HC Deb 05 July 1904 vol 137 cc727-68

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith)

in the Chair.]

Clause 1:—

MR. HELME (Lancashire, Lancaster)

said the word he asked the Committee to insert after the word unsuitable would make it perfectly clear in the future that the magistrates could exercise their discretion in the matter of the renewal of licences quite apart from the structure itself. Under the unusual circumstances in which the Committee at present found itself by the closure Motion just adopted he gathered that it was not the wish of the Government that he should occupy the time of the Committee by giving his reasons for moving this Amendment and he therefore asked the Committee to accept it on the ground that its meaning was manifest, and its object was good and it was of the very greatest practical importance. If the Government would not have discussion he would throw on them the responsibility of recording their votes to destroy the effective control of the justices if that was their desire. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 7, after the word 'unsuitable,' to insert the word 'otherwise."—(Mr. Helme.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'otherwise' be there inserted."

MR. H. C. RICHARDS (Finsbury, E.),

who was continually interrupted by cries? of "Divide," said the Committee was being treated with scant courtesy by his hon. friend who, speaking as a magistrate, had moved this Amendment without giving the House his reasons for so doing. He, as a lawyer, wanted to know what it was the hon. Member was asking the Committee to do. He thought the Committee had already settled this principle. There had been three days discussion upon it, and he thought it was quite clear that, while they had no intention of giving unsuitable tenants and tenants of unsuitable premises a fresh lease of life, there was no intention to inflict on the present licence-holders a new disqualification. If this Amendment was carried it would be extremely difficult for the various benches of magistrates to know what the alteration in the law was if the words "otherwise unsuitable" were put into the Bill. A bench of magistrates for any reason or lack of reason, for personal pique because they did not like the man, would be able to dispossess him without compensation. How unfair that would be after what had been said with regard to the ante-1869 licences that, although the houses were inmost cases unsuitable, the holders of those licences should have compensation. If this Amendment were carried there was a chance of their losing their licences without compensation. The question had been raised as to the house being unsuitable because it was next to a chapel, church or school, but if that house was carrying on its business in accordance with the existing law it could not be said it was unsuitable because of its position in a neigh-bourhood which in all probability had grown up around it. Another thing they had to consider was that premises which might have been suitable fifty or sixty years ago might not in the altered circumstances of to-day be regarded as suitable, and it would be a monstrous thing if the old licences were taken away without any reason and without any compensation. He appealed to the Government not to accept the Amendment.

SIR ROBERT REID (Dumfries Burghs),

in supporting the Amendment, said they were fighting this Bill, with a very strong feeling against it, under very exceptional conditions. All this Amendment meant was that the local justices were to keep in their own hands the discretion of renewals or non-renewals on the ground of structural deficiencies or of premises unsuitable otherwise, as the Bill stood the word "unsuitable" was governed by the word "structural." This should not be so, it ought to be unsuitability of any legal kind. Was it fair to attenuate the small space of time at their disposal either by the absence of Gentlemen who might be present or by speaking against time for the purpose of preventing other Amendments from being considered? He appealed to every right-minded man not to act in that way.


did not think there was any occasion for the outburst of his hon. and learned friend. There had been only one speech from the Unionist side of the House, and he did not suppose his hon. and learned friend would go so far as to say that not a word was to be said from that side of the House. He did not know how he was to treat this as a serious Amendment when the hon Member who introduced it said he did not think it necessary to give any reasons in support of it. He could not accept the Amendment because by so doing he would take away the whole foundation of the argument with which he successfully resisted the Amendment to leave out the word "unsuitable," which the hon. and learned Member for Shrewsbury moved on a previous occasion. To put in this word "otherwise" would be to leave it open to the magistrates, through no default whatever on the part of the licence-holder, to confiscate the licence and the compensation for which he had subscribed. Suppose that a church or school were built near an old-established licensed house, and the magistrates came to the conclusion that, owing to such proximity, that was no longer a suitable place for the licensed house, what default was there on the part of the licence-holder? The truth was this Amendment, small as it might seem, would strike at the foundation of the Bill; for the whole principle upon which the Bill had been framed was that of allowing people to insure their premises if those premises were to be taken for the public benefit. It had been assumed that because a man got compensation, therefore he would be anxious to have his licence taken away. No such thing would follow at all. In many cases the compensation might not be anything like as much as was made out of the premises; and there was also an additional hold over a man who had a licence of this kind, for if he did not keep the premises in a condition of which the magistrates approved he might be put into one of the categories under the Bill which would deprive him of compensation altogether. Surely a man who knew that in order to get compensa-everything depended on the way in which he conducted the premises was far more likely to strive to carry out the wishes of the magistrates than a man who practically lost nothing when his premises were taken away. Under the circumstances they could not possibly accept the Amendment.

MR. H. D. GREENE (Shrewsbury)

said he was glad to hear that the Government did not intend to accept this Amendment. At the same time he thought there was abundant justification for the Amendment being moved. There was an ambiguity in the language of the Bill in respect to this matter which the Government ought to clear up. This Clause was framed to provide a very pretty law suit for the benefit, no doubt, of a very deserving class. It would be far better for the Solicitor-General to deal with the matter now. As to whether the word "structural" governed the word "unsuitable" the Solicitor-General interpreted the clause one way and another hon. Member on his side of

the House interpreted it another. The same diversity of opinion existed on the other side. As it stood the question must be raised either on a case stated for the High Court or at quarter sessions. He held that the word structurally ought to be inserted.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 125; Noes, 177. (Division List No. 194.)

Ainsworth, John Stirling Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Dowd, John
Atherley-Jones, L. Higham, John Sharpe O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Barran, Rowland Hirst Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) Parrott, William
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Perks, Robert William
Black, Alexander William Horniman, Frederick John Power, Patrick Joseph
Bolton, Thomas Boiling Jacoby, James Alfred Rea, Russell
Brigg, John Johnson, John (Gateshead) Reid,Sir R.Threshie(Dumfries)
Broadhurst, Henry Jones, Davies Brynmor(Swansea Rigg, Richard
Burke, E. Havilend- Jordan, Jeremiah Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Burt, Thomas Joyce, Michael Roche, John
Caldwell, James Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan,W. Russell, T. W.
Cameron, Robert Kilbride, Denis Shackleton, David James
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Langley, Batty Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Channing, Francis Allston Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Layland-Barratt, Francis Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Leigh, Sir Joseph Sheehy, David
Cremer, William Randal Levy, Maurice Shipman, Dr. John G.
Crooks, William Lewis, John Herbert Slack, John Bamford
Cullinan, J. Lloyd-George, David Sloan, Thomas Henry
Dalziel, James Henry Lundon, W. Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Strachey, Sir Edward
Delany, William M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Sullivan, Donal
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) M'Crae, George Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles M'Fadden, Edward Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Donelan, Captain A. M'Hugh, Patrick A. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Doogan, P. C. M'Kean, John Thomas,David Alfred(Merthyr)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) M'Kenna, Reginald Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower
Edwards, Frank M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Tomkinson, James
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Mansfield, Horace Rendall Toulmin, George
Eve, Harry Trelawney Markham, Arthur Basil Wallace, Robert
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Mitchell,Edw.(Fermanagh, N.) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Fenwick, Charles Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Moss, Samuel White, George (Norfolk)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Moulton, John Fletcher Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)
Flavin, Michael Joseph Murphy, John Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Newnes, Sir George Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Fuller, J. M. F. O'Brien,Kondal(Tipperary Mid Wilson,Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Gladstone,Rt.Hn.HerbertTohn O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Yoxall, James Henry
Goddard, Daniel Fora O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Grant, Corrie O'Connor, James (Wicklow,W.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Griffith, Ellis J. O'Doherty, William Helme and Mr. Trevelyan.
Guest, Hon. lvor Churchill O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Bain, Colonel James Robert Bignold, Arthur
Allhusen, Augustus HenryEden Balcarres, Lord Bigweod, James
Anson, Sir William Reynell Baldwin, Alfred Bill, Charles
Arnold-Forater.Rt.Hn.HughO. Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Maneh'r Blundell, Colonel Henry
Arrol, Sir William Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Bond, Edward
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Balfour,RtHn.GeraldW.(Leeds Bowles,Lt.-Col.H.F.(MiddJesex
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hn. Sir H. Banbury, Sir Frederick George Brassey, Albert
Austin, Sir John Beach,RtHn.SirMichael Hicks Brodriek, Rt. Hon. St. John
Bailey, James (Walworth) Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Brotherton, Edward Allen
Bull, William James Hobhouse,Rt. Hn. H.(Somers't E Reid, Tames (Greenock)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hogg, Lindsay Remnant, James Farquharson
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire Hope, J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside Renwick, George
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Houston, Robert Paterson Richards, Henry Charles
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A(Wore. Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Ridley, S.Forde (Bethnal Green
Chapman, Edward Hudson, George Bickersteth Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hunt, Rowland Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Jebb, Sir Richard Claver house Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Teffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Crean, Eugene Kerr, John Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Kimber, Henry Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Sharpe, William Edward T.
Dalkeith, Earl of Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Simeon, Sir Barrington
Davenport, W. Bromley- Lawson, JohnGrant( Yorks.N.R Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Davies,Sir HoratioD.(Chatham Lee,Arthur H.(Hants.Fareham Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Denny, Colonel Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)
Dickson, Charles Scott Llewellyn, Evan Henry Spear, John Ward
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)
Dimsdale,Rt.Hon.Sir JosehhC. Long, Rt.Hn.Walter (Bristol, S.) Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lowe, Francis William Stanley, Rt.Hon. Lord (Lanes.)
Doughty, George Loyd, Archie Kirkman Stock, James Henry
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Macdona, John Cumming Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Duke, Henry Edward Maconochie, A. W. Thorburn, Sir Walter
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin M'Iver,SirLewis(Edinburgh,W. Tollemache, Henry James
Dyke, Rt.Hon.Sir William Hart Majendie, James A. H. Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Eardell, Sir T. George Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Tritton, Charles Ernest
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Maxwell,W.J.H.(Dumfriesshire Tuff, Charles
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Milvain, Thomas Valentia, Viscount
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Moore, William Walker, Col. William Hall
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Morgan, David J.(Walthamstow Warde, Colonel C. E.
Forster, Henry William Morpeth, Viscount Webb, Colonel William George
Foster,Philip S.(Warwick,S.W. Morrison, James Archibald Welby,Lt.-Col.A.C.E.(Taunton
Galloway, William Johnson Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Welby, Sir Charles G.E. (Notts.
Gardner, Ernest Mount, William Arthur Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Gordon, Hn.J.E.(Elgin & Nairn Mowbray, Sir Robert Giay C. Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Goulding, Edwara Alfred Murray,Rt.Hn. A.Graham(Bute Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Gretton, John Peel, Hn.Wm.Robert Wellesley Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks.)
Groves, James Grimble Percy, Earl Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Hamilton,Marq. of (L'donderry Pier point, Robert Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Hardy,Laurence(Kent, Ashford Pilkington, Colonel Richard Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Hare, Thomas Leigh Platt-Higgins, Frederick Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th) Plummer, Walter R. Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Harris, Dr. Fredk. R (Dulwich) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Pretyman, Ernest George TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Helder, Augustus Pym, C. Guy Alexander Acland-Hood
Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.) Rankin, Sir James and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne
Hickman, Sir Alfred Ratcliff, R. F.
MR. J. H. LEWIS (Flint Boroughs)

moved an Amendment with the object of preserving the administrative discretion of the magistrates in order that they might continue to bring pressure to bear to prevent frequent changes of tenancy. The constant transfer of licences, particularly in the case of tied houses, constituted, he said, one of the scandals of the licensing system. It had been calculated that no fewer than 20,000 transfers were effected per annum. In Hertfordshire 423 houses changed hands more than three times during five years; in Hull there were nearly 400 transfers a year; in Lincoln the average tenancy of tied houses was two and a half years; in Leeds out of 379 tied houses there were 165 transfers in one year, and in Birmingham out of 2,300 licences there were 800 transfers per annum. In a large number of these cases tenant after tenant was ruined owing to the exorbitant terms imposed by the brewers, and it was desirable that the magistrates should be able to bring pressure to prevent these constant changes from taking place. He submitted that in these cases the words "ill-conducted" did not cover the ground.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 7, after the word "unsuitable," to insert the words "or have been subject to frequent changes of tenancy.'"— (Mr. J. H. Lewis.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."


pointed out that if changes of tenancy were due to ill - conduct the magistrates already had power to take away the licence without compensation. But if

the changes were due to mortality, illness, or any other circumstances, then, if the licence was taken away, compensation ought to follow. There might be evils connected with constant changes of tenancy, but, on the other hand, anything that tended to prevent a brewer from sending away a bad tenant ought not to be encouraged. The Government could not accept the Amendment.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 123; Noes, 194. (Division List No. 195.)

Ainsworth, John Stirling Grant, Corrie Parrott, William
Atherley-Jones, L. Griffith, Ellis J. Perks, Robert William
Barran, Rowland Hirst Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Power, Patrick Joseph
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Reid, Sir R.Threshie(Dumfries)
Black, Alexander William Helme, Norval Watson Rigg, Richard
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Brigg, John Higham, John Sharpe Roche, John
Broadhurst, Henry Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) Russell, T. W.
Brown, George M.(Edinburgh) Hope, John Deans (Fife,, West) Shackleton, David James
Burke, E. Haviland- Horniman, Frederick John Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Burt, Thomas Jacoby, James Alfred Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Caldwell, James Johnson, John (Gateshead) Sheehy, David
Cameron, Robert Jones,David Brynmor(Swansea Shipman, Dr. John G.
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Jordan, Jeremiah Slack, John Bamford
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Joyce, Michael Sloan, Thomas Henry
Channing, Francis Allston Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan,W. Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Kilbride, Denis Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Langley, Batty Strachey, Sir Edward
Cremer, William Randall Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Sullivan, Donal
Crooks, William Layland-Barratt, Francis Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Cullinan, J. Leigh, Sir Joseph Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.
Dalziel, James Henry Leng, Sir John Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Davies, Alfreg (Carmarthen) Levy, Maurice Thomas.David Alfred(Merthyr)
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan Lloyd-George, David Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower
Delany, William Lundon, W. Tomkinson, James
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles MacVeagh, Jeremiah Toulmin, George
Dobbie, Joseph M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Donelan, Captain A. M'Crae, George Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Doogan, P. C. M'Kenna, Reginald Wason, JohnCathcart (Orkney)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Mansfield, Horace Rendall White, George (Norfolk)
Duncan, J. Hastings Markham, Arthur Basil Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)
Edwards, Frank Mitchell, Edw.(Fermanagh, N.) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Eve, Harry Trelawney Moss, Samuel Wilson,Fred.W.(Norfolk,Mid.)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Moulton, John Fletcher Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Fenwick, Charles Murphy, John Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Newnes, Sir George Yoxall, James Henry
Fitzmaurice, Lora. Edmona 0'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary Mid
Flavin, Michael Joseph 0'Connor,James(Wicklow W.) TELLERS FOB THE AYES—Mr.
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) O'Doherty, William Herbert Lewis and Mr.
Fuller, J. M. F. O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Robert Wallace.
Gladstone,Rt.Hn. Herbert John O'Dowd, John
Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Arrol, Sir William Bagot, Capt.Josoeline FitzRoy
Allhusen, Augustus HenryEden Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Bailey, James (Walworth)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hn.SirH. Bain, Colonel James Robert
Arnold-Forster, Rt.Hn.Hugh O. J Austin, Sir John Balcarres, Lord
Baldwin, Alfred Hardy,Laurence(Kent, Ashford Pierpoint, Robert
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Hare, Thomas Leigh Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Balfour,Rt.Hn.GeralaW(Leeds Harris, Dr.Fredk. R. (Dulwich) Plummer, Walter R.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Heath,ArthurHoward (Hanley) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks Heaton, John Henniker Pretyman, Ernest George
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Helder, Augustus Pym, C. Guy
Bignold, Arthur Henderson.'Sir A. (Stafford,W.) Rankin, Sir James
Bigwood, James Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne
Bill, Charles Hickman, Sir Alfred Ratcliff, R. F.
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hobhouse,RtHn.H.(Somers't,E Reid, James (Greenock)
Bond, Edward Hogg, Lindsay Remnant, James Farquharson
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Hope,J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside) Renwick, George
Bowles, Lt.-Col H.F.(Middlesex Houston, Robert Paterson Richards, Henry Charles
Brassey, Albert Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham) Ridley,S.Forde (Bethnal Green)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Brotherton, Edward Allen Hudson, George Bickersteth Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Bull, William James Hunt, Rowland Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Cautley, Henry Strother Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred. Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Cavendish,V.C.W. (Derbyshire Kenyon,Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh) Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kenyon-Slaney,Col.W.(Salop. Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Ghamberlain,RtHn.J.A. Wore. Kerr, John Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Chapman, Edward Kimber, Henry Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Law,Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Lawrence, Win. F. (Liverpool) Simeon, Sir Barrington
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Lawson,J. Grant (Yorks.N.R.) Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Lee,ArthurH.(Hants.Fareham) Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Crean, Eugene Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Smith,Abel H.(Hertford, E.)
Cross,Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Llewellyn, Evan Henry Spear, John Ward
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)
Dalkeith, Earl of Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Stanley,EdwardJas.(Somerset)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Long,Rt.Hn.Walter (Bristol,S. Stanley,Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.)
Davenport, W. Bromley- Lowe, Francis William Stock, James Henry
Davies,Sir HoratioD.(Chatham Loyd, Archie Kirkman Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Dickson, Charles Scott Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Macdona, John Gumming Thorburn, Sir Walter
Dimsdale,Rt.Hon.Sir JosephC. Maconochie, A. W. Tollemache, Henry James
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph M'Fadden, Edward Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Doughty, George M'Iver,SirLewis( Edinburgh,W. Tritton, Charles Ernest
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akeis Majendie, James A. H. Tuff, Charles
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Massey-Mainwairing, Hn.W.F. Valentia, Viscount
Duke, Henry Edward Maxwell,W.J.H.( Dumfriesshire Walker, Col. William Hall
Durning-Lawrenee, Sir Edwin Middlemore,John Throgmorton Warde, Colonel C. E.
Dyke,Rt,Hon.Sir WilliamHart Milvain, Thomas Webb, Colonel William George
Fardell, Sir T. George Moore, William Welby,Lt.-Col.A.C.E (Taunton
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Morgan, David J.(Walthamstow Welby, Sir Charles G.E. (Notts)
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Morpeth, Viscount Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon Morrison, James Archibald Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Whiteley,H.(Ashton und.Lyne)
Forster, Henry William Mount, William Arthur Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Foster,Philip S.(Warwick,S.W. Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Galloway, William Johnson Muntz, Sir Philip A. Wilson-Todd,Sir W. H.(Yorks.)
?Gardner, Ernest Murray, Rt.Hn.A.Graham(Bute Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Gordon,Hn.J.E.(Elgin& Nairn) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-
Gore,Hn.S.E.Ormsby-(Linc.) Myers, William Henry Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Goulding, Edward Alfred Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Gretton, John Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) TELLERS FOB THE NOES—Sir
Groves, James Grimble Peel,Hn.Wm.Robert Wellesley Alexander Acland-Hood and
Hamilton,Marq.of (L'donderry Percy, Earl Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
MR. HERBERT ROBERTS (Denbighshire, W.)

moved a drafting Amendment to make it perfectly clear that one ground with regard to unfitness would be sufficient to enable the magistrates or local justices to exercise their full discretion.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 7, after the third word 'or' to insert the words 'on any ground or.'"—(Mr. Herbert Roberts.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."


said there was no necessity for the Amendment, because according to Section 1 of the Interpretation Act, 1889, the singular included the plural, and the plural the singular.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.


moved an Amendment to the first sub-section giving power to the justices of the licensing district, in considering the question of the renewal of any licence, to take into account not only the character or fitness of the incoming tenant, or proposed holder of the licence, but the character or fitness of the outgoing tenant. The discretion of the justices in such a case was, as the Bill stood, limited to the point whether or not the premises had been "ill-conducted." He thought his point might best be put by stating an imaginary concrete case. Supposing the outgoing tenant was either a poacher himself in a country district or was known to have received poachers upon his licensed premises. It might be held in considering the renewal of the licence in such a case that the local justices had no right to consider the question of the fitness of the character of the outgoing licensee. As the section was drawn at present it was doubtful whether the local justices could exercise a full discretion in reference to that case. With regard to the Amendment referring to reasonable refreshment, he acknowledged that the section withdrew a certain power of pressure under this Bill. It was in order to safeguard the full discretion of the local justices that he moved this Amendment. The hon. Member opposite had said that there was so much vagueness in this Bill that it was impossible to tell what it meant, and that state of things made it all the more necessary with regard to the renewal of licences that every care should be taken to make it perfectly clear that the justices had precisely the same powers of discretion as they had now. The Solicitor-General said there had been many fallacies as to the effect of this clause upon the discretion of the local justices. He did not suppose that anybody would contend that this section would give to the justices any discre- tionary power with regard to the conduct and character of the outgoing tenants. It was of the utmost importance that it should be made plain that the local justices retained their full powers of discretion, and he begged to move his Amendment.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 8, after the word 'character,' to insert the words 'or conduct of the actual holder of the licence.'"—(Mr. Herbert Roberts.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."


said the hon. Member was dealing with the case of the outgoing tenant, but what they were more deeply interested in was the incoming tenant, because, so far as the outgoing tenant was concerned, his case could be dealt with under the words in the Bill as to the ill - conduct of the premises. If this Amendment were accepted he was afraid it would put it into the power of a tenant wilfully to misbehave himself in order that those interested in the licensed premises should not be able to obtain compensation. The conduct of the outgoing tenant was so far as necessary dealt with by the earlier words of the clause, and they could not accept the Amendment.

MR. BROADHURST (Leicester)

said the objection of the Home Secretary was an imaginary one, and was, to say the least of it, far-fetched. This Amendment dealt with the class of tenants engaged at very short notice to quit, and they would have very little opportunity of entering into a conspiracy to damage the property of the brewers by doing something to injure the house in order to prevent full compensation being given. His experience was, that if they had a bad tenant with a bad record he was generally succeeded by a person with a similar character, because the house got a bad name, and no man with money to lose could be found to become the tenant of a house with a reputation of this kind. His hon. friend's Amendment dealt with a very important point, and one which was well worthy of the consideration of the Committee, and well worth inserting in the Bill. He remembered one case in which a tenant came before the court with a pile of recommendations, nearly all from clergymen in the Church of England, and they appalled the court, and they had to accept the applicant. The man had been recently accused of horse-stealing, and he suspected something of the kind when he saw such a long list of recommendations from members of the Church of England. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh."] He was saying this without prejudice. The ministers in his Church and Free Churches generally did not write characters for men going as tenants into public-houses. In this particular case the result was that for three or four succeeding tenancies no one conducted that house upon satisfactory principles. One

man who attempted to carry on the business in a highly respectable manner became bankrupt, and was kicked out by the brewers after a very few days notice. He thought this Amendment was one which would commend itself to all hon. Members who had had any lengthy experience at brewster sessions, examining into the character of the men who came into those houses, and who often went out of them hastily. It was an Amendment of considerable importance, and could not be disposed of by the reasons given by the Home Secretary.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 132; Noes, 226. (Division List No. 196.)

Ainsworth, John Stirling Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Reddy, M.
Allen, Charles P. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Reid, Sir R. Threshie(Dumfries
Asquith, Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry Higham, John Sharpe Rickett, T. Compton
Atherley-Jones, L. Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol,E.) Rigg, Richard
Barran, Rowland Hirst Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Horniman, Frederick John Roche, John
Black, Alexander William Jacoby, James Alfred Russell, T. W.
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Johnson, John (Gateshead) Shackleton, David James
Brigg, John Joicey, Sir James Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Burke, E. Haviland Jordan, Jeremiah Sheehy, David
Burt, Thomas Joyce, Michael Shipman, Dr. John G.
Caldwell, James Kennedy,Vincent P.(Cavan,W. Slack, John Bamford
Cameron, Robert Kilbride, Denis Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Langley, Batty Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal,W.) Strachey, Sir Edward
Channing, Francis Allston Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Sullivan, Donal
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Layland-Barratt, Francis Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Leigh, Sir Joseph Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Cremer, William Randal Leng, Sir John Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan,E.)
Crooks, William Levy, Maurice Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)
Dalziel, James Henry Lewis, John Herbert Thomas,J A(Glamorgan,Gower
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Lloyd-George, David Tillet, Louis John
Danes, M. Vaughan (Cardigan) Lough, Thomas Tomkinson, James
Delany, William Lundon, W. Toulmin, George
Dilke, Rt, Hon. Sir Charles MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Dobbie, Joseph MacVeagh, Jeremiah Wallace, Robert
Donelan, Captain A. M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Walton, Jn. Lawson(Leeds, S.)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) M'Crae, George Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Duncan, J. Hastings M'Kenna, Reginald Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
Edwards, Frank Mansfield, Horace Rendall White, George (Norfolk)
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) Markham, Arthur Basil White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh,N.) Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)
Eve, Harry Trelawney Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Moss, Samuel Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Fenwick, Charles Moulton, John Fletcher Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk,Mid.
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Murphy, John Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Newnes, Sir George Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) Woodhouse, Sir J.T(Huddersf'd
Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn O'Doherty, William Yoxall, James Henry
Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Grant, Corrie O'Shaughnessy, P. J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Griffith, Ellis J. Parrott, William Herbert Roberts and Mr.
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Perks, Robert William Broadhurst.
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Power, Patrick Joseph
Helme, Norval Watson Rea, Russell
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Fison, Frederick William Morrell, George Herbert
Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon Morrison, James Archibald
Anson, Sir William Reynell Flannery, Sir Fortescue Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.HughO. Flavin, Michael Joseph Mount, William Arthur
Arrol, Sir William Forster, Henry William Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S.W.) Muntz, Sir Philip A.
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt. Hn. Sir H. Galloway, William Johnson Murray, Rt, Hon. A. G. (Bute)
Austin, Sir John Gardner, Ernest Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Bagot, Capt. Joseeline FitzRoy Gordon, Hn.J.E.(Elgin&Nairn) Myers, William Henry
Bailey, James (Walworth) Gore, Hon. S.F.Ormsby-(Linc) Newdegate, Francis A. N.
Bain, Colonel James Robert Goulding, Edward Alfred Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Baird, John George Alexander Gray, Ernest (West Ham) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Balcarres, Lord Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury) O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Baldwin, Alfred Gretton, John O'Dowd, John
Balfour, Rt.Hon. A.J.(Manch'r Greville, Hon. Ronald Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Groves, James Grimble Parker, Sir Gilbert
Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds Hall, Edward Marshall Peel, Hn.Wm.Robert Wellesley
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christeh. Hamilton, Marq of(L'nd'nderry Pemberton, John S. G.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) Percy, Earl
Beach, Rt.Hn.SirMichaelHicks Hare, Thomas Leigh Pierpoint, Robert
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th) Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Bignold, Arthur Harris, Dr. Fredk. R.(Dulwich) Platt-Higgins. Frederick
Bigwood, James Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley Plummer, Walter R.
Bill, Charles Heaton, John Henniker Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Blundell, Colonel Henry Henderson, Sir A.(Stafford,W.) Pretyman, Ernest George
Bond, Edward Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Hickman, Sir Alfred Pym, C. Guy
Bowles, Lt.-Col.H.A(Middlesex Hobhouse,RtHn H(Somers't,E Rankin, Sir James
Brassey, Albert Hogg, Lindsay Raseh, Sir Frederic Carne
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hope, J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside Ratcliff, R. F.
Brotherton, Edward Allen Houston, Robert Paterson Reid, James (Greenock)
Bull, William James Howard, Jn.(Kent, Faversham) Remnant, James Farquharson
Butcher, John George Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Renwick, George
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hudson, George Bickersteth Richards, Henry Charles
Cautley, Henry Strother Hunt, Rowland Ridley, S.Forde(Bethnal Green
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Chamberlain, RtHn.J.A(Worc. Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T.(Denbigh) Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Kenyon-Saney, Col. W.(Salop. Round, Rt. Hon. James
Chapman, Edward Kerr, John Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Clive, Captain Percy A. Keswick, William Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Kimber, Henry Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Sader, Col. Samuel Alexander
Condon, Thomas Joseph Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Lawson, J.Grant (Yorks., N.R. Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim,S.) Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Simeon, Sir Harrington
Crean, Eugene Llewellyn, Evan Henry Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Cross, HerbertShepherd(Bolton Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Smith, Abel H.(Hertford,East)
Dalkeith, Earl of Long, Col.CharlesW.(Evesham) Spear, John Ward
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Long, Rt.Hn.Walter(Bristol,S.) Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)
Davenport, William Bromley Lonsdale, John Brownlee Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Davies,Sir HoratioD.(Chatham Lowe, Francis William Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset
Denny, Colonel Loyd, Archie Kirkman Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord(Lancs.)
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Dickson, Charles Scott Macdona, John Cumming Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Maconochie, A. W. Stock, James Henry
Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir JosephC. M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph M'Fadden, Edward Talbot, Rt.Hn.J.G(0xf'dUniv.
Doogan, P. C. M'lver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh,W Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Doughty, George M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Thorburn, Sir Walter
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Tollemache, Henry James
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Majendie, James A. H. Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Duke, Henry Edward Malcolm, Ian Tritton, Charles Ernest
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Tuff, Charles
Dyke, Rt.Hn.Sir William Hart Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.) Valentia, Viscount
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Milvain, Thomas Walker, Col. William Hall
Fardell, Sir T. George Moore, William Warde, Colonel C. E.
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Morgan, DavidJ.(Walthamst'w Webb, Colonel William George
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Morpeth, Viscount Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E(Taunton
Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.) Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks.) Young, Samuel
Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart TELLERS FOB THE NOES—Sir
Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne Wrightson, Sir Thomas Alexander Acland-Hood and
Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Wilson, John (Glasgow) Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
MR, LAWRENCE (Liverpool, Abercromby)

said he desired to move the Amendment standing in his name on the Paper. The point he wished to raise was whether this clause did or did not limit the discretion of the magistrates. He held the opinion that under the words "ill-conducted" the discretion of the magistrates was unduly limited. He therefore suggested that after the word "character" the words "conduct of his business by" should be inserted. The question was whether the word "ill-conducted" modified the power of the magistrate in seeing that a business was properly carried on. The best way would be to show by concrete instances how the discretion of the magistrates hitherto had operated. In Liverpool, under the present system, they had put down the long pull, and forbidden the offering of sweets to children who were sent to public-houses. Neither of those things could be described as ill-conduct, and they were no more illegitimate than the conduct of shipping companies in carrying people across the Atlantic below cost price. He wished to know, if this Bill was passed, how the magistrates would stand with regard to customs which, although they were undesirable in themselves, were not strictly illegitimate. He had suggested these words because he thought it would enlarge the powers of the Bill, and leave the magistrates somewhat freer. He quite recognised that the magistrates had not always shown the proper discretion, and that they had now and then tried to impose

limitations which were to be deprecated. In some cases they had almost attempted to legislate instead of merely administering the law. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 8, after the word 'character,' to insert the words ' conduct of his business by.' "—(Mr. Latvrence.)

Question proposed "That those words be there inserted."


said the Government could not possibly accept the Amendment. It referred not merely to the particular business with which the magistrates were dealing, but to any business in which the applicant, was previously concerned. Anything that was to be gained by the Amendment was already provided for in the Bill. If the Amendment referred only to the fitness of a person to hold a licence that was already in the Bill. He ventured to say that the interests of the public were sufficiently protected by the clause as it now stood. On the other hand, if the proposed words were inserted they might leave it open to an extreme bench of justices to judge a man, not on his own merits, or in relation to the premises in which he actually conducted the business, but in relation to something else.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—-Ayes, 150; Noes, 228. (Division List No. 197.)

Ainsworth, John Stirling Brown, George M. (Edinburgh Cremer, William Randal
Allen, Charles P. Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Crooks, William
Ashton, Thomas Gair Burke, E. Haviland Dalziel, James Henry
Asquith,Rt.Hon.Herbert Henry Burns, John Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)
Atherley-Jones, L. Burt, Thomas Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)
Barran, Rowland Hirst Caldwell, James Delany, William
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Cameron, Robert Denny, Colonel
Bonn, John Williams Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Black, Alexander William Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Dobbie, Joseph
Boland, John Channing, Francis Allston Doogan, P. C.
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Condon, Thomas Joseph Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)
Brigg, John Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Duncan, J. Hastings
Broadhurst, Henry Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Edwards, Frank
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) Lough, Thomas Sheehy, David
Emmot, Alfred Lunaon, W. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Slack, John Bamford
Eve, Harry Trelawney MacVeagh, Jeremiah Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool Spear, John Ward
Fenwick, Charles M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) M'Crae, George Strachey, Sir Edward
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond M'Kenna, Reginald Sullivan, Donal
Flavin, Michael Joseph Mansfield, Horace Rendall Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Markham, Arthur Basil Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Fuller, J. M. F. Middlemore, John Throgmorton Tennant, Harold John
Gladstone, Rt.Hn. Herbert John Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.) Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Grant, Corrie Moss, Samuel Thomas,David Alfred (Merthyr
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) Moulton, John Fletcher Thomas, JA(Glamorgan,Gower
Griffith, Ellis J. Murphy, John Tomkinson, James
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Newnes, Sir George Toulmin, George
Helme, Norval Watson Nussey, Thomas Willans Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary,Mid Ure, Alexander
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Wallace, Robert
Higham, John Sharpe O'Malley, William Walton, John Lawson(Leeds,S.
Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) Parrott, William Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Horniman, Frederick John Perks, Robert William Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Houston, Robert Paterson Power, Patrick Joseph Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney
Jacoby, James Alfred Rea, Russell White, George (Norfolk)
Johnson, John (Gateshead) Reekitt, Harold James White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Joicey, Sir James Reddy, M. Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)
Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Jordan, Jeremiah Rickett, J. Compton Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk,Mid.)
Joyce, Michael Rigg, Richard Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Langley, Batty Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Woodhouse, Sir JT.(Huddersf'd
Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Robson, William Snowdon Yoxall, James Henry
Layland-Barratt, Francis Roche, John
Leigh, Sir Joseph Rose, Charles Day TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir-
Leng, Sir John Russell, T. W. W. F. Lawrence and Mr.
Levy, Maurice Shackleton, David James Osmond Williams.
Lewis, John Herbert Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Lloyd-George, David Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Brassey, Albert Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Doxford, Sir William Theodore
Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden Brotherton, Edward Allen Duke, Henry Edward
Anson, Sir William Reynell Bull, William James Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin
Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.Hugh 0. Butcher, John George Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton
Arrol, Sir William Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cautley, Henry Strother Fardell, Sir T. George
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt,Hn. Sir H. Cavendish,V.C.W. (Derbyshire Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.
Austin, Sir John Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Chamberlain,Rt.HnJ.A.(Worc. Fison, Frederick William
Bailey, James (Walworth) Chapman, Edward Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon
Bain, Colonel James Robert Clive, Captain Percy A. Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Baird, John George Alexander Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Forster, Henry William
Balcarres, Lord Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Foster, Philip S.(Warwick,S.W.
Baldwin, Alfred Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Galloway, William Johnson
Balfour,Rt. Hn. A.J. (Manch'r) Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Gardner, Ernest
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim,S. Gordon, Hn J.E. (Elgin&Nairn)
Balfour.RtHnGerald W.(Leeds Crean, Eugene Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Line.)
Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch. Cripps, Charles Alfred Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Cross, Herb, Shepherd (Bolton) Goulding, Edward Alfred
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Beach,Rt.Hn.SirMichael Hicks Dalkeith, Earl of Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Dalrymple, Sir Charles Gretton, John
Bignold, Arthur Davenport, William Bromley- Greville, Hon. Ronald
Bigwood, James Davies,Sir HoratioD.(Chatham Groves, James Grimble
Bill, Charles Dickson, Charles Scott Hall, Edward Marshall
Blundell, Colonel Henry Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Hamilton,Marq.of (L'nd'nderry
Bond, Edward Dimsdale, Rt.Hn. Sir Joseph C. Hardy,Laurenee (Kent, Ashford
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Hare, Thomas Leigh
Bowles, Lt. Col. H.F (Middlesex Doughty, George Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)
Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) Milvain, Thomas Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.),
Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Montagu, Hon. J.Scott (Hants.) Sharpe, William Edward T.
Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Moore, William Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Heaton, John Henniker Morgan, David J.(Walthamstow Simeon, Sir Barrington
Helder, Augustus Morpeth, Viscount Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford W.) Morrell, George Herbert Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East):
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Morrison, James Archibald Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)
Hickman, Sir Alfred Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)
Hobhouse,RtHnH,(Somers't,E Mount, William Arthur Stanley,Hon.Arthur (Ormskirk
Hogg, Lindsay Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Stanley,Edward Jas.(Somerset'/
Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside Muntz, Sir Philip A. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.)
Hoult, Joseph Murray, Rt. Hn.A.Graham (Bute Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Howard, Tohn(Kent,Faversham Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Myers, William Henry Stock, James Henry
Hudson, George Bickersteth Newdegate, Francis A. N. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Hunt, Rowland Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Talbot,Rt.Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Tollemache, Henry James
Jeffreys, Rt.Hon. Arthur Fred. O'Doherty, William Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Kenyon, Hon.Geo. T. (Denbigh) O'Dowd, John Tritton, Charles Ernest
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Tuff, Charles
Kerr, John Peel,Hn.Wm.Robert Wellesley Valentia, Viscount
Keswick, William Pemberton, John S. G. Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Kimber, Henry Percy, Earl Walker, Col. William Hall
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Pierpoint, Robert Warde, Colonel C. E.
Lawson JohnGrant(Yorks.N.R Pilkington, Colonel Richard Webb, Colonel William George
LeeArthurH.(Hants.,Fareham) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Welby, Lt.Col.A.C.E. (Taunton
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Plummer, Walter R. Welb'y,Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.)
Llewellyn, Evan Henry Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Pretyman, Ernest George Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne
Long, Col.CharlesW.(Evesham) Pym, C. Guy Whitmorc, Charles Algernon
Long, Rt.Hn.Walter (Bristol, S) Rankin, Sir James Willough by de Eresby, Lord
Lonsdale, John Brownlee Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne Wilson,A. Stanley(York, E.R.)
Lowe, Francis William Ratcliff, R. F. Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Reid, James (Greenock) Wilson-Todd,Sir W.H.(Yorks.)
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Remnant, James Farquharson Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Renwick, George Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-
Macdona, John Cumming Richards, Henry Charles Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Maconochie, A. W. Ridley,S. Forde (Bethnal Green Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
M'Fadden, Edward Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
M'Iver,Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Young, Samuel
M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Younger, William
Majendie, James A. H. Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Malcolm, Ian Round, Rt. Hon. James TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Manners, Lord Cecil Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Martin, Richard Biddulph Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Maxwell,W.J.H.(Dumfriesshire Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

had given notice of an Amendment to insert in Clause 1, line 8, after "fitness" the words "or status as regards the licensed premises."


I believe this Amendment really raises the same question as the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for West Denbighshire and recently discussed.


It raises the question of status.


I suppose that means bona fide tenancy.


The-object of the Amendment is to ensure that the local justices shall have under this section the same rights which they now enjoy under Section 16, Sub-section 1, of the Licensing Act, 1902, to ask for the perusal of agreements between a brewery company and a landlord.


The object is to see whether a man is a bona fide tenant or not. [Opposition cries of "No."] I do not know what the object is unless it is to find out whether it is a bona fide tenancy.


It is to see under what conditions he carries on the tenancy.


Surely the conditions of the tenancy are to show whether the tenancy is bona fide. [OPPOSITION cries of "No."] What else does it show? I think it really raises the same point.


May I move the Amendment in order to ask a question of the Government, namely, whether this clause will enable the justices to ask for the perusal of any agreement there is between the landlord or a brewery company and the licence-holder? It is a question of great administrative importance, as I know from long experience on the Bench.


I really cannot see that this raises any question except that of the bona fides of the tenant. The fact that the licence-holder has some agreement of the kind indicated by the hon. Member would only make the premises come under the name of a tied house. [OPPOSITION cries, of "No."] Well, I cannot conceive any other, and the hon. Member has not suggested any other.


I will suggest it at once. It is a question of the length of the tenancy.


The point the hon. Member has mentioned has already been discussed. We have had Amendment8 dealing with the length of the tenancy.


Supposing there is a condition in connection with the tenancy which affects the proportion of the contribution, that has nothing to do with a tied house at all. It may be between an ordinary landlord and an ordinary tenant. That has nothing whatever to do with the length of the tenancy or with the purchasing of goods from certain people. The only point which my hon. friend wishes to raise is whether the magistrates shall, have the right to see the agreement and consider these points before they arrive at a decision. We have not discussed the point at all.

MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)

Supposing the agreement contracts the tenant out of the rights to be conferred on him by this Bill, what would be the position of the tenant?


Then he is not a bona fide tenant. That is a question which has already been discussed.


I beg your pardon.


If the hon. Member will bring forward an Amendment raising the specific point he has put, I will consider it, but the word "status" covers bona fides,and it covers the position of a tenant as regards a tied house. Both of these points have already been discussed.


The magistrates have a right to know what the status of a tenant really is with regard to this question.


said there was a recent case in which the licence holder gave a power of attorney to a brewery company. It was most important that the magistrates should have power to get information in cases of that kind. It worked out in this way. At any moment the brewery company could step in and use the power of attorney and turn the man out without compensation of any kind.


The hon. Gentleman may move the Amendment if he will undertake not to raise the tied house question. I do not know whether the word "status"is known to English law. It is a Latin word which may cover a good deal.

MR. ASQUITH (Fifeshire, E.)

I would suggest to my hon. friend that instead of the words in the Amendment he should move the insertion of the words "or contracted rights or liabilities as regards the licensed premises."


said he would move the Amendment in the way suggested by the right hon. Gentleman. His only wish was to obtain the view of the Government as to whether under this section local justices would have the same power of examining documents as they now possessed.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 8, after the word 'fitness,' to insert the words 'or contracted rights or liabilities as regards the licensed premises.'"— (Mr. Herbert Roberts.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."


said the mover of the Amendment had asked whether under this clause the magistrates would continue to have the powers which were vested in them by the Licensing Act of 1892 as to calling for certain documents. There was nothing in this Bill to take away these powers from the local licensing justices. It was quite plain that the procedure before the local licensing justices would be exactly the-same as at present.


Can they refuse the licence if they consider the conditions unfair?


They have the same power of calling on parties to produce agreements.


said the magistrates might call for the production of documents, but when they had got them, they could do nothing. The virtue of the Amendment was that it enabled them, not merely to call for the documents, but, if they were unsatisfactory, to act on the documents by refusing the renewal of the licence if necessary. It was perfectly idle for the Solicitor-General to say that if the words of the Amendment were not inserted the powers of the justices would be the same as at present.

Question put.

Committee divided: — Ayes, 151. Noes, 251. (Division List, No. 198).

Ainsworth, John Stirling Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Reckitt, Harold James
Allen, Charles P. Harcourt,Lewis V. (Rossendale Reddy, M.
Ashton, Thomas Gair Harwood, George Reid, Sir R. Threshie(Dumfries
Asquith, Rt. Hn.HerbertHenry Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D. Rickett, J. Compton
Atherley-Jones, L. Helme, Norval Watson Rigg, Richard
Barran, Rowland Hirst Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Robson, William Snowdon
Bell, Richard Higham, John Sharpe Roche, John
Benn, John Williams Hobhouse, C.E.H.(Bristol, E.) Rose, Charles Day
Black, Alexander William Horniman, Frederick John Runciman, Walter
Boland, John Jacoby, James Alfred Russell, T. W.
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Johnson, John (Gateshead) Schwann, Charles E.
Brigg, John Joicey, Sir James Shackleton, David James
Broadhurst, Henry Jones,DavidBrynmor(Swansea Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Jordan, Jeremiah Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Joyce, Michael Sheehy, David
Burke, E. Haviland- Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan,W. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Burt, Thomas Kitson, Sir James Slack, John Bamford
Caldwell, James Langley, Batty Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Cameron, Robert Law, Hugh Alex.(Donegal,W.) Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Strachey, Sir Edward
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Layland-Barratt, Francis Sullivan, Donal
Channing, Francis Allston Leese,SirJoseph F.(Accrington Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Leigh, Sir Joseph Tennant, Harold John
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Leng, Sir John Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen,E.)
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Levy, Maurice Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan,E.)
Cremer, William Randal Lewis, John Herbert Thomas,DavidAlfred(Merthyr)
Crooks, William Lloyd-George, David Thomas, J A(Glamorgan,Gower
Dalziel, James Henry Lundon, W. Tillet, Louis John
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Tomkinson, James
Davies,M.Vaughan-(Cardigan MacVeagh, Jeremiah Toulmin, George
Delany, William M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles M'Crae, George Ure, Alexander
Dobbie, Joseph M'Kenna, Reginald Wallace, Robert
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Walton, John Lawson( Leeds,S.)
Duncan, J. Hastings Mansfield, Horace Rendall Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Edwards, Frank Markam, Arthur Basil Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) Mitchell,Edw.(Fermanagh, N.) Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
Emmott, Alfred Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) White, George (Norfolk)
Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan) Moss, Samuel White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Eve, Harry Trelawney Moulton, John Fletcher Whiteley, George (York,W.R.)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Murphy, John Whitley, J. H.(Halifax)
Fenwick, Charles Newnes, Sir George Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Nussey, Thomas Willans Wilson, Fred.W.(Norfolk,Mid.)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond 0'Brien,Kendal (TipperaryMid Wilson, Henry J (York, W. R.)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) O'Malley, William Wilson, John (Fa kirk)
Fuller, J. M. F. O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Huddersf'd
Gladstone.Rt.Hn. Herbert John Parrott, William
Goddard, Daniel Ford Partington, Oswald TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Grant, Corrie Perks, Robert William Mr. Herbert Roberts and
Grey, Rt, Hn. Sir E.(Berwick) Priestley, Arthur Mr. Lough.
Griffith, Ellis J. Rea, Russell
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Austin, Sir John Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Balfour,Rt Hn GeraldW.(Leeds
Allhusen,Augustus HenryEden Bailey, James (Walworth) Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Bain, Colonel James Robert Banbury, Sir Frederick George
Arnold-Forster.Rt. Hn. HughO. Baird, John George Alexander Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin
Arrol, Sir William Balcarres, Lord Beach, Rt.Hn. Sir MichaelHicks
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Baldwin, Alfred Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hon.SirH. Balfour,Rt,Hn.A. J. (Manch'r ) Bignold, Arthur
Bigwood, James Hamilton,Marq. of (L'nd'nderry Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Bill, Charles Hardy,Laurence(Kent, Ashford Myers, William Henry
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hare, Thomas Leigh Newdegate, Francis A. N.
Bond, Edward Harris, F. Leventon(Tvnem'th) Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Harris, Di. Fredk. R.(Dulwich) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Bowles,Lt.-Col. H.F(Middlesex Hatch,.Ernest Frederick Geo. O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Brassey, Albert Hay, Hon. Claude George O'Doherty, William
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley O'Dowd, John
Brotherton, Edward Allen Heath, James (Staffords.N.W. Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Butcher, John George Heaton, John Henniker Peel, Hn. Wm.RobertWellesley
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Helder, Augustus Percy, Earl
Cautley, Henry Strother Henderson,SirA.(Stafford, W.) Pierpoint, Robert
Cavendish,V. C. W.(Derbyshire Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hickman, Sir Alfred Piatt-Higgins, Frederick
Chamberlain Rt.Hn. J.A.(Wore Hoare, Sir Samuel Plummer, Walter R.
Chaplain, Rt. Hon. Henry Hobhouse,RtHnH.(Somers't,E Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Chapman, Edward Hogg, Lindsay Pretyman, Ernest George
Churchill, Winston Spencer Hope, J.F(Sheffeld, Brightside Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Clive, Captain Percy A. Hoult, Joseph Rankin, Sir James
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Houston, Robert Paterson Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne
Colston, Chas Edw. H. Athole Howard, John( Kent,Faversham Ratcliff, R. F.
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Hozier, Hon. James HenryCecil Reid, James (Greenock)
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Hudson, George Bickersteth Remnant, James Farquharson
Craig, Charles Curtis(An trim,S. Hunt, Rowland Renwick, George
Crean, Eugene Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Richards, Henry Charles
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Jeffreys, Rt.Hon. Arthur Fred. Ridley,S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir JohnH. Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Dalkeith, Earl of Kenyon, Hn. Geo.T. (Denbigh) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Davenport, William Bromley. Kerr, John Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Davies.Sir HoratioD. (Chatham Keswick, William Round, Rt. Hon. James
Dickson, Charles Scott Kimber, Henry Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Dimsdale, Rt.Hn.Sir Joseph C. Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lawson, JohnGrant(Yorks.N.R Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Doogan, P. C. Lee, Arthur H.(Hants.Fareham Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Doughty, George Llewellyn, Evan Henry Sharpe, William Edwara T.
Douglas. Rt. Hon. A. Akers Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Simeon, Sir Barrington
Duke, Henry Edward Long, Col.Charles W.(Evesham Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Long.Rt. Hn. Walter( Bristol,S) Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Dyke, Rt. Hon.SirWilliamHart Lonsdale, John Brownlee Smith,AbelH.(Hertford, East)
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Lowe, Francis William Smith,James Parker (Lanarks.)
Paber, Edmund B. (Hants.W.) Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Spear, John Ward
Fardell, Sir T. George Loyd, Archie Kirkman Spencer, Sir E.(W. Bromwich)
Fergusson,Rt. Hn.Sir J.(Manc'r Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Macdona, John dimming Stanley, Ed ward Jas.(Somerset)
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Maclver, David (Liverpool Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes.)
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Maconochie, A. W. Stewart, Sir Mark J. M' Taggart
Fison, Frederick William M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
FitzGerald,Sir RobertPenrose- M'Fadden, Edward Stock, James Henry
Fitzroy, Hon.EdwardAlgernon M'Iver,SirLewis (Edinburgh W Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Flannery, Sir Fortescue M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Flavin, Michael Joseph Majendie, James A. H. Talbot, Rt.Hn. J. G.(Oxf'dUniv.
Forster, Henry William Malcolm, Ian Thornton, Percy M.
Foster,Philip S. (Warwick.S.W. Manners, Lord Cecil Tollemache, Henry James
Galloway, William Johnson Martin, Richard Biddulph Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Gardner, Ernest Massey-Mainwaring. Hon.W.F. Tritton, Charles Ernest
Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. Maxwell,W. J.H(Dumfriesshire Tuff, Charles
Gordon, Hn. J.E.(Elgin&Naim) Milvain, Thomas Valentia, Viscount
Gore, Hon. S.F.Ormsby-(Linc) Montagu, Hon. J.Scott (Hants.) Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Moore, William Walker, Col. William Hall
Goulding, Edward Alfred Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow Warde, Colonel C. E.
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Morpeth, Viscount Webb, Col. William George
Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury) Morrell, George Herbert Welby,Lt.-Col.A.C.E.(Taunton
Gretton, John Morrison, James Archibald Welby, Sir CharlesG.E.(Notts.)
Greville, Hon. Ronald Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Groves, Tames Grimble Mount, William Arthur Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Hall, Edward Marshall Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Muntz, Sir Philip A, Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Hamilton,RtHnLordG.(Midd''x Murray,Rt.Hn A.Graham(Bute Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Wortley, Rt. Hon C. B. Stuart- Younger, William
Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Wilson, John (Glasgow) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George TELLERS FOB THE NOES—
Wilson-Todd.Sir W. H.(Yorks.) Wyndham-Quin. Col. W. H. Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson Young, Samuel and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

said he wished to move the omission of the word "proposed," so as to keep within the purview of the magistrates not only the character or fitness of the "proposed holder of the licence," but the continued methods in which the particular house had been conducted. If the word "proposed" were retained in the clause, it appeared to him that it would be possible for any offence against the licensing laws to be absolutely wiped out by bringing forward a new tenant. As a matter of fact that was a practice not unknown in some districts. Some owners of licensed premises were so keen to get a maximum of profits that they had a system of bringing in a succession of licence-holders, and winking at malpractices of the tenant until he was dropped upon by the police. He could not think that it was the object of the Government to encourage a practice of that kind, but unless the word "proposed" was left

out, the magistrates would have no control whatever over the licence-holder.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 8, to leave out the word, 'proposed.'"—(Mr. Whitley.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'proposed' stand part of the clause."


said that the Amendment would make the Bill utterly unworkable. It would compel the magistrates to inquire, not into the character or fitness of the man who was going to carry on the business but of the man who had been put out, probably because he did not carry it on properly. He hoped the House would not agree to the Amendment.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 245; Noes, 151. (Division List No. 199.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Beach, Rt.Hn.Sir Michael Hicks Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas
Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden Bignold, Arthur Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Bigwood, James Crean, Eugene
Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.Hugh O. Bill, Charles Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)
Arrol, Sir William Blundell, Colonel Henry Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Bond, Edward Dalkeith, Earl of
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt. Hn. Sir H. Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Dalrymple, Sir Charles
Austin, Sir John Bowles Lt.Col.H.F.(Middlesex Davenport, William Bromley-
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy Brassey, Albert Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham
Bailey, James (Walworth) Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Denny, Colonel
Bain, Colonel James Robert Butcher, John George Dickinson, Robert Edmond
Baird, John George Alexander Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Dickson, Charles Scott
Balcarres, Lord Cautley, Henry Strother Dimsdale, Rt.Hon.Sir JosephC.
Balfour, Rt.Hon.J.A.(Manch'r Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Doogan, P. C.
Balfour, Rt Hn.Gerald W. (Leeds Chamberlain,Rt,Hn.J.A.(Worc. Dorington, Rt.Hon. Sir JohnE.
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Chapman, Edward Doughty, George
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Clive, Captain Percy A. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E Doxford, Sir William Theodore
Duke, Henry Edward Lawson, JohnGrant( Yorks.N.R Remnant, James Farquharson
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Lee, Arthur H.( Hants,Fareham Renwick, George
Dyke,Rt. Hon. SirWilliamHart Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Richards, Henry Charles
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Llewellyn, Evan Henry Ridley.S.Forde (BethnalGreen)
Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Fardell, Sir T. George Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Fergusson, Rt.Hn.SirJ.(Manc'r Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Long, Rt. Hn.Walter(Bristol,S) Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Lonsdale, John Brownlee Round, Rt. Hon. James
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Fison, Frederick William Loyd, Archie Kirkman Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
FitzGerald, SirRobert Penrose- Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) Sackville, Col 'S. G. Stopford-
Fitzroy, Hn. EdwardAlgernon Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Macdona, John Cumming Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Forster, Henry William MacIver, David (Liverpool) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Foster, PhilipS.(Warwick,S.W. Maconochie, A. W. Sharpe, William Edward T.
Fuller, J. M. F. M'Fadden, Edward Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Calloway, William Johnson M'Iver, Sir Lewis(EdinburghW Simeon, Sir Barrington
Gardner, Ernest M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. Majendie, James A. H. Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Gordon, Hn.J.E.(Elgin&Nairn) Malcolm, Ian Smith,Abel H.(Hertford, East)
Gore, Hn. S.F.Ormsby-(Line.) Martin, Richard Biddulph Smith,James Parker (Lanarks.
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F. Spear, John Ward
Goulding, Edward Alfred Max well, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Melville, Beresford Valentine Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)
Greene, Henry 1). (Shrewsbury) Middlemore,John'Throgmorton Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes.)
Gretton, John Mildmay, Francis Bingham Stewart,Sir Mark J.M'Taggart
Greville, Hon. Ronald Milvain, Thomas Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Groves, James (Grimble Molesworth, Sir Lewis Stock, James Henry
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Hamilton, Marq.of(L'nd'nderry Moore, William Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Hardly, Laurence(Kent,Ashford Morgan,David J.(Walthamstow Talbot. Rt,Hn.J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.
Hare, Thomas Leigh Morpeth, Viscount Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th) Morrell, George Herbert Thornton, Percy M.
Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) Morrison, James Archibald Tollemache, Henry James
Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Hay, Hon. Claude George Mount, William Arthur Tritton, Charles Ernest
Heath, Arthur Howard) Hanley Muntz, Sir Philip A. Tuff, Charles
Heath, James (Staffords. N.W. Murray,Rt Hn. A.Graham(Bute Valentia, Viscount
Heaton, John Henniker Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Walker, Col. William Hall
Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford,W.) Myers, William Henry Warde, Colonel C. E.
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Newdegate, Francis A. X. Webb, Colonel William George
Hickman, Sir Alfred Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway,N.) Welby.Lt.-Col.A.C.E (Taunton
Hoare, Sir Samuel Nolan, Joseph (Louth, Sonth) Welby,Sir CharlesG.E. (Notts.)
Hobhouse, RtHnH.(Somers't,E O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon
Hogg, Lindsay O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Hope, J. F.(Sheffield,Brightside O'Doherty, William Whiteley,H.(Ashton und.Lyne
Hoult, Joseph O'Dowd, John Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Houston, Robert Paterson Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Howard, John(Kent,Faversham Peel,Hn.Wm. Robert Wellesley Wilson, A. Stanley (York.E.R.)
Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Pemberton, John S. G. Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Hudson, George Bickersteth Percy, Earl Wilson-Todd.Sir W.H.(Yorks.)
Hunt, Rowland Pierpoint, Robert Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Pilkington, Colonel Richard Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. Platt-Higgins, Frederick Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Plummer, Walter R. Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Kennaway, Rt. Hn. SirJolm H. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Pretyman, Ernest George Young, Samuel
Kerr, John Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Younger, William
Keswick, William Rankin, Sir James
Kimber, Henry Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Ratcliff, R. F. Alexander Acland-Hood and
Lawrence, Win. F. (Liverpool) Reid, James (Greenock) Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Boland, John
Allen, Charles P. Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Brigg, John
Ashton, Thomas Gair Bell, Richard Broadhurst, Henry
Atherley-Jones, L. Benn, John Williams Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson
Barran, Rowland Hirst Black, Alexander William Burke, E. Haviland-
Burt, Thomas Jacoby, James Alfred Reid,Sir R.Threshie(Dumfries)
Caldwell, James Johnson, John (Gateshead) Rickett, J. Compton
Cameron, Robert Joicey, Sir James Rigg, Richard
Charming, Francis Allston Jones, David Brynmor( Swansea Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Churchill, Winston Spencer Jordan, Jeremiah Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Joyce, Michael Robson, William Snowdon
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Kennedy,Vincent P.(Cavan,W. Roche, John
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Kitson, Sir James Rose, Charles Day
Cremer, William Randal Lambert, George Runciman, Walter
Crooks, William Langley, Batty Russell, T. W.
Dalziel, James Henry Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal,W Schwann, Charles E.
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Shackleton, David James
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan Layland-Barratt, Francis Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Delany, William Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Dobbie, Joseph Leigh, Sir Joseph Sheehy, David
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Leng, Sir John Shipman, Dr. John G.
Duncan, J. Hastings Levy, Maurice Slack, John Bamford
Edwards, Frank Lewis, John Herbert Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Elibank, Master of Lloyd-George, David Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) Lough Thomas Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Emmott, Alfred Lundon, W. Strachey, Sir Edward
Evans,SirFrancisH. (Maidstone Lyell, Charles Henry Sullivan, Donal
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radeliffe)
Eve, Harry Trelawney MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Tennant, Harold John
Farquharson, Dr. Robert MacVeagh, Jeremiah Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Fen wick, Charles M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) M'Crae, George Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond M'Kenna, Reginald Tomkinson, James
Flavin, Michael Joseph M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Toulmin, George
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Mansfield, Horace Rendall Ure, Alexander
Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. Markham, Arthur Basil Wallace, Robert
Gladstone,Rt.Hn. Herbert; John Mitchell,Edw.(Fermanagh,N.) Walton,JohnLawson (Leeds,S.)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Grant, Corrie Moss, Samuel Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Griffith, Ellis J. Moulton, John Fletcher Wason,John Cathcart (Orkney)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Murphy, John White, George (Norfolk)
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Nussey, Thomas Willans White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Harcourt,Lewis V.(Rossendale O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Harwood, George O'Malley, William Wilson, Fred.W.(Norfolk,Mid.)
Hayter,Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Parrott, William Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Helme, Norval Watson Partington, Oswald Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Perks, Robert William Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Huddersf'd
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Price, Robert John
Higham, John Sharpe Priestley, Arthur TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Hobhouse, C.E.H. (Bristol,E.) Rea, Russell J. H. Whitley and Mr.
Horniman, Frederick John Reckitt, Harold James Trevelyan.
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Reddy, M.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, after the word 'licence' to insert the words 'on the ground that the renewal would be void."—(Sir Edward Carton.)

Amendment agreed to.


said he wished to move an Amendment further adding the words "or that any conditions upon which the licence was granted have not been fulfilled." He said this was an important matter, and went to the root of the question of good conduct. If it were not made perfectly clear in this section that the justices had the right to consider this vital point when they were asked to renew a licence, a serious weakening of their discretion would take place.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, after the word 'licence,' to insert the words 'or that any conditions upon which the licence was granted have not been fulfilled.'"—(Mr. Herbert Robert.)

Question proposed, "That those wore be there inserted."


said that, as far as the form of the Amendment was concerned, the Government could not accept it. As regarded the substance, there was a good deal to be said for it. Where a person had given an undertaking of any importance to a licensing bench in the past as a condition of obtaining his licence, and broke that undertaking, he ought not to have any compensation. He did not think anybody could dispute that proposition. His opinion was that any man who had given such an undertaking, and broken it, was guilty of misconduct in the carrying on of the business. He did not say that because he did not want to make the matter perfectly right in the Bill, but he was afraid that if in this place it were laid down that there was to be no compensation in the event of a breach of undertaking, it would be argued afterwards on the construction of the section that the words "ill-conducted" were not as wide as at first sight they seemed to be. He really thought that to put in the words proposed would be to weaken the significance of the term "ill-conducted."


said he understood that they were agreed as regarded the principle. That was a matter for satisfaction. The Solicitor-General appeared to be afraid of the familiar rule in law that the specification of particular instances would weaken the effect of general words. He did not agree. For instance, the opening of a bar where an undertaking was given that it would not be opened would be extremely bad conduct; but would it mean that the premises were ill-conducted? He would suggest that the Amendment be accepted now, subject to further consideration on Report.


said he had the greatest possible regard for the opinion of the hon. and learned Gentleman; but he could not accept the words of the particular Amendment. He would, however, undertake to bring up words which would carry out the object to the fullest extent. He himself would prefer the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield.

MR. MOULTON (Cornwall, Launceston)

said he thought the Amendment of the hon. Member for Sheffield would not meet the case. There were public-houses in the neighbourhood of the London markets that opened at very early hours. Such opening might be a breach of an undertaking; but would it mean that the house was ill-conducted?


said he would accept the suggestion of the Solicitor - General and withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.


moved to insert words excepting county boroughs from the scope of the clause, in order to call attention to the anomalous jurisdiction of county boroughs under this section. There was no doubt a great anomaly was created by the section. Whilst the full body of justices were to be competent under this Bill to deal with the question of structural fitness of the building, the conduct of the applicant, his fitness, and so forth, they would not be competent to deal with the question whether the house was required or not. Then there already existed a statutory committee, so that there would be under the Bill a full body of justices and a new statutory committee and the existing licensing committee of seven members. The licensing justices would not view that with any satisfaction at all. If there were to be an alteration it ought to be in the direction of giving the committee in the first instance the consideration of the matter, and afterwards refer it to the full body of the justices. He hoped the Solicitor-Genera would give him an assurance that the anomalies which undoubtedly the section created would be removed.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 9, after the words last inserted, to insert the words 'except in county boroughs.'"—(Sir James Woodhouse.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."


said the Amendment was in the wrong place. Its proper place was in Clause 7. There was, however, a great deal in what the hon. Baronet had said, that there should be an appeal to the whole body of the magistrates; and he would undertake to have the matter considered, and some Amendment put down to meet his wishes.

MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR (Liverpool, East Toxteth)

asked if that would mean retaining the Recorder as chairman.


said it was intended to move an Amendment to omit the Recorder as chairman.

And, it being Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow.