fortcscue M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Flower, Sir Ernest Majendie, James A. H.
Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Forster, Henry William Malcolm, Ian
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christen. Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W. Martin, Richard Biddulph
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Galloway, William Johnson Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) Gardner, Ernest Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H.E (Wigt'n
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Garfit, William Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Bhowuaggree, Sir M. M. Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Bignold, Arthur Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Milvain, Thomas
Blundell, Colonel Henry Goulding, Edward Alfred Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Bond, Edward Graham, Henry Robert Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Bousfield, William Robert Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Morgan, David J (Walthamstow
Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) Morrell, George Herbert
Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.) Grenfell, William Henry Morrison, James Archibald
Bull, William James Gretton, John Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Burdett-Coutts, W. Greville, Hon. Ronald Mount, William Arthur
Butcher, John George Groves, James Grimble Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute
Campbell. Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow Gunter, Sir Robert Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Carlile, William Walter Hall, Edward Marshall Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Myers, William Henry
Cautley, Henry Strother Hambro, Charles Eric Nannetti, Joseph P.
Cavendish. V.C.W. (Derbyshire Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry Newdegate, Francis A. N.
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hare, Thomas Leigh Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A. (Wore. Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley O'Dowd, John
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Heath, James (Staffords, N.W.) Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Chapman, Edward Heaton, John Henniker Pemberton, John S. G.
Charrington, Spencer Hendorson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.) Percy, Earl
Churchill, Winston Spencer Hickman, Sir Alfred Pierpoint, Robert
Clare, Octavius Leigh Hoare, Sir Samuel Pilkington, Colonel Richard.
Clive, Captain Percy A. Hogg, Lindsay Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Coates, Edward Feetham Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Cohrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E. Hoult, Joseph Pretyman, Ernest George
Coddington, Sir William Houston, Robert Paterson Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Coghill, Douglas Harry Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham) Rankin, Sir James
Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C.R. Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham Ratcliff, R. F.
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Reid, James (Greenock)
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Hudson, George Bickersteth Remnant, James Farquharson
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S. Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Crean, Eugene Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Renwick, George
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Richards, Henry Charles
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh) Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Dalkeith, Earl of Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Kerr, John Robinson, Brooke
Davenport, William Bromley Keswick, William Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham Kimber, Henry Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Dickinson, Robert Edmond King, Sir Henry Seymour Round, Rt. Hon. James
Dickson, Charles Scott Knowles, Sir Lees Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C. Laurie, Lieut.-General Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N.R. Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Doogan, P. C. Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse
Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Doughty, George Llewellyn, Evan Henry Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Seton-Karr, Sir Henry
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) Sharpe, William Edward T.
Sheehan, Daniel Daniel Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)
Simeon, Sir Barrington Tuff, Charles Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk Valentia, Viscount Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset) Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H. (Sheffield Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.) Walker, Col. William Hall Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart Warde, Colonel C. E. Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Stock, James Henry Webb, Colonel William George Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Stone, Sir Benjamin Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton Young, Samuel
Stroyan, John Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd Younger, William
Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne
Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Whitmore, Charles Algernon TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Alexander Acland-Hood
Thorburn, Sir Walter Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
MR. CHANNING (Northamptonshire, E.)

said he did not propose to move the Amendment standing in his name. He thought it was desirable to support the Amendment to be proposed by the hon. Member for Huddersfield.


said he wished to move in line 9 of Clause 1, after "in," to insert "a committee, one-half of whom in every case shall be elected by the justices of the licensing district from their own number, and one-half by the county council from their own number." He said that this Amendment raised the question of the introduction of some representative element in the constitution of the authority which would have to deal with licences. He was fortified in submitting the Amendment by the fact that the principle received the support of both the Majority and Minority Reports of the Royal Commission. He also claimed that the Scottish Act of last year contained precisely the same suggestion he was making. What was good for Scotland ought to be good for England. Apart from that, the introduction of the representative principle was thoroughly justified by the fact that the ratepayers had to pay for the consequences of intemperance in the shape of increased police rates and poor rates and all the consequences that flowed from the excessive use of intoxicating drinks. The ordinary principle of self-government, namely, that what the ratepayers had to pay for they ought to have some right to control, should be observed in this matter. As long ago as 1835 the House of Commons sanctioned that principle, when the Municipal Reform Act of that year was under discussion, by a large majority. The House of Lords rejected the proposal, but the view of the House of Commons was that the whole question of licences should be placed in the hands of municipal corporations. Further, the Conservative Government, when the Local Government Act was being considered in the year 1888, proposed to give a committee of the county council power to deal with licences, so that he had these precedents in support of his Amendment.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, to leave out from the word 'in,' to the word 'but,' in line 10, and insert the words 'a committee, one-half of whom in every case shall be elected by the justices of the licensing district from their own number, and one-half by the county council from their own number.'"—(Sir James Woodhouse.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'quarter sessions' stand part of the clause."


said that the Government were unable to accept the Amendment. The hon. Member had referred to what took place in 1888, when the Conservative Government proposed to make a committee of the county council the authority to administer licences; but the authority of 1888 was based on different principles from those which they were now proposing; although he admitted now proposing; although he admitted that if the proposal of the Government of 1888 had been accepted a great many of the existing difficulties would not have arisen. The Amendment was wholly at variance with the principle followed in drafting the Bill, which had been to make as little change as possible in the existing system and to leave the decision to a judicial body. There were differences of administration in counties and boroughs, but as closely as possible the Bill kept to the existing system. The Amendment would mean a radical change in the existing system, and such was not intended. Really the changes made by the Bill in the licensing system would be small; if the justices refused a renewal of a licence to an applicant, the ultimate decision would rest with the quarter sessions as a judicial body.


That would not apply to county boroughs.


There were points of difference in administration between the county boroughs and the county councils. The Government had endeavoured to keep as nearly as possible to the existing system, and to leave to the magistrates the decision of the matters in question. The proposal

of the hon. Gentleman would involve a complete change in the existing system, because instead of these cases being referred to quarter sessions they would be referred to a committee, half of whom would be elected by the licensing justices and half by the county council. They proposed to give to the body in which the power now rested the right to say what licence should not be renewed and the exercise of that right accompanied by compensation to be provided by the trade itself. The Amendment would be a radical departure from the proposals in the Bill; and he, therefore, hoped the Committee would not accept it.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 245; Noes, 151. (Division List, No. 206.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Clive, Captain Percy A. Galloway, William Johnson
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Coates, Edward Feetham Gardner, Ernest
Anson, Sir William Reynell Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A. E. Garfit, William
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. Coddington, Sir William Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn
Arrol, Sir William Coghill, Douglas Harry Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cohen, Benjamin Louis Goulding, Edward Alfred
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Graham, Henry Robert
Austin, Sir John Compton, Lord Alwyne Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Bailey, James (Walworth) Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)
Bain, Colonel James Robert Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S. Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)
Baird, John George Alexander Crean, Eugene Grenfell, William Henry
Balcarres, Lord Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Gretton, John
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Greville, Hon. Ronald
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Dalrymple, Sir Charles Groves, James Grimble
Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Davenport, William Bromley- Hambro, Charles Eric
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'derry
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Dickinson, Robert Edmond Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) Dickson, Charles Scott Hare, Thomas Leigh
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.
Bignold, Arthur Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. Hay, Hon. Claude George
Bigwood, James Doughty, George Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley
Bill, Charles Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- Heath, James (Staffords. N.W.
Blundell, Colonel Henry Doxford, Sir William Theodore Helder, Augustus
Bond, Edward Duke, Henry Edward Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Hickman, Sir Alfred
Bousfield, William Robert Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Hoare, Sir Samuel
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Hogg, Lindsay
Bull, William James Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Hope, J.F. (Sheffield. Brightside
Butcher, John George Faber, Edmuna B. (Hants, W.) Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A. (Glasgow Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Hoult, Joseph
Carlile, William Walter Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Houston, Robert Paterson
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)
Cautley, Henry Strother Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas Hudson, George Bickersteth
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Fisher, William Hayes Jameson, Majer J. Eustace
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Fison, Frederick William Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.
Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A. (Worc. FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton
Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Flannery, Sir Fortescue Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)
Chapman, Edward Flower, Sir Ernest Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop
Charrington, Spencer Forster, Henry William Kerr, John
Clare, Octavius Leigh Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W. Kimber, Henry
King, Sir Henry Seymour Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Knowles, Sir Lees Mount, William Arthur Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Laurie, Lieut.-General Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute Simeon, Sir Barrington
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N.R. Myers, William Henry Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)
Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham Nannetti, Joseph P. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.
Llewellyn, Evan Henry Newdegate, Francis A. N. Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Stock, James Henry
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N) Stone, Sir Benjamin
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.) Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Stroyan, John
Lonsdale, John Brownlee Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Lowe, Francis William Pemberton, John S. G. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Percy, Earl Tollemache, Henry James
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Pierpoint, Robert Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Pilkington, Colonel Richard Tuff, Charles
Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Valentia, Viscount
Macdona, John Cumming Pretyman, Ernest George Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H (Sheffield
MacIver, David (Liverpool) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Walker, Col. William Hall
M'Fadden, Edward Pym, C. Guy Welby, Lt.-Col A.C.E. (Taunton
M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W. Rankin, Sir James Welby, Sir Charles G.E. (Notts.)
M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Ratcliff, R. F. Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne
Majendie, James A. H. Reid, James (Greenock) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Malcolm, Ian Remnant, James Farquharson Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
Martin, Richard Biddulph Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)
Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F. Richards, Henry Charles Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H.E. (Wigt'n Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriesshire Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Robinson, Brooke Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Mesey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Milvain, Thomas Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Young, Samuel
Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Round, Rt. Hon. James Younger, William
Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants) Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir
Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Alexander Acland-Hood and
Morpeth, Viscount Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Morrell, George Herbert Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Morrison, James Archibald Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon
Ashton, Thomas Gair Dalziel, James Henry Grant, Corrie
Atherley-Jones, L. Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)
Barlow, John Emmott Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan Griffith, Ellis J.
Barron, Rowland Hirst Delany, William Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Dobbie, Joseph Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale
Bell, Richard Doogan, P. C. Harcourt, Rt Hn Sir W (Monm'th
Benn, John Williams Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Harwood, George
Black, Alexander William Dunn, Sir William Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.
Boland, John Edwards, Frank Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Elibank, Master of Higham, John Sharpe
Brigg, John Ellice, Capt E C (S Andrw's Bghs) Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)
Broadhurst, Henry Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Emmott, Alfred Horniman, Frederick John
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)
Burt, Thomas Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Johnson, John (Gateshead)
Caldwell, James Eve, Harry Trelawney Joicey, Sir James
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Fenwick, Charles Jones William(Carnarvonshire
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Jordan, Jeremiah
Cawley, Frederick Flavin, Michael Joseph Joyce, Michael
Condon, Thomas Joseph Foster, Sir Waiter (Derby Co.) Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W.
Gorbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. Kitson, Sir James
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Fuller, J. M. F. Lambert, George
Cremer, William Randal Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Langley Batty
Crooks, William Goddard, Daniel Ford Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)
Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Taylor, Theodore G (Radcliffe)
Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Parrott, William Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Leng, Sir John Partington, Oswald Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Lewis, John Herbert Paulton, James Mellor Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower
Loyd-George, David Philipps, John Wynford Tomkinson, James
Lundon, W. Reckitt, Harold James Toulmin, George
Lyell, Charles Henry Reddy, M. Ure, Alexander
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Rickett, J. Compton Wallace, Robert
MacVeagh, Jeremiah Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Walton, John Lawson (Leeds
M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
M'Crae, George Roche, John Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Runciman, Walter Wason John Cathcart (Orkney)
Mansfield, Horace Rendall Russell, T. W. White, George (Norfolk)
Markham, Arthur Basil Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.) Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight Whitley J. H. (Halifax)
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Shackleton, David James Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Moss, Samuel Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Williams, Osmond (Merioneh)
Moulton, John Fletoher Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)
Murphy, John Shipman, Dr. John G. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.
Newnes, Sir George Slack, John Bamford Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Nussey, Thomas Willans Sloan, Thomas Henry Wood, James
O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid Smith, Samuel (Flint)
O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.) Spear, John Ward TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Stanhope, Hon. Philip James Mr. Channing and Mr.
O' Kelly, James(Rosoommon, N. Strachey, Sir Edward Charles Allen
O'Malley, William Sullivan, Donal

said he had been astonished, not to say dismayed, to hear the President of the Local Government Board assume as a fact that the quarter sessions in discharging the duties to be discharged under this Bill would act as a judicial body. Everyone conversant with the duties of quarter sessions would know that they had two separate and distinct sets of duties, one of them administrative and the other judicial. There was no difficulty in distinguishing between the administrative duties which had devolved on justices by the practice of centuries and the operation of Acts of Parliament and a different character. It was essential their judicial duties which were of quite that Parliament should decide whether the duties devolving on quarter sessions through this Bill, which was an administrative measure, should be performed by quarter sessions as a judicial or an administrative body. He submitted that these administrative duties should be performed by quarter sessions as an administrative body.

And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report again this evening.