HC Deb 06 July 1904 vol 137 cc870-913

Considered in Committee

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

Clause 1:—


continuing his speech, contended that if the Bill were examined it would be seen that it was impossible that it could have ever been intended that it was to be administered on judicial principles; there was no con test, and the whole matter was one of administration. There could be no judicial decisions, no parties and no dispute which required a tribunal or procedure to deal with them on judicial lines. He asked the Government to consider whether there were not some means by which they could define the powers which the justices were to exercise. If some were to be judicial let them be selected and declared to be powers to be administered judicially. But having regard to the fact that the major part of these powers were purely administrative powers, he asked the Government to make the matter clear in the Act. If they did not make it clear that the whole of the powers were administrative and were to be exercised with the freedom with which administrative powers were exercised by administrative bodies in this country, at any rate let them declare what the judicial powers were and leave the local authority free to administer the administrative powers. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, after the word 'sessions,' to insert the words 'acting as an administrative body.'"—(Mr. Duke.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."


said so far as he could see this discussion was purely of an academic nature. There was no doubt that many of the duties to be performed were purely of an administrative character. It could be gathered from the Bill, without setting out the fact, that quarter sessions was acting as an administrative body. His hon. and learned friend was correct in saying that many of the duties of quarter sessions under this Bill would be administrative. Licensing and setting up the compensation fund were purely matters of administration, but there were other duties cast on quarter sessions by this Bill which could not be described as other than judicial. In all cases of appeal from the licensing justices and in all matters specified in the first sub-section they would act judicially. A licence-holder who was refused a renewal might appeal to quarter sessions, and there again they would have to act in a judicial capacity. The licensing authorities might report that there were too many licensed houses in the district, and in that case a licence-holder whose licence was to be extinguished had a right to appeal to quarter sessions and say, "It is quite true that you say my licence ought to be taken away but I dispute that." Such a thing as that would constitute the very case which his hon. and learned friend said would necessitate a judicial decision, inasmuch as there would be a dispute between the parties. Quarter sessions were also entitled to hear other parties interested, which would include the justices who made the order. To draw a distinction between one set of cases in which they would be acting in a judicial capacity and another set of cases equally important, as leading to the same result, and to lay it down that in the latter they must act in a purely administrative character, would be a monstrous thing to do.


asked the Solicitor-General would the quarter sessions administer the principles of law or doctrines of equity?


said they would administer both. The insertion of the words "acting as an administrative body" would leave it open to quarter sessions to say in regard to particular matters that although they had litigants and advocates before them and had to hear evidence, they, nevertheless, were not acting in a judicial capacity. The important thing was to know what duties were imposed, their nature, and how they were to be carried out. There would be no difficulty in determining, where necessary, when quarter sessions were acting judicially and when administratively.


noted the statements of the Solicitor-General that in accordance with the Act of 1902 the justices would still be heard upon these applications, and that in dealing with the personal and public rights involved there would be an opportunity for legal assistance, if necessary, in determining what were essentially judicial questions. He could not, however, follow the right hon. and learned Gentleman in his distinction between the administrative and judicial functions of quarter sessions. The appointment of the compensation fund provided not by the State or the public, but by the whole body of licence-holders themselves, the want of which had been one great obstacle to temperance reform, and the cessation of which, under a time limit, would, he felt as a magistrate, be a new and even greater impediment to such reform, which he heartily favoured, but for which personally he relied more upon education than upon legislation—was administrative; but the private question whether a licensee should or should not have his licence renewed, and the important public question whether the licence should or should not be renewed in the public interest owing to an excess of licensed houses in the district, was as clearly a matter of justice and to be judicially determined by the magistrates, who had always been bound, in law, not to act merely arbitrarily, but to exercise a real judicial discretion. The insertion of the words now proposed would be restrictive of the operation of the Bill. Two great questions would have to be dealt with judicially—first: Whether a licensee ought to be deprived of his licence on public grounds; and, secondly: Whether a particular house was required or not. In the former a private, and in the latter a public interest was concerned. The calculation of the compensation might be an administrative act, but it was merely a corollary of what quarter sessions must have previously determined judicially, viz., whether or not a licence should be renewed. The determination on the report of the local justices would frequently involve very important judicial considerations. As to the Bill derogating from the power of the local justices, he believed that a formal reasoned report, which would always be before quarter sessions, would have more influence and be more difficult to displace, because the onus of displacing it would be cast upon the virtual appellant. There ought to be in the future as there had teen in the pasta judicial determination of questions which were still really to be the subject of an automatic appeal. He hoped, therefore, the Bill would not be restricted by the insertion of the Amendment, which would restrict the duty owed towards both the publican and the public, each of whom were entitled to justice, and he noted from the speech of the Solicitor-General that the practice before the magistrates at brewster sessions would be maintained intact, and also that the parties interested and the local justices would still be entitled to legal assistance on such judicial points at quarter sessions, while in the county boroughs the abolition of any appeal to the quarter sessions for the county was an unquestionable concession to a long-standing grievance. Compensation, the fund for which might well have been made more adequate, and in which alone, and not in the licence, any vested interest was created, was the corollary of the refusal to renew, was thus administrative, but there was a previous question to be determined, renewal or non-renewal, and this was a judicial one from both points of view. But, it was contended, that the new practice would derogate from the powers and influence of the local justices. As to this, and as both a county and a borough magistrate, and a former legal practitioner in licensing cases on each side as to renewal or non-renewal and as to new licences, he respectfully but strongly differed. For, under the existing practice, the right of appeal from brewster to quarter sessions against non-renewal on; the ground of excession of number of houses was absolute and practically always exercised. And the change proposed to be made in the case of such non-renewals was really an automatic appeal. With this difference, that the local justices, who, it had been legally decided, should not be represented on the appeal except under special circumstances, who were sometimes represented and sometimes not, and who, it was understood, would still retain any right to appear, and under the Act of 1902 would also be empowered to make a written and reasoned report to quarter sessions in every case of non-renewal on public grounds of excess of number of houses; and, whether the justices were represented or not, this report would always be read and largely referred to. Now, as a magistrate, he felt that such a report from a competent Court would receive more respect than any mere ex parte advocacy, inasmuch as it would be founded on local knowledge and experience, while it would be adjudicated upon by an independent judicial tribunal. It would, of course, be treated, as all such Court reports were by appeal tribunals, with respect, while it would have the effect, which advocacy on a rehearing never could have, of casting the onus of displacing it upon the party who impeached it, a legal consideration the importance of which any magistrate or practitioner would appreciate. And this was clearly not an administrative matter, but one which he himself and other magistrates, would always seek to determine as a judicial; question and by the exercise of an impartial discretion, after hearing the justices' report, and that the parties, including the local magistrates, had to say upon it; and surely this was no reduction of such magistrates' powers, but, so far as it was more than an automatic equivalent of the existing absolute right of appeal to quarter sessions, rather an increase of power than otherwise. But all this was essentially judicial, not merely administrative, and such being the case he must oppose the Amendment of his hon. friend.


supported the Amendment, which he submitted clearly declared the law as laid down by the highest tribunals in the land—viz., that the determination of the question of the renewal of a licence, on the ground of non-requirement, was an administrative and not a judicial act. The only reason which had been avowed for vesting this duty in quarter sessions was that they were to dispense the compensation fund, but as an administrative and not as a judicial duty, so that no ground had been alleged for turning the tribunal of quarter sessions from an administrative into a judicial body in that sense. The report was to be sent from the licensing justices to the quarter sessions, not as a Court of Appeal, but as an authority who were to deal with it as an originating and determining body; and he submitted that there was a broad distinction between quarter sessions hearing an appeal, and determining a matter as an originating body with sole power to decide. The moment the question was considered in connection with a county borough the absurdity of the position became apparent. In county boroughs the whole body of justices,

having no power to determine the matter themselves, would send it to a committee of their own members to decide finally, so that, according to the Solicitor-General, the whole body would be an administrative body, while the committee of the larger body would be a judicial body. Anybody who had had experience of the working of the licensing law would be compelled to agree with the hon. and learned Member for Plymouth.

MR. H. C. RICHARDS (Finsbury, E.)

agreed that there were times when quarter sessions had to act in an administrative capacity, but he thought the case which had been put forward demonstrated that when it was a question of dealing with the report of a committee, consisting practically of a minority of the magistrates of a county borough, they were bound to act in a judicial capacity. The hon. and learned Member for Plymouth had at any rate made out a case for a clear definition, although possibly the present was not the occasion upon which the Solicitor-General would prefer to give it. Quarter sessions had to determine the number of licences to be sacrificed, and they could not be said to be acting in a strictly judicial capacity until they had actually singled out the individual victims, and then every person interested ought, to be heard.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 132; Noes, 124. (Division List No. 207.)

Ashton, Thomas Gair Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)
Barlow, John Emmott Corbett. T. L. (Down, North) Eve, Harry Trelawney
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Fenwick, Charles
Bell, Richard Cremer, William Randal Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)
Benn, John Williams Crombie, John William Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)
Black, Alexander William Crooks. William Fuller, J. M. F.
Boland, John Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Grant, Corrie
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Cullinan, J. Griffith, Ellis J.
Brigg, John Dalziel, James Henry Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Broadhurst, Henry Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Harwood, George
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Davies. M. Vaughan- (Cardigan Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.
Burke, E. Haviland- Delany, William Higham, John Sharpe
Burns, John Dobbie, Joseph Holland, Sir William Henry
Burt, Thomas Doogan, P. C. Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)
Caldwell, James Douglas. Charles M. (Lanark) Horniman, Frederick John
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Dunn, Sir William Johnson, John (Gateshead)
Cawley, Frederick Edwards, Frank Jones, William (Carnarvonshire
Channing, Francis Allston Ellice, Capt. E C(S. Andrw's Bghs Jordan, Jeremiah
Condon, Thomas Joseph Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) Joyce, Michael
Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W. O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid. Sullivan, Donal
Kilbride, Denis O'Doherty, William Taylor, Theodore C. (Ridcliffe)
Kitson, Sir James O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Tennant, Harold John
Lambert, George O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Langley, Batty Parrott, William Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)
Laurie, Lieut.-General Philipps, John Wynford Thomas, J. A. (Glamorgan, Gowe)
Lawson, Sir Wilfrid Cornwall) Power, Patrick Joseph Tomkinson, James
Leese Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Reckitt, Harold James Toulmin, George
Leigh, Sir Joseph Reddy, M. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Leng, Sir John Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries) Wallace, Robert
Lewis, John Herbert Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Lloyd-George, David Roberts, John N. (Denbighs.) Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Lundon, W. Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) White, George (Norfolk)
Lyell, Charles Henry Roche, John White, Luke (York, E.R.)
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Runciman, Walter Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
MacVeagh, Jeremiah Russell, T. W. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
M'Crae, George Schwann, Charles E. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
M'Kenna, Reginald Shackleton, David James Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Mansfield, Horace Kendall Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Wood, James
Markham, Arthur Basil Sheehy, David Yoxall, James Henry
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Slack, John Bamford TELLERS FOE THE AYES—
Morpeth, Viscount Sloan, Thomas Henry Mr. Duke and Sir James
Moss, Samuel Smith, Samuel (Flint) Woodhouse.
Newnes, Sir George Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Crean, Eugene Helder, Augustus
Anson, Sir William Reynell Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Hickman, Sir Alfred
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. Cubitt, Hon. Henry Hoare, Sir Samuel
Arrol, Sir William Dalkeith, Earl of Hogg, Lindsay
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hope J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Davenport, William Bromley- Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Austin, Sir John Davies Sir Horatio D. (Chatham Houston, Robert Paterson
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Dickinson, Robert Edmond Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouss
Bailey, James (Walworth) Dickson, Charles Scott Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred
Bain, Colonel James Robert Doughty, George Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Baird, John George Alexander Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)
Balcarres, Lord Doxford, Sir William Theodore Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Kerr, John
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart King, Sir Henry Seymour
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Knowles, Sir Lees
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Law, Andrew Bonar(Glasgow)
Bignold, Arthur Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)
Bigwood, James Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N.R
Blundell, Colonel Henry Fison, Frederick William Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham
Bond, Edward Flower, Sir Ernest Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Forster, Henry William Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.
Bousfield, William Robert Galloway, William Johnson Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Gardner, Ernest Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)
Brotherton, Edward Allen Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn) Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)
Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.) Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Line.) Lowe, Francis William
Bull, William James Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)
Burdett-Coutts, W. Goulding, Edward Alfred Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Butcher, John George Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Cautley, Henry Strother Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.) M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Gretton, John M'Fadden, Edward
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Greville, Hon. Ronald M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J.A. (Wore. Groves, James Grimble M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
Chapman, Edward Hall, Edward Marshall Majendie, James A. H.
Charrington, Spencer Hambro, Charles Eric Martin, Richard Biddulph
Clare, Octavius Leigh Hamilton, Marq. Of (L'nd'nderry Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.
Coates, Edward Feetham Hare, Thomas Leigh Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H.E (Wigt'n
Cochrane, Hon. Thos, H. A. E. Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Milvain, Thomas
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Reid, James (Greenock) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow Remnant, James Farquharson Talbot, Lord. E. (Chichester)
Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Renwick, George, Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Mount, William Arthur Richards, Henry Charles Thorburn, Sir Walter
Murray, Rt. Hn A. Graham (Bute Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Tuff, Charles
Myers, William Henry Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Valentia, Viscount
Nannetti, Joseph P. Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H. (Sheffield
Nicholson, William Graham Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Walker, Col. William Hall
Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
O'Dowd, John Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)
Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Pemberton, John S. G. Sharpe, William Edward T. Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Percy, Earl Sheehan, Daniel Daniel Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Pierpoint, Robert Smith H.C (North'mb. Tyneside Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Plummer, Walter R. Spear, John Ward Young, Samuel
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset) Younger, William
Pretyman, Ernest George Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.)
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Stock, James Henry TELLERS FOE THE NOES—
Pym, C. Guy Stone, Sir Benjamin Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Ratcliff, R, F. Stroyan, John and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

moved to leave out the words "instead of" and insert "sitting with." According to the Bill the justices of the licensing district would have the position of a committee against whom there would be an appeal to quarter sessions. It might happen that the licensing justices declared by a large majority against a renewal, and their decision might be reversed by quarter sessions by a bare majority, and his object in providing that licensing justices should sit with quarter sessions upon the hearing of the appeal, was that the authorities having local knowledge should also have a voice in determining the question. He trusted that the Solicitor-General would, at any rate, be able to accept the substance of his Amendment.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, to lea e out the words 'instead of.' and insert the words 'sitting with.'"—(Mr. Ellis Griffith.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."


said he could not accept the Amendment; it would be absolutely impossible that the justices of

every licensing district should sit at quarter sessions. Licensing justices would, in fact, have great influence, for they would have the initiating power to bring about the withdrawal of a licence and quarter sessions would not. That a decision by quarter sessions might be given by a small majority was true, and the same thing happened in the High Court; he had recent experience of a decision being upset in the House of Lords by a majority of one. That had to be accepted and an exception could not be made in a case of this kind. The hon. and learned Member said that the licensing justices would have no voice in the matter; but he wished to point out that they would have a great voice because quarter sessions would have no initiative, and the licensing justices would have to select those licences which they thought ought not to be renewed. Therefore it was not quite accurate to say that they had no voice, and his hon. and learned friend would therefore see that the matter was not really so bad as he had made out.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 210; Noes, 128. (Division List No. 208.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Atkinson, Rt. Hoc. John Bain, Colonel James Robert
Anson, Sir William Reynell Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Baird, John George Alexander
Arkwright, John Stanhope Austin, Sir John Balcarres, Lord
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitsRoy Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r
Arrol, Sir William Bailey, James (Walworth) Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Groves, James Grimble Nicholson, William Graham
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Hall, Edward Marshall Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)
Bignold, Arthur Hambro, Charles Eric Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Bigwood, James Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Bill, Charles Hare, Thomas Leigh O'Dowd, John
Blundell, Colonel Henry Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Bond, Edward Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Pemberton, John S. G.
Boushfield, William Robert Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Percy, Earl
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Helder, Augustus Pierpoint, Robert
Brotherton, Edward Allen Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Plummer, Walter R.
Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.) Hickman, Sir Alfred Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bull, William James Hoare, Sir Samuel Pretyman, Ernest George
Burdett-Coutts, W. Hobhouse, Rt Hn H (Somers't, E Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Butcher, John George Hogg, Lindsay Pym, C. Guy
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside Ratcliff, R. F.
Cautley, Henry Strother Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Reid, James (Greenock)
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire Houston, Robert Paterson Remnant, James Farquharson
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Jameson, Major J. Eustace Renwick, George
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Richards, Henry Charles
Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A (Worc. Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Chapman, Edward Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Charrington, Spencer Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh) Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Clare, Octavius Leigh Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Coates, Edward Feetham Kerr, John Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. King, Sir Henry Seymour Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Knowles, Sir Lees Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win. Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Laurie, Lieut.-General Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Crean, Eugene Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N.R. Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Dalkeith, Earl of Llewellyn, Evan Henry Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Spear, John Ward
Davenport, William Bromley Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)
Dickinson, Robert Edmond Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Dickson, Charles Scott Lowe, Francis William Stock, James Henry
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Stone, Sir Benjamin
Doughty, George Loyd, Archie Kirkman Stroyan, John
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers MacIver, David (Liverpool) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Maconochie, A. W. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Duke, Henry Edward M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin M'Fadden, Edward Thorburn, Sir Walter
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Tuff, Charles
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Majendie, James A. H. Valentia, Viscount
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Martin, Richard Biddulph Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H (Sheffield
Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Walker, Col. William Hall
Fison, Frederick William Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir H.E (Wigt'n Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh. Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne
Flower, Sir Ernest Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Forster, Henry William Milvain, Thomas Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Calloway, William Johnson Molesworth, Sir Lewis Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.
Gardner, Ernest Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.) Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)
Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn) Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Gore, Hon. S.F. Ormsby-(Linc.) Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Morpeth, Viscount Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Goulding, Edward Alfred Morrell, George Herbert Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Graham, Henry Robert Morrison, James Archibald Young, Samuel
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Younger, William
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Mount, William Arthur
Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.) Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute) TELLERS FOE THE AYES—Sir
Gretton, John Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Alexander Acland-Hood and
Greville, Hon. Ronald Myers, William Henry Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Boland, John
Ashton, Thomas Gair Bell, Richard Bolton, Thomas Dolling
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Benn, John Williams Brigg, John
Barlow, John Emmott Black, Alexander William Broadhurst, Henry
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Higham, John Sharpe Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Burke, E. Haviland Holland, Sir William Henry Roche, John
Burns, John Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Rose, Charles Day
Burt, Thomas Horniman, Frederick John Runciman, Walter
Buxton, Sydney Charles Johnson, John (Gateshead) Russell, T. W.
Caldwell, James Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Jordan, Jeremiah Schwann, Charles E.
Cawley, Frederick Joyce, Michael Shackleton, David James
Channing, Francis Allston Kitson, Sir James Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Lambert, George Shipman, Dr. John G.
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Langley, Batty Slack, John Bamford
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Sloan, Thomas Henry
Cremer, William Randal Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington) Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Crombie, John William Leigh, Sir Joseph Sullivan, Donal
Crooks, William Leng, Sir John Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Lewis, John Herbert Tennant, Harold John
Dalziel, James Henry Lloyd-George, David Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Lundon, W. Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan Lyell, Charles Henry- Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower
Delany, William MacVeagh, Jeremiah Tomkinson, James
Dobbie, Joseph M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Toulmin, George
Donelan, Captain A. M'Crae, George Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Doogan, P. C. M'Kenna, Reginald Wallace, Robert
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Mansfield, Horace Rendall Walton, Jn. Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Dunn, Sir William Markham, Arthur Basil Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Ellice, Capt E.C (S Andrw's Bghs Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) White, George (Norfolk)
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) Morley, Charles (Breconshire) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Moss, Samuel Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Eve, Harry Trelawney Newnes, Sir George Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Fenwick, Charles Norton, Capt. Cecil William Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Flavin, Michael Joseph O'Doherty, William Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Wood, James
Fuller, J. M. F. O'Malley, William Woodhouse, Sir J.T (Huddersf'd
Furness, Sir Christopher Parrott, William Yoxall, James Henry
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Philipps, John Wynford
Grant, Corrie Power, Patrick Joseph TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Reckitt, Harold James Ellis Griffith and Mr. Ed-
Harwood, George Reddy, M. wards.

moved to leave out the word "but" in line 10, and to insert the word "and" with the object of ensuring that there should be a sufficient reduction of licences under the Bill and also to ensure that the public, to some extent, would get value for the rights which, in the opinion of many, they were called upon to relinquish under the Bill. The Solicitor-General informed the Committee yesterday that some of the Amendments were being moved in a perfunctory manner without sufficient reasons being given in their support. He was afraid that he would now be open to the same charge, because the point raised by the Amendment was a very large one. The reproach did not come very well from those who had taken steps to secure that it would be impossible to reason on many of the greater issues raised by this Bill. If time permitted, he believed a strong case could be made out for the Amendment he now proposed. In introducing the Bill, the Home Secretary said its object was the reduction of licences. The right hon. Gentleman said that was a good thing. Well, if this reduction was so necessary, why was it not to be compulsory? The impression of the Prime Minister was that the justices had been consumed with a desire to reduce licences unnecessarily throughout the country. His own experience was very different. He believed that the desire for conferring licences was, in many instances, a great deal keener than the desire to restrict them. The licensing authorities which had been least inclined to reduce licences had been quarter sessions. They might take as an example a division of the county to which he belonged. In the Island of Lewis the local justices had over and over again refused to renew licences, and the licences had always been restored by quarter sessions. He saw little security under this Bill of any large, general, or sufficient reduction of licences. Indeed, it offered obstacles to the reduction of licences, because many licences, which had no value at present, would be given a value, and the valuation scheme, by which it was proposed to make the value of licences as they stood at the passing of the Bill the basis of compensation, was, in his opinion, largely delusive. It would be found that they were raising, under this Bill, many financial obstacles to the reduction of licences. To make the reduction effective, he submitted that it should be compulsory. He did not regard the reduction of licences as the most essential branch of temperance reform. He looked upon the provision of counter attractions, which were wholly unprovided for in this Bill, and the maintenance of the control of the justices, as far more important than the mere reduction of licences, which to a large extent would be made more difficult under this Bill than it was now. There could be no difficulty in providing compulsory power under the Bill, because the hon. Baronet the Member for Northwest Manchester, Lord Peel, and others suggested a scheme by which compulsion could be effected, and they recorded in the Minority Report that a great reduction of licences was a matter of the first importance, and that the redistribution of licensed houses should be safeguarded by a statutory maximum of say one on-licensed house to every 750 persons in a town population, and every 400 in a country population. Their view was that in seven years the number of on-licences should be reduced to that figure in England, and within five years in Scotland. The hon. Baronet knew that the distribution of licences in the North was much more approximate to this standard than it was in England. He wished the hon. Baronet had himself raised this point, and all the more because, although they had heard a great deal as to the support moderate men would be able to give to temperance reform, the course of this debate had shown how utterly ineffective their support had been in the discussions on the Bill. The object of the hon. Baronet was that at the end of seven years in England and five years in Scotland, the field should be left clear for legislative experiments by Parliament in the way of providing for the elimination of the element of profit in the liquor traffic, or any other method by which the liquor traffic could be more effectively controlled than at present. Besides that there should be absolute freedom for local communities to control the liquor traffic, either through local option or any other effective system of administration. Judging from his experience of the working of the present system he believed this Bill would form an effective check to the development of temperance reform schemes in the direction he had indicated. He believed that a compulsory reduction of licences would in some degree be a mitigation of the evils which would follow the passing of the Bill, and that it would be some security for leaving the way open for future experiments. It would also secure that the public would not have to pay a great deal more than they ought to. What the public were losing through this Bill was the rights in the monopoly which had been created by the public. That constituted to his mind confiscation of public property. He moved his Amendment, and would leave it to the judgment of the House.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 10, to leave out the word 'but,' and insert the word 'and.'"—(Mr. Munro Ferguson.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'but' stand part of the clause.'"


said that the Amendment put from the Chair had no relation to the important question raised by the hon. Member opposite. The hon. Member had spoken on many points of great public importance, and had said that under this Bill the public were losing the benefit of a monopoly which belonged to them. If that were so, all he could say was that the public had been a very long time in trying to regain that monopoly. In his view the public would have a very much better chance of securing that monopoly on a proper basis when this Bill was passed, because it was practically admitted that during the last fifty or sixty years no progress had been made in the reduction of public-houses at all. The object of the Amendment was to lay down a fixed proportion of public-houses to population in every district in the country, and to do so in general terms. That was impossible, because the requirements of every district were absolutely different from those of other districts, and the hon. Member had the Report of the Commission against him. It appeared that the hon. Member also wished, in laying down his arbitrary statutory maximum or minimum, to provide an unlimited amount of compensation. His principle might be all very well if they were dealing with public funds, but was quite out of place when they were calling on the trade itself to supply the money for the insurance. He entirely disputed the suggestion that licences which had no value now would acquire a value by the passage of this Bill. They had put the clearest possible language into the Bill to prevent that.

MR. MARKHAM (Nottinghamshire, Mansfield)

said that according to a trade paper no one doubted that those who would have to pay this tax were the consumers of liquor.

MR. BOUSFIELD (Hackney, N.)

said that the complaint of the hon. Member was that in this Bill no provision was made for what he spoke of as counter attractions to the public-house, and he seemed to regard that as of more importance than the reduction of licences. He himself had always held that view, and had preached it in vain to hon. Gentlemen opposite. When the hon. Member for Wolverhampton introduced his Parish Councils Bill he moved an Amendment that parish councils should have the power to provide parish rooms which would be a counter attraction to the public-houses, but that Amendment was refused. The object of the Amend-

ment, as he gathered, was to secure a compulsory reduction in the number of licences. He himself had put on the Paper an Amendment with the object of making it the duty of magistrates to give attention to the number of public-houses in proportion to the requirements of the population. He hoped that the Government would give their attention to this matter, and would see whether they could not insert in the Bill some provision in the direction suggested in his Amendment.


said that if they were to pass a compensation scheme they should secure some substantial reduction of licences. But under the Bill there was no guarantee that there would be any reduction anywhere. It would be optional for the local justices to make a recommendation, optional for quarter sessions to accept the recommendation, and optional for quarter sessions to raise a fund. The object of this Amendment was to make it certain that there would be a reduction if the on-licences exceeded a certain number. The Amendment suggested a reasonable number in proportion to the population. In order to deal with the case of London it would be easy to institute a special class of licences for hotels, so that the ordinary drinking bar should be limited to some definite proportion. It was said that if this Amendment were adopted there would be an unlimited levy. There ought to been unlimited levy. There ought to be power to make a levy in order to raise whatever amount of money was necessary I to make the reduction that was deemed necessary.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 264; Noes, 167. (Division List No. 209.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Baird, John George Alexander Blundell, Colonel Henry
Anson, Sir William Reynell Balcarres, Lord Bond, Edward
Arkwright, John Stanhope Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Bousfield, William Robert
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Bowles, Lt.-Col. H.F (Middlesex
Arrol, Sir William Balfour, Rt. Hon. G.W. (Leeds) Brassey, Albert
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Banbury, Sir Frederick George Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Brotherton, Edward Allen
Austin, Sir John Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Bignold, Arthur Bull, William James
Bailey, James (Walworth) Bigwood, James Burdett-Coutts, W.
Bain, Colonel James Robert Bill, Charles Butcher, John George
Carlile, William Walter Hay, Hon. Claude George Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley Myers, William Henry
Cautley, Henry Strother Heaton, John Henniker Newdegate, Francis A. N.
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway,N.)
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hickman, Sir Alfred Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hoare, Sir Samuel O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hobhouse,Rt.Hn H(Somers't,E O'Dowd, John
Chamberlain, Rt.Hn J. A(Wore. Hogg. Lindsay Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Hope, J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside Parker, Sir Gilbert
Chapman, Edward Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington
Charrington, Spencer Hoult, Joseph Peel, Hn.Wm.Robert Wellesley
Clare, Octavius Leigh Houston, Robert Paterson Pemberton, John S. G.
Coates, Edward Feetham Howard, Jn.(Kent, Faversham Percy, Earl
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Pierpoint, Robert
Coghill, Douglas Harry Hudson, George Bickersteth Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Jameson, Major J. Eustace Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Plummer, Walter R.
Compton, Lord Alwyne Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Pretyman, Ernest George
Craig, CharlesCurtis( Antrim,S.) Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T.(Denbigh) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward.
Crean, Eugene Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) Pym, C. Guy
Cripps, Charles Alfred Kerr, John Quilter, Sir Cuthbert
Cross,Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Keswick, William Ratcliff, R. F.
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Kimber, Henry Reid, James (Greenock)
Cubitt, Hon. Henry King, Sir Henry Seymour Remnant, James Farquharson
Dalkeith, Earl of Knowles, Sir Lees Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Renwick, George
Davenport, William Bromley Laurie, Lieut.-General Richards, Henry Charles
Davies,Sir Horatio D.(Chatham Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Dickinson, Robert Edmond Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Dickson, Charles Scott Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N.R. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Dimsdale, Rt.Hn. Sir Joseph C. Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) Robinson, Brooke
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Llewellyn, Evan Henry Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Doogan, P. C. Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Doughty, George Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Long, Rt.Hn.Walter(Bristol,S.) Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Duke, Henry Edward Lonsdale, John Brownlee Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Lowe, Francis William Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Dyke, Rt.Hn.Sir William Hart Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Samuel, Sir Harry S.(Limehouse
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Loyd, Archie Kirkman Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Faber, Edmund B. (Hants.,W.) Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Seton-Karr, Sir Henry
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Macdona, John Gumming Sharpe, William Edward T.
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne MacIver, David (Liverpool) Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Fison, Frederick William Maconochie, A. W. Simeon, Sir Barrington
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Smith, H. C(North'mb. Tyneside
Flannery, Sir Fortescue M'Fadden, Edward Smith James Parker (Lanarks.)
Flower, Sir Ernest M'Iver,SirLewis(Edinburgh,W. Spear, John Ward
Forster, Henry William M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Stanley, Hn.Arthur (Ormskirk)
Galloway, William Johnson M'Killop W. (Sligo, North) Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset)
Gardner, Ernest Majendie, James A. H. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.)
Garfit, William Malcolm, Ian Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Gordon, Hn.J.E.(Elgin&Nairn) Martin, Richard Biddulph Stock, James Henry
Gordon, Maj. Evans (T'r H'lets) Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Gore, Hon. S.F. Ormsby-(Linc) Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir H.E.(Wigt'n Stroyan, John
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire Strutt, Hon. Charles Healey
Goulding, Edward Alfred Melville, Beresford Valentine Talbot, Lord E. (Chiehester)
Graham, Henry Robert Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Mildmay, Francis Bingham Thorburn, Sir Walter
Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury) Milvain, Thomas Tollemache, Henry James
Greene, W.Raymond- (Cambs.) Molesworth, Sir Lewis Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Grenfell, William Henry Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Tuff, Charles
Gretton, John Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.) Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Greville, Hon. Ronald Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Valentia, Viscount
Groves, James Grimble Moore, William Vincent,Col.SirC.E.H.(Sheffield
Hall, Edward Marshall Morgan David J.(Walthamstow Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Hambro, Charles Eric Morpeth, Viscount Walker, Col. William Hall
Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) Morrell, George Herbert Warde, Colonel C. E.
Hare, Thomas Leigh Morrison, James Archibald Webb, Colonel William George
Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th) Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.)
Harris, Dr. Fredk.R. (Dulwich) Mount, William Arthur Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Murray,Rt.Hn.A.Graham(Bute Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Whiteley,H.(Ashton und.Lyne) Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Wrightson, Sir Thomas and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Wilson-Todd,Sir W.H.(Yorks.) Young, Samuel
Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm Younger, William
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Price, Robert John
Ainsworth, John Stirling Hain, Edward Reckitt, Harold James
Allen, Charles P. Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale Reddy, M.
Ashton, Thomas Gair Harwood, George Rickett, J. Compton
Asquith, Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Rigg, Richard
Barlow, John Emmott Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Higham, John Sharpe Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Benn, John Williams Holland, Sir William Henry Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Black, Alexander William Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Roche, John
Boland, John Horniman, Frederick John Roe, Sir Thomas
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Rose, Charles Day
Brigg, John Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. Runciman, Walter
Broadhurst, Henry Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Russell, T. W.
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Jacoby, James Alfred Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Johnson, John (Gateshead) Schwann, Charles E.
Burke, E. Haviland- Jones William (Carnarvonshire Seely, Maj. J.E.B.(Isle of Wight
Burns, John Jordan, Jeremiah Shackleton, David James
Burt, Thomas Joyce, Michael Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford)
Caldwell, James Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan,W. Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Kitson, Sir James Shipman, Dr. John G.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Lambert, George Slack, John Bamford
Cawley, Frederick Langley, Batty Sloan, Thomas Henry
Channing, Francis Allston Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal,W.) Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Churchill, Winston Spencer Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Condon, Thomas Joseph Layland-Barratt, Francis Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Leese,Sir Joseph F.(Accrington Strachey, Sir Edward
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Leigh, Sir Joseph Sullivan, Donal
Cremer, William Randal Long, Sir John Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Crombie, John William Levy, Maurice Tennant, Harold John
Crooks, William Lloyd-George, David Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Lough, Thomas Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Cullman, J. Lundon, W. Thomas,David Alfred (Merthyr)
Dalziel, James Henry Lyell, Charles Henry Thomas, J.A(Glamorgan,Gower
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Tomkinson, James
Davies, M.Vaughan- (Cardigan) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Toulmin, George
Delany, William M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Denny, Colonel M'Crae, George Ure, Alexander
Dilke, Rt, Hon. Sir Charles Mansfield, Horace Rendall Wallace, Robert
Dobbie, Joseph Markham, Arthur Basil Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Duncan, J. Hastings Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Dunn, Sir William Moss, Samuel Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Edwards, Frank Moulton, John Fletcher White, George (Norfolk)
Elliee,Capt.EC(S.Andrw's Bghs Murphy, John White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) Newnes, Sir George Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Emmott, Alfred Norton, Capt. Cecil William Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Nussey, Thomas Willans Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Eve, Harry Trelawney O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary,Mid Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk,Mid.)
Fenwick, Charles O'Doherty, William Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. O'Malley, William Wood, James
Furness, Sir Christopher O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Woodhouse, Sir JT.(Huddersf'd
Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbert John Parrott, William Yoxall, James Henry
Goddard, Daniel Ford Partington, Oswald
Grant, Corrie Paulton, James Mellor TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Griffith, Ellis J. Philipps, John Wynford Mr. Munro Ferguson and
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Power, Patrick Joseph Mr. Herbert Lewis.

The Amendment which stands in the name of my hon. and learned friend the Member for Anglesey, and which I propose now to move, raises a question of interest and importance second to none in the whole Bill; it raises, in fact, the whole question of compensation. The Committee, I am sure, will not be surprised to hear that in submitting it I am embarrassed by the conditions under which I am compelled to speak. It is not as though I or anyone in this House was in the least degree entitled to complain of the time which has been occupied last night and this evening by previous Amendments. Point after point of the most serious importance has been barely and boldly stated to the House, and has been at once divided upon, without the advantage which, in Committee at any rate, we are accustomed to derive from the free play of informal, but not less useful, arguments across the floor of the House. A severe and, as some of my hon. friends would say, excessive self-restraint has been exercised. I am not at all sure that the results which have been achieved will be held to warrant its repetition. But at any rate, it is perfectly true that there has been no waste of time, no excess of talk, and no diversion of the attention of the House from serious and important to trivial and frivolous points. But when I approach this Amendment I cannot discuss it without considering its relation to, and its effect upon the remainder of this clause. What is the clause we are discussing? It contains twenty-two lines, of which we have discussed six. Upon the Order Paper at this moment there stand fifteen pages of Amendments, which I will not say remain for discussion, but

which are to be ignored and passed aside without any discussion at all. They embrace some of the most important features of this Bill. But how am I, in the five minutes which are still to elapse before the guillotine falls, to say anything really useful or fruitful about that which is the vital and essential principle of this Bill? The provision in the lines which I have moved to omit, the provision which in future will restrain all power to refuse or reduce licences in conformity with the limited dimensions of a fund which will be small and exiguous, and in some parts of the country, may not exist at all —this proposal, this far-reaching, deep-seated, and unprecedented revolution in the whole of our law of licensing is to pass now from this Committee unamended and even undiscussed. The procedure of the House of Commons is reduced to a farce. We are taking part in a parody of debate, and making ourselves accomplices in a caricature of the forms, and a betrayal of the spirit of Parliamentary institutions.

Amendment proposed—

"In page 1, line 10, to leave out from the world 'but' to the end of line 12."—(Mr. Asquith.)

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 279; Noes, 210. (Division List No 210.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Chapman, Edward
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Bignold, Arthur Charrington, Spencer
Anson, Sir William Reynell Bigwood, James Clare, Octavius Leigh
Arkwright, John Stanhope Bill, Charles Clive, Captain Percy A.
Arnold-Forstcr,Rt,Hn.Hugh O. Blundell, Colonel Henry Coates, Edward Feetham
Arrol, Sir William Bond, Edward Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Bousfield, William Robert Cohen, Benjamin Louis
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hn.Sir H. Bowles, Lt.-Col.H.F.(Middlesex Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole
Austin, Sir John Brassey, Albert Compton, Lord Alwyne
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Brodrick, Rt, Hon. St. John Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge
Bailey, James (Walworth) Brown, Sir Alex. H.(Shropsh-) Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.
Bain, Colonel James Robert Bull, William James Cripps, Charles Alfred
Baird, John George Alexander Burdett-Coutts, W. Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)
Balcarres, Lord Butcher, John George Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile
Baldwin, Alfred Carlile, William Walter Cubitt, Hon. Henry
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Manch'r Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Cust, Henry John C.
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Cautley, Henry Strother Dalkeith, Earl of
Balfour, Rt, Hn. GeraldW(Leeds Cavendish, V. C.W.(Derbyshire Dalrymple, Sir Charles
Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch. Cayzer, Sir Charles William Davenport, W. Bromley-
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Davies,Sir HoratioD.(Chatham
Bartley, Sir George C. T. Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Dickinson, Robert Edmond
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A.(Wore. Dickson, Charles Scott
Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C. Keswick, William Reid, James (Greenock)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Kimber, Henry Remnant, James Farquharson
Dixon-Hartland,SirFred Dixon King, Sir Henry Seymour Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. Knowles, Sir Lees Renwick, George
Doughty, George Lambton, Hon.Frederick Wm. Richards, Henry Charles
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Laurie, Lieut.-General Ridley, S.Forde'(Bethnal Green
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Law, Andrew Bonar(Glasgow) Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Duke, Henry Edward Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Lawson JohnGrant(Yorks.N.R Robinson, Brooke
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Lee,Arthur H.(Hants,Fareham Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Llewellyn, Evan Henry Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W. Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Fardell, Sir T. George Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Round, Rt. Hon. James
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r Long, Col.Charles W.(Evesham Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Long, Rt.Hn.Walter (Bristol,S) Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Lonsdale, John Brownlee Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lowe, Francis William Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Fisher, William Hayes Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Samuel,SirHarry S. (Limehouse
Fison, Frederick William Loyd, Archie Kirkman Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone,W.)
Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Seton-Karr, Sir Henry
Flower, Sir Ernest Macdona, John dimming Sharpe, William Edward T.
Forster, Henry William MacIver, David (Liverpool) Simeon, Sir Barrington
Foster, Philip S.(Warwick,S.W. Maconochie, A. W. Smith,H.C(North'mb.Tyneside
Galloway, William Johnson M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)
Gardner, Ernest M'Iver,SirLewis(Edinburgh,W. Spear, John Ward
Garfit, William M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk
Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. Majendie, James A. H. Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset)
Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin&Nairn Malcolm, Ian Stanley, Rt.Hn.Lord (Lancs.)
Gordon,Maj.Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts Martin, Richard Biddulph Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Gore, Hn. S.F. Ormsby-(Linc) Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F. Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Maxwell, Rt Hn.SirH.E(Wigt'n Stock, James Henry
Goulding, Edward Alfred Maxwell, W. J. H.(Dumfriesshire Stone, Sir Benjamin
Graham, Henry Robert Melville, Beresford Valentine Stroyan, John
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Mildmay, Francis Bingham Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.) Milvain, Thomas Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.
Grenfell, William Henry Molesworth, Sir Lewis Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth
Gretton, John Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Thorburn, Sir Walter
Greville, Hon. Ronald Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.) Tollemache, Henry James
Groves, James Grimble Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Hall, Edward Marshall Moore, William Tuff, Charles
Hambro, Charles Eric Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Hardy,Laurence(Kent, Ashford Morpeth, Viscount Valentia, Viscount
Hare, Thomas Leigh Morrell, George Herbert Vincent, Col. Sir C. F. H(Sheffield
Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th) Morrison, James Archibald Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Walker, Col. William Hall
Hay, Hon. Claude George Mount, William Arthur Warde, Colonel C.E.
Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Webb, Colonel William George
Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.) Murray, Rt. Hn. A.Graham(Bute Welby, Lt. Col.A.C.E.(Taunton
Heaton, John Henniker Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Welby, SirCharlesG.E.(Notts.
Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.) Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Myers, William Henry Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Hickman, Sir Alfred Newdegate, Francis A. N. Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne
Hoare, Sir Samuel Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Hobhouse,Rt Hn H.(Somers't,E Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Hogg, Lindsay Parker, Sir Gilbert Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington Wilson, A. Stanley (York,E.R.)
Houldsworth, Sir Win. Henry Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley Wilson-Todd, SirW.H.(Yorks.)
Hoult, Joseph Pemberton, John S. G. Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Houston, Robert Paterson Percy, Earl Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Howard, J. (Kent Faversham Pierpoint, Robert Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-
Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Pilkington, Colonel Richard Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Hudson, George Bickersteth Platt-Higgins, Frederick Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Jameson, Major G. Eustace Plummer, Walter R. Young, Samuel
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Younger, William
Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred Pretyman, Ernest George
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Kennaway, Rt.Hn.Sir John H. Pym, C. Guy TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop Rankin, Sir James and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Kerr, John Ratcliff, R. F.
Abraham, William (Cork,N.E.) Furness, Sir Christopher Partington, Oswald
Ainsworth, John Stirling Goddard, Daniel Ford Paulton, James Mellor
Allen, Charles P. Grant, Corrie Perks, Robert William
Ashton, Thomas Gair Griffith, Ellis J. Philipps, John Wynford
Asquith, Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Power, Patrick Joseph
Atherley-Jones, L. Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Price, Robert John
Barlow, John Emmott Hain, Edward Priestley, Arthur
Barran, Rowland Hirst Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Rea, Mussell
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale Reckitt, Harold James
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Harwood, George Reddy, M.
Bell, Richard Hayden, John Patrick Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Benn, John Williams Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Rickett, J. Compton
Black, Alexander William Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Rigg, Richard
Boland, John Higham, John Sharpe Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Holland, Sir William Henry Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Brigg, John Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Broadhurst, Henry Horniman, Frederick John Robson, William Snowdon
Brown, GeorgeM.( Edinburgh) Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Roche, John
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk Roe, Sir Thomas
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Hutton, Alfred E. (Mortley) Rose, Charles Day
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Jacoby, James Alfred Runciman, Walter
Burke, E. Haviland- Johnson, John (Gateshead) Russell, T. W.
Burns, John Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Burt, Thomas Jones, William, Carnarvonshire Schwann, Charles E.
Buxton, Sydney Charles Jordan, Jeremiah Seely, Maj. J.E.B (Isle of Wight)
Caldwell, James Joyce, Michael Shackleton, David James
Cameron, Robert Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan,W.) Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Campbell, John (Armagh,S.) Kilbride, Denis Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Kitson, Sir James Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Cawley, Frederick Lambert, George Sheehy, David
Channing, Francis Allston Langley, Batty Shipman, Dr. John G.
Churchill, Winston Spencer Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) Slack, John Bamford
Condon, Thomas Joseph Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Sloan, Thomas Henry
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Layland-Barratt, Francis Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark Leamy, Edmund Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Crean, Eugene Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Cremer, William Randal Leigh, Sir Joseph Stevenson, Francis S.
Crombie, John William Leng, Sir John Strachey, Sir Edward
Crooks, William Levy, Maurice Sullivan, Donal
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Lewis, John Herbert Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Cullinan, J. Lloyd-George, David Tennant, Harold John
Dalziel, James Henry Lough, Thomas Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Lundon, W. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan Lyell, Charles Henry Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)
Delany, William Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Thomas, J A (GlamorganGower
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Tillet, Louis John
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. MacVeagh, Jeremiah Tomkinson, James
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles M'Crae, George Toulmin, (George
Dobbie, Joseph M'Fadden, Edward Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Doogan, P. C. M'Kenna, Reginald Ure, Alexander
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Wallace, Robert
Duncan, J. Hastings M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Walton, JohnLawson(Leeds,S.)
Dunn, Sir William Mansfield, Horace Rendall Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Edwards, Frank Markham, Arthur Basil Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Elibank, Master of Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Wason John Cathcart (Orkney)
Ellice,Capt. EE(S.Andrw'sBghs Morley, Charles (Breconshire) White, George (Norfolk)
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.). Moss, Samuel White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Emmott, Alfred Moulton, John Fletcher Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Evans,Sir Francis H (Maidstone Murphy, John Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Nannetti, Joseph P. Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Eve, Harry Trelawney Newnes, Sir George Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk, Mid.)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Fenwick, Charles Norton, Capt. Cecil William Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Nussey, Thomas Willans Wood, James
Field, William O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid Woodhouse,Sir J.T (Huddersf'd
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond O' Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Yoxall, James Henry
Flavin, Michael Joseph O'Doherty, William
Flynn, James Christopher O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) O'Dowd, John Herbert Gladstone and Mr.
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry O'Malley, William William M'Arthur.
Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Fuller, J. M. F. Parrott, William

Question, "That the Amendment be made," put, and agreed to.

And, it being after Eleven of the clock, the Chairman proceeded, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 5th July, successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given, and on every Question necessary to dispose of the allotted Business to be concluded on the first allotted Day.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 13, after the word 'an,' to insert the word 'existing.'—(Mr. Secretary A hers-Douglas.)

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 16, after the word 'district,' to insert the words 'on the consideration by them, in accordance with the Licensing Acts, 1828 to 1902, of applications for the renewal of licences.'"—(Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 17, after the word 'particular,' to insert the word 'existing.'"—(Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 19, after the word 'an,' to insert the word "existing."—(Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 23, after the word 'premises,' to insert the words 'and unless it appears to quarter sessions unnecessary, any other persons appearing to them to be interested in the question of the renewal of the licence of those premises.'"—(Mr. Secretary Akers Donglas).

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The Committee divided; Ayes 285; Noes, 198. (Division List No. 211.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Faber, Edmund B.( Hants, W.)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A (Wore. Fardell, Sir T. George
Arkwright, John Stanhope Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Fergusson,Rt. Hn.Sir J. (Manc'r
Arnold-Forster, Rt.Hn. Hugh O Chapman, Edward Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst
Arrol, Sir William Charrington, Spencer Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Clare, Octavius Leigh Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Clive, Captain Percy A. Fisher, William Hayes
Austin, Sir John Coates, Edward Feetham Fison, Frederick William
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-
Bailey, James (Walworth) Cohen, Benjamin Louis Fitzroy, Hn.Edward Algernon
Bain, Colonel James Robert Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Balcarres, Lord Compton, Lord Alwyne Flavin, Michael Joseph
Baldwin, Alfred Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Flower, Sir Ernest
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Cox,Irwin Edward Bainbridge Forster, Henry William
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim,S. Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.
Balfour,Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds Cripps, Charles Alfred Galloway, William Johnson
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Cross,Herb, Shepherd (Bolton) Gardner, Ernest
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Garfit, William
Bartley, Sir George C. T. Cubitt, Hon. Henry Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Cust, Henry John C. Gordon, Hn J.E.(Elgin&Nairn)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Dalkeith, Earl of Gordon,Maj Evans (T'rH'mlet
Bignold, Arthur Dalrymple, Sir Charles Gore, Hn. S. F.Ormsby- (Line.)
Bigwood, James Davenport, W. Bromley Goulding, Edward Alfred
Bill, Charles Davies, SirHoratio D.(Chatham Graham, Henry Robert
Blundell, Colonel Henry Denny, Colonel Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Bond, Edward Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny,N.) Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)
Bousfield, William Robert Dickinson, Robert Edmond Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)
Bowles, Lt.-Col.H.F.(Middlesex Dickson, Charles Scott Grenfell, William Henry
Brassey, Albert Dimsdale,Rt.Hn.Sir Joseph C. Gretton, John
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Greville, Hon. Ronald
Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.) Dixon-Hartlaud,SirFred Dixon Groves, James Grimble
Bull, William James Doogan, P. C. Hall, Edward Marshall
Burdett-Couts, W. Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. Hambro, Charles Erie
Butcher, John George Doughty, George Hardy,Laurence(Kent Ashford
Carlile, William Walter Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- Hare, Thomas Leigh
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Doxford, Sir William Theodore Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)
Cautley, Henry Strother Duke, Henry Edward Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich)
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Hay, Hon. Claude George
Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Massey-Mainwairing,Hn. W. F Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Heath, James (Staffords., N.W. Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir HE (Wigt'n Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Heaton, John Henniker Maxwell W.J. H (Dumfriesshire Sackville,Col. S. G. Stopford-
Holder, Augustus Melville, Beresford Valentine Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Henderson,Sir A. (Stafford, W.) Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Samuel,Sir HarryS,(Limehouse
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Hickman, Sir Alfred Milvain, Thomas Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Hoare, Sir Samuel Molesworth, Sir Lewis Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Hogg, Lindsay Montagu, G.(Huntingdon) Seton-Karr, Sir Henry
Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hauls.) Sharpe, William Edward T.
Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Simeon, Sir Harrington
Hoult, Joseph Moore, William Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Houston, Robert Paterson Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow Smith, HC (North'mb,Tyneside
Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham) Morpeth, Viscount Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)
Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Morrell, George Herbert Spear, John Ward
Hudson, George Bickersteth Morrison, James Archibald Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk
Jameson, Major J. Eustace Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Mount, William Arthur Stanley,Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.)
Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Stewart, Sir Mark J.M'Taggart
Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton Murray, Rt Hn. A.Graham (Bute Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Murray,Charles J. (Coventry) Stock, James Henry
Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Stone, Sir Benjamin
Kenyon, Hn. Geo. F. (Denbigh) Myers, William Henry Stroyan, John
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. Newdegate, Francis A. N. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Kerr, John Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Keswick, William O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ
Kimber, Henry Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Thorburn, Sir Walter
King, Sir Henry Seymour Parker, Sir Gilbert Tollemache, Henry James
Knowles, Sir Lees Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Laurie, Lieut.-General Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley Tuff, Charles
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Pemberton, John S. G. Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Percy, Earl Valentia, Viscount
Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N.R. Pierpoint. Robert Vincent, Col. Sir C.EH (Sheffield
Lee, Arthur H (Hants. Fareham Pilkington, Colonel Richard Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Llewellyn, Evan Henry Platt-Higgins, Frederick Walker, Col. William Hall
Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Plummer, Walter R. Warde, Colonel C. E.
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Powell, Sir Francis Sharpe Webb, Colonel William George
Long, Col. Chafe. W.(Evesham Pretyman, Ernest George Welby, Lt. -Col. A. C. E. (Taunton
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol S. Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts
Lonsdale, John Brownlee Pym, C. Guy Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Lowe, Francis William Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Rankin, Sir James Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Ratcliff, R. F. Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft Reid, James (Greenock) Williams, Colonel Lt. (Dorset)
Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth Remnant, James Farquharson Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon, Alfred Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.
Macdona, John Gumming Renwick, George Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)
MacIver, David (Liverpool) Richards, Henry Charles Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Maconochie, A. W. Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green Wortley, Rt. Hon.C. B. Stuart-
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W Robertson, Herb. (Hackney) Young, Samuel
M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Robinson, Brooke Younger, William
M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Maejndie, James A. H. Rollit, Sir Albert Kayo TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir
Malcolm, Ian Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Alexander Acland - Hood
Martin, Richard Biddulph Round, Rt. Hon. James and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Abraham, William(Cork, N. E.) Bolton, Thomas Dolling Channing, Francis Allston
Ainsworth, John Stirling Brigg, John Churchill, Winston Spencer
Allen, Charles P. Broadhurst, Henry Condon, Thomas Joseph
Ambrose, Robert Brown, George M.(Edinburgh) Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)
Ashton, Thomas Gair Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Cremer, William Randal
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Crombie, John William
Atherley-Jones, L. Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Crooks, William
Barlow, John Emmott Burke, E. Haviland- Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)
Barran, Rowland Hirst Burns, John Cullinan, J.
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Burt, Thomas Dalziel, James Henry
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Caldwell, James Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)
Bell, Richard Cameron, Robert Davies,M. Vaughan-(Cardigan
Benn, John Williams Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Delany, William
Black, Alexander William Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Boland, John Cawley, Frederick Dobbie, Joseph
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) Roe, Sir Thomas
Duncan, J. Hastings Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Rose, Charles Day
Dunn, Sir William Layland-Barratt, Francis Runciman, Walter
Edwards, Prank Leamy, Edmund Russell, T. W.
Elibank, Master of Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Ellice,CaptE.C(S.Andrw'sBghs Leigh, Sir Joseph Schwann, Charles E.
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) Leng, Sir John Seely, Maj. J. E. B.(IsleofWight
Emmott, Alfred Levy, Maurice Shackleton, David James
Esmonde, Sir Thomas Lewis, John Herbert Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Evans,Sir Francis H (Maidstone Lloyd-George, David Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Lough, Thomas Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Eve, Harry Trelawney Lundon, W. Sheehy, David
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Lyell, Charles Henry Shipman, Dr. John G.
Fenwick, Charles MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Slack, John Bamford
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Sloan, Thomas Henry
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond M'Crae, George Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Flynn, James Christopher M'Fadden, Edward Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) M'Kenna, Reginald Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Stevenson, Francis S.
Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. Mansfield, Horace Rendall Sullivan, Donal
Fuller, J. M. F. Markham, Arthur Basil Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Furness, Sir Christopher Mooney, John J. Tennant, Harold John
Go ldard, Daniel Ford Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen), E.
Grant, Corrie Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Girffith, Ellis J. Moss, Samuel Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Moulton, John Fletcher Thomas, J. A(Glamorgan,Gower
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Murphy, John Tillet, Louis John
Ham, Edward Newnes, Sir George Tomkinson, James
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard R. Norton, Capt, Cecil William Toulmin, George
Harcourt, Lewis V (Rossendale Nussey, Thomas Willans Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Harwood, George O'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary Mid Ure, Alexander
Hayden, John Patrick O'Doherty, William Wallace, Robert
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Dowd, John Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Higham, John Sharpe O'Malley, William Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Holland, Sir William Henry O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Wason, JohnCathcart (Orkney)
Hope, J. Deans (Fife, West) Parrott, William White, George (Norfolk)
Horniman, Frederick John Partington, Oswald White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Humphreys-Owens, Arthur C. Paulton, James Mellor Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Hutchinson, Dr. Chas. Fredk. Perks, Robert William Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Philipps, John Wynford Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Jacoby, James Alfred Power, Patrick Joseph Wilson, Fred.W.(Norfolk.Mid.)
Johnson, John (Gateshead) Price, Robert John Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)
Joicey, Sir James Priestley, Arthur Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Jones,DavidBrynmor (Swansea Rea, Russell Wood, James
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Reckitt, Harold James Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Hudd'rsfi'd
Jordan, Jeremiah Reddy, N. Yoxall, James Henry
Joyce, Michael Rickett, J. Compton
Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan, W. Rigg, Richard TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.
Kilbride, Denis Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Herbert Gladstone and Mr.
Kitson, Sir James Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) William M'Arthur
Lambert, George Robson, William Snowdon
Langley, Batty Roche, John

Question, "That the Amendment be made," put, and agreed to.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)

said he wished to ask on a point of order whether those Members of the House who were personally and pecuniarily interested in the result of the division were entitled to vote.


The Rule of the House has always been that any Member who has a direct pecuniary interest is liable to have his vote struck off. I think I have correctly stated the Rule.


asked, as a matter of practice, in order to avoid complications and difficulties in the future, at what time should objection be taken to the votes of Members who had a direct personal pecuniary interest? The proper manner, he knew, would be to take objection immediately after the division, but there were so many gentlemen involved that they could not immediately bring all the votes that should be challenged to the notice of the House. Could they save themselves by taking formal exception now and giving notice that when the division list was printed they would bring the question before the House?


The practice has always been to call the attention of the House to the matter directly the division is taken.

Question put, "That Clause 1, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 281; Noes, 194. (Division List No. 212.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham Hozier, HonJamesHenryCecil
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Hudson, George Bickersteth
Anson, Sir William Reynell Dickson, Charles Scott Jameson, Major J. Eustace
Arkwright, John Stanhope Hinsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C. Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse
Arnold-Forster,Rt. Hn.HughO. Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. ArthurFred.
Arrol, Sir William Dixon-Hartland, SirFred Dixon Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Doogan, R. C. Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. SirH. Dorington, Rt.Hon. Sir John E. Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.( Denbigh)
Austin, Sir John Doughty, George Kenyon-Slaney,Col. W.(Salop.
Bagot, Capt. Joseeline FitzRoy Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Kerr, John
Bailey, James (Walworth) Doxford, Sir William Theodore Keswick, William
Bain, Colonel James Robert Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Kimber, Henry
Baird, John George Alexander Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart King, Sir Henry Seymour
Balcarres, Lord Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Knowles, Sir Lees
Baldwin, Alfred Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W. Laurie, Liet.-General
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Fardell, Sir T. George Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Fergusson, Rt.HnSirJ.(Mane'r Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)
Balfour,Rt.Hn.Gerald W.(Leeds Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Lawson, JohnGrant( Yorks. N. R
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Chritsch. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lee, Arthur H.(Hants,Fareham
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Fisher, William Hayes Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Hartley, Sir George C. T. Fison, Frederick William Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Fitzroy, Hon.Edward Algernon Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham
Bignold, Arthur Flannery, Sir Fortescue Long, Rt.Hn.Walter (Bristol, S.
Bigwood, James Flower, Sir Ernest Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Bill, Charles Forster, Henry William Lowe, Francis William
Blundell, Colonel Henry Foster, PhilipS.(Warwick,S.W. Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)
Bond, Edward Galloway, William Johnson Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Gardner, Ernest Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)
Bowles, Lt.-Col. H.F.(Middlesex Garfit, William Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth
Brassey, Albert Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Gordon, Hn. J.E.(Elgin&Nairn Macdona, John Cumming
Brotherton, Edward Allen Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.) Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby (Line.) Maconochie, A. W.
Bull, William James Goulding, Edward Alfred M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Burdett-Coutts, W. Graham, Henry Robert M'Iver, SirLewis( Edinburgh,W
Butcher, John George Gray, Ernest (West Ham) M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
Carlile, William Walter Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.) Majendie, James A. H.
Cautley, Henry Strother Grenfell, William Henry Malcolm, Ian
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Gretton, John Martin, Richard Biddulph
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Greville, Hon. Ronald Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Groves, James Grimble Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H.E(Wigt'n
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hall, Edward Marshall Maxwell, W.J.H(Dumfriesshire
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A(Wore. Hambro, Charles Eric Melville, Beresford Valentine
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Hardy, Laurence( Kent, Ashford Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M
Chapman, Edward Hare, Thomas Leigh Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Charrington, Spencer Harris, F.Leverton(Tynemouth Milvain, Thomas
Clare, Octavius Leigh Harris, Dr. Fredk. R.(Dulwieh) Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Clive, Captain Percy A. Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Coates, Edward Feetham Hay, Hon. Claude George Montagu, Hn. J.Scott (Hants.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Heath, James (Staffords.,N.W.) Moore, William
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Heaton, John Henniker Morgan, David J.( Walthamstow
Compton, Lord Alwyne Helder, Augustus Morpeth, Viscount
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Henderson, Sir A.(Stafford, W.) Morrell, George Herbert
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S. Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Morrison, James Archibald
Cripps, Charles Alfred Hickman, Sir Alfred Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Hoare, Sir Samuel Mount, William Arthur
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Hogg, Lindsay Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside Murray,Rt Hn A.Graham( Bute
Gust, Henry John C. Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Dalkeith, Earl of Hoult, Joseph Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Houston, Robert Paterson Myers, William Henry
Davenport, W. Bromley- Howard, John(KentFaversham Newdegate, Francis A. N.
Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway,N. Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Round, Rt. Hon. James Tuff, Charles
Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Parker, Sir Gilbert Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Valentia, Viscount
Pease, HerbertPike( Darlington Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford Vincent,Col Sir C.E.H(Sheffield
Peel, Hn.Wm. Robert Wellesley Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Vincent, Sir Eagar (Exeter)
Pemberton, John S. G. Samuel,Sir HarryS.(Limehouse Walker, Col. William Hall
Perey, Earl Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Warde, Col. C. E.
Pierpoint, Robert Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Webb, Colonel William George
Pilkington, Colonel Richard Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln Welby, Lt.-Col.A.C.E(Tauhton
Platt-Higgins, Frederick Seton-Karr, Sir Henry Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.
Plummer, Walter R. Sharpe, William Edward T. Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Simeon, Sir Harrington Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Pretyman, Ernest George Skewes-Cox, Thomas Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund Lyne
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Smith,H.C.(North' mb.Tyneside Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Pym, C. Guy Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Spear, John Ward Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Rankin, Sir James Stanley, Hon.Arthur(Ormskirk Wilson, A.Stanley (York,E.R.)
Ratcliff, R. F. Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset Wilson-Todd, SirW.H.(Yorks)
Reid, James (Greenock) Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes. Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Remnant, James Farquharson Stewart, SirMark J.M'Taggart Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Renshaw, Sir Charles Pine Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Renwick, George Stock, James Henry Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Richards, Henry Charles Stone, Sir Benjamin Young, Samuel
Ridley, S. Forde(BethnalGreen Stroyan, John Younger, William
Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir
Robinson, Brooke Talbot, Rt.Hn.J.G(Oxf'd Univ. Alexander Acland-Hood and
Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Thorburn, Sir Walter Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Rollit, Sir Albert Kayo Tollemache, Henry James
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E. Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan Horniman, Frederick John
Ainsworth, John Stirling Delany, William Hutchinson, Dr.CharlesFredk.
Allen, Charles P. Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)
Ambrose, Robert Dobbie, Joseph Jacoby, James Alfred
Ashton, Thomas Gair Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Johnson, John (Gateshead)
Asquith,Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Duncan, J. Hastings Joicey, Sir James
Atherley-Jones, L. Dunn, Sir William Jones, DavidBrynmor(Swansea
Barlow, John Emmott Edwards, Frank Jones, William(Carnarvonshire
Barran, Rowland Hirst Elibank, Master of Jordan, Jeremiah
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Elhco,CaptE.C.(StAndrw'sBghs Joyce, Michael
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan,W
Bell, Richard Emmott, Alfred Kilbride, Denis
Benn, John Williams Esmonde, Sir Thomas Kitson, Sir James
Black, Alexander William Evans, Sir Francis H(Maidstone Lambert, George
Boland, John Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Langley, Batty
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Eve, Harry Trelawney Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)
Brigg, John Farquharson, Dr. Robert Layland-Barratt, Francis
Broadhurst, Henry Fenwick, Charles Leese, Sir Joseph F(Accrington
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Leigh, Sir Joseph
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Leng, Sir John
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Flavin, Michael Joseph Levy, Maurice
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Flynn, James Christopher Lewis, John Herbert
Burns, John Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Lloyd-George, David
Burt, Thomas Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lough, Thomas
Caldwell, James Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. Lundon, W.
Cameron, Robert Furness, Sir Christopher Lyell, Charles Henry
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Goddard, Daniel Ford Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Grant, Corrie MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Cawley, Frederick Griffith, Ellis J. MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Charming, Francis Allston Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill M'Crae, George
Churchill, Winston Spencer Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton M'Fadden, Edward
Condon, Thomas Joseph Hain, Edward M'Kenna, Reginald
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale Mansfield, Horace Rendall
Cremer, William Randal Harwood, George Markham, Arthur Basil
Crombie, John William Hayden, John Patrick Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Crooks, William Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Morley, Charles (Breconshire)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Moss, Samuel
Cullman, J Higham, John Sharpe Moulton, John Fletcher
Dalziel, James Henry Holland, Sir William Henry Murphy, John
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Newnes, Sir George
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Rose, Charles Day Thomas, J. A(Glamorgan,Gower
Nussey, Thomas Willans Runciman, Walter Tillet, Louis John
O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid. Russell, T. W. Tomkinson, James
O'Doherty, William Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
O'Dowd, John Schwann, Charles R. Ure, Alexander
O'Malley, William Seely, Maj. J.E.B.(Isle of Wight Wallace, Robert
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Shackleton, David James Walton, John Lawson(Leeds,S.)
Parrott, William Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Partington, Oswald Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Paulton, James Mellor Sheehan, Daniel Daniel Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney)
Perks, Robert William Sheehy, David White, George (Norfolk)
Philipps, John Wynford Shipman, Dr. John G. White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Power, Patrick Joseph Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Price, Robert John Slack, John Bamford Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Priestley, Arthur Sloan, Thomas Henry Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Rea, Russell Smith, Samuel (Flint) Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk,Mid.
Reckitt, Harold James Soames, Arthur Wellesley Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Reddy, M. Stanhope, Hon. Philip James Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Riekett, J. Compton Stevenson, Francis S. Wood, James
Rigg, Richard Sullivan, Donal Woodhouse, Sir J.T. (Hudd'rsfi'd
Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Taylor, Theodore C.(Radeliffe) Yoxall, James Henry
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Tennant, Harold John
Robson, William Snowdon Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr
Roche, John Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.) Herbert Gladstone and Mr.
Roe, Sir Thomas Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr William M'Arthur.

Question put, and agreed to.


Mr. Chairman, I desire to call your attention to the fact that in the last division a number of Members voted in contravention of a Standing Order of the House. I refer to Order No. 143 which precribes that— A Member may not vote on any question in which he has a direct pecuniary interest. I am going to submit to you the names of several Members who have a direct pecuniary interest in the subject-matter of the last division, and who voted in support of that interest. There have been two divisions on the question of compensation—one at eleven o'clock and the other the last division. In the first the majority was sixty-nine, and of those sixty-three had a direct pecuniary interest in the subject. I will pick out one or two instances and ask the judgment of the House upon them. I will take first the case of the hon. Member for South Salford. I submit that that hon. Member has a direct pecuniary interest in the vote he has recorded; it was a vote in favour of giving compensation for the first time in respect of licences disallowed. Under the present law he would receive no compensation in respect of houses the licences of which were refuse renewal by the magistrates. The moment this Bill becomes law it will add enormously to the value of his property; it will appreciate the value of the brewery shares he holds; and in respect of any houses which, in future, are disallowed he will receive a direct pecuniary advantage. In the circumstances, I submit that the vote of the hon. Member should be disallowed, and I move that the vote of the hon. Member for South Salford in the last division be disallowed on the ground that he had a direct pecuniary interest in the vote which he recorded.


There is no Standing Order that is applicable to the case. The book from which the hon. Member has quoted is not the Standing Orders, although I have no doubt that they are correctly stated in that book. The last ruling that I can find on the subject occurred on the Local Government (Ireland) Bill, 1898, when Mr. Speaker ruled as follows — The Rule of the House is well understood. There must be a direct pecuniary interest of a private and particular nature, and not of a public and general nature; and where the question before the House is of a public and general nature, and incidentally involves the pecuniary interests, of a class which includes Members of the House, they are not prevented by the Rules of the House from voting. Therefore I do not think the Motion of the hon. Member would be in order.


I understand that Mr. Speaker's ruling was that where the pecuniary advantage was incidental the general rule would not apply. I submit, however, that here the advantage is not incidental, but that the whole object and purpose of this Bill and this clause is to confer a direct pecuniary interest upon this class, and, as a matter of fact, does confer it. Therefore, I submit, this case comes within the Standing Order.


I know that view is taken by the hon. Member and by a great many other hon. Members, but I think he will admit that it is not the universal view. [OPPOSITION cries of "It ought to be left to the House."] There is also this to be said, that it is perfectly possible that the hon. Member's financial position will not be affected in any way. [OPPOSITION cries of "Let him say whether or not it is."] Will hon. Members kindly allow me to finish the sentence? Supposing that none of the licences in which he is interested are affected. The interest of the hon. Member is not of that direct personal character to which the ruling of Mr. Speaker refers.

MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)

May I call your attention to the Rule which says— The Member whose vote is questioned by such a Motion may rise in his place to explain his position.


I have already said that for the reasons I have given I do not think such a Motion as that which has been suggested can be properly moved.

MR. THOMAS SHAW (Hawick Burghs)

As I understand, you have put the supposition to the Committee that the interest of the hon. Member may not be affected. I respectfully submit to you, Sir, that we should have that as a matter of fact, or otherwise, stated by the hon. Member.

MR. EMMOTT (Oldham)

May I quote a specific case? I believe it is the fact that the hon. Member had negotiations with the justices of Manchester in regard to certain houses in which he is interested and an arrangement had been practically come to whereby the licences of those houses were to be surrendered. But owing to the interview between the Prime Minister and the brewers a year ago—I think the hon. Member's own avowal has acknowledged that—those negotiations fell through. Can it, therefore, be argued after that that the hon. Member is not directly interested.


I do not know anything about the facts referred to by the hon. Member. I base myself upon the ruling of Mr. Speaker in the case to which I have referred '….where the question. … is of a public and general nature— I think it is so in this case—["No."]— and incidently involves the pecuniary interest of a class which includes Members of the House they are not prevented by the Rules of the House from voting.


On the point of order may I submit that this is not a measure of a public nature; it does not incidentally include a class. It refers entirely to a class, and only to that class.


I cannot accept the view of the hon. Member that this Bill does not deal with matters of a public nature.

MR. MOULTON (Cornwall, Launceston)

May I point out that the rule begins by saying, "A Member may not vote on any question in which he has a pecuniary interest"?


What Rule is that?


Rule 143. Surely it is a question of fact whether or not the Member whose vote is challenged has a direct pecuniary interest. May I suggest that it is not for you, Sir, as Chairman of Committees, to be, in your official character, so well-acquainted with his private affairs as to be able to pronounce whether a Member has or has not a direct pecuniary interest? The ruling that was given in May with regard to that says— The interest must be a direct pecuniary interest, and separately belonging to the persons whose votes are questioned and not in common with the rest of His Majesty's subjects. The hon. Member put it as a question of fact that in this case the vote with regard to the compensation for licences is a vote in a matter in which the Member, whose vote is challenged, has a direct pecuniary interest, and I submit that the House has a right to have that—


The hon. Member is entitled to submit a point of order to me, but I do not think he will be in order in making a speech on it. May I point out to the hon. Member that what he has quoted from is really a manual or guide? He has not quoted from the Standing Orders. The Standing Orders of the House do not refer to this matter, but I have quoted from the last decision of Mr. Speaker on the subject. Mr. Speaker decides points of order as they rise in the House, and it is my duty to decide upon points of order that arise in Committee.


said, on the point of order, Sir, may I ask whether the conduct of the hon. Member in question falls within the ruling of Mr. Speaker which you have quoted, and is not rather a matter for the House than the Chair?


If it had been, Mr. Speaker would not have ruled it.

And, it being after Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; again upon Monday next.

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